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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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DunnoBro

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He does? I think his terribly placed sweetspots are what holds the character back the most because it limits his reward in advantaged state so much.

:059:
Just good, not top tier. I'd say on par with doctor mario. Remember a lot of characters barely have a notable advantaged state at all.

Marth's might be overall inferior, but he gains advantage more often and has a pretty good reward off-stage. Though mileage varies a lot for good edgeguard rewards.

I've been wanting to ask Yoshi mains, how is Luigi vs Yoshi? Our players are having hell with him and I want to study it more.

(And also, remember that Mr. CC SD'd twice in Top 32 of EVO. Just sayin')
Annoying but luigi's favor. He has to approach unsafe on the ground or aerial mix-ups that fireballs stuff out hard(especially b-reverse out of dash), don't spam dash grab like in most MUs or stationary fireballs. SH Dair beats both of these options.

After that, just stay conservative and don't die. Yoshi wins the neutral but he has to win it a LOT or edgeguard for an early kill to actually get a notable lead since rage luigi kills yoshi ridiculously early.
 
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Routa

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But having a good approach tool isn't a must have for good character. I mean Ike lacks safe approach tool, but he is still considered to be high tier.
So I don't think Roy is worse than Ike or Marth because of it.

Edit: mah grimmer sykz
 
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ZTD | TECHnology

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I have yet to watch your set with him, but he managed to take games with Ganondorf against TECHnology's Meta Knight: https://youtu.be/M4q4WUaLH08. You'd think Ganondorf would be easily harassed and comboed by Meta Knight, but mistake and one read and you're screwed.
He took one game off me with Ganon and then I figured out what not to do. Did you see the game afterwards? It was not close. I took both Game 1 and 3 from his Ganondorf.

The reason he got 2nd and not 3rd is because he CPed me with ZSS (our worst MU). Jay is definitely talented and I have nothing but respect for him but please use the full facts. Thanks.
 
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Gunla

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I'd still say that Roy is much better than something like Doc. Not to discredit either character (I play both as a secondary), as I think they are solid characters in the right hands that have those disadvantages.

While Roy's sweetspots are rather odd, I'll admit, Roy can at least recover and not get gimped at horrendously low percents. Roy has matchups that work for him, and some very good movement. Roy's advantage is indeed limited by his sweetspots but has a very good, solid aerials like Fair, whose sourspot has its uses.

In the general advantage, Doc can lose the state rather quick because of the fact that one false move against a fast character will gimp. A character who loses like that, to such early tactics and critical yet easy to accidentally execute errors. However, if Doc has a sizable advantage, he can sink a KO with Fair rather early (yet it can be quite hard to actually land down, because it's rather easy to see), but Roy has options to seal the lead other than trying to prevent the opponent from getting in close, and decent approach tools.

Roy is certainly held back by his sourspot placements and not perfect approach tools, but not at Doc's level. (For reference, I believe that Roy is Mid-High, and Doc is at Mid, Mid-Low.)
 

DunnoBro

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I was only comparing roy's advantage state to doc's. Not their overall viability.

Scary, potent, but not much guaranteed stuff.
 
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Wintropy

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...Since when was Ike high tier?
This discussion has been going on for some time now. Post-patch, many Ike mains assert that their character possesses the tools to hold his own in a top-level competitive environment.

Gonna tag @ Nidtendofreak Nidtendofreak , he knows waaaay more 'bout this stuff than I do.

I'd still say that Roy is much better than something like Doc. Not to discredit either character (I play both as a secondary), as I think they are solid characters in the right hands that have those disadvantages.

While Roy's sweetspots are rather odd, I'll admit, Roy can at least recover and not get gimped at horrendously low percents. Roy has matchups that work for him, and some very good movement. Roy's advantage is indeed limited by his sweetspots but has a very good, solid aerials like Fair, whose sourspot has its uses.

In the general advantage, Doc can lose the state rather quick because of the fact that one false move against a fast character will gimp. A character who loses like that, to such early tactics and critical yet easy to accidentally execute errors. However, if Doc has a sizable advantage, he can sink a KO with Fair rather early (yet it can be quite hard to actually land down, because it's rather easy to see), but Roy has options to seal the lead other than trying to prevent the opponent from getting in close, and decent approach tools.

