Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

Wait, is Kirby above Marth and Roy?
Greninja's after DK?

Eh. Someone more qualified want to explain to me how this is so?

 

[hypersonicJD]

I really can't argue with Seagull's list on this one. Except for Lucas. Really? Lucas below Roy? I mean Lucas hasn't been having too many results. But that doesn't mean he isn't a good character. He really has potential and should be at least in the C Tier. B tier maximum (I imagine this his high tier). Now his grab reaches more so that way he doesn't so much trouble getting a grab. D-Tilt sets-up a grab, Z-air sets a grab and you can follow up with tons of stuff. Forward Smash is quicked than Ness's and he has pretty good follow-ups from Nair. As I said, he doesn't have results and he has been unexplored. But I really wouldn't put him in E tier. That is really low.

That is my only complain though. Everything else is pretty good.

 

[HFlash]

Wait, is Kirby above Marth and Roy?
Greninja's after DK?

Eh. Someone more qualified want to explain to me how this is so?

TBH, I think you have that presumption because Kirby has a bad MU vs Roy/Marth, that means that Kirby is lower tiered. The fact that Kirby goes even (or very close to it) vs the best character in the game is something he has over a big chunk of the cast. But I absolutely agree with DK. Having a kill confirm from a throw at 90% is pretty beast (no pun intended).

 

[teddystalin]

Also, in no universe do Shulk or Lucas belong in E tier, especially the latter. I eagerly await the day someone takes these two to a tournament and starts wrecking house with them. Their potential really deserves to be seen.

If 9B, Trela, and John Numbers couldn't take Shulk to a tournament and wreck house with them, no one is going to. A character defined by a gimmick ≠ a character with great potential.

I kind of agree with you on Lucas though, but I'm still not sure where he should go instead.

 

[Ze Diglett]

If 9B, Trela, and John Numbers couldn't take Shulk to a tournament and wreck house with them, no one is going to. A character defined by a gimmick ≠ a character with great potential.

I'm of the firm belief that the reason nobody's been performing with Shulk is because nobody has really tried. 9B is a start since he actually solo-mains Shulk (EDIT: nevermind, he moved on to Ryu anyway), but Shulk's still in the same boat as Bowjow and all of the Wave 2 DLC characters. No mains, no representation, despite their potential.

 

[DanGR]

TBH, I think you have that presumption because Kirby has a bad MU vs Roy/Marth, that means that Kirby is lower tiered. The fact that Kirby goes even (or very close to it) vs the best character in the game is something he has over a big chunk of the cast. But I absolutely agree with DK. Having a kill confirm from a throw at 90% is pretty beast (no pun intended).

Kirby doesn't go even with Sheik, or very close at all. Where are you getting this from?

 

[Apeirohaon]

I'm of the firm belief that the reason nobody's been performing with Shulk is because nobody has really tried. 9B is a start since he actually solo-mains Shulk (more than can be said for Numbers or Trela, who both have characters that they very often use over Shulk), but Shulk's still in the same boat as Bowjow. No mains, no representation, despite their potential.

Didn't he switch to Ryu? So solo-mained*

 

[Shaya]

But.. what do you mean exactly? Does this mean Luigi is definitely top 8, or Diddy is definitely not top 5, or what? Pls no vague one-liners

Also this thread was just recently talking about how ROB "wasn't viable" but nobody's saying anything about ROB being above Diddy, Pit, Villager, Wario, and Meat Night on this list

Also Kirby is way too high for how hard people have been trashing him lately

I mean that I struggle to find top-level players not putting luigi as a top 5-8 threat; *spoilers* but right now I have only 1 vote that hasn't put Luigi in top 6. Future/alternative metagames be damned, but right now Luigi is the cheese on top of the meta-pizza. Nearly every threat is checked by Luigi, so until the meta settles around that, he's better than everyone who isn't checking anything "reliably".

At least, from a relatively fair logical position.

 

[HFlash]

Kirby doesn't go even with Sheik, or very close at all. Where are you getting this from?

