Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

...What results does greninja have?

Amsa 9th place apex....

 

[Ffamran]

Hmm... maybe Gheb or PUK would know... Are there any notable Greninja players in Europe?

 

[wedl!!]

i legitimately don't know how you can consider megaman better than peach when he doesn't even have results that are nearly on her level. Peach has the likes of EOE/Slayerz/llod, and who does MM have? zucco?

also, rob and ike are doing great at a local/major level (ryo, holy, etc), and dk has placed in top 8 at two majors consecutively (twice at sktar). robin is tearing up florida (can't recall the name of her rep), and tweek is pushing junior to his limits.

 

[warionumbah2]

Amsa 9th place apex....

lol is that it?

 

[adom4]

Hmm... maybe Gheb or PUK would know... Are there any notable Greninja players in Europe?

I know Istudying from Holland has a pretty good Greninja.

 

[HFlash]

Amsa 9th place apex....

Has Amsa been to any other American Nationals aside from Apex? If so, how did he place? If he hasn't that may be part of the reason why Greninja is lacking in at least American results

 

[biribiri]

Has Amsa been to any other American Nationals aside from Apex? If so, how did he place? If he hasn't that may be part of the reason why Greninja is lacking in at least American results

33rd at EVO after being eliminated by Dabuz.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja is ranked 20-25th in US power rankings alone depending on what scale you use. Note that this scale is flawed due to character popularity affecting results at a regional level, but for a character who isn't overly popular like Greninja, it gives you a good idea of how well they're doing.

Greninja ranks better than that in offline Japanese tournaments and slightly worse than that in online Japanese tournaments.

Internationally he has a fairly strong French and UK presence with smatterings of results throughout the rest of Europe.

Most people discount 9th at Apex at this point which I don't agree with (I think every tournament within 12 months is still relevant) but yeah, if you don't discount that, it happened. Bear in mind this was right after the 1.0.4 nerfs, before 2 decent buffs (Ftilt and Dthrow) and 1 very significant buff (shurikens).
EDIT: And aMSa did indeed make 33rd at EVO, which isn't great but is nothing to scoff at. Especially considering his top 32 entry hinged on a last stock last hit situation with Dabuz that could have gone either way.

Greninja's results are not stellar but they are better than Mega Man's overall, who only just has better results in US regionals (by like 3 positions, ranked around 20th) and worse results pretty much everywhere else internationally. And to the best of my knowledge he's never come close to top 12 in a US national at least not solo, I COULD BE WRONG before you jump on me and apologies in advance if I am, because I do not remember every single result from every tournament. That is how I understand Mega Man's results overall though.

My post made no reference to Greninja having amazing results and should not be taken as such. It referred to my surprise at a Greninja/Mega Man main endorsing Mega Man over Greninja when it's pretty clear on every level that Greninja is superior. The masses can underrate Greninja as much as they want, but it's surprising to see that behavior from someone who is supposedly knowledgeable about the character.

 

[Greward]

i legitimately don't know how you can consider megaman better than peach when he doesn't even have results that are nearly on her level. Peach has the likes of EOE/Slayerz/llod, and who does MM have? zucco?

also, rob and ike are doing great at a local/major level (ryo, holy, etc), and dk has placed in top 8 at two majors consecutively (twice at sktar). robin is tearing up florida (can't recall the name of her rep), and tweek is pushing junior to his limits.

Well outside of Daiki placing 4th at the first big 3ds tournament in Japan (october) and NinjaLink getting 13th at Apex, he has nothing relevant.
Scatt got 25th at SmashCon if I remember correctly, zucco got out of pools at SKTAR 4 but I think he didn't get a great place. I don't know how ninjalink is doing atm nor if he still solo mains Mega Man.
Japan has a lot of Mega Man but they don't do too good. Some of the best Mega Man dropped him too like Daiki or Kamemushi. Nga is at the moment the best(?) Japanese Mega main but he doesn't place too well.
In Europe he's not popular, he had me but I dropped him too lol

Mega Man really isn't a good character atm, most Mega Man players have dropped him or don't get noteworthy results anymore.

@ Ffamran istudying and eddie are doing ok with Greninja, and I heard that a lot of people have a pocket greninja in France. He's a popular character in europe.

