Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Since it was mentioned, Rosalina can't guarantee anything out of dthrow, even at low percents. Dthrow > fair in particular looks reliable but you can always airdodge out of it.

I've had issues with uthrow > utilt combos against training dummies. It seems some characters just get bopped by Luma's weak hit without getting hit into Rosalina's halo? Which is bad for her because the halo is where the damage is.

I think it depends on who you're using as a training dummy. I think kirby and Jigglypuff it doesn't really work on...if it does it's only super low percents.

 

[DanGR]

Yeah she doesn't get as much as those guys from grabs. She's definitely not going to get a kill off a grab though. Without a really good read.

@ DanGR you sure uthrow to utilt doesn't work? How would you DI uthrow? I've had people jump oht of jabs b4. I think you can get usmash if they try to double jump away.

Away. Zero seems to be able to do it correctly/consistently. And no you can't upthrow->upsmash If they jump out.

 

[Nobie]

Kirby and Yoshi might be considered opposites. Kirby has immense trouble getting in due to short reach and slow movement, but has tons of KO moves and great frame data. Yoshi is top tier in terms of mobility and maneuverability but has to deal with having a harder time killing, and has punishable moves.

The main thing they have in common is mostly not so great specials.

As an aside, FG Yoshi is a nightmare to fight because it's almost impossible to punish the landing lag off of fair. You basically have to exploit the lack of disjoint and not all characters can do that effectively.

 

[Trifroze]

I think so many characters in this game have such amazing grab follow ups that people are underestimating how good grabs themselves are even for characters who don't get combos or kills off of them provided they have a decent grab. It punishes your opponent for shielding and literally throws them out of neutral. I think throws that do 12-13% damage are amazing by themselves, they're essentially the equivalent of one 6% setup dthrow and one 6-7% aerial move. I'm not aware if there are any characters who have a fast grab with nice range, a throw that does 12% or more and no combo or kill throws though, but I haven't really gone through characters looking for this either. Regardless, having a good grab is often more important than having follow-ups out of your grab even if they're amazing.

Related to the subject: someone asked how good ZSS would be with a normal grab, I'd say at least the best in the game and maybe a tier above Sheik and others (Sheik definitely shouldn't be in a tier of her own at least yet). Anyway, ZSS would literally be Falcon with pre-patch Diddy / DK level follow ups and a top tier recovery. I would possibly be willing to trade ZSS' grab follow ups for a good grab though, as the pressure you have to deal with for having a tether grab is sometimes pretty tough. Offensively it's still a decent grab because you have setups into it and a good dash grab, but defensively it's terrible.

 

[Jehtt]

I'm not aware if there are any characters who have a fast grab with nice range, a throw that does 12% or more and no combo or kill throws though, but I haven't really gone through characters looking for this either.

Mega Man is close. His standing/dash/pivot grab are frame 6/8/9. His dash grab has nice range and works well out of empty hop mixups, since he's jumping around a lot with lemons anyway. His backthrow does 11 damage and while it is a kill throw at high percents, it won't kill until like 130 or 140 unless you're at the very very edge. His pummel does 3 damage per hit and the leaf shield can tack on even more damage for grabs.
His d-throw does have follow ups but only at low percents.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the item version of the Metal Blades confirms into grab all the way up to about 100 percent, depending on the character. The special version can also combo into it but only if you're moving in the air while doing it.

 

[Asdioh]

Bowser Jr's 12% bthrow, combined with a couple pummels, and potential extra damage from the Mechakoopa blowing up as he throws you through it, is pretty amazing damage output.. he's the type of "no kill or combo throws" character you're looking for that still gets good damage and positioning off throws!

 

[Spinosaurus]

Bowser Jr's 12% bthrow, combined with a couple pummels, and potential extra damage from the Mechakoopa blowing up as he throws you through it, is pretty amazing damage output.. he's the type of "no kill or combo throws" character you're looking for that still gets good damage and positioning off throws!

But he's also held back by having a pretty awful grab.

 

[Asdioh]

Hey at least it's... disjointed, with pretty good range? I think? And uh... due to its slow speed, it actually helps beat spotdodges? Maybe?
(I didn't know it was frame 12 wtf)

 

[Zionaze]

What if there was a grab that came out on f3 and had barely any lag but had like no range watsoever?