Umm, personal experience.... and this very website: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...0-jigglypuff-ryu-ness-and-meta-knight.400052/

 

[Deathcarter]

I'm of the firm belief that the reason nobody's been performing with Shulk is because nobody has really tried. 9B is a start since he actually solo-mains Shulk (more than can be said for Numbers or Trela, who both have characters that they very often use over Shulk), but Shulk's still in the same boat as Bowjow and all of the Wave 2 DLC characters. No mains, no representation, despite their potential.

The reason no top player picks or has stuck with Shulk is because he doesn't offer enough returns for all his complexity.

 

[|RK|]

TBH, I think you have that presumption because Kirby has a bad MU vs Roy/Marth, that means that Kirby is lower tiered. The fact that Kirby goes even (or very close to it) vs the best character in the game is something he has over a big chunk of the cast. But I absolutely agree with DK. Having a kill confirm from a throw at 90% is pretty beast (no pun intended).

Interesting. See, I've seen so many arguments for Marth as... what, low high tier(?) since his buffs, and Greninja as top 20. So this looks off to me.

@ DanGR : It's mostly theory-crafting w/ customs. But it doesn't seem like Kirby gets destroyed or is even as disadvantaged like other characters. That and people have opinions from playing the MU.

My friend plays Sheik, actually. When I play with him in person I can start saying things lol.

EDIT: Actually, we're always hearing from Kirby's, while the only Sheik we've heard from is ZeRo. Where are the Sheiks that have played the matchup?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Diddy struggles against common characters like Mario, Luigi, and Rosalina, while also having a very tough time against pikachu. Many diddys don't like the Sheik matchup either and sheiks generally say they win, although I don't think it's too bad personally. When (if?) people actually learn how to defend against and use peels his matchups will get worse.

I think seagull Joe's placement of Diddy is pretty good. He loses to enough tourney threats that I don't think he's really solo viable. I wouldn't succeed nearly as much as a Diddy main on the local circuit without the two characters I have to cover his bad matchups. He bodies most unpopular characters but there's a reason you don't see a lot of successful Diddys anymore.

 

[Jams.]

Thank you, I was just about to mention that.
11th is way too generous for R.O.B., mostly because he gets completely and utterly bodied by the vast majority of high tier. I really don't see why everyone seems to be putting him in top 12 since he's complete and utter combo food. Where's he gonna be next, top 8? Closer to 20-22 would be a lot more realistic IMO.
Also, in no universe do Shulk or Lucas belong in E tier, especially the latter. I eagerly await the day someone takes these two to a tournament and starts wrecking house with them. Their potential really deserves to be seen.
I suppose I can at least respect the rest of the list (finally, somebody with the balls to put Olimar as mid-tier!), even if I don't agree with it.
Oh wait, Roy's below Marth. Yeah, that should literally never happen.

ROB's top and high tier matchups aren't total trash. The common meta picks that invalidate him IMO are Sheik (though ROBs have won this MU at a high level) and ZSS (RIP). Everything else is winnable (-2 or better) except maybe Villager, but that character is very uncommon. I realize I just said ROB gets invalidated by the two best characters, but I don't believe he is top 15. It's just that his high tier MU spread isn't completely unwinnable.

Shulk has had a decent number of solid players try him (GNES in addition to those mentioned), and thus far they have only proven that Shulk is pretty bad. He really shouldn't be ranked well based on his supposed potential. Once people do something with him, then we can take a closer look.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Wait lucina can apply pressure better then marth?

 

[Gawain]

Anyone bothered by Captain Falcon's Up Smash disjoint: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMOeS5F6sfQ? Like his rapid jab finisher disjoint it and his Side Smash disjoints should be removed. Now, hear me out before you start complaining about how the Capt. is getting nerfed too much.

The disjoint should be removed, but something else should be given to compensate. Right now, it's a two-hit move; first hit frame 22 move that does 6% at the "start" and 11% when he's kicking above his head and the second hit is frame 28 does 13% and apparently 12%, but I don't know where. Usually, you'll get the 6% and 13% for 19%. Best case scenario is if you manage to hit the 11% with the 13% to get 24% and worst case is you hit with the 11% or 13% and get little knockback, especially with the 11% which has some weighted knockback. Also, you can't act until frame 52. Ganondorf, the semi-clone, has a frame 21-26 Up Smash that does 21% or 24% tippered and he gets to act at frame 42. Yeah, Ganondorf? The "slower, stronger Captain Falcon" actually has a faster and safer Up Smash that's also more consistent.