Roy is certainly held back by his sourspot placements and not perfect approach tools, but not at Doc's level. (For reference, I believe that Roy is Mid-High, and Doc is at Mid, Mid-Low.)
I think Roy's kiiiinda (and I do stress kiiiinda) like Mac or Doc: he's a shark. A shark's scary as hell in the water, but doesn't pose much of a threat on dry land.

By that I mean Roy's fundamentally terrifying in his own element (on-stage, advantage rushdown tactics), but outside of it (disadvantage, full-stop), he falls apart.

The fact that he has disjoints, a solid grab game, reasonable frame data and decent kill power is a boon, to be sure, but I wonder how sustainable it is against an opponent that just disrespects his rushdown options.

From personal experience, fold when he's in neutral and Roy will walk all over you like a dirt road; circumvent his full-on pressure and get him out of the metaphorical water and he's much more docile.

EDIT: In hindsight, Doc doesn't really qualify for this distinction. He's too versatile for what he is.
 
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HeavyLobster

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Since latest patch. He is somewhere between low high tier and high mid tier. I am not the best person ask why is he considered to be in between high and mid tiers, so I suggest you to ask it from someone els.
I'm a bit skeptical on Ike as a high tier even though he now has some amazing tools, as he also still has a few glaring issues. He doesn't seem to be all that great vs. camping and his recovery is pretty one-track. He's at least high-mid though, as his disjoints are pretty scary and his neutral is strong for a heavyweight. He feels solidly above-average with weaknesses that keep him from being dominant.
 

Routa

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I'm a bit skeptical on Ike as a high tier even though he now has some amazing tools, as he also still has a few glaring issues. He doesn't seem to be all that great vs. camping and his recovery is pretty one-track. He's at least high-mid though, as his disjoints are pretty scary and his neutral is strong for a heavyweight. He feels solidly above-average with weaknesses that keep him from being dominant.
I wouldn't call Ike's recovery too linear (and therefore not a big issue). Characters with projectiles are a bit issue due to they can force Ike to approach which is kinda bad situation for Ike. But then again we have stages with plathforms. And Ike is able to even out with 2 hits and is able to KO you at 90% so...
 

Ffamran

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He took one game off me with Ganon and then I figured out what not to do. Did you see the game afterwards? It was not close. I took both Game 1 and 3 from his Ganondorf.

The reason he got 2nd and not 3rd is because he CPed me with ZSS (our worst MU). Jay is definitely talented and I have nothing but respect for him but please use the full facts. Thanks.
Whoops, I remembered the entire set with only Ganondorf. He did take games with Ganondorf and ZSS, but he only took a game with Ganondorf. Is SkaterJayy the Rice or Trevonte of west Michigan? As in a player who uses multiple characters and is overall good at the game and with all of them.
 

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Welp I got tag'd in.

Recovery: Quick Draw isn't nearly as linear as it appears assuming Ike has to recovery high (AKA when he can actually use QD in the first place). Obviously if it hits something he gets to act again afterwards. But outside of that, lets say he gets it charged (not hard to do). He can either recover high and land on a platform lag free, recover mid level and land on the main platform lag free, aim low level and still land on the main platform lag free, aim for the ledge, aim under the ledge and still snap upwards to grab it, or aim for the person trying to gimp him (which can and has killed in tournaments). He has a lot of options, more so than the person trying to gimp him. If they commit to any option in most cases Ike can safely switch to another. Or if they wait thinking that Ike has to go to the ledge they can then be caught off guard by Ike releasing QD early.

Aether thankfully has a larger snap range than one would think. Roughly one spinning sword length away in all directions. Aether can also poke up through the stage and punish people trying to hit him from there.

While the directions they travel are linear, they both have more options attached to them than it first appears. Truthly I'd say his recovery is average if not ever so slightly above average when you consider how many characters really only have an Up B for their recovery option.

