Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[HFlash]

I can't think of any moves in DK's toolkit that are particularly reliable reflection options. He's not Megaman who can outmeme Gordo spam with lemons.

Literally DK's entire moveset reflects Gordos..... including jab. Hell, so long as it's not stale, Falcon's first hit jab reflects Gordos. Plus, why would you want DDD to be able to spam like Megaman? The whole identity of MM is to be able to zone people out with projectiles. DDD shouldn't fit the same archetype.

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah, DK is Strong Kong. It's very distinct to a character like Pit, who needs a solid f-air or b-air to knock the Gordo back, but DK's...everything is strong. I don't think reflection is an issue for him.

If anything, it's disjoints and the fact that a timely Gordo can open the door for another. Unstoppable force / immovable object and all that jazzmatazz.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Gordos don't need to be hit with a strong attack to be reflected. Z-drop peels reflect gordos. That move is incredibly underwhelming.

 

[Wintropy]

Gordos don't need to be hit with a strong attack to be reflected. Z-drop peels reflect gordos. That move is incredibly underwhelming.

Pretty sure Pit's n-air doesn't if it hits on anything but the last hitbox.

I speak from personal, bloodied experience.

 

[slavoslav]

Fairly sure that a single F-Tilt can reflect a Gordo.

You can reflect Gordos with Warlock Punch too, doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do (you'd get a ton of style points though!),

The hitbox of DK's Ftilt is open for only a couple of frames (like, 2? idk). Such moves are particularly bad at reflecting Gordos as you need to be _very_ precise with those attacks in order to not get hit. Gordos are somewhat unpredictable with 3 different base angles and various hitbox sizes, and the height from which they are tossed affect their bouncing trajectory as well. The best none-projectile answer to Gordos are moves with long-lasting hitboxes like sexkick Nairs. Reflecting them with quick hitboxes close to your body and little height coverage (DK's Nair trades with Gordos a lot) is a risky maneuver. Likely not worth it most of the time because a good Dedede is not going to throw out Gordos at mid-range where he can't shield a reflected Gordo in time in the first place.

 

[DunnoBro]

Isn't Dedede one of the characters DK can do that 72% combo on? Can't really see this MU looking too great...

 

[Hippieslayer]

You can reflect Gordos with Warlock Punch too, doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do (you'd get a ton of style points though!),

The hitbox of DK's Ftilt is open for only a couple of frames (like, 2? idk). Such moves are particularly bad at reflecting Gordos as you need to be _very_ precise with those attacks in order to not get hit. Gordos are somewhat unpredictable with 3 different base angles and various hitbox sizes, and the height from which they are tossed affect their bouncing trajectory as well. The best none-projectile answer to Gordos are moves with long-lasting hitboxes like sexkick Nairs. Reflecting them with quick hitboxes close to your body and little height coverage (DK's Nair trades with Gordos a lot) is a risky maneuver. Likely not worth it most of the time because a good Dedede is not going to throw out Gordos at mid-range where he can't shield a reflected Gordo in time in the first place.

I wouldn't say its hard at all to reflect gordo's with a short lasting hitbox, its just something you don't get much practice doing since you don't get to face many DDD's since DDD sucks. I'm pretty sure its actually quite easy.

 

[slavoslav]

pls dont bully dedede pls
this a bully-free zone

 

[Djent]

I think we're almost to the point where discussing character attributes should be superseded my discussion of MU spreads for the purpose of tiering. Knowing that which characters have desirable attributes (mobility, kill set-ups, OoS/defensive options, etc.) provide reliable heuristics to their eventual placement. But at the end of the day, their (weighted) spreads are the only things that matter for determining their viability.

FWIW I have an excel sheet of the top 10 Brawl characters and (my opinions of) their MUs which I used to calculate the "top tiers" off of weighted spreads.* The most valuable part of this project was not the final result, but the fact that it allowed me to test how the top tiers changed across various plausible scenarios. Sometimes I found that my intuitive tiering of a character lined up with a particularly optimistic/pessimistic MU spread, in which case I knew that I was probably overrating/underrating that character. For instance, I found that I had to be very optimistic about Falco/ZSS and very pessimistic about Snake/Pika if I wanted to place them in their conventional spots. I concluded from this that either the conventional MU or tier list wisdom had to be wrong.

I'm thinking of doing the same thing for this game soon. My methodology requires that the relevant threats be identified beforehand, but we've already done that through tournament results + the aforementioned tiering heuristics.