 

[Nu~]

's matchup spread imo:

-2:
(come at me)

-1:


±0:
(adv. to MK imo but MK and ROB boards say it's even so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

≥1:
notably, plus the rest of the cast I'd imagine. I didn't believe this for a long time (because if Luigi gets in he gets in hard) but the more I play this matchup the more I like it for ROB.

Not great, but not terrible by any means. Luigi, Sonic, Falcon, Diddy are good matchups to have (possibly) in your favour. He does have results going for him as well though unlike a lot of candidates for an elusive top 20 spot.

The character I think we should be questioning is Yoshi. Somehow he has worse/fewer results than ROB. Does this character beat ANYONE in the top 15-20ish of the cast, aside from ROB? For the record I think Yoshi is the better of the two, but I'm not convinced he's actually good.

Edit: re: pit vs pittoo discussion, neutral b > side b in terms of importance.

I agree with your opinion on the Pac-Man vs ROB matchup, but why do you feel that way?

I know a small handful of Pac-Man players struggle in the matchup.

 

[C0rvus]

Ninjalink, funnily enough, also plays Greninja. Or he did. Haven't heard much of anything from him as of late.

 

[Nu~]

Ninjalink, funnily enough, also plays Greninja. Or he did. Haven't heard much of anything from him as of late.

He mains greninja now with mega as a secondary

 

[RaptorTEC]

IDK how the MU is, I was thinking even because react to eggs with GP, punish yoshi's landings, but Yoshi's fair, nair, and dash are all still really good, then Raptor dropped game 1 to Gadiel (an unknown rosa from the midwest) in that MU at SKTAR 4. He won the set but that makes me question both the MU and Raptor's approach to it.

Gadiel is actually from GA and isn't bad or anything he did end up beating Keitaro. In terms of the mu I honestly have no idea how to play it anymore lol. Really weird MU imo. Seems to be even or slightly in Rosas favor though.

Also, me vs Dabuz isn't an accurate way to judge the MU hes a lot better than me. I placed 9th at ever major i went to (minus sktar) and he wins or top 3's pretty much all of them. He's on a whole different level.

As for Yoshi, he's a solid character. Nowhere near top 5 or anything but definitely somewhere in high tier (maybe bottom). He has to work really hard for kills whereas the rest of high tier and even mid tier has a noticeably easier time doing so. Yoshi is also a really difficult character to use at top level (contrary to popular belief) which is why he's not getting many results atm but that's not to say he's bad.

 

[FullMoon]

NinjaLink doesn't have a defined main exactly, but currently he's giving Greninja more focus than any of his other characters.

 

[RaptorTEC]

3.) Yoshi beats Fox, Sonic and Rosalina for starters. Probably beats Wario too. Doubt he loses to Ness, Falcon or Villager. Just stuff off the top of my head.

Yoshi in no way beats Fox. I agree with Sonic. Rosalina is even at best for Yoshi. Agree with Wario. Even with Ness or slightly in Yoshis favor. Beats Falcon and Villager.

The Yoshi community isn't scrubby. It's just a hassle trying to explain the same thing over and over again to people who think Yoshi is top 5 or "broken" "OP" or "needs nerfs". I do think some of the Yohis are too pessimistic but as a whole we're all under the same idea that Yoshi is a solid character. I have even gone out to say that I think he has the potential to be a top 8 character (although now I'm starting to think he will probably drop to 15th or so.)

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ffamran istudying and eddie are doing ok with Greninja, and I heard that a lot of people have a pocket greninja in France. He's a popular character in europe.

Cool, France aime la grenouille, mais elle n'aime pas le renard... HAHA... J'ai une grenouille dans ma poche... If only I knew some German so I could make some German Falco jokes.

Hmm, I wonder what makes l'Amphinobi so popular in France and the rest of Europe. He's not popular in Japan, right? It's mostly aMSa working Greninja. Eh, I can't remember. Anyway, Ness's Bair is strong. No wonder Shaky uses that move a lot.

 

[FullMoon]

Cool, France aime la grenouille, mais elle n'aime pas le renard... HAHA... J'ai une grenouille dans ma poche... If only I knew some German so I could make some German Falco jokes.

Hmm, I wonder what makes l'Amphinobi so popular in France and the rest of Europe. He's not popular in Japan, right? It's mostly aMSa working Greninja. Eh, I can't remember. Anyway, Ness's Bair is strong. No wonder Shaky uses that move a lot.