Projectiles: I'm hesitant to link to one video of SM against a MegaMan because to be frank I don't think the MegaMan was very good. Didn't use pellets at all until the last game. But what he did do was use a looooot of Metal Blade, Leaf Shield, and Crash Bomber. It was actually quite rare that any of them hit SM, and they fought on Final Destination. Ike has a very good Dash -> Shield in terms of when he can cancel the dash into shield. On top of that his Dash Attack has crazy range, doesn't get clanked out by anything, and can hit the person twice if hits a projectile and the user at the same time for 24% damage. Are projectiles annoying? Of course they are, they always are. But Ike doesn't struggle against them as much as some characters with no reflectors/projectiles of their own. He can actually punish them once he gets into mid range, which is important. If they're getting punished, they're going to stop using them at that range.

Advantages: Edgeguarding. Bluntly I think Ike has the best onstage edgeguarding in the game by a significant amount. Eruption simply covers everything: its all on the Ike player as to if its hitting or not in the majority of cases. Hits farther down than the invisible ledge snap range, hits high enough to hit people on the Battlefield side platforms, has enough lingering frames to hit people as they grab the ledge. While have a massive hitbox that also hits behind him. With super armour. If they're somebody with a projectile, Ike can just jump and then start charging during the time the character off stage can throw a projectile at him and have it hit. Only exceptions really are Links' boomerang and ROB's laser.

To drive home my point: if Sheik has to use Vanish she should be dead. The timing is easy. She can't flinch him as long as he's gotten a 3/4 charge. Aiming behind or above him won't work, and snapping the ledge will just have her face running into the lingering frames. And if she somehow manages to get on stage and shield because we screwed up the timing, fully charged Eruption insta-breaks shields.

And then we have the options other than Eruption: walk-off fair is very deadly and difficult for many characters to get past. Walk-off Bair and Uairs are also viable options. If we have the stock lead we can just run off, trap you in aether, and drag you down with us for an easy win. Downward angle Ftilt also hits from on stage, as does Dsmash (barely), Fsmash, back part of Usmash, kinda Utilt, Dtilt...

If the character managed to get to the ledge safely, Ike STILL has a lot of options. Eruption when positioned correctly can cover literally every option for getting up. Usmash can do the same with some difficulty. SH Uair, particularly against tall characters, also can work. Once you're off stage against Ike you're simply having a baaaaad day.

On stage, Ike has a long list of short combos that are dealing as much damage as other characters' long combos. They can start with Grab, Nair, Dtilt, in some cases Dair, Uair, or Fair can start short combos as well. Throws that lead into kill confirms (with strict timing), and Uair on par with Rosalina's with 16 active frames to punish air dodging with (which we can use out of a throw either in a combo, or just jump let the opponent air dodge and THEN hit them), Nair leading into kill confirms all the way up to like 100% (with strict timing again). Or once you start hitting 100%, Ike can just start throwing out moves and almost anything will kill you. Dash Attack at the middle of the stage? Good chance you're dead now. Ftilt? Dead. Utilt? Dead. Fair? Potentially dead, if not you're at the edgeguarding game now. Bair? Bair will kill you. Dthrow? If Ike has enough rage yes that too will kill you.

Disadvantage: Ike only has one critical one I feel: juggle breaking. He's not so hot at it. Not quite as bad as it first appears, but not great at it. His Bair hits frame 7 and more importantly: hits more than just behind him. It covers most of his body and slightly in front of him as well. So against characters with no real disjoint, hammering away at Bair can get out of sticky situations. Randomly trying Aether to get the Super Armour also works. Counter.... rarely works but does on occasion particularly if the opponent goes into auto-pilot. And then it can kill them because it has a rather high knockback growth rate.

At low percents though? Ya Ike's pretty much just taking the damage against some characters until he starts popping out of their combos. He doesn't mind too much as that just leads into him in rage with is freaking terrifying. But its not exactly a good thing either.

So we have a character with great range, comboing abilities, strict but existent kill confirms, the ability to just toss out moves at random to get a kill, the best onstage edgeguarding in the game, airdodge eating moves, a kill throw balanced out by "somewhat predictable but not really" recovery that can kill you for attempting to stop him, stuck grumbling about projectiles but can get around them, and a juggling weakness. Seems like lower end of high tier to me. Results are starting to back it up as well: Ryo keeps stomping Static Manny and nearly beat ESAM at EVO Pools (in ESAM's words, if he has just held down during Aether Ryo would have won), Ryuga took a set off of Ally, SM is winning things and was one stock away from EVO Top 32, we have an Ike in Europe starting to win things as well.
 
