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During this week's Xanadu, Pink Fresh played Lucas four times on stream and won three of those four games. Despite this, multiple commentators expressed doubt/pessimism about Lucas's viability.
"[Lucas is] a character I consider one of the worst in the game".
"One of those shaky characters people aren't quite sure where he's gonna fall".
"Is this how you concede defeat?"
I know four games at a local tournament isn't 100% telling of a character's viability. However, PF is the only high level player who represents Lucas in tournament that I know of, so this is really all we have to go by. And given his performance, I think that this might be a bit unwarranted and that maybe Lucas is being underrated.
1.) Yoshi doesn't have a single top level player maining him therefore he has like no results. Raptor, Slice and Aiba are his best players and they are barely even regional threats.
2.) Yoshi has like the scrubbiest and most deluded community ever. Been like that since the good old days of Brawl.
3.) Yoshi beats Fox, Sonic and Rosalina for starters. Probably beats Wario too. Doubt he loses to Ness, Falcon or Villager. Just stuff off the top of my head.
I think..
Yoshi is +1 against CF, MK, ROB, Wario, Mii Brawler (guest, with moves), Sonic, Luigi, Villager
Even against Rosalina, , Ness, Greninja
Even or -1: Mario, Fox, Pit
Yoshi loses -1 against Sheik, Pikachu, ZSS, Diddy
Just talking about potentially losing MUs:
- Fox might be even but the match-up isn't easy for either party. Fox just completely dominates the neutral on-stage. This is where Yoshis best stage is SV because you need the plattform to remain a good position in neutral. If you learn to completely avoid upsmash kills this is even. But Fox has the better CPs in Battlefield and Dreamland to put you on, in fact Fox is pretty broken on both stages.
- Sheik completely dominates Yoshi but we have to take human error into account and few errors = Sheik loses the stock so this is not as bad in reality as it might be on paper for some people.
- Pikachu seems to be a real threat to Yoshi. Pikachus that stay grounded are hard to even inflict damage on them.
- Diddy is probably Yoshis worst match-up. I would even go as far to put him as -2. You can't really do much to him. (Except the Diddy you're playing is @Luigi player ) He has the tools to be the safest character and punish Yoshi from a decent range while Yoshi really cannot land a kil move. In direct combat Yoshi loses because of his giant hurtbox losing (and thus any move) to fair. I think it's a really terrible match-up right now because Yoshi has no killing throw.
- Pit is a really good punish character. He can punish any aerial Yoshi spaces due his dash attack so Yoshi has to approach this Match-up very differently. I think this might be even but I haven't got a good grasp on the MU yet.
- ZSS is pretty broken. So I don't see Yoshi winning this MU. I don't have enough experience in this MU to have any elaborate opinon on this MU though.
I love how every time somebody talks about how good Yoshi is, some of their mains show up and argue as if everybody who thinks highly of the character was just some misinformed FG scrub. But then I read stuff like "Egg Toss is overrated because it doesn't work as a camping tool" on the Yoshi boards and I realize it's just them not knowing how their character works.
Don't deny Yoshis flaws. We just know what his flaws are and people are still like "Yoshi Top5, broken, op, pls nerf" and we just tell the people that this is wrong. Yoshi has flaws and weaknesses that people don't exploit enough. I still think he is Top10 though
Dabuz is an elite level player. One of the very best in the world.
Raptor is a minor regional threat. A very solid and competent player. Nothing more and nothing less.
@Yikarur
small reminder not to call characters broken when you don't want people to call your character broken.
I agree that ZSS wins the MU. We outspace Yoshi in the air, can combo him for days, have better mobility and our bAir breaks Yoshi's DJ at high percent which is pretty fatal.
The exact same thing could be said about Marth. Not sure who had it better or worse between the two characters, but Marth was definitely..... underwhelming, at Wii u release.
And then a single patch turned Luigi from arguably the worst in game [well, I never thought he was worse than lower mid pre patch but most did] to a top 3 character generally. I think a +52 boost in the tier list warrants noting for patches changing character's viability. Talk about the most buffed character in Smash history...
Time to clear up some of the stuff brought up regarding Kirby~
First, let's cover the main topic. Kirby's viability. Honestly, I thought it was widely known that Kirby isn't viable, but arguments have been going on about this. Kirby will require a secondary to cover his bad match-ups, or will be the secondary to help another character. However, some people have interpreted "unviable" as Kirby being a low-tier character that has absolutely no relevance in the current meta-game, smiting any bringing up of him as if he was as bad as Zelda.
Emblem Lord said it best, Kirby's mobility isn't good enough to warrant a high-tier character. While he has top-tier frame data, his mobility holds him back as he's forced to approach in most cases. "He has the reward, he does not have the means". One of the biggest reasons that Kirby has a lack of representation is because he requires a patient player. This is also the key to MikeKirby's success with the character, as he's constantly praised by commentators due to his patience. Kirby has the tools to sit around and wait, but unlike most characters who have this attribute, he has no means of outright forcing approaches.
For example, Fox and Kirby are both across the stage from each other. Fox can shoot lasers, but Kirby can crouch under them. Both of them are forced to approach, but neither has the incentive to do so. In this situation, many Kirby players will go all-out aggro and try to work their way into Fox's space to start an 80% combo on him. They then take unnecessarily large amounts of damage before finally landing the hit and taking the lead, which is lost shortly after. MikeKirby would rather wait it out until the Fox finally comes in, then utterly demolish him.
