Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Pazx]

Will have to try playing while listening to the gamepad but I can't really imagine it helping all that much. I guess this comes with all the benefits of music drowning out crowd noise too, though.

Really? were these tier lists made by top players?

Yes, actually. I had Dabuz in mind when I wrote that, as he has neither Rosalina nor Luigi in the top 5. Abadango placed Luigi 20th in his most recent tier list. ESAM puts both characters in the top five, but his 5th placement of Rosalina is suspect to me when both ZSS (very rarely absent from the top 3, Dabuz, Zero and Abadango all put her in second. Pikachu's matchups may affect bias here) and Sonic are completely absent from the top seven. There are plenty of not-quite-top players who would place Luigi in particular outside the top 5, the closest thing to a general consensus is that Luigi struggles against certain characters too much and has such a significant lack of results that he probably can't be top 5 in a tier list. Regardless, the point is that you can't say for certain that these two characters in particular are top 5, and the way you did it was a little standoffish to begin with.

 

[Nysyr]

Also food for thought, it takes less time for audio information to travel to your brain than for visual information.
Here's a site that let's you test your reaction time to audio cues: http://cognitivefun.net/test/16
You'll average much quicker response times here than on the humanbenchmark (visual) website.

Turn up that game volume!

Wow you weren't kidding. With my first try I got almost half my best visual one (although I think this monitor I have is like 20-30ms delay). Best was 80ms I think.

 

[Shaya]

I'm a very audible reacting player as well. Large tournaments in the US on monitors without sound really sucked for me personally.
Japanese players apparently brought mini speakers, and more players are starting to bring headphones, but gamepads aren't reliable. It's a big issue in my opinion.
It's probably been mildly alleviated since then but you can still go into a tournament and be called to play a set without any sound; it's a downer.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm a very audible reacting player as well. Large tournaments in the US on monitors without sound really sucked for me personally.
Japanese players apparently brought mini speakers, and more players are starting to bring headphones, but gamepads aren't reliable. It's a big issue in my opinion.
It's probably been mildly alleviated since then but you can still go into a tournament and be called to play a set without any sound; it's a downer.

I just turn the volume down on my TV and try and play that way. It's not as though you're going to have the same conditions at a tournament that you do in your crib. So I don't expect to be able to hear the TV when I go to a tournament.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Link is an extremely competent and underrated character. The only thing wrong with him is that other characters are just better than him but he's by no means bad.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I think Link is an extremely competent and underrated character. The only thing wrong with him is that other characters are just better than him but he's by no means bad.

Smash 4 in a nutshell. People say this about everyone.

 

[warionumbah2]

lol. Chill dudes. Leave the sexy space bounty hunter alone

I think Captain Falcon is fine as he is, he doesn't need any more -1% nerfs on anymore of his moves. The uair damage nerf wasn't that huge but bair is noticeable, now requires 2 more to kill unlike pre patch where it obliterated you.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Unfortunately a lot of tournaments are done on monitors that have pitiful sound, especially when in a room with lots of other monitors/other people playing. You'll be able to hear sounds that stick out like Sonic's spinny moves, or Kirby getting hit () but most everything else will be hard to hear. I guess that's where headphones for the gamepad come in handy, huh? ...but only for one player :/

This fact is part of the reason the whole music discussion meant nothing to me, since I could never hear it in tournaments anyway!

So, practicing with no sound could actually help you in tournaments... unless you actually happen to be able to hear the TV at the tournaments, in which case it's better to practice with sound... hm.

Reminder to use audio splitters to connect two headphones. It's what I plan to invest in for our monthlies.
For every setup that is.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Smash 4 in a nutshell. People say this about everyone.

Who is people? I don't know anybody by that name and I don't see why I should listen to him or her.

 

[Jabejazz]

Because bad is a relative term.

If Zelda was the only character in the game, she couldn't be labeled as bad since there are no better options. It's all semantics at this point, but "He's good but other characters are so much better than him" still means he's bad.

Also holy **** you guys still fell for the "Kirby is top tier" trolls a few pages ago.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Because bad is a relative term.

If Zelda was the only character in the game, she couldn't be labeled as bad since there are no better options. It's all semantics at this point, but "He's good but other characters are so much better than him" still means he's bad.