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ZTD | TECHnology

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Whoops, I remembered the entire set with only Ganondorf. He did take games with Ganondorf and ZSS, but he only took a game with Ganondorf. Is SkaterJayy the Rice or Trevonte of west Michigan? As in a player who uses multiple characters and is overall good at the game and with all of them.
Pretty much. From my understanding, he has a buttload of characters around the same level but his ZSS is what he will use if he needs to fall back on something in a bad situation. I do know that regular Samus is the character he wants to main/enjoys the most in the game. So props to him for being a boss with her. Samus is pretty free for MK but I saw him so some sweet stuff in other sets.
 
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Ffamran

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Pretty much. From my understanding, he has a buttload of characters around the same level but his ZSS is what he will use if he needs to fall back on something in a bad situation. I do know that regular Samus is the character he wants to main/enjoys the most in the game. So props to him for being a boss with her. Samus is pretty free for MK but I saw him so some sweet stuff in other sets.
Hmm... That's probably the same in Rice and Trevonte's situation. Rice seems to like Dr. Mario, but his Fox is his best character while Trevonte likes Palutena (and Captain Falcon), but Sheik is his best character. Ito counts, right? He likes Meta Knight, but Diddy was his best character when Diddy reigned. Now Diddy's not insane anymore and Meta Knight's good, so yay, a win-win situation. Does west Michigan have a PR? The PR thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-power-rankings-directory-project.401710/, would be interested since some states like CA is split into several parts: NorCal, SoCal, and San Diego.
 

LancerStaff

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Welp I got tag'd in.

Recovery: Quick Draw isn't nearly as linear as it appears assuming Ike has to recovery high (AKA when he can actually use QD in the first place). Obviously if it hits something he gets to act again afterwards. But outside of that, lets say he gets it charged (not hard to do). He can either recover high and land on a platform lag free, recover mid level and land on the main platform lag free, aim low level and still land on the main platform lag free, aim for the ledge, aim under the ledge and still snap upwards to grab it, or aim for the person trying to gimp him (which can and has killed in tournaments). He has a lot of options, more so than the person trying to gimp him. If they commit to any option in most cases Ike can safely switch to another. Or if they wait thinking that Ike has to go to the ledge they can then be caught off guard by Ike releasing QD early.

Aether thankfully has a larger snap range than one would think. Roughly one spinning sword length away in all directions. Aether can also poke up through the stage and punish people trying to hit him from there.

While the directions they travel are linear, they both have more options attached to them than it first appears. Truthly I'd say his recovery is average if not ever so slightly above average when you consider how many characters really only have an Up B for their recovery option.

Projectiles: I'm hesitant to link to one video of SM against a MegaMan because to be frank I don't think the MegaMan was very good. Didn't use pellets at all until the last game. But what he did do was use a looooot of Metal Blade, Leaf Shield, and Crash Bomber. It was actually quite rare that any of them hit SM, and they fought on Final Destination. Ike has a very good Dash -> Shield in terms of when he can cancel the dash into shield. On top of that his Dash Attack has crazy range, doesn't get clanked out by anything, and can hit the person twice if hits a projectile and the user at the same time for 24% damage. Are projectiles annoying? Of course they are, they always are. But Ike doesn't struggle against them as much as some characters with no reflectors/projectiles of their own. He can actually punish them once he gets into mid range, which is important. If they're getting punished, they're going to stop using them at that range.

Advantages: Edgeguarding. Bluntly I think Ike has the best onstage edgeguarding in the game by a significant amount. Eruption simply covers everything: its all on the Ike player as to if its hitting or not in the majority of cases. Hits farther down than the invisible ledge snap range, hits high enough to hit people on the Battlefield side platforms, has enough lingering frames to hit people as they grab the ledge. While have a massive hitbox that also hits behind him. With super armour. If they're somebody with a projectile, Ike can just jump and then start charging during the time the character off stage can throw a projectile at him and have it hit. Only exceptions really are Links' boomerang and ROB's laser.

To drive home my point: if Sheik has to use Vanish she should be dead. The timing is easy. She can't flinch him as long as he's gotten a 3/4 charge. Aiming behind or above him won't work, and snapping the ledge will just have her face running into the lingering frames. And if she somehow manages to get on stage and shield because we screwed up the timing, fully charged Eruption insta-breaks shields.