 

[Funkermonster]

ESAM gives his opinion here on the 10 (or 11) worst characters in the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWXoyCl-XJg

I was all:

How about you?

 

[meleebrawler]

I think so many characters in this game have such amazing grab follow ups that people are underestimating how good grabs themselves are even for characters who don't get combos or kills off of them provided they have a decent grab. It punishes your opponent for shielding and literally throws them out of neutral. I think throws that do 12-13% damage are amazing by themselves, they're essentially the equivalent of one 6% setup dthrow and one 6-7% aerial move. I'm not aware if there are any characters who have a fast grab with nice range, a throw that does 12% or more and no combo or kill throws though, but I haven't really gone through characters looking for this either. Regardless, having a good grab is often more important than having follow-ups out of your grab even if they're amazing.

When the opponent isn't at killing percentages, this is basically what Mewtwo does with his grab game, more specifically fthrow.
Tied with others for highest damaging throw in the game and basically gives him full stage control whenever he uses it.
His grab is short ranged of course, partially due to the fact Confusion exists, but it's not laggier than the average grab.

I honestly can't think of a 'normal' (barehanded) grab that isn't significantly slower or faster on startup than most, though Little Mac's, Ganondorf's and Robin's do have little range and significant endlag.

Other characters that fit into the 'good grab with positional throws' are Bowser (particularly the pivot), Ryu (bthrow being one of the throws tied with Mewtwo's fthrow with a great pummel on top) and Fox (mainly due to his speed).

 

[PK Gaming]

I think so many characters in this game have such amazing grab follow ups that people are underestimating how good grabs themselves are even for characters who don't get combos or kills off of them provided they have a decent grab. It punishes your opponent for shielding and literally throws them out of neutral. I think throws that do 12-13% damage are amazing by themselves, they're essentially the equivalent of one 6% setup dthrow and one 6-7% aerial move. I'm not aware if there are any characters who have a fast grab with nice range, a throw that does 12% or more and no combo or kill throws though, but I haven't really gone through characters looking for this either. Regardless, having a good grab is often more important than having follow-ups out of your grab even if they're amazing.

The development team must have felt the same way, given how a few characters were recently tweaked. Robin, DK, Ike, etc... all of them got throw combos, Roy came out with throw combos from the beginning... it's an interesting trend.

 

[Trifroze]

Other characters that fit into the 'good grab with positional throws' are Bowser (particularly the pivot), Ryu (bthrow being one of the throws tied with Mewtwo's fthrow with a great pummel on top) and Fox (mainly due to his speed).

Bowser has two kill throws though, otherwise he fits the picture. Also why do Marth's throws still do like 4% each...?

 

[HFlash]

Bowser has two kill throws though, otherwise he fits the picture. Also why do Marth's throws still do like 4% each...?

PTSD from Marth's ******** grab game in Melee?

The development team must have felt the same way, given how a few characters were recently tweaked. Robin, DK, Ike, etc... all of them got throw combos, Roy came out with throw combos from the beginning... it's an interesting trend.

So there's hope for Marth?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Throw damage is directly related to a characters background. Pretty sure Sakurai said this in Brawl. So Marth is a master swordsman who has trained his body to use blades, not necessarily for hand to hand combat.

Contrast to Ryu who has trained in physical combat since he was about 6 years old, his throws do around 9% on average and his b-throw does 12%.

Pretty sure lore and physique played a role as well.

Its not good design because you have characters with combo throws that do over 7%, but it is what it is.

 

[HFlash]

Throw damage is directly related to a characters background. Pretty sure Sakurai said this in Brawl. So Marth is a master swordsman who has trained his body to use blades, not necessarily for hand to hand combat.

Contrast to Ryu who has trained in physical combat since he was about 6 years old, his throws do around 9% on average and his b-throw does 12%.

Pretty sure lore and physique played a role as well.

Its not good design because you have characters with combo throws that do over 7%, but it is what it is.

If Marth is so physically "weak," why/how can his throw do only 4% and his throws have enough knockback that you can (almost literally) never combo a follow up? That makes neither gameplay sense or logical sense.

 

[Rhus]

ESAM gives his opinion here on the 10 (or 11) worst characters in the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWXoyCl-XJg

I was all:

How about you?

"Shadow Ball is really bad"

What? If we're going to talk about redeeming things about Mewtwo, let's talk Shadow Ball.