Also holy **** you guys still fell for the "Kirby is top tier" trolls a few pages ago.

Who said he was top tier?

 

[TriTails]

I think Captain Falcon is fine as he is, he doesn't need any more -1% nerfs on anymore of his moves. The uair damage nerf wasn't that huge but bair is noticeable, now requires 2 more to kill unlike pre patch where it obliterated you.

Uhhhh... You DO realize he was talking about ZSS right?

Otherwise, agreed. Sheik didn't recieved noticeable changes on the previous patch (She just have to slap you more. Not like she struggles in it anyway), but Falcon's B-air nerf kinda sucks considering it was probably his best KO option back then.

But the thing was ridiculous pre-patch...

 

[FullMoon]

Uhhhh... You DO realize he was talking about ZSS right?

That's the joke

 

[LightLV]

You...do know this was true in other games right? CF LUNGES forward with his f-smash.

Its not a matter of pure range. Its body positioning as well.

Well...i mean, that's true and all, but i'm talking absolute range on the attack. Where the hitbox ends. Marth's Fsmash will likely clash with Falcon's Fmash, so him extending his hurtbox isn't really changing anything. But that doesn't matter, because Falcon can actually hit marth from a distance where marth can't hit falcon. It's even worse when you consider Marth also extends his hurtbox forward with a wiffed Fsmash.

That particular instance doesn't really mean anything, but the point is, Marth's range is quite unimpressive on this game. Ike felt the same way until they fixed the hitboxes on his attacks. It's like they were more lenient with hitboxes on melee characters with limbs, instead of characters with actual swords and swing arcs.

I think Link is an extremely competent and underrated character. The only thing wrong with him is that other characters are just better than him but he's by no means bad.

I agree. He has some qualities about him that are pretty ridiculous.

 

[Shaya]

Didn't they only adjust Ike's hitboxes on his jab 1-2 and forward air? They didn't really give him more range or anything from what I gather...?

Marth's forward smash steps less forward in this game than Brawl.
But in reality, how you play Marth (properly) hinges on his sword length, less so how much he lunges forward/backward/etc.
Yeah, it means that falcon can fsmash through marth's whiffs "easily"... but that's... kinda necessary on a character who throws out moves that beats everything, solid rewards and becomes safer and safer by the patch (holy crap at the latest patch making all of his tipper aerials bar nair [which is 3] FIVE frames safer on shield).

Marth has to adjust how he spaces in most match ups as the more a character lunges forward in their moves (Falcon, DK, Ganon, etc) the more he should be thinking and spacing further away so he's always attacking limb extension (also max spacing shields is important). That's why he has pokes like neutral air and down tilt; long arm extensions while the rest of the body is not overly exposed.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

They nerfed Dtilt's range slightly when they buffed its angle. Fair I think had its hitbox worked on twice?

Jab I think was more timing than hitbox stuff, might have been a little bit in there. Dthrow had a hitbox adjustment last patch to make it work properly on G&W.

His Dash Attack actually got the same treatment Marth and Ryu did with lag modifiers as well. Apparently the tip of Dash Attack had the same issue. Now its 2 frames safer on shield! Same with Unyielding Blade but nobody uses that custom because it sucks.

 

[bc1910]

Link is good. Like, he can be bloody scary. His damage output is insane. I'm not convinced there are many characters who do what he does better than him actually, but they do exist which kinda hurts Link. As far as heavy campers who can defend themselves up close to, Olimar and ROB are probably scarier.

Because bad is a relative term.

If Zelda was the only character in the game, she couldn't be labeled as bad since there are no better options. It's all semantics at this point, but "He's good but other characters are so much better than him" still means he's bad.

Also holy **** you guys still fell for the "Kirby is top tier" trolls a few pages ago.

Right? I don't know why people bother to respond to anything the Kirby trolls say. This is far from the first time they've derailed the thread with their nonsense.

 

[RaptorTEC]

No, he kept doing grab punishes that could and should have been up smashes. He whiffed punishes really bad.

Those missed fsmashes of his could not have been punished with any of Yoshis smash attacks. I know from experience which is why I just punished with grab.

 

[Nabbitnator]

How do people feel about bowser jr as a character and how he does in general?