It's a shame really since Captain Falcon's Up Smash is animated beautifully, but it's just slow, slower than Ganondorf while being more committal and inconsistent, and the Capt. has many other options than Up Smash. So, what do we do? One: remove the disjoint and in return do one or even two of these things: partial invincibility on his legs or speed up his Up Smash. Partial invincibility means that Captain Falcon will have a really safe anti-air. Land trap with Uair to Up Smash and you cannot challenge it all. Speeding it up might scare people, but remember that Captain Falcon like Sonic are really fast on the ground, but their moves are kind of average-speed to make them less oppressive. Strong, fast-moving, but average hit speed to stop Sonic and Captain Falcon having Fox, Sheik, Mario, or Luigi-levels of hit speed while having much stronger and moving much faster than any of them. So, what speed? How about frame 16? Pretty fast, but still somewhat react-able. In comparison, Wolf's two-hit Up Smash was frame 13 and did 6% + 12% for a total of 18%, but Wolf moved on the ground much slower than Captain Falcon. Hell, in comparison, Falco's is frame 8 and does 4% + 12% for 16%, but like Wolf, he moves much slower than Captain Falcon. Wolf and Falco's knockback are also lower than Captain Falcon's Up Smash and they only do constant damage while the Capt. can do 19% to 24%. If need be, it could be frame 16 with reduced damage since some people might find a frame 16 move capable of doing 19% to 24% a little absurd. Then again... Fox with his frame 8, 16% Up Smash of doom. Precision's required, yes, but Fox players can set that monster up like nobody's business.

Side Smash should get a similar treatment of being sped up while removing the disjoint. It's frame 19-22 right now. Removing the disjoint does hurt Captain Falcon even though he leans into his weird elbow thrust. It kind of makes "sense" for Ganondorf to have a disjoint because of magic, but Captain Falcon? It's like trying to explain his rapid jab disjoint and only being able to say the Capt. punches so hard he breaks the sound barrier or trying to explain any of his Falcon moves that are wreathed in fire. Anyway, how about frame 15-18? Also, what hurts Captain Falcon and players even more... He had a perfectly good Side Smash in 64 that could justify the range. It also sounded much cooler than his current Side Smash; 64's was "YEEEEEAH" instead of the current "TOWAH". Hopefully, Smash 5 Captain Falcon has his 64 Side Smash so Ganondorf can keep "a will be his own Side Smash" and so it can justify the range.

Also, maybe something should be done to his Down Smash as well... It's 4 frames slower than Ganondorf's while doing less damage. Even Ike has a faster Down Smash than Captain Falcon's; it's faster by 6 frames! Maybe make it frame 14 like Sonic's and maybe reduce the damage if necessary. I just find it weird how Captain Falcon's Smashes are that slow compared to his other moves and in some cases, "stupid" things like disjoints added on are just poor compensation when there could have been something else to refine what Captain Falcon's Smashes do. Right now, Side Smash is probably his best Smash followed by Down Smash for roll punishing. Up Smash is kind of there and I remember a study into his jump-canceled Up Smash as it was stronger and safer than his Raptor Boost, but compared to his jab, Dtilt, Nair, Uair, Bair, and even Fair, Dair, and Falcon Kick, Captain Falcon has many other options that are less of a hassle to use. So, let's refine the Capt. and other characters. I could also talk about how Ganondorf's jab should be a two-hit move so the 4% sour-spot can be reincorporated instead of being a stupid hitbox that kind of makes Ganondorf's jab there.

Also, someone should have 64 Captain Falcon's Up Smash. Brawl to Smash 4 Wolf dash attack change? Smash 5 Falco with a different dash attack?