* = the weighting in this case was fairly simple. Everyone agreed that / ran the game, so I just doubled the value of those MUs relative to all others. I'd argue the weighting procedure for this game could be just as simple...anyway, the tier groupings were just based off of obvious gaps in the clustering of the final numerical values.

And FWIW here's what I came up with for Brawl, which you're welcome to use to judge whether or not I'm a total crackpot:

Spoiler

(Ordered within)
S
A+
A
A-
B+

EDIT: WOW I can't spelling and grammar today

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don't see him beating ganon honestly. Dedede's whole neutral is "hover and bait" but ganon's big *** lagless upair is a piss easy challenge to that. Ftilt/Fsmash also kills dedede uncharacteristically early due to his fast faller status.

You forget that D3 has a disjointed hitbox to challenge a lot of Ganon's ****, but other than that I can see Ganon having a slight advantage over him. It's not as ridiculously overblown as you're making it out to be. Maybe with customs on, but not in a vanilla environment.

Everything else I really don't care to address at this point. Yeah, I felt D3 went better against some of the other swordies a while ago, but between buffs and my lack of time/patience, I can't really say one way or the other.

Smooth Criminal

 

[HFlash]

pls dont bully dedede pls
this a bully-free zone

No one is bullying anyone, we are simply saying that the claim you made that DDD can win the DK MU (or any MU really) based on the ability to zone with Gordos is just false when every character can easily reflect it with almost all (if not all) of their moveset. This is actually a good place where they can buff DD (Make it at least 8% or something like that to reflect. If you think you are being bullied, you shoulda seen the immediate whip lash I got when looking for feed back on the kirby/shiek MU. All I said was that maybe Kirby can use crouching vs a Shiek possibly and the next page and a half was a rant at how dumb/overused that notion was. Which btw, still waiting on why many people think it's an even MU.

I think we're almost to the point where discussing character attributes should be superseded my discussion of MU spreads for the purpose of tiering. Knowing that which characters have desirable attributes (mobility, kill set-ups, OoS/defensive options, etc.) provide reliable heuristics to their eventual placement. But at the end of the day, their (weighted) spreads are the only things that matter for determining their viability.

FWIW I have an excel sheet of the top 10 Brawl characters and (my opinions of) their MUs which I used to calculate the "top tiers" off of weighted spreads.* The most valuable part of this project was not the final result, but the fact that it allowed me to test how the top tiers changed across various plausible scenarios. Sometimes I found that my intuitive tiering of a character lined up with a particularly optimistic/pessimistic MU spread, in which case I knew that I was probably overrating/underrating that character. For instance, I found that I had to be very optimistic about Falco/ZSS and very pessimistic about Snake/Pika if I wanted to place them in their conventional spots. I concluded from this that either the conventional MU or tier list wisdom had to be wrong.

I'm thinking of doing the same thing for this game soon. My methodology requires that the relevant threats be identified beforehand, but we've already done that through tournament results + the aforementioned tiering heuristics.

* = the weighting in this case as fairly simple. Everyone agreed that / ran the game, so I just doubled the value of those MUs relative to all others. I'd argue the weighting procedure for this game could be just as simple...anyway, the tier groupings were just based off of obvious gaps in the clustering of the final numerical values.

And FWIW here's what I came up with for Brawl, which you're welcome to use to judge whether or not I'm a total crackpot:

Spoiler

(Ordered within)
S
A+
A
A-
B+

EDIT: WOW I can't spelling and grammar today

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Olimar considered mid tier during the starting stages of the Brawl meta, to eventually take a top 3 spot? Wouldn't surprise me if 2 or 3 characters in this game had similar tier placings over the course of the Smash 4's meta game development.

 

[DunnoBro]

You forget that D3 has a disjointed hitbox to challenge a lot of Ganon's ****, but other than that I can see Ganon having a slight advantage over him. It's not as ridiculously overblown as you're making it out to be. Maybe with customs on, but not in a vanilla environment.

I didn't mean to make it overblown. I just consider how characters interact in the neutral and how efficiently they secure kills to be the main way to determine how a MU goes. Of course other interactions matter (like challenges) but I generally lack the in-depth understanding of the given characters to speak much on them.

 

[Gawain]

Here's a question: why do people consistently put ROB so high in their list? I'm not seeing how ROB is high tier. He looks to have abysmal matchups with most of the high tiers.

 

[Wintropy]

No one is bullying anyone

He was being facetious.