 

[Emblem Lord]

He's solid. Just very different and people dont like different. They want consistent easy victories or at least easier by comparison.

 

[Mettie7]

How do people feel about bowser jr as a character and how he does in general?

Tweek makes him look easy, but he's really workin' that character hard. He has to work for things other characters get for free.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Link is good. Like, he can be bloody scary. His damage output is insane. I'm not convinced there are many characters who do what he does better than him actually, but they do exist which kinda hurts Link. As far as heavy campers who can defend themselves up close to, Olimar and ROB are probably scarier.

ROB's and Olimar's camping game isn't as flexible as Link's, they don't have his KO potential and even their recovery isn't better. ROB also has a huge blind spot below him and has a bigger hurtbox than Link. Gyro can be quite BS but other than that I can't think of much that ROB is legitimately better at than Link.

But then again ROB really isn't good and people overrate him a bit.

 

[Kaladin]

ROB's and Olimar's camping game isn't as flexible as Link's, they don't have his KO potential and even their recovery isn't better. ROB also has a huge blind spot below him and has a bigger hurtbox than Link. Gyro can be quite BS but other than that I can't think of much that ROB is legitimately better at than Link.

But then again ROB really isn't good and people overrate him a bit.

Doesn't ROB have stupidly good foostool to gyro shenanigans?

 

[|RK|]

Kirby's definitely not top (or high) tier. But I don't think anyone said that. Emblem Lord was spot on in that when Kirby gets in, he tends to have good reward, but he really just can't get in.

With the improvements to Inhale, Kirby does relatively well against characters with projectiles as their standard special (or an improved mobility option like the Arts). But against characters with awful projectiles, projectiles in a different moveslot, or good approaches without projectiles, he does much more poorly.

Like... Sonic is a nightmare, Yoshi is a nightmare, Villager is a nightmare, and so on.

 

[Ze Diglett]

ROB's and Olimar's camping game isn't as flexible as Link's, they don't have his KO potential and even their recovery isn't better.

As much as I'm with you on the "stop overhyping R.O.B." thing, how is that last part true? To me, it isn't even a question, R.O.B. and Olimar have better recovery than Link. Sure, Link has a Zair and can situationally use bombs to assist recovery, but R.O.B. and Olimar both have top-tier vertical recoveries on their own and R.O.B. can use his Bair to assist his horizontal recovery as well. I guess Link's Up-B having a hitbox might make it safer, but that hardly matters when R.O.B. can act out of his Up-B anyway.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Doesn't ROB have stupidly good foostool to gyro shenanigans?

Does he?

Sounds pretty impractical. Footstooling your opponent with a character like ROB [who doesn't have great aerial mobility and doesn't want to be above his opponent] sounds hard enough and you also need to hold a gyro in your hands at the same time. I don't know how likely that is to ever happen.

As much as I'm with you on the "stop overhyping R.O.B." thing, how is that last part true? To me, it isn't even a question, R.O.B. and Olimar have better recovery than Link. Sure, Link has a Zair and can situationally use bombs to assist recovery, but R.O.B. and Olimar both have top-tier vertical recoveries on their own and R.O.B. can use his Bair to assist his horizontal recovery as well. I guess Link's Up-B having a hitbox might make it safer, but that hardly matters when R.O.B. can act out of his Up-B anyway.

ROB and Olimar are both entirely vulnerable while recovering with their upB. I think as the metagame advances this will become a big problem to them sooner or later. I mean Link's recovery is by no means great but at least he has a number of viable options that provide him with some sort of coverage. When Olimar is offstage he doesn't get to throw a bomb, a boomerang and then still get to decide whether he wants to use upB or his tether grab.

Edit: But you're probably right that ROB's recovery is actually a bit better.

 

[monzer]

ROB's and Olimar's camping game isn't as flexible as Link's, they don't have his KO potential and even their recovery isn't better. ROB also has a huge blind spot below him and has a bigger hurtbox than Link. Gyro can be quite BS but other than that I can't think of much that ROB is legitimately better at than Link.

But R.O.B and Olimar actually have combos, and They have options outside of thier camping.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Link has perfectly good damage output with big damage per hit and true grab combos in most situations. He also kills really early with his normals and oos options and has a passable kill throw at like 150%.