 

[Pyr]

If Marth is so physically "weak," why/how can his throw do only 4% and his throws have enough knockback that you can (almost literally) never combo a follow up? That makes neither gameplay sense or logical sense.

Prob get's an anime moment for 1 frame. You know when some weak ass hit from the main character strikes the over confident baddie? Well, it doesn't do much damage, but then you get 10 seconds of powering up (multiply by the episode of DBZ you're on if you're in that universe), which sends the baddie flying away. Smash just can't do the math in that single frame, since it has to combine 10 seconds into a single frame, so we only get the result.

Or it could be a meh design choice that is (hopefully) fixed in the future in some way.

 

[Blobface]

Random question, what's the most damaging throw in the game? I know Ganon's F-throw is 13% (13.65 fresh), but I remember there being one throw that beat it in terms of damage.

 

[Vipermoon]

If Marth is so physically "weak," why/how can his throw do only 4% and his throws have enough knockback that you can (almost literally) never combo a follow up? That makes neither gameplay sense or logical sense.

A lot of things don't make sense but EL was right. Despite his throw damage otherwise making absolutely no sense, it is in his design theory.

 

[Ffamran]

Anyone bothered by Captain Falcon's Up Smash disjoint: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMOeS5F6sfQ? Like his rapid jab finisher disjoint it and his Side Smash disjoints should be removed. Now, hear me out before you start complaining about how the Capt. is getting nerfed too much.

The disjoint should be removed, but something else should be given to compensate. Right now, it's a two-hit move; first hit frame 22 move that does 6% at the "start" and 11% when he's kicking above his head and the second hit is frame 28 does 13% and apparently 12%, but I don't know where. Usually, you'll get the 6% and 13% for 19%. Best case scenario is if you manage to hit the 11% with the 13% to get 24% and worst case is you hit with the 11% or 13% and get little knockback, especially with the 11% which has some weighted knockback. Also, you can't act until frame 52. Ganondorf, the semi-clone, has a frame 21-26 Up Smash that does 21% or 24% tippered and he gets to act at frame 42. Yeah, Ganondorf? The "slower, stronger Captain Falcon" actually has a faster and safer Up Smash that's also more consistent.

It's a shame really since Captain Falcon's Up Smash is animated beautifully, but it's just slow, slower than Ganondorf while being more committal and inconsistent, and the Capt. has many other options than Up Smash. So, what do we do? One: remove the disjoint and in return do one or even two of these things: partial invincibility on his legs or speed up his Up Smash. Partial invincibility means that Captain Falcon will have a really safe anti-air. Land trap with Uair to Up Smash and you cannot challenge it all. Speeding it up might scare people, but remember that Captain Falcon like Sonic are really fast on the ground, but their moves are kind of average-speed to make them less oppressive. Strong, fast-moving, but average hit speed to stop Sonic and Captain Falcon having Fox, Sheik, Mario, or Luigi-levels of hit speed while having much stronger and moving much faster than any of them. So, what speed? How about frame 16? Pretty fast, but still somewhat react-able. In comparison, Wolf's two-hit Up Smash was frame 13 and did 6% + 12% for a total of 18%, but Wolf moved on the ground much slower than Captain Falcon. Hell, in comparison, Falco's is frame 8 and does 4% + 12% for 16%, but like Wolf, he moves much slower than Captain Falcon. Wolf and Falco's knockback are also lower than Captain Falcon's Up Smash and they only do constant damage while the Capt. can do 19% to 24%. If need be, it could be frame 16 with reduced damage since some people might find a frame 16 move capable of doing 19% to 24% a little absurd. Then again... Fox with his frame 8, 16% Up Smash of doom. Precision's required, yes, but Fox players can set that monster up like nobody's business.

Side Smash should get a similar treatment of being sped up while removing the disjoint. It's frame 19-22 right now. Removing the disjoint does hurt Captain Falcon even though he leans into his weird elbow thrust. It kind of makes "sense" for Ganondorf to have a disjoint because of magic, but Captain Falcon? It's like trying to explain his rapid jab disjoint and only being able to say the Capt. punches so hard he breaks the sound barrier or trying to explain any of his Falcon moves that are wreathed in fire. Anyway, how about frame 15-18? Also, what hurts Captain Falcon and players even more... He had a perfectly good Side Smash in 64 that could justify the range. It also sounded much cooler than his current Side Smash; 64's was "YEEEEEAH" instead of the current "TOWAH". Hopefully, Smash 5 Captain Falcon has his 64 Side Smash so Ganondorf can keep "a will be his own Side Smash" and so it can justify the range.