This usually decides how Kirby's match-up with a character is going to go. Do they force Kirby to approach? Does Kirby force them to approach? Is there no reason for either to approach? This is what decides whether Kirby is going to get his top-tier reward or not. It also explains why Kirby has good MUs against top tiers, but bad MUs against the lesser characters... but more on that later.
Kirby's customs-off recovery isn't some top tier amazing thing, but it isn't as bad as you're playing it off to be. At most, it's an above average recovery. I'm too tired to go through the entire recovery ranking check-list, but we aren't King Dedede. Kirby has five mid-air jumps along with his default recovery, giving him all of his aerial options for quite some time, then allowing him to resort to his actual recovery move if needed. While Kirby's air speed is incredibly low, his hurtbox while jumping isn't expanded beyond belief like King Dedede's, as he still remains one of the smallest targets in the game. Kirby's floaty, so he has quite a bit of air time to use, with an average airdodge and decent aerials to defend himself with. If you challenge Kirby incorrectly while he's going through his jumps, you run the risk of getting D-Air'd or B-Air'd and getting yourself killed. It isn't just "wait for him to spam airdodge and kill".
Along with that, if he uses Final Cutter and you challenge the move incorrectly, you're going to die regardless of your percent. While Final Cutter won't outright kill an opponent until 20% or so, you're put directly under Kirby and have basically no escape options for D-Air or a F-Air stage spike. The recovery move itself is subpar and can be easily punished as Kirby has no protection on his back, but there's still risk involved. Slightly off-topic, but Kirby can also space Final Cutter to either grab the ledge as Kirby raises his sword so it's an "instant ledge snap", or can clip through the stage and automatically land on it (this was in Brawl and Project M, too).
Yeah no. There are some match-ups I play where I think "OMG Marth destroys this character." I don't get that feeling against Kirby (even offline in tourney). Marth wins definitely. But the MU is not as horrible as it would seem on paper. On paper probably looks like a 65 35 but in practice 60 40 makes more sense.
This is basically what you're inferring every time you open your mouth about Kirby. You overrate the utter hell out of the character after making a ton of baseless claims and then make even more stupid remarks when people ask you to validate the things you say. stop pls thx<3
Kirby's definitely not top (or high) tier. But I don't think anyone said that. Emblem Lord was spot on in that when Kirby gets in, he tends to have good reward, but he really just can't get in.
With the improvements to Inhale, Kirby does relatively well against characters with projectiles as their standard special (or an improved mobility option like the Arts). But against characters with awful projectiles, projectiles in a different moveslot, or good approaches without projectiles, he does much more poorly.
Like... Sonic is a nightmare, Yoshi is a nightmare, Villager is a nightmare, and so on.
The way I see it, ducking under projectiles as Kirby does a lot for him. Instead of being forced to approach and being walked out, Kirby can duck and make he opponent come to him. A character like Luigi, for example heavily relies on his fireballs to get a grab. When this happens to Kirby, he can duck under fireballs and down tilt Luigi to keep him from grabbing. Kirby actually has some pretty good options out of crouch, such as down-tilt, side smash, and up tilt, depending on the character. The fact that Kirby can duck under a lot of grabs is really effective, since he can punish with all those listed options.
So the thing about crouching is it generally presents an alternative to shielding or other defensive tactics as shaya mentioned. However I do think it adds rather significant benefits.
Crouching is a 1 frame movement reducing the height of your hurtbox. Its general use is to avoid being hit just like shield. Unlike shield it won't protect the whole characters frame and isn't as easy to use out of run (it's biggest disadvantage vs shield or short characters would never shield), but it also avoids the shieldstun and shield lag drop allowing for significantly more reliable punishes (for this reason shielding combats SH aerials but crouching is better when you're ABLE to).
At the very least, these traits force the opponent to respect crouch which limits their ability to attack and pressure their opponent when done well. A strong case could also be made that smart baits will allow players to open up an offense.
It's not seen too often because most good characters either don't have particularly good crouches or don't have great options from crouch.
Aside from size good ground options are important, options in crouch are better, being as to crawl is also a big plus.
As pika in true neutral I would say I'm crouching 2/3rds of the time which I sense my opponents feel makes me a ****.
Kirby's crouch is being oddly underrated right now. As @Mo433 said, Kirby's crouch is especially useful for two things - avoiding projectiles, and avoiding grabs. For some odd reason, nobody has noted that Kirby's D-Tilt is one of the only moves in the game that doesn't raise his crouching hurtbox. Kirby has the lowest crouch in the game, while also having the ability to attack out of it without giving up stature. Characters that get their grab crouched under can struggle to punish this, too. Along with that, as Nobie said, this tilt can lead into F-Smash, but also a grab and PP U-Tilt. Even if it doesn't trip, at higher percents, you can lead it into another D-Tilt, giving more chance for a F-Smash KO.
Also, Kirby's D-Tilt, just like his crouch, puts him in his lowest position on f1. There's no crouching animation or anything for D-Tilt, he just... flattens. Asdioh actually found an odd thing in that if you D-Tilt > Walk > D-Tilt, Kirby doesn't fully rise while he's walking and continues to keep his low stature during it. I have no idea how this works, but it does! This makes me question if Kirby actually has multiple "sizes" that the game loads seperate to his animations...