Greninja sees plenty of use in Japan but most of his users stick mainly to Wi-Fi instead of locals. I think when one of said users went to an offline tournament he placed higher than aMSa.

 

[Ffamran]

Greninja sees plenty of use in Japan but most of his users stick mainly to Wi-Fi instead of locals. I think when one of said users went to an offline tournament he placed higher than aMSa.

So, it's just the US that hates tongue-scarfed frogs. You'd expect Mr. Scarf himself to co-main Greninja, Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon, but nope. Hmm... I would like to see a "demographics" thing for regions using what characters. I think someone posted that here before, but I don't remember if it was here or in another thread. With some reasons too... I mean, why does France not like Fox? Or why is Yoshi more popular in Japan? What happened to the Mega Man and Little Mac fans in the US?

 

[Greward]

Hmm, I wonder what makes l'Amphinobi so popular in France and the rest of Europe. He's not popular in Japan, right? It's mostly aMSa working Greninja. Eh, I can't remember. Anyway, Ness's Bair is strong. No wonder Shaky uses that move a lot.

It's definitely the name. Quajutsu and Amphinobi are cool lol

Europe always liked the flashy characters, maybe it's the reason for so many frogs. Being super strong in the first version also helped, since a lot of players started with him and just kept at it.

 

[FullMoon]

Honestly Greninja at this point is just as good as he was on release. Sure he lacks god Up-Smash/Hydro Pump but those even now are still very good moves and still get their job done.

Meanwhile patches have given him a better F-Tilt for spacing, a better recovery by reducing Shadow Sneak's endlag (while also giving it a power boost) and a kill setup from a throw.

If Greninja is now not as strong as he was on release, it was because people became more aware of his problems. Nerfs are no excuse anymore.

 

[Ffamran]

It's definitely the name. Quajutsu and Amphinobi are cool lol

Europe always liked the flashy characters, maybe it's the reason for so many frogs. Being super strong in the first version also helped, since a lot of players started with him and just kept at it.

Really, it's the name? Welp, that explains why the US loves CAPTAIN FALCON! with his FALCON PUNCH, FALCON KICK, and RAPTOR BOOST! Please note that Captain Falcon never announces Raptor Boost. Then we question why people play as Fox, Villager, and Wii Fit Trainer. What kind of lame, generic names are those? People play Wolf? How original. It should all be about Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Bowser, Charizard, Triple D, and Dr. Who. Freaking Falco should be a beloved icon in Germany, Austria, and Japan except he's not the Falco they're looking for, so he's a fraud.

Anyway, going off with that, so if Europe is flashy, US is easy-bake and bumrushers, Japan is zone-heavy, then what does that make for Mexico, Canada, South America, Africa, Australia, and any other places I didn't mention? If we compiled a list of generalizations, there's going to be surprising overlaps. For example: Captain Falcon would fit flashy and aggression while Greninja would also fit flashy and zone-heavy. Then you have some characters like Ike, Falco, and Bowser who are in none of the 3 listed generalizations. They're not flashy, they're not really aggressive, and they're not zone-heavy. They just hit stuff.

 

[Nobie]

The only complaints I ever saw about Mega Man were a tough Sheik match-up, lack of proper ftilt, and ???? People didn't even mention his linear up b. Then now all of a sudden he sucks? I feel like the word sucks is being used in a particular way, like he's on the cusp of being great but solo maining him is increasingly unlikely. Not even customs off Palutenas seem to be griping as much.

Mega Man's charactsd type has always been one that was more vulnerable to being potentially great or terrible, and I think it's a small miracle that he's looking to be about mid tier.

One thing that might be affecting him I'd that all the characters around him are getting buffs while he gets slightly better leaf shield. But what changes would you make? Faster recovery on f smash?

 

[Locke 06]

The only complaints I ever saw about Mega Man were a tough Sheik match-up, lack of proper ftilt, and ???? People didn't even mention his linear up b. Then now all of a sudden he sucks? I feel like the word sucks is being used in a particular way, like he's on the cusp of being great but solo maining him is increasingly unlikely. Not even customs off Palutenas seem to be griping as much.

Mega Man's charactsd type has always been one that was more vulnerable to being potentially great or terrible, and I think it's a small miracle that he's looking to be about mid tier.