It's also the animation. Do you think someone flinging you like that does much damage? Compared to what Bowser, Captain Falcon, ZSS, Zelda, and Ness do to you, it's probably not that painful (until you land hard on the ground). I mean, if someone had Nightmare's Jade Crusher or Kazuya's Ultimate Punches, then they would be doing a lot of damage and you'd be questioning if those violent moves should even be in this game. And yeah, video game logic. Jigglypuff's throws shouldn't be doing 10% each, but they do.


Shulk? Buster Art with B-throw or F-throw might do more than 14%. Normally, B-throw does 12% while F-throw does 11%.

How about instead we just get rid of Captain Falcon's up smash and give him his sexy, amazing Smash 64 up smash that combos into everything. Someone else can have the triple kick. I think it'd be hilarious if two of Falcon's Smashes both used his elbow btw.

I think it's fair that Falcon's Smashes are more limited in use since most of the time he scores a kill with an aerial move. They're just not as integral to his gameplan. Though, you could argue that it's a little too much.

I would honestly be fine if they just left Captain alone for the rest of the game though, I have no issues with him: the only reason he isn't in top tier is because while he's great, the others just don't have as many weaknesses(aka, they're unbalanced). Falcon is the image of perfect balance in this game IMO. Just give the other top tiers some weaknesses and watch Falcon skyrocket.

All that being said, I think it would be the sickest thing if they buffed Falcon's Up B startup and grabbing range so you could do legit Smash 64 combos consistently. And then buff the knockback so you can kill like in Smash 64 too

 

[Ffamran]

How about instead we just get rid of Captain Falcon's up smash and give him his sexy, amazing Smash 64 up smash that combos into everything. Someone else can have the triple kick. I think it'd be hilarious if two of Falcon's Smashes both used his elbow btw.

I think it's fair that Falcon's Smashes are more limited in use since most of the time he scores a kill with an aerial move. They're just not as integral to his gameplan. Though, you could argue that it's a little too much.

I would honestly be fine if they just left Captain alone for the rest of the game though, I have no issues with him: the only reason he isn't in top tier is because while he's great, the others just don't have as many weaknesses(aka, they're unbalanced). Falcon is the image of perfect balance in this game IMO. Just give the other top tiers some weaknesses and watch Falcon skyrocket.

All that being said, I think it would be the sickest thing if they buffed Falcon's Up B startup and grabbing range so you could do legit Smash 64 combos consistently. And then buff the knockback so you can kill like in Smash 64 too

64 Captain Falcon's Up Smash looks like he's doing an uppercut with his fist before he hits with the elbow. Also, his current Up Smash is two hits - it's a double crescent kick. They're limited in use, yes, but they're like really limited in use. Ganondorf gets more mileage out of his Up Smash because of the low end lag and that anti-airing with it is less of a hassle when he can just time one hit. With Captain Falcon, you can end up hitting with just the first hit and deal some knockback instead of fully connecting it. It's more about refining his moves. I mean, Falco's Uair was fine. Yes, it was "slow" at frame 10, but the only issue for most people was the sour-spot. They could have just gotten rid of the sour-spot and be done with it. I don't remember if his Brawl Uair had a sour-spot. Still, they changed it. They also changed how his jab 1 worked, but in a subtle way. Fixing hitboxes and refining characters moves is what should happen.

 

[HFlash]

How about instead we just get rid of Captain Falcon's up smash and give him his sexy, amazing Smash 64 up smash that combos into everything. Someone else can have the triple kick. I think it'd be hilarious if two of Falcon's Smashes both used his elbow btw.

I think it's fair that Falcon's Smashes are more limited in use since most of the time he scores a kill with an aerial move. They're just not as integral to his gameplan. Though, you could argue that it's a little too much.

I would honestly be fine if they just left Captain alone for the rest of the game though, I have no issues with him: the only reason he isn't in top tier is because while he's great, the others just don't have as many weaknesses(aka, they're unbalanced). Falcon is the image of perfect balance in this game IMO. Just give the other top tiers some weaknesses and watch Falcon skyrocket.