This gets pretty noticeable with his good weight. He's in a great spot right now compared to most projectile characters IMO. I love to see some more toon link though.

 

[meleebrawler]

Does he?

Sounds pretty impractical. Footstooling your opponent with a character like ROB [who doesn't have great aerial mobility and doesn't want to be above his opponent] sounds hard enough and you also need to hold a gyro in your hands at the same time. I don't know how likely that is to ever happen.



ROB and Olimar are both entirely vulnerable while recovering with their upB. I think as the metagame advances this will become a big problem to them sooner or later. I mean Link's recovery is by no means great but at least he has a number of viable options that provide him with some sort of coverage. When Olimar is offstage he doesn't get to throw a bomb, a boomerang and then still get to decide whether he wants to use upB or his tether grab.

Edit: But you're probably right that ROB's recovery is actually a bit better.

Winged Pikmin let him move really fast with a low number of pikmin, and carrying even one lets him use any of his aerials out of it (plus there's still nair even without any pikmin).

 

[Greward]

ROB and Olimar are both entirely vulnerable while recovering with their upB. I think as the metagame advances this will become a big problem to them sooner or later. I mean Link's recovery is by no means great but at least he has a number of viable options that provide him with some sort of coverage. When Olimar is offstage he doesn't get to throw a bomb, a boomerang and then still get to decide whether he wants to use upB or his tether grab.

ROB can protect himself while recovering with up air which has monstrous range and duration.
Olimar recovery is gimpable but with no pikmin he can go below the stage so it's something. and purple toss is pretty good as an anti gimp move. As long as you get pikmins off he can be very versatile when recoverying which is a plus.

ROB isn't heavily overrated. He has notable results all around the world. I've seen ROBs in japanese top8s and americans. He's probably in the mid or low part of the high tier but high tier regardless.
Besides gyro being super super good, his dthrow/upthrow up air can take games easily and deals a lot of damage for a combo throw, and while not super consistent his kill potential is gamechanging. He has a very good neutral, with lots of tools and gyro being super strong against grounded approach. While he's big he has some usable tools to land.

 

[Wintropy]

How do people feel about bowser jr as a character and how he does in general?

As stated, he's good but different. He plays his own game that you need to respect as a player and as an opponent. He's the kind of character you need to commit to to get results. Beyond Tweek, though, I don't know of any distinct Junior players - he's kinda existent in the distant aether right now, for better or for worse.

 

[Nabbitnator]

His trap game seem very interesting. Hopefully we can see more bowser jr's in the future. A character that plays by its own rules is very fun to watch develop over time.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Literally just tested what the realistic reaction time in Smash might be by putting a Ganondorf bot to attack in training mode and tried to react to whatever he did with shield. I averaged 14-17 (for the startup frame before your shield comes up), sometimes kinda dozed off and went to 18-20. Fastest ones were generally 12-13s which I got a few of, and I think only really godly/young players could hope pull that off consistently.

If you're super focused on avoiding something, have a nice reaction time and you're in an otherwise aware state you'll probably get your shield up around frame 15 consistently, but if you're thinking of anything or pressing buttons it can take you more like 18-20 or even slightly upwards of 20 sometimes.

A good reaction time to a strong impulse like flashing is like 170-200 milliseconds which would be 10-12 frames, but in Smash many animations start off really vague and some don't make any clear sounds either before the actual hitbox comes out so that may explain the extra frames.

Reacting to sparta kick tho:

Of course then you go online and the 15s become 30s and suddenly Link is the best character in the game.

EDIT: and to clarify I did this little test just out of curiosity towards all the discussion about moves you can avoid out of reaction, roll punishes out of reaction and things like that

The thing is reaction time can be a lot faster than that if youre expecting something ergo if your brain is pumped and in a flow state, I'm betting if we looked at a top player match reaction times would be quite a lot faster :O Same if you look at like a top level ping pong game or something.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

ROB's and Olimar's camping game isn't as flexible as Link's, they don't have his KO potential and even their recovery isn't better. ROB also has a huge blind spot below him and has a bigger hurtbox than Link. Gyro can be quite BS but other than that I can't think of much that ROB is legitimately better at than Link.

But then again ROB really isn't good and people overrate him a bit.