Also, maybe something should be done to his Down Smash as well... It's 4 frames slower than Ganondorf's while doing less damage. Even Ike has a faster Down Smash than Captain Falcon's; it's faster by 6 frames! Maybe make it frame 14 like Sonic's and maybe reduce the damage if necessary. I just find it weird how Captain Falcon's Smashes are that slow compared to his other moves and in some cases, "stupid" things like disjoints added on are just poor compensation when there could have been something else to refine what Captain Falcon's Smashes do. Right now, Side Smash is probably his best Smash followed by Down Smash for roll punishing. Up Smash is kind of there and I remember a study into his jump-canceled Up Smash as it was stronger and safer than his Raptor Boost, but compared to his jab, Dtilt, Nair, Uair, Bair, and even Fair, Dair, and Falcon Kick, Captain Falcon has many other options that are less of a hassle to use. So, let's refine the Capt. and other characters. I could also talk about how Ganondorf's jab should be a two-hit move so the 4% sour-spot can be reincorporated instead of being a stupid hitbox that kind of makes Ganondorf's jab there.

Also, someone should have 64 Captain Falcon's Up Smash. Brawl to Smash 4 Wolf dash attack change? Smash 5 Falco with a different dash attack?

If Marth is so physically "weak," why/how can his throw do only 4% and his throws have enough knockback that you can (almost literally) never combo a follow up? That makes neither gameplay sense or logical sense.

It's also the animation. Do you think someone flinging you like that does much damage? Compared to what Bowser, Captain Falcon, ZSS, Zelda, and Ness do to you, it's probably not that painful (until you land hard on the ground). I mean, if someone had Nightmare's Jade Crusher or Kazuya's Ultimate Punches, then they would be doing a lot of damage and you'd be questioning if those violent moves should even be in this game. And yeah, video game logic. Jigglypuff's throws shouldn't be doing 10% each, but they do.

Random question, what's the most damaging throw in the game? I know Ganon's F-throw is 13% (13.65 fresh), but I remember there being one throw that beat it in terms of damage.

Shulk? Buster Art with B-throw or F-throw might do more than 14%. Normally, B-throw does 12% while F-throw does 11%.

 

[Blobface]

It's funny you bring up Ganondorf because if there's any character with wacky disjoints it's Ganon. People don't complain just because the attack trails mark out where the hitboxes are pretty clearly, but without the attack effects, Ganondorf is barely even hitting you on some attacks.

Worst offenders being Dash Attack, U-smash, D-tilt, and F-smash. U-smash, his foot barely even travels through the hitbox area on U-smash (it shows a curved arc but he basically shoves his foot straight up), and disjoint aside, I'm pretty confident F-smash has a hitbox out when Ganondorf isn't even moving. And it's the same power all the way through.

A lot of smashes are disjointed (even barehanded fighters) because well, they're supposed to beat stuff. It doesn't make "sense" sure, but neither does launch velocity correlating with physical injury.

 

[Seagull Joe]

New tier list opinion:

 

[Ffamran]

It's funny you bring up Ganondorf because if there's any character with wacky disjoints it's Ganon. People don't complain just because the attack trails mark out where the hitboxes are pretty clearly, but without the attack effects, Ganondorf is barely even hitting you on some attacks.

Worst offenders being Dash Attack, U-smash, D-tilt, and F-smash. U-smash, his foot barely even travels through the hitbox area on U-smash (it shows a curved arc but he basically shoves his foot straight up), and disjoint aside, I'm pretty confident F-smash has a hitbox out when Ganondorf isn't even moving. And it's the same power all the way through.

A lot of smashes are disjointed (even barehanded fighters) because well, they're supposed to beat stuff. It doesn't make "sense" sure, but neither does launch velocity correlating with physical injury.