But yeah it's unfortunate that Dedede's staple tool is so easy to sabotage. I get why it's reflectable (an invincible Gordo would just create an impenetrable wall between you and the fat penguin), but the fact that everybody can serve it back with a single hit kinda undermines Deeds' best stonewall tactic.

His mobility is just weak as the word itself, too, which means he doesn't really have any other approach options.

He's a defensive tank, but is he sustainable if his best defensive tools can be so fundamentally crippled?

Here's a question: why do people consistently put ROB so high in their list? I'm not seeing how ROB is high tier. He looks to have abysmal matchups with most of the high tiers.

Kinda want to know myself.

I guess it helps that he has decent results in Japan (if that is indeed correct)?

EDIT: And elsewhere, heh~

 

[Jabejazz]

I don't see him beating ganon honestly. Dedede's whole neutral is "hover and bait" but ganon's big *** lagless upair is a piss easy challenge to that. Ftilt/Fsmash also kills dedede uncharacteristically early due to his fast faller status.

Yeah, no.
I'd argue TripleD has a slightly better neutral because of better disjoints, I feel it's honestly much easier to space as TripleD. Also, knockback or not, Gordos are a pressure tool Ganon has to deal with physically.

That being said, matchup is stupidly volatile because of how ridiculously hard Ganon hits us, and how easy it is to edgeguard a Ganon as TripleD. I can't see it more than 45:55 one way or the other.

Also DK destroys us. He's honestly not fun at all to play against post 1.08. What the ****ing ****.

As for the other heavies, Bowser is evenish as well. Ike is a solid 6-4 for him(Ike).

Marcina were very manageable back then, now it's probably more even or slightly in their favor.

 

[Firefoxx]

Here's a question: why do people consistently put ROB so high in their list? I'm not seeing how ROB is high tier. He looks to have abysmal matchups with most of the high tiers.

Because, despite all his seemingly obvious crippling flaws, he just keeps winning and many regions have at least one strong ROB player.

For some reference, when i say he keeps winning, i mean that he has won 45 reported tournaments in the history of the Wii U version which doesn't sound like much but actually puts him 13th overall.

edit: oh and if you remove locals from the equation he moves up to tied for 7th ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[HFlash]

Here's a question: why do people consistently put ROB so high in their list? I'm not seeing how ROB is high tier. He looks to have abysmal matchups with most of the high tiers.

Because of the diversity of how you can play with the gyro. Here's a good example, didn't know this was possible until I watched Mr.Eric pull this off in a tournament on a twitch stream. I can only imagine that Rob players will continue to learn new ways to mess around with their move set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd6lz01zekw

 

[Routa]

I think DDD is in a odd spot. I mean he has great Ftilt and Jab, but everything els is... Atm I can see him in bottom tier. But then again I really don't know much about DDD so yeah.

I heard someone mention Pit. After watching some Pit fights I have to say I can see why he is placed so high. Nice edgeguarding game, great air game (dat Nair and Fair), good projectile, easy to recover with etc. But one thing I don't get... Why is Dark Pit almost always placed about 5 spots under Pit? Yeah he does not have as good Ftilt and arrows, but is it enough to not place him next to Pit?

 

[DunnoBro]

Yeah he does not have as good Ftilt and arrows, but is it enough to not place him next to Pit?

Upperdash arm is just way better and more reliable.

Only vs very specific characters in very specific situations is electroshock arm better.

 

[Wintropy]

I heard someone mention Pit. After watching some Pit fights I have to say I can see why he is placed so high. Nice edgeguarding game, great air game (dat Nair and Fair), good projectile, easy to recover with etc. But one thing I don't get... Why is Dark Pit almost always placed about 5 spots under Pit? Yeah he does not have as good Ftilt and arrows, but is it enough to not place him next to Pit?

People think it makes a big difference.

It really doesn't. Shaya even suggested a merge for the two boards on this site because the differences between the Pits are fundamentally trivial, the only exception being a VERY small handful of hypothetical matchups where Dark Pit may be a better choice (Rosalina because Luma, Little Mac to get him off-stage, etc).

Upperdash arm is just way better and more reliable.

Only vs very specific characters in very specific situations is electroshock arm better.

Disputed.

Upperdash is essentially a coup de grace when the opponent's at kill percents and you can get a good read. Even then, it's only more beneficial on-stage, but especially so if the stage has a low ceiling; off-stage, Electroshock can kill the opponent off the horizontal blastzones, again especially if the boundaries are smaller.

Both moves tend to be opted for infrequently anyway.