Rob has better frame data with a better grab game and a kill throw along with kill set ups. Rob is a zoner with a 3 frame jab and dtilt. This makes his cqc better than link's by a mile. Where Link falters up close rob has the frame data to compete with some of the faster character jabs.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Kirby's definitely not top (or high) tier. But I don't think anyone said that. Emblem Lord was spot on in that when Kirby gets in, he tends to have good reward, but he really just can't get in.

With the improvements to Inhale, Kirby does relatively well against characters with projectiles as their standard special (or an improved mobility option like the Arts). But against characters with awful projectiles, projectiles in a different moveslot, or good approaches without projectiles, he does much more poorly.

Like... Sonic is a nightmare, Yoshi is a nightmare, Villager is a nightmare, and so on.

From my perspective, I just don't have a lot of high hopes for Kirby.

Sure, people are going to main them, but people despise Kirby's bad mobility and are going to characters that have more mobility. Kirby has a bad recovery because he cannot move fast enough. It says a lot when a character has one flaw that utterly destroys them. That is not a good mark of a character in this meta at all, according to the masses.

Even worse is his character meta. People are (appropriately) dropping Kirby completely or to secondary or worse for characters that are better suited for the meta at hand. People are not learning more about Kirby because they realize that (to them) Kirby is not a good character suited for major play, so they go to someone better. I can only see "low tier heroes" or people who like the character playing Kirby at this moment, because he takes more work to use and does not yield the same amount of reward as easily/is more difficult to get that reward.

I'm still going to use him, but I am aware of the risks and the low expectations at hand because of it. Right now, at the very least, Kirby is unfavorable in the current meta.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Sooo... What does stop Yoshi from being Top Tier? Because I tried to shield Yoshi's attacks and it didn't worked at all. I also tried to not get grabbed and when I got grabbed. Surprise: Frame traps. Every single match in FG with a ****ing Yoshi ended in me losing. So what the hell is stopping this god damn character from being Top Tier? Yoshi's Jab is stupidly good. Nair is so damn god like in shield and Up Smash it's just amazing for killing. Are you guys really serious when you say Yoshi isn't top tier? He's a monster.

 

[|RK|]

From my perspective, I just don't have a lot of high hopes for Kirby.

Sure, people are going to main them, but people despise Kirby's bad mobility and are going to characters that have more mobility. Kirby has a bad recovery because he cannot move fast enough. It says a lot when a character has one flaw that utterly destroys them. That is not a good mark of a character in this meta at all, according to the masses.

Even worse is his character meta. People are (appropriately) dropping Kirby completely or to secondary or worse for characters that are better suited for the meta at hand. People are not learning more about Kirby because they realize that (to them) Kirby is not a good character suited for major play, so they go to someone better. I can only see "low tier heroes" or people who like the character playing Kirby at this moment, because he takes more work to use and does not yield the same amount of reward as easily/is more difficult to get that reward.

I'm still going to use him, but I am aware of the risks and the low expectations at hand because of it. Right now, at the very least, Kirby is unfavorable in the current meta.

Kirby doesn't have a "bad" recovery. Is it meh in a game of amazing recoveries? Sure. But his recovery isn't bad.

As for everything else... okay. People do what they want to do. Some people rate him higher, others rate him lower. It'd be nice to have a Tweek, but what can you do?

EDIT: And yes, he isn't solo viable.

 

[adom4]

Sooo... What does stop Yoshi from being Top Tier? Because I tried to shield Yoshi's attacks and it didn't worked at all. I also tried to not get grabbed and when I got grabbed. Surprise: Frame traps. Every single match in FG with a ****ing Yoshi ended in me losing. So what the hell is stopping this god damn character from being Top Tier? Yoshi's Jab is stupidly good. Nair is so damn god like in shield and Up Smash it's just amazing for killing. Are you guys really serious when you say Yoshi isn't top tier? He's a monster.

Killing.
Yoshi commits a ton just to get a kill, his lack of reliable setups hurts a lot too.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Killing.
Yoshi commits a ton just to get a kill, his lack of reliable setups hurts a lot too.

Fair is a decent move though.
Lots of disjoint, coupled with a superb mobility to stay super safe.
Fair kills, Fair sets up for Uair, or Usmash if you read a reaction.

 

[Zelder]

That is a lot of words to say that Kirby isn't as good as other characters.