It's also the justification of disjoints. Captain Falcon's rapid jab finisher disjoint - it still has some - makes sense from a stand point for fighting against multiple opponents. Yes, he does move forward, but there's a point where if it only had his fist's range, it wouldn't be good when he ends and he only hits 1 person. Now, the original one where his disjoint hits even further, that's not really okay. The other thing is that Captain Falcon already had a perfectly good Side Smash that was needlessly changed from 64 to Melee. Ganondorf could have had 2 unique moves in Melee: a Side Smash and Fair, but nope, just Fair. Why it was changed? I don't know. There was nothing wrong with it; nobody else had the move like how he and Samus shared Down Smashes and it even had more range than his current one or could justify the range of his Side Smash.

Fox's Side Smash and Fair had to change because they were the same move and combined with his Nair and dash attack, he had 2 pairs of moves that were just land and aerial versions. At the same time, did they have to change his Side Smash to be his current wheel kick? I don't know, but Diddy ended up getting Fox's old Fair, so at least something from 64 was kept. Fox's Utilt that changed from 64 to Melee? Eh, that's up to the developers and funny enough, Falco or Fox could have kept that as their Utilt and one of them would have kept the scorpion kick. The closest things we have to that Utilt would be Ganondorf's Up Smash and Wolf's Utilt.

When you justify some of the disjoints by the trails or whatever, people would be more accepting of them. I mean, you could just say dark magic is why Ganondorf's Dark Dive and Side Smash have disjoints. Captain Falcon's Up Smash doesn't even show the disjoint, so people assume it's just hitting above him. Side Smash doesn't have a noticeable trail and it's like another forearm's length while his rapid jab finisher was about another arm's length. Some moves need some disjoint like apparently, Falco's Down Smash has some disjoint, but he's doing the splits and you don't exactly get range with a move like that. Now, if he did something like this: http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters2/iori-cv-chk.gif, and it had a disjoint, people would be ******. In Iori's case, he moves slightly forward while shooting his legs forward. If that had a disjoint, it would have ridiculous range which it already does, but is compensated by a ton of end lag. Funny enough, it has the same startup as Falco's Down Smash. Falco's Dtilt disjoint isn't that large, but it's still there. Fair's landing disjoint? That just seems weird especially since there's a noticeable gap between where Falco's body is and where the hitbox ends.

To sum this up, slight disjoints are okay. So, if Captain Falcon does his rapid jab finisher and it has about a fist's length of disjoint, then that's okay, but when he does an Up Smash and there's this weird, invisible disjoint, then that's not okay. His Side Smash in 64 has a disjoint and it looks fine, but Snake or Kirby's Utilt disjoint? No. The other thing is why make a different move that was fine and now you end up having to give a disjoint to it? If Captain Falcon kept his 64 Side Smash, the range he has now for Side Smash would be perfectly fine. Now, it's kind of okay, but kind of not okay. When people see him thrust his elbow, they expect the elbow to only hit them. They stand a little ways out, but wait! They get hit and die. Okay...

 

[Yikarur]

Any tier list with Luigi in Top8 is not up-to-date.
And I'm pretty sure Diddy is Top5, because he has still his amazing frame data and he is one of the safest and hard punishing characters in the game.

 

[HFlash]

New tier list opinion:

Ok, so I agree with alot that is here, but the biggest thing that I can point out is the difference between Marth and Lucina. Yea, at a high level, you can get more out of Marth than Lucina if you space tippers over 50% of the time. However, there are some advantages for Lucina over Marth, namely jab to fsmash doesn't consistently tip, so Lucina makes much more use of that staple kill option. So this begs the question: does the benefits of Marth over Lucina really merit the difference of 3 tiers?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Any tier list with Luigi in Top8 is not up-to-date.
And I'm pretty sure Diddy is Top5, because he has still his amazing frame data and he is one of the safest and hard punishing characters in the game.

I still have Luigi in my top 8.

 

[Shaya]

Any tier list with Luigi in Top8 is not up-to-date.
And I'm pretty sure Diddy is Top5, because he has still his amazing frame data and he is one of the safest and hard punishing characters in the game.

Top level Western players are very very very out of date then.

 

[Apeirohaon]

Any tier list with Luigi in Top8 is not up-to-date.

I don't think it's correct to say that. I feel like luigi's placement on a tier list will vary greatly depending on how that person ranks characters. If it's by solo-mainability then I wouldn't put him in top 5 but as one half of a dual main combo I feel like he's pretty good. And there's also the simple fact that zero, esam, and I think nairo all consider luigi top 5 right now

 

[NachoOfCheese]

New tier list opinion:

Is it just me or is this thing on-point?