All that being said, I think it would be the sickest thing if they buffed Falcon's Up B startup and grabbing range so you could do legit Smash 64 combos consistently. And then buff the knockback so you can kill like in Smash 64 too

Or also buff Falcon punch so that it could actually be used in a competitive match. Having Falcon punch used in competitive matches would be A GREAT thing for smash.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Umm, personal experience.... and this very website: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...0-jigglypuff-ryu-ness-and-meta-knight.400052/

don't listen to MU threads

but especially that one, it's cancer

 

[|RK|]

don't listen to MU threads

but especially that one, it's cancer

Wasn't trying to say anything, but I saw a post in there that put Kirby vs Luigi as even, and slightly in Kirby's favor. Not trying to shade - everyone's trying to contribute, which is great.

At the same time...

 

[HFlash]

don't listen to MU threads

but especially that one, it's cancer

Well, that is very encouraging.... especially from the main moderator on the kirby boards. Don't feel too bad, the Falcon boards are probably more carcinogenic. Mind giving a quick run down on why the shiek MU is bad for kirby? You guys seem to avoid a good number of stuff from shiek by crouching, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Well, that is very encouraging.... especially from the main moderator on the kirby boards. Don't feel too bad, the Falcon boards are probably more carcinogenic. Mind giving a quick run down on why the shiek MU is bad for kirby? You guys seem to avoid a good number of stuff from shiek by crouching, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I swear if I have to read crouching one more time...
But seriously, how much footage is out there that shows crouching solving anything against top level players?
I can't take it any more

 

[Shaya]

CROUCHING IS ANALOGOUS TO SHIELDING

MINOR ALTERATIONS to options and specifics otherwise, but it is a DEFENSIVE MECHANIC, no single DEFENSIVE MECHANIC makes a match up, unless holding shield in itself was effective enough already.
There is close to little effective difference to crouching than to shielding. Some character's potency of their crouch are better than others (negating certain moves being able to hit you), BUT SO DOES SHIELDING. Or if you're worried about the various special grabs there is rolling and spot dodging too.

Crouching is rarely, if ever, more effective than another defensive option chosen appropriately. It's less committing but really, not by much.

The only character with a scary crouch in this game is Sheik.
She has good range and frame data attacks out of it, while she can also throw out needles from it. Almost just like shielding, she can punish someone choosing incorrectly against her defensive motion. Oh, she can crawl too, which is good.
Kirby though... are you outside of down tilt range? Then it's useless and applies ZERO PRESSURE.
If you're game and watch you have dash attack. If you're WiiFit trainer you have projectile specials...

CROUCHING BY ITSELF DOES NOTHING, just like holding shield indefinitely does nothing.
YOUR OPTIONS OUT OF A CROUCH IS WHAT MATTERS. IF YOU'RE KIRBY YOU STILL DON'T HAVE ANY GOOD OPTIONS OUT OF IT.

</rant-perhaps-default-copy-and-paste-next-time-I-hear-the-word>

 

[bc1910]

Interesting. See, I've seen so many arguments for Marth as... what, low high tier(?) since his buffs, and Greninja as top 20. So this looks off to me.

It's the lack of representation. Greninja is still very underrated by players who perceive him as having bad results, which really just means he has few good national (US) placings and/or they don't bother looking at his results elsewhere (outside their region and nationals that is; Greninja's results are weak in some regional areas too). I understand since national results are the real money makers but there's a pretty small variety of characters who regularly make top 8 so it's hard to judge a whole list on that. Greninja's regional level results and national level results in other countries are above average. He has better results than plenty of characters who are usually ranked above him like the Pits (non-Nairo Pits do very little) but meh.

Until he starts pulling in results he'll keep hovering around the 20-27 mark in most of these "top player" tier lists. But in theory and judging by the results that DO exist, he's a threat and deserves a top 20 spot.

Oh not to mention the "worse version of Sheik" idea is still scarily common.

I don't mind him being underrated any more though, not while this game is still being patched. They've shown they're willing to buff him (in meaningful ways too) despite the 1.0.4 nerfs. Frankly I hope he continues to be underrated because he might get buffed again.

 

[RayNoire]

Crouching's not really analogous to shielding though. It beats different things (like grabs and SH aerials) and requires different answers. It also isn't as much of a commitment against empty hops and can be held indefinitely. These are more than minor differences I think, especially the commitment factor.