Anyways, Kirby's options out of crouch aren't just D-Tilt. I'm confused on where that's coming from, to be honest. We have our D-Tilt (low stature, trips, f4, in front), U-Tilt (starts combos, f4, both sides), D-Smash (kills, f10, both sides), F-Smash (kills, f13, long range, in front), dash grab (throws, f8, both sides), Inhale (copy abilities, f14, in front), Stone (super armor, f10, long range, both sides) and Copy Abilities (NEEDLES). Along with that, you can use perfect pivots directly out of crouches to extend the punish range. I've brought it up before, but due to D-Tilt retaining low stature, Kirby can perfect pivot directly out of crouch and buffer D-Tilt to move around without losing height (the frames between PP > D-Tilt are negated due to the odd thing stated above).
Now, let's talk about crouching under projectiles. Here's a list:
Crouching:
Projectiles we can crouch under...
Mario's Fireball
Luigi's Fireball
Rosalina's Luma Shot
Bowser Jr's Cannonballs
Diddy's Peanut Popgun
Link's Arrows + Boomerang
Toon Link's Arrows
Sheik's Needles
Samus' Missiles
Zero Suit's Paralyzer
Pit's Arrows
Robin's Thunder Spells
Duck Hunt’s Clay Pigeon + Gunmen
Fox's Lasers
Falco's Lasers
ROB's Lasers
Villager's F-Air and B-Air
Wii Fit Trainer's Sun Salutation
Dr. Mario's Pills
Mega Man's Lemons + Crash Bomber
Mewtwo's Shadow Ball
Ryu's Hadouken
All Z-Airs (if you count these)
Notes:
Mario's Fireballs, Dr. Mario's Pills, Pit's Arrows and Mewtwo's Shadow Ball can all potentially hit him. The former three all have their projectiles beaten out by jab when it'll hit crouching Kirby, so it's still easily avoidable. When fully charged, it isn't recommended to try and crouch under Mewtwo's Shadow Ball.
Mega Man's Mega Buster hitbox will still hit crouching Kirby, but D-Tilt outranges it if he's walking in with F-Tilt.
All variants of Ryu's Hadouken are beaten by crouching.
Kirby can punish certain characters after crouching under their projectile by using their Copy Ability, such as Sheik, Robin and Villager. This is especially useful as it no longer allows Sheik to safely throw out needles and forces her to approach.
You can also crouch under things like Peach's Turnip, Robin's Arc Fire, Link's Bombs, etc. but I don't count those for obvious reasons.
As said earlier, this prevents many characters from walling out Kirby and forcing him to approach. This is incredibly useful in several match-ups and is a vital thing to learn when playing as Kirby. Straying off the topic for a quick second, it isn't suprising that this is the case, as ever since Kirby's Adventure, crouching has been a good way to avoid attacks from bosses. Sakurai and HAL Laboratories has brought up using Kirby's crouch to avoid enemy attacks and retaliate several times in development interviews for Kirby games, so it'd make sense if it was an intentional mechanic.
Cassio's explanation of crouching is probably the best way to put it. For Kirby, he can negate his glaring weakness in several match-ups by playing patient using his crouch. This is dependent on several factors, such as what moves we crouch under, what moves we jab out, the copy ability, etc.
For a brief example, I'd like to touch on Kirby's crouch against Zero Suit Samus. I'm not going to comment on the match-up itself, this isn't "Kirby crouches against ZSS 0:100 lelelel", this is just how crouching works against her.
When Kirby crouches against her, she can use F-Tilt (angled down) (f6), D-Tilt (f8), D-Smash (f20) and Plasma Whip (f22/32?). Her D-Air also works, but why is she using that?
Both F-Tilt and D-Tilt outrange Kirby's D-Tilt solidly, but suffer as they aren't safe on shield and require strict positioning to avoid getting hit. While these options exist, they risk more than they give due to the low damage. Her D-Smash and Plasma Whip are both safe on shield when spaced properly, but they're both 20+ frame moves, making them easy to react and punish. While at this point it'd be good to mix-up (ie: space for F-Tilt/D-Tilt to force shield, use D-Smash), Plasma Whip only hits crouching Kirby with the tip and initial hitbox in front of her, while D-Smash is no longer safe when used this close. The main reason I used to think crouching against her was absolutely useless was because of Flip Kick, as it forces shields and is impossible to punish due to Kirby's mobility. Once I stopped being stupid and learned about how good Kirby's SHAD is... a lot changed.
It should also be noted that her grab can catch Kirby, but this is only when it's spaced perfectly AND retracting, giving plenty of time to react. If Kirby enters his idle animation where he looks away from the screen, however, she can grab Kirby by spacing the ending hitbox that curves downwards. Also, if Kirby ishit out of crouch by her D-Smash, the stun is weakened significantly as you're hitting with the weaker part and getting it crouch cancelled, which reduces it. Oh, and the reason I say f22/32 is because I'm not exactly sure when the spaced hitbox will actually hit Kirby, so I just used the initial and ending hitbox. It's most likely in-between those two. if only hungrybox crouched at the invitational...
---
Now, going back to the "what moves we jab out", I actually have a list of that, too!
Kirby's Jab:
Clanks/Beats/Trades with (Projectiles)...