It isn't too big a deal.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People overrate ROB's tournament performance. Apart from the random secondary choice or a cameo appearance by OCEAN ROB pretty much doesn't exist in Japan. Holy's great and all but he like never travels and the other good international ROB player [Longo from Germany] is virtually unknown outside of his country and with the amount of good Sheik and Fox players germany has there's little chance that he'll actually break into the top 4 at bigger tournaments.

So there's basically a handful of results by 8bitman left that should be taken into consideration. It's not a whole lot if you add all that together.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Isn't Dedede one of the characters DK can do that 72% combo on? Can't really see this MU looking too great...

Some people just don't watch the frontpage I guess.

 

[Mario766]

Ike destroys D3 after the buffs.

 

[Trifroze]

A lot of stuff that applies to ZSS also applies to Rosalina I feel. Tall, lightweight, easily punishable for Diddy, just watchout for projectiles and we good.

Tall and light is where the similarities essentially stop, Rosalina also being a lot taller with a bigger hurtbox thanks to her mariohead while being noticeably lighter as well. ZSS lands, gets away from "combos" and recovers for free while Rosalina doesn't. ZSS has amazing mobility while Rosalina doesn't. ZSS has long range zoning disjoints and a safe projectile while Rosalina has Luma for similar things, however Luma can be attacked and lost. Diddy won't punish the stuff that ZSS generally does unless he has a banana in which case neutral becomes tough for ZSS because she essentially can't do shorthop aerials anymore.

I'd say out of the top tiers Diddy and Mario are the closest to even with ZSS, but I haven't seen reasons why they would beat her so far. Diddy is there because when he gets the banana out he overpowers ZSS in neutral on the same level as Sheik, and comboing Diddy is actually a bit tougher than comboing Sheik. There are many ways for ZSS to prevent the banana from coming out though, and Diddy doesn't get nearly as much reward as her for getting things started.

Mario is there because of how much pressure he can apply with his aerials and mobility once he gets through the nairs and zairs which he doesn't seem to struggle too much with. Cape also prevents ZSS from messing around with paralyzer too much, and ZSS' combo reliability on Mario is below average. At the same time, Mario just lacks a way to finish her off safely as long as you avoid challenging Mario from above.

Sheik and Pikachu on the other hand seem disadvantageous. Pikachu being hard to hit and punish with certain options out of some of his moves may just be something that will be dealt with as time goes on (i.e. difficulty, not incapability). Pikachu's hurtbox when he's in disadvantage is surprisingly large though because of his tail. That's how I originally found guaranteed DI undependant dthrow to knee setups on Pikachu with Falcon; if the tail wasn't there you would take 2-3 more frames to hit him and it wouldn't work.

Sheik's neutral is so safe that it's hard to get things started versus her, but when you do there's a good chance she'll lose the stock out of a single conversion, something that's a general trait of ZSS. As such I doubt this'll ever be a large disadvantage either. Nair outranging Sheik's fair while being disjointed helps a lot, and so does Sheik's above average size. Can't say that I've had a lot of experience with this matchup though, I've only used ZSS for a few weeks now. I think ZSS' down b can be used to ledge vulnerability meteor Sheik's recovery on reaction if she has to come from far away, and will eventually be a big deal in this and some other matchups.

Luigi matchup is pretty volatile in the sense that if you miss a grab at anywhere above 45% you're going to be dead from his up b, whereas in other matchups you can generally keep throwing it out until 80-90%. However there's very little Luigi can do to get in or punish ZSS for anything she does, and ZSS is one of the characters who can SDI down out of tornado forcing Luigi to use it much less effectively. Definite advantage in my opinion.

I haven't played versus Finland's best (and I suppose the only) Rosalina with ZSS yet but from what I've seen ZSS seems to be able to match her zoning for the most part while also having the capability to rush her down. Ness, Fox and Sonic I also lack experience with so can't say anything for those.

Often I see people say ZSS beats this and loses to that but people rarely if ever explain why. I don't think Zero mentioned anything either when he announced that he thinks ZSS is the second best in the game.

 

[DunnoBro]

Disputed.

Upperdash is essentially a coup de grace when the opponent's at kill percents and you can get a good read. Even then, it's only more beneficial on-stage, but especially so if the stage has a low ceiling; off-stage, Electroshock can kill the opponent off the horizontal blastzones, again especially if the boundaries are smaller.

Both moves tend to be opted for infrequently anyway.

It isn't too big a deal.

Well I'm going off just what I see and what pink fresh told me. Upperdash just kills more often, and the openings/times a read will connect overlap with when it will kill more consistently. At least that's how it looks to me.