I know crouching is really hard for Mewtwo to deal with, since his DA, dash grab, Disable, and almost everything out of a SH can be ducked by Kirby.

I could totally see it being useful against Sheik.

 

[Routa]

Did someone mention crouching?

http://youtu.be/oDvk3PMTVH0

 

[Shaya]

Crouching's not really analogous to shielding though. It beats different things (like grabs and SH aerials) and requires different answers. It also isn't as much of a commitment against empty hops and can be held indefinitely. These are more than minor differences I think, especially the commitment factor.

I know crouching is really hard for Mewtwo to deal with, since his DA, dash grab, Disable, and almost everything out of a SH can be ducked by Kirby.

I could totally see it being useful against Sheik.

It's closer to shielding then rolling or spot dodging, to compare, in 90% or more situations. For a character like Fox, it doesn't really function as a defensive mechanic at all (bar crouch into power shield, but everyone uses that with generally great effect). But still, for the most part all it's doing is acting out as a alternative shield. The main answer to crouching is the same answer as to shielding, doing whatever you want to improve positional advantage and create pressure.
Shields beat short hop aerials as well. It -can- beat grabs though, unlike plain shielding. But my point still remains. 'How do I beat crouching" is the same as "how do I beat shielding". Smart uses of it as a defensive OPTION (not a win stance) means you were outplayed or did not choose appropriate actions while <insert previous italics>, although for a majority of crouching characters there's nothing stopping you (Sheik-da-bess).


Both actions mean you aren't moving and there are clear visual indicators when you do. Crawls exist of course, but short of micro spacing it isn't a huge impact.

 

[RayNoire]

It's closer to shielding then rolling or spot dodging, to compare, in 90% or more situations. For a character like Fox, it doesn't really function as a defensive mechanic at all (bar crouch into power shield, but everyone uses that with generally great effect). But still, for the most part all it's doing is acting out as a alternative shield. The main answer to crouching is the same answer as to shielding, doing whatever you want to improve positional advantage and create pressure.
Shields beat short hop aerials as well. It -can- beat grabs though, unlike plain shielding. But my point still remains. 'How do I beat crouching" is the same as "how do I beat shielding". Smart uses of it as a defensive OPTION (not a win stance) means you were outplayed or did not choose appropriate actions while <insert previous italics>, although for a majority of crouching characters there's nothing stopping you (Sheik-da-bess).


Both actions mean you aren't moving and there are clear visual indicators when you do. Crawls exist of course, but short of micro spacing it isn't a huge impact.

Yeah, I agree for the most part. But some characters could struggle against crouching like some struggle against shields without much overlap (Falcon comes to mind). I don't know if Sheik is one of those characters, but I could believe it.

Obviously no one just straight loses to crouch, but to say it could be a factor doesn't seem too far-fetched. Although I do wonder why it's always Kirby that's brought up and never Jiggly or G&W. How are those MUs?

 

[Shaya]

Jiggly has crouch jump rest (if your grab doesn't reach and she uses it in a clutch fashion like this, it's beautiful, but nothing new: Melee) and G&W has dash attack/up smash/etc

Kirby has down tilt...
Both of the aforementioned have significantly better game plans with crouch.

 

[Routa]

Btw doesn't WFT have the shortest crouch? Also what can WFT do out of crouch other than Dtilt?

 

[Shaya]

two shield cancel specials, ftilt (hits both sides), solid dash grab/attack.
Her dtilt acts out as an anti-air of sorts as well.

 

[Mo433]

CROUCHING IS ANALOGOUS TO SHIELDING

MINOR ALTERATIONS to options and specifics otherwise, but it is a DEFENSIVE MECHANIC, no single DEFENSIVE MECHANIC makes a match up, unless holding shield in itself was effective enough already.
There is close to little effective difference to crouching than to shielding. Some character's potency of their crouch are better than others (negating certain moves being able to hit you), BUT SO DOES SHIELDING. Or if you're worried about the various special grabs there is rolling and spot dodging too.

Crouching is rarely, if ever, more effective than another defensive option chosen appropriately. It's less committing but really, not by much.