And then we have the options other than Eruption: walk-off fair is very deadly and difficult for many characters to get past. Walk-off Bair and Uairs are also viable options. If we have the stock lead we can just run off, trap you in aether, and drag you down with us for an easy win. Downward angle Ftilt also hits from on stage, as does Dsmash (barely), Fsmash, back part of Usmash, kinda Utilt, Dtilt...

If the character managed to get to the ledge safely, Ike STILL has a lot of options. Eruption when positioned correctly can cover literally every option for getting up. Usmash can do the same with some difficulty. SH Uair, particularly against tall characters, also can work. Once you're off stage against Ike you're simply having a baaaaad day.

On stage, Ike has a long list of short combos that are dealing as much damage as other characters' long combos. They can start with Grab, Nair, Dtilt, in some cases Dair, Uair, or Fair can start short combos as well. Throws that lead into kill confirms (with strict timing), and Uair on par with Rosalina's with 16 active frames to punish air dodging with, Nair leading into kill confirms all the way up to like 100% (with strict timing again). Or once you start hitting 100%, Ike can just start throwing out moves and almost anything will kill you. Dash Attack at the middle of the stage? Good chance you're dead now. Ftilt? Dead. Utilt? Dead. Fair? Potentially dead, if not you're at the edgeguarding game now. Bair? Bair will kill you. Dthrow? If Ike has enough rage yes that too will kill you.

Disadvantage: Ike only has ono critical one I feel: juggle breaking. He's not so hot at it. Not quite as bad as it first appears, but not great at it. His Bair hits frame 7 and more importantly: hits more than just behind him. It covers most of his body and slightly in front of him as well. So against characters with no real disjoint, hammering away at Bair can get out of sticky situations. Randomly trying Aether to get the Super Armour also works. Counter.... rarely works but does on occasion particularly if the opponent goes into auto-pilot. And then it can kill them because it has a rather high knockback growth rate.

At low percents though? Ya Ike's pretty much just taking the damage against some characters until he starts popping out of their combos. He doesn't mind too much as that just leads into him in rage with is freaking terrifying. But its not exactly a good thing either.

So we have a character with great range, comboing abilities, strict but existent kill confirms, the ability to just toss out moves at random to get a kill, the best onstage edgeguarding in the game, airdodge eating moves, a kill throw balanced out by "somewhat predictable but not really" recovery that can kill you for attempting to stop him, stuck grumbling about projectiles but can get around them, and a juggling weakness. Seems like lower end of high tier to me. Results are starting to back it up as well: Ryo keeps stomping Static Manny and nearly beat ESAM at EVO Pools (in ESAM's words, if he has just held down during Aether Ryo would have won), Ryuga took a set off of Ally, SM is winning things and was one stock away from EVO Top 32, we have an Ike in Europe starting to win things as well.
I get what you're saying, but I don't really think that's enough. Against high tiers, sure he KOs in like two hits, but not everybody only plays the fragile speedsters. You have characters like Pit who can devastate his recovery pretty much by existing... He has too many bad matchups to be reliable.
 

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Pretty much. From my understanding, he has a buttload of characters around the same level but his ZSS is what he will use if he needs to fall back on something in a bad situation. I do know that regular Samus is the character he wants to main/enjoys the most in the game. So props to him for being a boss with her. Samus is pretty free for MK but I saw him so some sweet stuff in other sets.
I was one of the people he did Samus stuff to.
 

|RK|

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@Reserved Also, I didn't realize we had the jab option on Lloid Rocket, lol. At least I know for whenever I play Cree next, lol
 

Nidtendofreak

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I get what you're saying, but I don't really think that's enough. Against high tiers, sure he KOs in like two hits, but not everybody only plays the fragile speedsters. You have characters like Pit who can devastate his recovery pretty much by existing... He has too many bad matchups to be reliable.
Not really? His worst MU is Sheik at 40-60. SM has taking a set off of VoiD, we do have proof that its certainly a winnable MU.

Sonic loses to Ike. I think Static Manny having to go off of Sonic when going up against Ryo should say it all.