It's probably a small difference in the end, though.

 

[Pazx]

's matchup spread imo:

-2:
(come at me)

-1:


±0:
(adv. to MK imo but MK and ROB boards say it's even so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

≥1:
notably, plus the rest of the cast I'd imagine. I didn't believe this for a long time (because if Luigi gets in he gets in hard) but the more I play this matchup the more I like it for ROB.

Not great, but not terrible by any means. Luigi, Sonic, Falcon, Diddy are good matchups to have (possibly) in your favour. He does have results going for him as well though unlike a lot of candidates for an elusive top 20 spot.

The character I think we should be questioning is Yoshi. Somehow he has worse/fewer results than ROB. Does this character beat ANYONE in the top 15-20ish of the cast, aside from ROB? For the record I think Yoshi is the better of the two, but I'm not convinced he's actually good.

Edit: re: pit vs pittoo discussion, neutral b > side b in terms of importance.

 

[Wintropy]

Well I'm going off just what I see and what pink fresh told me. Upperdash just kills more often, and the openings/times a read will connect overlap with when it will kill more consistently. At least that's how it looks to me.

It's probably a small difference in the end, though.

That is true. It doesn't really make much of a difference in execution, though, since you get Upperdash kills relatively infrequently compared to other shared kills (f-smash, f-throw, etc).

It really does come down to personal playstyle (on-stage kills off the top or off-stage chase kills off the side?) and the nature of the matchup. Yet ultimately, the fact that it's a niche weapon with a niche effect means it's kinda much for muchness.

I'd argue arrows are a more pertinent difference. Even so, the efficacy of arrows in any state of the match trivialises the distinction.

The Pits are 99% interchangeable.

 

[DunnoBro]

The character I think we should be questioning is Yoshi. Somehow he has worse/fewer results than ROB. Does this character beat ANYONE in the top 15-20ish of the cast, aside from ROB? For the record I think Yoshi is the better of the two, but I'm not convinced he's actually good.

Yoshi loses to all top tiers imo

He's fun to use against luigi since for once luigi is the not-braindead one, but defensive luigi wins irrefutably. Being so weak to shield, command grabbing not beating spaced fireballs, and if they properly bait out your grab, the endlag from it is a free fire jump punch. (Also being floaty means luigi can be at 140%, yoshi at 60% and luigi is winning)

MK, Sonic, and Rosalina mains have a habit of complaining about yoshi though so it might be even or awkward for them, but I don't see it as his favor at all.

Dabuz freaking detroyed raptor at smashcon. Really exposed yoshi's pitiful neutral.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wait lucina can apply pressure better then marth?

Just let it go man.

Just let it go.

 

[warionumbah2]

Until MKs actually start abusing their unimaginable punish game, MUs such as ROB will remain even. He's one of the easiest characters to uair combo and its not hard at all to land the 3rd hit of DA.

4 characters can get 0 to death by uair combos, i used to be so strict on getting safe combo's but now im like **** it. Sheik,ZSS,C.Falcon and a few more are lucky there's only a 10% or less interval where MK can murder them.

35 characters maybe more suffer tho including MK himself(dittos is cancer you literally need a secondary to avoid this IMO).

 

[meleebrawler]

Also DK destroys us. He's honestly not fun at all to play against post 1.08. What the ****ing ****.

Talk about karma. DK 's revenge for getting chain-grabbed into undisputed non-viability all those years ago.

 

[|RK|]

I swear Meta Knight + Jigglypuff = Kirby. Which is probably why my favorite three characters to play as is 1.Kirby 2.Jigglypuff 3.Meta Knight

Also I'm tired of explaining Kirby VS. ZSS, so I'm simply gonna ask a question. Have any top players (Or any of the best Kirby or ZSS or Sheik users) Ever dicussed the sheik or ZSS matchups? The other one I know that did this is ZeRo, who says Kirby VS. Sheik is even I believe, going by somebody above (I don't rememeber where he said it too)

And I can main who I want, thank you. Maybe you prefer Meta Knight over Kirby (Well, you do) to main. I don't give a crap on that, you find him more fun, it means nothing to me, I won't complain or anything of course. But DON'T tell others to switch mains

We had a discussion many pages back - Bengals sees ZSS vs Kirby as slightly in ZSSs favor, while DeLux says it's slightly in Kirby's favor. Pg. 105/107 of this thread. Don't have a link to SmashGod vs Bengals, sorry.