One thing that might be affecting him I'd that all the characters around him are getting buffs while he gets slightly better leaf shield. But what changes would you make? Faster recovery on f smash?

Was thinking about this the other day.

A frame 16 or 17 (or even 18) fsmash would be beautiful with the attack coming out 1 or 2 frames after release (instead of 9 10). Don't think it'd make the character broken as Samus' charge shot comes out f16 and charge shot travels faster and can store charge. Mostly changing the smash charge window would be awesome and true to the series. Doesn't need to be Zero umvc3 level buster, but that'd be a nice QoL change even without shaving off the startup frames.
No comment on how "viable" or "how good" he is at the moment.

Edit: forgot that the projectile hits a frame after it's made.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Ninjalink, funnily enough, also plays Greninja. Or he did. Haven't heard much of anything from him as of late.

I've been following his YouTube Channel since the Brawl days and I can confirm that he primarily plays Greninja with Megaman as his secondary and pretty impressive Shulk and Iggy pockets that he tinkers around with.

 

[Rikkhan]

So I was thinking how a tier list based on tournament results (majors) would look, I basically did this,

Winning: 100 pts
Top 4: 50 pts
Top 8: 25 pts
Top 32: 10 pts

Only CEO 2015, EVO 2015, and Smashcon were taken into account.

Tier list (top 10 only):
1.-Sheik 455
2.-Rosalina 195
3.-ZSS 185
4.-Diddy 110
5.-Pikachu 100
6.-Sonic 80
7.-Falcon 70
8.-Ness 60
8.-Fox 60
9.-Mario 35
10.-Luigi 30
10.-Villager* 30
10.-Yoshi 30


Notes:
- Some characters are pretty much carried by a single player, pikachu(ESAM), falcon(Fatality), ZSS(Nairo)
- Villager gets all his points in EVO which was Custom on.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Pretty close... aside from the top 3... At least it isn't Brawl Metaknight bad where he'd somehow have 800 points based on the same scale.

 

[Ffamran]

In other news, a Samus was able to make it to grand finals in west Michigan. Didn't win - got second instead - but still cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLjb8Uht1o8. That said, he used Ike, ZSS, Marth, and Ganondorf along the way, but it was mostly Samus. Zinoto might just be that good or he knows the MU since he also fought this other Samus who got 4th in the tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JciTXax9kw. Or, if you're like Rog who probably didn't know what Samus well enough, you get 2-0'd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u78YVV56J_o. Challonge: http://westmism4sh.challonge.com/CalderClashSingles2.

So, is Samus a really bad character? She's terribly flawed as some people believe and she's kind of a one-trick pony, but she does that one trick really well. Also, her ledge trump Bair is pretty much like ZSS's. The Utilt anti-air against Monkey Flip was pretty cool. Her out of shield Screw Attack is also pretty good.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So apparently, WFT is top 5:

Wii Fit is top 5 @Anti_SSB has opened my eyes to the truth.

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) August 26, 2015

Also, maybe Anti will be picking up WFT? Maybe we should talk WFT in here a bit.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Pretty close... aside from the top 3... At least it isn't Brawl Metaknight bad where he'd somehow have 800 points based on the same scale.

This made me laugh at the people that want to nerf Luigi.

In other news, a Samus was able to make it to grand finals in west Michigan. Didn't win - got second instead - but still cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLjb8Uht1o8. That said, he used Ike, ZSS, Marth, and Ganondorf along the way, but it was mostly Samus. Zinoto might just be that good or he knows the MU since he also fought this other Samus who got 4th in the tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JciTXax9kw. Or, if you're like Rog who probably didn't know what Samus well enough, you get 2-0'd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u78YVV56J_o. Challonge: http://westmism4sh.challonge.com/CalderClashSingles2.

So, is Samus a really bad character? She's terribly flawed as some people believe and she's kind of a one-trick pony, but she does that one trick really well. Also, her ledge trump Bair is pretty much like ZSS's. The Utilt anti-air against Monkey Flip was pretty cool. Her out of shield Screw Attack is also pretty good.

She is a bad character. But that doesnt matter. Good players are good players, unfamiliar matchups are unfamiliar.
So basically don't write off characters is the moral of the story.

 

[Lavani]

So apparently, WFT is top 5:

Wii Fit is top 5 @Anti_SSB has opened my eyes to the truth.