Ike most likely beats Rosalina. Not by very much mind you, I'm talking like 55-45. Its the fact that he kills Luma so easily that gives us the edge. Large number of other top tiers are in the 55-45 or 45-55 range.

Pit doesn't really stuff us on recovery. He'll tack on some extra damage for sure, but the arrows aren't going to keep us from recovering. Have yet to hear of an Ike having difficulty getting back when facing against Pit so the Side B ain't doing as much as it would appear on paper either.

Ike is reliable now. He is very much a showcase of your abilities in fundamentals, almost to an extreme point. Only Eruption can really be called cheesy. Everything else relies solely on your ability to fight in all areas. If you're good at all areas, you can reliably take out just about anyone regardless of character. If you have an area you're weak in, Ike will likely magnify that fact and the opponent will easily pick up on it. That's kinda why a lot of starting Ikes struggle badly against Sonic even though we have the edge for example: you've got to get good at sticking to the right moves in order to beat Sonic. If you don't, you'll get run over very quickly and very badly.
 

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In other news, a Samus was able to make it to grand finals in west Michigan. Didn't win - got second instead - but still cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLjb8Uht1o8. That said, he used Ike, ZSS, Marth, and Ganondorf along the way, but it was mostly Samus. Zinoto might just be that good or he knows the MU since he also fought this other Samus who got 4th in the tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JciTXax9kw. Or, if you're like Rog who probably didn't know what Samus well enough, you get 2-0'd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u78YVV56J_o. Challonge: http://westmism4sh.challonge.com/CalderClashSingles2.

So, is Samus a really bad character? She's terribly flawed as some people believe and she's kind of a one-trick pony, but she does that one trick really well. Also, her ledge trump Bair is pretty much like ZSS's. The Utilt anti-air against Monkey Flip was pretty cool. Her out of shield Screw Attack is also pretty good.
West mi sucks as a region.

Doesn't say much for Samus.
 

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So apparently, WFT is top 5:


Also, maybe Anti will be picking up WFT? Maybe we should talk WFT in here a bit.
Soon... we rise... In all seriousness, I love this character to death and she first became one of my mains because her WTF-ness had me lawling into oblivion when she was first announced but now I just find her to be a super satisfying character to play as. Her playstyle is like a weird mix of Snake and Sheik and this last update fixed nearly every major problem she had (weird grab, awkward hitboxes, hard to kill with, etc) so I can only see her growing in the future.
 

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Roy's the worst swordsman?
Umm... is there something I'm missing here?
Definitely a weird statement but not quite as weird as the whole swordsman situation in this game. Thanks to all the buffs that most of them have received, none of them feel that bad anymore. :4myfriends::4link::4lucina::4marth::4metaknight::4miisword::4robinm::4shulk:were all pretty cringe worthy when the game first came out while :4feroy::4tlink: have been kinda meh the whole time they've been in the game. Now nearly all of them are almost unquestionably mid tier with many people arguing that :4marth:and:4metaknight: have really bright futures ahead of them. Based on this, it's hard to say who's the worst now (that title would have easily gone to :4miisword: last year) because so many of them have practically become entirely different characters since then.
 

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Soon... we rise... In all seriousness, I love this character to death and she first became one of my mains because her WTF-ness had me lawling into oblivion when she was first announced but now I just find her to be a super satisfying character to play as. Her playstyle is like a weird mix of Snake and Sheik and this last update fixed nearly every major problem she had (weird grab, awkward hitboxes, hard to kill with, etc) so I can only see her growing in the future.
Can someone remind me why WFT is bad again? She *feels* high tier to me.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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Problem with Ike being high tier is that so many other characters got buffed/nerfed that the whole region around him expanded in size. Don't know what to call it anymore.
 

RaptorTEC

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Eh, I disagree and I kinda expected both of you to see where I'm coming from [regarding the Yoshi community]. Just a little reminder: in the days of Brawl it took years of convincing the Yoshi community as a whole that your character doesn't actually go even with Meta Knight.

With Meta Knight.