Mario's Fireball
Luigi's Fireball
Peach's Turnips
Bowser Jr's Uncharged Cannonballs
Diddy Kong's Peanuts
G&W's Food Thingies
(Toon) Link's Boomerang + Arrow
Samus' Missiles (Regular and Smash)
ZSS' Paralyzer
(Dark) Pit's Arrows
Robin's El Thunder + Arc Fire
Duck Hunt’s Clay Pigeon + Trick Shot
King Dedede's Gordo
Pikachu's Thunder Jolt
Greninja's Water Shuriken
Robotic Operating Buddy's Gyro
Ness' PK Fire
Villager's Lloid Rocket + F-Air + B-Air + Dash Attack + Timber
Olimar's Pikmin Toss + F-Smash
Dr. Mario's Pills
Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit
Mega Man's Lemons + Metal Blade + Crash Bomber
Ryu's Hadouken
Clanks/Beats/Trades with (momentum based moves)...
Luigi's Green Missile
Peach's Peach Bomber
Yoshi's Egg Roll
Bowser Jr's Clown Kart Dash
Wario's Bike
Ganondorf's Flame Choke
Meta Knight's Drill Rush + Dimensional Cape + Mach Tornado
Fox's Illusion
Falco's Phantasm
Pikachu's Quick Attack
Greninja's Shadow Sneak
Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost
Villager's Ridden Lloid Rocket
Sonic's Spindash and Spin Charge
Notes:
Mario's Fireballs and Dr. Mario's Pills can potentially arch over Kirby and hit his head. If they're going to hit Kirby while jabbing, crouching will avoid them.
Jabbing out G&W's food bits is relatively useless as it'll more than likely hit Kirby's head.
Link's Arrows can hit Kirby's head if nearing full charge, or fully charged. It's best to crouch under these while jabbing if they'll hit crouching Kirby.
Pit's Arrows can be angled to hit Kirby's head, although if this happens they can be crouched under. It's best to just shield them while reserving Jab/Crouch for Dark Pit.
Robin's Arc Fire will clank with Kirby's Jab then ignite in front of him. Due to Arc Fire's initial size, it'll more than likely clank with Kirby's Jab rather than hit his head. If it hits his head, he will fall out directly after similar to PK Fire.
Thunder Jolt's arch can potentially hit Kirby, it's best to avoid these in other ways.
Greninja's Water Shuriken is transcendent when fully charged and will go through Kirby's Jab. When uncharged, there's a chance it'll go through and hit Kirby due to the small size yet incredible speed, although rare. If charged even slightly it'll always clank, however.
When clanking with ROB's Gyro, the item vanishes instantly. If nearing full charge or fully charged, it will beat Kirby's Jab outright.
Ness' PK Fire will ignite after clanking with Kirby's Jab. Regardless of spacing, it will deal 2% and have Kirby fall out directly after before Ness can act.
Villager's F-Air and B-Air will hit Kirby's head when used grounded. It's impossible for either move to hit crouching Kirby, however.
Olimar's Pikmin are outright beat and killed when thrown at Kirby. If they make it through somehow, they will always deal one hit and then die. Along with that, it should be noted Kirby's Jab clanks with Olimar's F-Smash and leaves the Pikmin vulnerable before they can retreat.
Pac-Man's melon and key will beat Kirby's Jab, while the rest are beaten.
Jabbing out lemons is relatively useless as the others will come and hit you.
Ryu's red Hadouken thingy will beat Kirby's Jab, but all variants are beaten by crouch.
Luigi's Green Missile, Peach's Peach Bomber, Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost, Ganondorf's Flame Choke and Meta Knight's Mach Tornado are all beaten by Jab.
Bowser Jr's Clown Kart Dash and Wario's Bike will trade with Jab. Clown Kart Dash will deal 4% while Bike deals 5%, whereas Kirby deals 2% to each. Wario's Bike will sometimes deal 10% or no damage at all, mostly dependant on how fast he's going while travelling.
Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape and Greninja's Shadow Sneak are reliant on the reappearance. If they appear behind Kirby, they will go unscathed. Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape attack will always trade with Kirby's Jab.
Meta Knight's Drill Rush is incredibly inconsistent and will more than likely beat out Kirby's Jab. I don't understand why they sometimes trade, it just happens.
Fox and Falco's Illusion and Phantasm will clash, take 2% and then land in front of Kirby. If they're hit out before the hitboxes, they'll just take the entire rapid jab.
Pikachu's Quick Attack is unreliable and inconsistent. Sometimes they'll clash and both go without taking any damage, sometimes they'll both take 2%, sometimes Quick Attack will lose, sometimes Jab will lose. Kirby's N-Air can easily deal with Quick Attack however, as it's active his entire short hop and puts Pikachu in RCO lag.
Sonic's Spindash and Spin Charge will always clank with Kirby's Jab, but on rare occurrences are outright beat by it, as Kirby's rapid jab will start after clanking and punish them.
When you combine Kirby's crouch, jab, shield and SHAD, he doesn't struggle as much as you'd expect him to. For example, let's touch on RK Joker's "Villager is a nightmare".