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) August 26, 2015

Also, maybe Anti will be picking up WFT? Maybe we should talk WFT in here a bit.

...hasn't Anti played WFT for most if not all of the game's lifespan? He plays multiple characters, but I'm pretty sure WFT's always been one of them.

 

[Sir Tundra]

In other news, a Samus was able to make it to grand finals in west Michigan. Didn't win - got second instead - but still cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLjb8Uht1o8. That said, he used Ike, ZSS, Marth, and Ganondorf along the way, but it was mostly Samus. Zinoto might just be that good or he knows the MU since he also fought this other Samus who got 4th in the tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JciTXax9kw. Or, if you're like Rog who probably didn't know what Samus well enough, you get 2-0'd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u78YVV56J_o. Challonge: http://westmism4sh.challonge.com/CalderClashSingles2.

So, is Samus a really bad character? She's terribly flawed as some people believe and she's kind of a one-trick pony, but she does that one trick really well. Also, her ledge trump Bair is pretty much like ZSS's. The Utilt anti-air against Monkey Flip was pretty cool. Her out of shield Screw Attack is also pretty good.

Hate to say it but yeah she kind of is. Is she the worst character? no... she has some things going for her like pretty good down throw followups, powershot, and OOS screwattack which is a really good punish option.

 

[Patriot Duck]

So apparently, WFT is top 5:

Wii Fit is top 5 @Anti_SSB has opened my eyes to the truth.

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) August 26, 2015

Also, maybe Anti will be picking up WFT? Maybe we should talk WFT in here a bit.

WFT in top 5 is definitely a questionable notion. What do her matchups against the top tiers look like anyway?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

She did get insane buffs. I'm not very familiar with the character but the fact that she heals 2% every time she shoots her projectile on top of her other healing is really dumb.

 

[Djent]

Probably a troll post; @DEHF C/D?

Anyway, I found it: the worst tier list:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Trifroze]

Samus' multihit attacks generally link badly, her zair only does 1% unless it's the tipper which is 1+3% (and it gets stopped by platforms), and of course she has the jab that doesn't work. All that needs to be fixed, and if they buff something I'd vouch for bombs to explode immediately on contact.

 

[Greward]

Probably a troll post; @DEHF C/D?

Anyway, I found it: the worst tier list:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I didn't know ranai was a low tier hero lol

 

[Sir Tundra]

Probably a troll post; @DEHF C/D?

Anyway, I found it: the worst tier list:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Donkey Kong top 10?

Doctor Mario Mid tier?

Villager Low tier?

Dear Lord there's so much wrong with this tier list.

 

[Blobface]

Probably a troll post; @DEHF C/D?

Anyway, I found it: the worst tier list:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

What.

And that's all I have to say about that

As for Wii Fit, has Anti stumbled across some sort of legendary tech that makes a single touch from Wii Fit trigger a 0 - death combo or something? I don't know if that's a troll post or not but if it isn't I'm curious.

 

[Ffamran]

Probably a troll post; @DEHF C/D?

Anyway, I found it: the worst tier list:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I remember someone... was it Keitaro or Gunblade saying that Angel's kind of a troll on stream - I think it was the recent SKTAR. He's actually nice, but trolls 'cause that's his thing and it's just an act. In a way, like whoever said it, it does kind of make people want to get better. Someone calls you out, so what do you do? Someone people don't care, but some people do take offense or really want to prove themselves, so they work harder and harder. I'm going to say the cutoff of his tier list is where Meta Knight is. Also, keep in mind that he lives in a region with a good Dr. Mario, Atomsk, a good Kirby, MikeKirby, a good Wii Fit Trainer, JohnNumbers, a good Charizard, BloodCross, a good Olimar, Dabuz, a good Bowser Jr., Tweek, and a good Little Mac, but I don't remember who. False having played Peach and Marth with Nario's Robin also probably influenced his tier list. Oh, and Keitaro with his Falco. I take that back, where D-list is probably the cutoff as there's nobody really who play those characters well unlike anyone in C and above. Yes, Nairo plays Lucina and Zelda, but Zelda's not exactly good and Lucina's kind of just there for Nairo.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Typically I don't like commenting on tier lists but Dark Pit being a few places above Pi makes me think this really isn't serious in any way.