The only character with a scary crouch in this game is Sheik.
She has good range and frame data attacks out of it, while she can also throw out needles from it. Almost just like shielding, she can punish someone choosing incorrectly against her defensive motion. Oh, she can crawl too, which is good.
Kirby though... are you outside of down tilt range? Then it's useless and applies ZERO PRESSURE.
If you're game and watch you have dash attack. If you're WiiFit trainer you have projectile specials...

CROUCHING BY ITSELF DOES NOTHING, just like holding shield indefinitely does nothing.
YOUR OPTIONS OUT OF A CROUCH IS WHAT MATTERS. IF YOU'RE KIRBY YOU STILL DON'T HAVE ANY GOOD OPTIONS OUT OF IT.

</rant-perhaps-default-copy-and-paste-next-time-I-hear-the-word>

The way I see it, ducking under projectiles as Kirby does a lot for him. Instead of being forced to approach and being walked out, Kirby can duck and make he opponent come to him. A character like Luigi, for example heavily relies on his fireballs to get a grab. When this happens to Kirby, he can duck under fireballs and down tilt Luigi to keep him from grabbing. Kirby actually has some pretty good options out of crouch, such as down-tilt, side smash, and up tilt, depending on the character. The fact that Kirby can duck under a lot of grabs is really effective, since he can punish with all those listed options.

 

[Cassio]

Crouching? That's my jam!

So the thing about crouching is it generally presents an alternative to shielding or other defensive tactics as shaya mentioned. However I do think it adds rather significant benefits.

Crouching is a 1 frame movement reducing the height of your hurtbox. Its general use is to avoid being hit just like shield. Unlike shield it won't protect the whole characters frame and isn't as easy to use out of run (it's biggest disadvantage vs shield or short characters would never shield), but it also avoids the shieldstun and shield lag drop allowing for significantly more reliable punishes (for this reason shielding combats SH aerials but crouching is better when you're ABLE to).

At the very least, these traits force the opponent to respect crouch which limits their ability to attack and pressure their opponent when done well. A strong case could also be made that smart baits will allow players to open up an offense.

It's not seen too often because most good characters either don't have particularly good crouches or don't have great options from crouch.

Aside from size good ground options are important, options in crouch are better, being as to crawl is also a big plus.

As pika in true neutral I would say I'm crouching 2/3rds of the time which I sense my opponents feel makes me a ****.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sinister slush and his boys scared everyone from talking about Yoshi positively. Say good things about Yoshi when he's online i dare you.

But I gotta mang, cause sometimes people from for glory come here to talk about how broken Yo-

Sooo... What does stop Yoshi from being Top Tier? Because I tried to shield Yoshi's attacks and it didn't worked at all. I also tried to not get grabbed and when I got grabbed. Surprise: Frame traps. Every single match in FG with a ****ing Yoshi ended in me losing. So what the hell is stopping this god damn character from being Top Tier? Yoshi's Jab is stupidly good. Nair is so damn god like in shield and Up Smash it's just amazing for killing. Are you guys really serious when you say Yoshi isn't top tier? He's a monster.

I was too late...

 

[Nobie]

Kirby's down tilt is really good though.

Down tilt trip into f-smash is a thing that can and does happen.

 

[Dre89]

Diddy struggles against common characters like Mario, Luigi, and Rosalina, while also having a very tough time against pikachu. Many diddys don't like the Sheik matchup either and sheiks generally say they win, although I don't think it's too bad personally. When (if?) people actually learn how to defend against and use peels his matchups will get worse.

I think seagull Joe's placement of Diddy is pretty good. He loses to enough tourney threats that I don't think he's really solo viable. I wouldn't succeed nearly as much as a Diddy main on the local circuit without the two characters I have to cover his bad matchups. He bodies most unpopular characters but there's a reason you don't see a lot of successful Diddys anymore.

How can Diddy not be solo-viable when Zero still bodies everyone with him

Viability simply means whether a character can win tourneys or not. Better characters are just more viable, or more optimal. Most, if not all characters are still viable in the sense that you could win with them assuming you were good enough. Zero has single-handedly proven that people haven't reached the level where a match-up can invalidate inferior skill even at the highest level of play. The guy was bodying high-level Diddies pre-nerf with Falcon and that MU was at least 6-4 in Diddy's favour at the time.