Villager has his F-Air, B-Air, Dash Attack, Lloid Rocket, Timber, Wood Piece, and F-Smash as projectile moves. His main three being F-Air, B-Air and Lloid Rocket. If Kirby shields Lloid Rocket, he risks being grabbed during shield stun as Villager follows directly behind it. Whereas, if Kirby jabs it out, he can punish Villager's grab attempt or escape the situation altogether. Along with that, while we already are incredibly hard to hit with F-Air and B-Air due to our short height, it's impossible to land either move while Kirby's crouching. As Villager needs to fast fall into the ground to hit Kirby by default, this allows us to punish his main spacing moves if he uses them too close.
In this same match-up, Villager's Copy Ability allows Kirby to take any of his projectiles and use them against him. If you're crouching under F-Air or B-Air, it can simply be pocketed. If he's using F-Smash on the ledge in hopes of killing Kirby, it can be pocketed. If Lloid Rocket gets near Kirby without Villager constantly pressuring, it can be pocketed (although useless because it can be re-pocketed by Villager). When you take into account the throw combos that are possible with pocketed projectiles due to the buffs, he's risking a lot when trying to force Kirby to approach. In turn, Villager is forced to approach us and fight against our superior CQC game, allowing us to get the reward we want.
---
I normally don't talk about Kirby's match-ups, but I'll bring up Sheik for right now. There's still some doubts about Kirby going even with Sheik, so I'd like to clear some things up. It should be noted that pre-patch customs-off Kirby didn't really go even with Sheik, which is where some people may be getting their information.
First, let's bring up crouching (prepares for Shaya's C/P and Tobi's funeral). Crouching isn't a make or break thing against any character, but it's important in this match-up. For some reason, people think that Kirby being able to crouch under things like Sheik's F-Smash is useful. I don't have a full list of things we can crouch under against Sheik, because it isn't important. The only things that are important is that we crouch under Sheik's grab and needles. Sheik can no longer force approaches on Kirby as we can crouch under her needles and punish with our own, while she can't do the same to us. In turn, this forces Sheik to approach us as she can't sit back and relax without getting pestered with needles. Along with that, being able to crouch under Sheik's grab brings higher risk to the table whenever she uses it, as she may end up getting combo'd into oblivion or getting herself killed. Sheik can dash grab Kirby while he's crouching if spaced on top of him, although this is still out-ranged by D-Tilt.
So... Kirby can force Sheik to approach. Now what? Sheik is overall one of the easiest characters for Kirby to combo due to her fall speed. This allows him to get great reward off of his combo starting moves (U-Air, N-Air, D-Air, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Throw, etc.), averaging in at around a guaranteed 60% when he starts his combo. Along with that, due to the buffs, Kirby can replace combo finishers such as U-Air and U-Throw with Inhale to gain her abilities, so he's keeping all the damage while still getting the ability instead of having to compensate.
Kirby also has much stronger killing power when compared to Sheik in this match-up. All of his smashes will kill her relatively early, B-Throw kills at the ledge with Rage and the f1 vulnerability can easily be abused with Kirby's long-lasting D-Air. Sheik, on the other hand, actually struggles to kill Kirby. Her smash attacks are all fairly weak and punishable, D-Throw 50/50s are completely avoided when they start killing due to Kirby's multiple jumps and weight, and it's much easier for him to avoid Bouncing Fish set-ups as they almost always don't true combo at kill percents while easily avoiding 50/50s due to Kirby's multiple jumps and airdodge.
Sheik is still Sheik though, so yeah...
there's much more to this MU but it's getting late, I'm tired and this post has been sitting as a draft all day... maybe I'll do that advantage/disadvantage/neutral thing for Kirby and Sheik tommorow, idk. there may be random things I missed or confusing parts because I'm stupid, just ask me questions if you really care.
this is seriously the sloppiest post I've made, I'm disappointed in myself
edit: also, I don't think I stated it. I'll touch on it later but right now Kirby's high mid tier, basically where he was in Brawl (but overall better because Smash 4 removed a lot of jank). seagull joe gave him a good placing, around 28~31 is where I'd place him.
Don't think the Yoshi community is exactly scrubby, at least back in brawl. Smash 4 prolly moreso cause we have for glory people who complain/use him and think he's a god tier character while there's some people like say Tero back then who'd say silly stuff like Little mac was our worst MU. So the scrubby Yoshi mindset is more of this generation of players, 2014/2015.
The Yoshi community isn't scrubby. It's just a hassle trying to explain the same thing over and over again to people who think Yoshi is top 5 or "broken" "OP" or "needs nerfs". I do think some of the Yohis are too pessimistic but as a whole we're all under the same idea that Yoshi is a solid character. I have even gone out to say that I think he has the potential to be a top 8 character (although now I'm starting to think he will probably drop to 15th or so.)
Eh, I disagree and I kinda expected both of you to see where I'm coming from [regarding the Yoshi community]. Just a little reminder: in the days of Brawl it took years of convincing the Yoshi community as a whole that your character doesn't actually go even with Meta Knight.
With Meta Knight.
Not directed at you two but you know these people existed, they were numerous and they were vocal all across the boards. When it finally dawned on the Yoshi community that MK solidly beats Yoshi a new fad started where Yoshi players would claim that MK was actually the only thing that held Yoshi back from being a competent character when the rest of the world had long figured out that characters like Falco murdered Yoshi. And when the few remaining Yoshi players that actively went to tournaments kinda came to accept that, yet another new fad started where the Yoshi community would go on to complain about how misunderstood their characters supposedly was and how he was actually mid-tier and not actually bad, when he was just that - a bad character.