 

[Pyr]

Never really seen Lucario as B, but I agree with most everything else in it. What makes him that high?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Seagull's list is pretty good. Personally, I would swap Lucina and Shulk, as well as move Bowser a tad bit lower, but that's just my opinion.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh c'mon guys, Lucina isn't THAT bad.
She's just very basic and has virtually no combos, but her Jab>Fsmash setups are real (and scary), her OOS game is strong, and unlike Marth, she can apply real pressure (he depends on tipper so much that he usually pass on pressure opportunities to adjust his spacing).

I think people tend to underestimate her (relative overall) safety, how she can play to outrange opponents, and how Marth's tipper can be effectively avoided by some characters to trade with non-tipper hitboxes, and in those matchups, Lucina is better.

She's still bad, but not in the same tier as Zelda.

 

[Asdioh]

Top level Western players are very very very out of date then.

But.. what do you mean exactly? Does this mean Luigi is definitely top 8, or Diddy is definitely not top 5, or what? Pls no vague one-liners

Also this thread was just recently talking about how ROB "wasn't viable" but nobody's saying anything about ROB being above Diddy, Pit, Villager, Wario, and Meat Night on this list

Also Kirby is way too high for how hard people have been trashing him lately

 

[Blobface]

Eh, C-tier and below gets murky (like every personal tier list), but above that it looks solid.

 

[|RK|]

New tier list opinion:

Why is Ganon so low? Behind Samus even?

 

[Vipermoon]

Ok, so I agree with alot that is here, but the biggest thing that I can point out is the difference between Marth and Lucina. Yea, at a high level, you can get more out of Marth than Lucina if you space tippers over 50% of the time. However, there are some advantages for Lucina over Marth, namely jab to fsmash doesn't consistently tip, so Lucina makes much more use of that staple kill option. So this begs the question: does the benefits of Marth over Lucina really merit the difference of 3 tiers?

THAT is not something Lucina has over Marth. Marth's jab is able to do more knockback (hitstun) at lower percents and the tipper gets set-up often enough. If they aren't at tipper range anyway and no Fsmash will kill you might as well go for Utilt juggles or Ftilt anyway because they're faster. Or idk...jab 2 or dancing blade.

We have talked about this before and we considered jab as a plus for Marth and now that we found out Marth is safer on shield at the tipper well...

 

[TTTTTsd]

New tier list opinion:

Yeah I agree with pretty much everything on here except like, Falco (who I think would be in C, he really just lacks good shield options, FIX THE JAB SAKURAI), Doc (like 3-4 spaces higher, maybe. Intuition speaking but IDK) and that's....about it really.

Seems pretty solid and vindictive of the meta.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Also this thread was just recently talking about how ROB "wasn't viable" but nobody's saying anything about ROB being above Diddy, Pit, Villager, Wario, and Meat Night on this list

Thank you, I was just about to mention that.
11th is way too generous for R.O.B., mostly because he gets completely and utterly bodied by the vast majority of high tier. I really don't see why everyone seems to be putting him in top 12 since he's complete and utter combo food. Where's he gonna be next, top 8? Closer to 20-22 would be a lot more realistic IMO.
Also, in no universe do Shulk or Lucas belong in E tier, especially the latter. I eagerly await the day someone takes these two to a tournament and starts wrecking house with them. Their potential really deserves to be seen.
I suppose I can at least respect the rest of the list (finally, somebody with the balls to put Olimar as mid-tier!), even if I don't agree with it.
Oh wait, Roy's below Marth. Yeah, that should literally never happen.

 

[HFlash]

THAT is not something Lucina has over Marth. Marth's jab is able to do more knockback (hitstun) at lower percents and the tipper gets set-up often enough. If they aren't at tipper range anyway and no Fsmash will kill you might as well go for Utilt juggles or Ftilt anyway because they're faster. Or idk...jab 2 or dancing blade.

We have talked about this before and we considered jab as a plus for Marth and now that we found out Marth is safer on shield at the tipper well...

I never said that Lucina's jab was better than Marth's. All that I was saying was that for Lucina, jab to fsmash will always get maximum damage where as this isn't the case for Marth. Irregardless, that doesn't change the fact that if Marth is C tier, Lucina for the sake of all her similarities with Marth, should be at the least within a tier of him.