Even during the later years of Brawl, when the meta was supposedly more developed, people were still winning 4-6s and even 3-7s at high level play. The idea that only like 10-20% of the Sm4sh cast is capable of winning tourneys solo is a joke.

 

[Diddy Kong]

>People argueing Diddy's peels will be used against him
>Brawl has been out since 2008, Diddy's bananas are still strong as ever in that game
>ZeRo used Diddy against Mr.R's Sheik, in a patch where Diddy was worse than ever, and DESTROYED that Sheik (best Sheik in the world as most claimed)

BUT DIDDY ISN'T SOLO-VIABLE!?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Interesting. See, I've seen so many arguments for Marth as... what, low high tier(?) since his buffs, and Greninja as top 20. So this looks off to me.

@ DanGR : It's mostly theory-crafting w/ customs. But it doesn't seem like Kirby gets destroyed or is even as disadvantaged like other characters. That and people have opinions from playing the MU.

My friend plays Sheik, actually. When I play with him in person I can start saying things lol.

EDIT: Actually, we're always hearing from Kirby's, while the only Sheik we've heard from is ZeRo. Where are the Sheiks that have played the matchup?

Wait, what does ZeRo say it is?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Kirby's down tilt is really good though.

Down tilt trip into f-smash is a thing that can and does happen.

It's about range, speed, and disjoint, not so much as it is about reward. His dtilt is good but not a good option out of a crouch.

 

[Wintermelon43]

CROUCHING IS ANALOGOUS TO SHIELDING

MINOR ALTERATIONS to options and specifics otherwise, but it is a DEFENSIVE MECHANIC, no single DEFENSIVE MECHANIC makes a match up, unless holding shield in itself was effective enough already.
There is close to little effective difference to crouching than to shielding. Some character's potency of their crouch are better than others (negating certain moves being able to hit you), BUT SO DOES SHIELDING. Or if you're worried about the various special grabs there is rolling and spot dodging too.

Crouching is rarely, if ever, more effective than another defensive option chosen appropriately. It's less committing but really, not by much.

The only character with a scary crouch in this game is Sheik.
She has good range and frame data attacks out of it, while she can also throw out needles from it. Almost just like shielding, she can punish someone choosing incorrectly against her defensive motion. Oh, she can crawl too, which is good.
Kirby though... are you outside of down tilt range? Then it's useless and applies ZERO PRESSURE.
If you're game and watch you have dash attack. If you're WiiFit trainer you have projectile specials...

CROUCHING BY ITSELF DOES NOTHING, just like holding shield indefinitely does nothing.
YOUR OPTIONS OUT OF A CROUCH IS WHAT MATTERS. IF YOU'RE KIRBY YOU STILL DON'T HAVE ANY GOOD OPTIONS OUT OF IT.

</rant-perhaps-default-copy-and-paste-next-time-I-hear-the-word>

Crouching isn't the only reason why the matchup is even.

Some point soon I'm gonna need to make a HUGE essay explaining Kirby's strengths and weaknesses, and everything about him. two paragraphs will be dedictated to his crouching, two paragraphs on ZSS Vs. Kirby, and two Paragraphs on Sheik VS. Kirby, if not more paragraphs.

 

[Smog Frog]

i cant see how is top 5. top 10 maybe, but top 5 i cant really see. first off, his character design(poor range, mobility, linear) doesnt bode well for anything beyond a local level. its easy to beat him should you play a character with better range and space him out(or run away, its easy to do that too). his results have been indicative of something too: he hasn't gotten anything notable at top level(he's been pretty absent from top 8s at majors), so as people get better and more people approach a higher level, he's gonna lose steam, even at a local level. his only success has been as a side character(which he's really good at and why i still think he's a good character), but i dont think he's capable of taking tournaments on his lonesome beyond a local level.

of course i've been preaching that for as long as i can remember. i think he's a decent boundary for solo-viable and need a secondary to be viable.