And now that Yoshi is actually a really freaking good character all I hear Yoshi players say are complains about how Yoshi supposedly isn't actually really good and that everybody who thinks otherwise must be some random FG scrub because there's no way somebody could possibly think of Yoshi as a good character except online warriors, right?
So the way I see it, the Yoshi community has been in constant denial over their character since the release of Brawl and I consider that to be extremely scrubby. Feel free to disagree if you must but I'll tell you one thing: it's no coincidence that those members of the Yoshi community that do not fit into that stereotype and have remained level-headed about their character [like Slice and Raptor], are just about the only ones that would perform well with the character in both Brawl and Smash 4.
Don't deny Yoshis flaws. We just know what his flaws are and people are still like "Yoshi Top5, broken, op, pls nerf" and we just tell the people that this is wrong. Yoshi has flaws and weaknesses that people don't exploit enough. I still think he is Top10 though
I agree with that [and also agree that Diddy is pretty bad for Yoshi] except that I don't see a lot of people actually putting him in the top 5. The highest I've seen him at was 7th on Abadango's list - is he random FG scrub too now? According to Slush's logic he should be. A lot of the time though you'll just hear people talk about how overrated Yoshi is, about his 'bad' neutral, about him not or barely being top 15 and him losing to every single top tier character [which makes sense if your top tier consists of Sheik and Sheik only I guess?].
I mean if we're talking about Yoshi's flaws that's fine. But if Yoshi's 'bad' neutral game [which consists of the best command grab in the game, an amazing jab, an incredibly good nair and a very good dash attack] is enough to place him somewhere between 12th and 15th these days then how come nobody denies Fox rightful place in the top 8 despite his seriously bad disdavantaged state and abusabe recovery? There's clearly a double standard here and a lot of the time it's the Yoshi players' fault for overemphasizing his weaknesses and failing to mention that the character has tons of strengths to make up for them.
And that's not directed at people like you or Raptor because I know you're rather level-headed and self-conscious about these things. But it's definitely happening, in this thread and on the Yoshi boards.
I finally watched Sethlon play his Roy, and while he still is missing some Sm4sh knowledge about MUs, his Roy is way different than the normal aggro Roys I've seen. The man uses the two hit DED to constantly poke, and seems to use Roy as less of a rush down and more of a, well, poke and punisher - like a mix of Marcina and Falcon. It's like instead of high risk, high reward, his Roy goes for measured risk, above average reward.
This is opposed to Static Manny's more aggro Roy, who rarely uses DED, with an emphasis on Roy's super safe Nair.
It's weird seeing Static Manny be so aggro, and it looks like the Roy meta is in a similar place to the early Sonic meta, where you had the campy/aggro split. I don't know which one is more optimal Roy play, or if neither are.
So, is Samus a really bad character? She's terribly flawed as some people believe and she's kind of a one-trick pony, but she does that one trick really well. Also, her ledge trump Bair is pretty much like ZSS's. The Utilt anti-air against Monkey Flip was pretty cool. Her out of shield Screw Attack is also pretty good.
I had to play dirty with that samus to take one. You can see in the video how much i wish DH could kill.
Dude got a nasty read and sniped me out of the air game 1 with a charge shot, and he knows how to follow up on stuff. Also he picked Ike and committed crimes against animals on me game 3.
People around here been saying he's a hidden gem that could probably get on PR but he doesn't do a lot of tournaments. Unfortunately west Mi is kinda isolated from the center of the region.
Edit: my experience with FG Samuses was not helpful.
I thought the idea that Kirby does well against Sheik is that if Kirby has the lead, Sheik can't needle camp, and if it's up close then Kirby can compete with Sheik on even terms.
When it finally dawned on the Yoshi community that MK solidly beats Yoshi a new fad started where Yoshi players would claim that MK was actually the only thing that held Yoshi back from being a competent character when the rest of the world had long figured out that characters like Falco murdered Yoshi.
Hey let's be fair, a number of brawl character mains acted exactly the same when they refused to admit that IC's, falco and Olimar had their number as well. Except even after like 5 years of tournament failure they still blamed MK for all their woes even when they got consistently knocked out by other characters.
In case anyone hasn't noticed (I didn't for quite a while), Kirby's Copy Abilities now correlates to the changes to the said moves.
Kirby's Luigi Fireballs now do 5% far and has FAF of 43. I'm sure Sheik's needles were also changed. So now the only superior thing about Kirby's needles are it hits even lower than Sheik and NOPE, no crouching under it.
Thank God. I was scared I'd be facing against 1.0.0 Fireballsd against me. I mean, Luigi getting out-hadoken'd? Nightmare.
In case anyone hasn't noticed (I didn't for quite a while), Kirby's Copy Abilities now correlates to the changes to the said moves.
Kirby's Luigi Fireballs now do 5% far and has FAF of 43. I'm sure Sheik's needles were also changed. So now the only superior thing about Kirby's needles are it hits even lower than Sheik and NOPE, no crouching under it.
Thank God. I was scared I'd be facing against 1.0.0 Fireballsd against me. I mean, Luigi getting out-hadoken'd? Nightmare.