 

[DanGR]

I've heard from a lot of folks that Roy's neutral is subpar. I haven't had issues landing hits myself though. What makes it so bad?

In my time playing Roy, I've steered away from the heavy zoning you'd initially expect from a swordie, in favor of elaborating on his speed and mobility options to support a heavy punish game. Combined with moving around the stage very quickly and fluidly (his speed, fox trot, and air speed are a truly godlike combination), his plethora of grab followups discourages opponents from sitting in shield for very long. It doesn't seem difficult to nip opponents with nair as you're flying around the stage.

I think zoning, sitting with his sword swinging around right in front of his opponent, is the wrong way to go. His kit doesn't seem to support that playstyle. Again, his grab heavily discourages shielding too much, and his speed both on the ground and in the air can create openings.

The biggest things he seems to lack is a meta-defining mobility special move, and a good recovery.

 

[Trifroze]

We had a discussion many pages back - Bengals sees ZSS vs Kirby as slightly in ZSSs favor, while DeLux says it's slightly in Kirby's favor. Pg. 105/107 of this thread. Don't have a link to SmashGod vs Bengals, sorry.

DeLux also thinks Sheik MU is terrible while Pikachu, Fox, Diddy, Brawler and Olimar are bad and Rosalina, Mario, Ness, Sonic, Falcon, Yoshi, MK, G&W and Jigglypuff are slightly bad, which would make ZSS rank somewhere around 15th in the meta.

just saying

 

[Emblem Lord]

I've heard from a lot of folks that Roy's neutral is subpar. I haven't had issues landing hits myself though. What makes it so bad?

In my time playing Roy, I've steered away from the heavy zoning you'd initially expect from a swordie, in favor of elaborating on his speed and mobility options to support a heavy punish game. Combined with moving around the stage very quickly and fluidly (his speed, fox trot, and air speed are a truly godlike combination), his plethora of grab followups discourages opponents from sitting in shield for very long. It doesn't seem difficult to nip opponents with nair as you're flying around the stage.

I think zoning, sitting with his sword swinging around right in front of his opponent is the wrong way to go. His kit doesn't seem to support that playstyle. Again, his grab heavily discourages shielding to much, and his speed both on the ground and in the air can create openings.

The biggest things he seems to lack is a meta-defining mobility special move, and a good recovery.

Nothing is wrong with his neutral.

People just suck.

You should know this by now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The character I think we should be questioning is Yoshi. Somehow he has worse/fewer results than ROB. Does this character beat ANYONE in the top 15-20ish of the cast, aside from ROB? For the record I think Yoshi is the better of the two, but I'm not convinced he's actually good.

1.) Yoshi doesn't have a single top level player maining him therefore he has like no results. Raptor, Slice and Aiba are his best players and they are barely even regional threats.
2.) Yoshi has like the scrubbiest and most deluded community ever. Been like that since the good old days of Brawl.
3.) Yoshi beats Fox, Sonic and Rosalina for starters. Probably beats Wario too. Doubt he loses to Ness, Falcon or Villager. Just stuff off the top of my head.

I love how every time somebody talks about how good Yoshi is, some of their mains show up and argue as if everybody who thinks highly of the character was just some misinformed FG scrub. But then I read stuff like "Egg Toss is overrated because it doesn't work as a camping tool" on the Yoshi boards and I realize it's just them not knowing how their character works.

 

[HFlash]

3.) Yoshi beats Fox, Sonic and Rosalina for starters.

It's hard to take anything you say seriously about Yoshi when you make a statement like that. Did you not watch Smashcon? Dabuz OBLITERATED Raptor, and I'm more than confident that the MU had something to do with that.

Edit: I have to disagree on the Yoshi community comment as well. I am convinced that that title belongs to the Falcon community.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Everyone was talking about what can reflect Gordos and nobody mentioned how Luigi's taunt can even do so?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Everyone was talking about what can reflect Gordos and nobody mentioned how Luigi's taunt can even do so?

Now I know what I'll do against @ S slavoslav when I see him at the tourney next month...
After he roflstomped my main in brackets

 

[Pazx]

Instead of calling people out why don't we discuss precisely why Yoshi does or doesn't suck against certain characters? A single set between two mismatched players (in terms of skill) isn't exactly good evidence.

I'd be inclined to believe the only character @ ~ Gheb ~ listed that Yoshi actually beats is Villager but I'd be interested in seeing why he thinks Yoshi wins those matchups. @ DunnoBro 's input on Yoshi vs Luigi was far more valuable that simply saying "X character wins".