That's a cool way to test it. I'm curious if their idle crouching animations messed anything up though, because both places it lists Dark Pit having a shorter duck than Pit by a few spots. If it made a big enough difference (obviously it doesn't), that'd be pretty hilarious imo.
What? Against a bad Pit maybe, (or Bad Pit if he charges ) but as a consistent and viable thing to do? No. You're better off jumping since you at least close the gap somewhat.
That's a cool way to test it. I'm curious if their idle crouching animations messed anything up though, because both places it lists Dark Pit having a shorter duck than Pit by a few spots. If it made a big enough difference (obviously it doesn't), that'd be pretty hilarious imo.
Wouldn't be the first time Pit and Dark Pit proved how inconsistent somebody's testing was. Smash lab said they had different air speeds and then the first perfect pivoting video said they had different distances, both completely false.
I still don't understand why they didn't give Kirby his sliding kick, so that he can have a mobility option to abuse his low crouch height with. That alone would make Kirby a much more competent character.
Makes about as little sense as Wario missing his Shoulder Bash. Heck, even less for Kirby, since Kirby had that move for much longer.
I finally watched Sethlon play his Roy, and while he still is missing some Sm4sh knowledge about MUs, his Roy is way different than the normal aggro Roys I've seen. The man uses the two hit DED to constantly poke, and seems to use Roy as less of a rush down and more of a, well, poke and punisher - like a mix of Marcina and Falcon. It's like instead of high risk, high reward, his Roy goes for measured risk, above average reward.
This is opposed to Static Manny's more aggro Roy, who rarely uses DED, with an emphasis on Roy's super safe Nair.
It's weird seeing Static Manny be so aggro, and it looks like the Roy meta is in a similar place to the early Sonic meta, where you had the campy/aggro split. I don't know which one is more optimal Roy play, or if neither are.
Darkwolf's Roy is a little like Sethlon's except his seems more like a mixture of Ganondorf and Marth with some Shulk which makes sense since he also uses Shulk. In a way, Roy being like Captain Falcon can lead to the hyper aggressive Fatality play style or the reserved, punisher ZeRo play style.
I had to play dirty with that samus to take one. You can see in the video how much i wish DH could kill.
Dude got a nasty read and sniped me out of the air game 1 with a charge shot, and he knows how to follow up on stuff. Also he picked Ike and committed crimes against animals on me game 3.
People around here been saying he's a hidden gem that could probably get on PR but he doesn't do a lot of tournaments. Unfortunately west Mi is kinda isolated from the center of the region.
Edit: my experience with FG Samuses was not helpful.
I have yet to watch your set with him, but he managed to take a game with Ganondorf against TECHnology's Meta Knight: https://youtu.be/M4q4WUaLH08. You'd think Ganondorf would be easily harassed and comboed by Meta Knight, but mistake and one read and you're screwed.
What? Against a bad Pit maybe, (or Bad Pit if he charges ) but as a consistent and viable thing to do? No. You're better off jumping since you at least close the gap somewhat.
"Mario's Fireballs, Dr. Mario's Pills, Pit's Arrows and Mewtwo's Shadow Ball can all potentially hit him. The former three all have their projectiles beaten out by jab when it'll hit crouching Kirby, so it's still easily avoidable. When fully charged, it isn't recommended to try and crouch under Mewtwo's Shadow Ball."
I'd just shield it, to be honest. I don't want to leave the ground against Pit.
Darkwolf's Roy is a little like Sethlon's except his seems more like a mixture of Ganondorf and Marth with some Shulk which makes sense since he also uses Shulk. In a way, Roy being like Captain Falcon can lead to the hyper aggressive Fatality play style or the reserved, punisher ZeRo play style.
I have yet to watch your set with him, but he managed to take games with Ganondorf against TECHnology's Meta Knight: https://youtu.be/M4q4WUaLH08. You'd think Ganondorf would be easily harassed and comboed by Meta Knight, but mistake and one read and you're screwed.
Every time he landed the door breach kick off flame choke I cringed and cheered at the same time. It was gorgeous and awful. Like MK was a balloon Ganon was trying to pop with his heel.
That's incorrect in several places and is pretty apparent when you actually look at the list. This method of testing doesn't evade the idle animations that occur once in a while.
That's incorrect in several places and is pretty apparent when you actually look at the list. This method of testing doesn't evade the idle animations that occur once in a while.
You forget that D3 has a disjointed hitbox to challenge a lot of Ganon's ****, but other than that I can see Ganon having a slight advantage over him. It's not as ridiculously overblown as you're making it out to be. Maybe with customs on, but not in a vanilla environment.
Everything else I really don't care to address at this point. Yeah, I felt D3 went better against some of the other swordies a while ago, but between buffs and my lack of time/patience, I can't really say one way or the other.
Do you think that D3 has an advantange against Mewtwo by any chance? Mewtwo obviously outspeeds Dedede in most respect and like with most characters, D3 is combo food. On the other hand though, D3's hammer outranges Mewtwo's most of Mewtwo's moveset, D3 dies the latest to Mewtwo's kill throws, and Mewtwo's anti-Gordo moves aren't that great with F-air having short range and a small hitbox, B-air being slow, Confusion also being a bit slow and with N-air and Jab 1 failing to deflect.
Not the most relevant matchup to have an advantage in, but it would be something if the matchup's like I think it is.
"Mario's Fireballs, Dr. Mario's Pills, Pit's Arrows and Mewtwo's Shadow Ball can all potentially hit him. The former three all have their projectiles beaten out by jab when it'll hit crouching Kirby, so it's still easily avoidable. When fully charged, it isn't recommended to try and crouch under Mewtwo's Shadow Ball."
I'd just shield it, to be honest. I don't want to leave the ground against Pit.
There is no general consensus because a good half of the tierlists that are being posted have Roy above Marth while the others have Marth above Roy. I personally think that the arguments in Marth's favor are a lot stronger.
Yeah, it sucks that we don't have those fun things anymore, but at least on the bright side, we get 5 frames less with Water Shuriken and a whole lot less frames with Thunder and its variations, as well as some other Neutral Bs.
Do you think that D3 has an advantange against Mewtwo by any chance? Mewtwo obviously outspeeds Dedede in most respect and like with most characters, D3 is combo food. On the other hand though, D3's hammer outranges Mewtwo's most of Mewtwo's moveset, D3 dies the latest to Mewtwo's kill throws, and Mewtwo's anti-Gordo moves aren't that great with F-air having short range and a small hitbox, B-air being slow, Confusion also being a bit slow and with N-air and Jab 1 failing to deflect.
Not the most relevant matchup to have an advantage in, but it would be something if the matchup's like I think it is.
All Mewtwo has to do to stop Gordos is throw Shadow Balls. Even the weakest will do so long as they're not super stale. Heck Mewtwo can just throw tons of balls at Dedede while he's at it, while he has little hope of catching Mewtwo. Uthrow may not kill well but putting D3 offstage makes it hard for him to avoid taking a bunch of damage.
As long as Mewtwo doesn't get baited by D3's jumps (his own bair is good at challenging Dedede's range), he shouldn't have too much trouble at all.
Yeah, it sucks that we don't have those fun things anymore, but at least on the bright side, we get 5 frames less with Water Shuriken and a whole lot less frames with Thunder and its variations, as well as some other Neutral Bs.
Roy's disadvantaged state make him rather unwieldly at high level. You lose even a little neutral and it could be your stock, he has a good advantaged state... But not nearly as good as other chars have on him due to his difficulty landing.
That's incorrect in several places and is pretty apparent when you actually look at the list. This method of testing doesn't evade the idle animations that occur once in a while.
I have yet to watch your set with him, but he managed to take games with Ganondorf against TECHnology's Meta Knight: https://youtu.be/M4q4WUaLH08. You'd think Ganondorf would be easily harassed and comboed by Meta Knight, but mistake and one read and you're screwed.
People still seem to think "lol Brawldorf" when it comes to many of Ganondorf's MU's, but MK is like most of Ganon's non-high tier MUs in that it's volatile and no more than a slight advantage either way. Even Ganon's bad high tier MUs are rarely worse than 40-60 due to his raw power.
If I may, I'd like to chime in here. I also believe Pac-Man is a tough matchup for R.O.B. because of R.O.B.'s size and speed mainly. Bonus Fruit is slightly more versatile than Gyro when Pac-Man actually has the fruit in his hands, and if Pac-Man grabs Gyro he has full control, only really needing to watch out for lasers. Hydrant is tough for R.O.B. to work around since his damage output is so lackluster that he needs to commit to a smash attack to knock it away and it keeps Pac-Man from dying to down throw -> u-air at percents where it no longer combos. Up close R.O.B. would seem the advantage since down tilt is faster than any of Pac-Man's normals (frame 3, Pac-Man's fastest normal is frame 4), but Pac-Jump is frame 1 and ignores shields so R.O.B. has to prioritize staying back a little. R.O.B. forces Pac-Man to always recover low since he can d-air through Pac-Man's side B if it's timed poorly. R.O.B.'s large hurtbox and poor air speed make him especially susceptible to air dodge punishes from Power Pellet (air dodges which can be prompted if Pac-Man has his fruit fully charged); if R.O.B. has to commit to an aerial to stop the pellet, that can also be read and punished with a Key.
I think it might be slightly in Pac-Man's favor (-1 for ROB). I want to play it more, but Pac-Man is extremely rare.
I also think Jigglypuff and Little Mac are bad matchups for R.O.B. Raffi at least agrees with me on the latter, other ROBs (including the other ROB in my scene) scoff at the idea but don't realize what shield pushback is and that ROB's grab range is really bad.
I have yet to watch your set with him, but he managed to take games with Ganondorf against TECHnology's Meta Knight: https://youtu.be/M4q4WUaLH08. You'd think Ganondorf would be easily harassed and comboed by Meta Knight, but mistake and one read and you're screwed.
If you wanna see MK steamroll Ganon search up Sebrik. Might not be on youtube tho i watched it on stream. Won game 1 then lost game 2 then he played super aggressive for some reason and won by ****ting on his landings.
I think the twitch channel is called vsgc(?) don't quote me.
edit: tech cleaned his ass after game 1 nd made him go ZSS lol.
Fox might be even but the match-up isn't easy for either party. Fox just completely dominates the neutral on-stage. This is where Yoshis best stage is SV because you need the plattform to remain a good position in neutral. If you learn to completely avoid upsmash kills this is even. But Fox has the better CPs in Battlefield and Dreamland to put you on, in fact Fox is pretty broken on both stages.