Not directed at you two but you know these people existed, they were numerous and they were vocal all across the boards. When it finally dawned on the Yoshi community that MK solidly beats Yoshi a new fad started where Yoshi players would claim that MK was actually the only thing that held Yoshi back from being a competent character when the rest of the world had long figured out that characters like Falco murdered Yoshi. And when the few remaining Yoshi players that actively went to tournaments kinda came to accept that, yet another new fad started where the Yoshi community would go on to complain about how misunderstood their characters supposedly was and how he was actually mid-tier and not actually bad, when he was just that - a bad character.
When I started playing in 2011 it was already generally accepted that Yoshi didn't go even with MK. I heard about people thinking it was even but that wasn't just the Yoshi community it was everyone in the early metagame. I remember reading posts. And no I never remember the community as a whole claiming MK was his only bad mu. We all hated Falco with a passion and knew he had other troublesome mu's. The only thing I'll stand by is Yoshi being an underrated character in Brawl. He definitely was better then what people thought and "misunderstood" to an extent. I think this is just a case of the vocal minority being loud. Even now in the unpopular opinion thread in the Yoshi board you can see a handful of us arguing he is a solid character.

And now that Yoshi is actually a really freaking good character all I hear Yoshi players say are complains about how Yoshi supposedly isn't actually really good and that everybody who thinks otherwise must be some random FG scrub because there's no way somebody could possibly think of Yoshi as a good character except online warriors, right?

So the way I see it, the Yoshi community has been in constant denial over their character since the release of Brawl and I consider that to be extremely scrubby. Feel free to disagree if you must but I'll tell you one thing: it's no coincidence that those members of the Yoshi community that do not fit into that stereotype and have remained level-headed about their character [like Slice and Raptor], are just about the only ones that would perform well with the character in both Brawl and Smash 4.
Like I said, some of them are being too pessimistic but they're trying to get the same point across that I have multiple times to many people. Yoshi may be a solid character but atm he's overrated and people need to understand his flaws before they start calling him a top tier character who needs nerfs. A lot of us are quick to jump to the FG scrub accusation because at this point it's bewildering that anyone truly believes he is an OP character. I haven't seen too much of that here since everyone seems to be rational, but it does happen a lot. Mainly twitch chats tbh though and I guess that shouldn't be taken seriously.



I agree with that [and also agree that Diddy is pretty bad for Yoshi] except that I don't see a lot of people actually putting him in the top 5. The highest I've seen him at was 7th on Abadango's list - is he random FG scrub too now? According to Slush's logic he should be. A lot of the time though you'll just hear people talk about how overrated Yoshi is, about his 'bad' neutral, about him not or barely being top 15 and him losing to every single top tier character [which makes sense if your top tier consists of Sheik and Sheik only I guess?].

I mean if we're talking about Yoshi's flaws that's fine. But if Yoshi's 'bad' neutral game [which consists of the best command grab in the game, an amazing jab, an incredibly good nair and a very good dash attack] is enough to place him somewhere between 12th and 15th these days then how come nobody denies Fox rightful place in the top 8 despite his seriously bad disdavantaged state and abusabe recovery? There's clearly a double standard here and a lot of the time it's the Yoshi players' fault for overemphasizing his weaknesses and failing to mention that the character has tons of strengths to make up for them.

And that's not directed at people like you or Raptor because I know you're rather level-headed and self-conscious about these things. But it's definitely happening, in this thread and on the Yoshi boards.

:059:
Yoshi's neutral game is not bad. I wish people would stop saying that. Another common misconception is that Yoshi has trouble landing. No, just no
 

Fatmanonice

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Can someone remind me why WFT is bad again? She *feels* high tier to me.
Can get camped out, not the best approach options, doesn't really have any reliable OH GOD, GET OFF ME moves (maybe ftilt and single jab on the ground but air pressure is hard to handle), no reliable combo/kill throws, etc. This isn't to say that people won't figure out ways around these with time because she's got a really nice toolkit for those that choose to dabble with her and put up with her eccentricities.

Add in: I once saw Roy as the best swordsman on paper but actual tournament results seem to show that he suffers from a lot of same problems that Little Mac does: can hit like a truck but mistakes he makes can be heavily capitalized on.
 
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Nu~

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Can get camped out, not the best approach options, doesn't really have any reliable OH GOD, GET OFF ME moves, no reliable combo/kill throws, etc. This isn't to say that people won't figure out ways around these with time because she's got a really nice toolkit for those that choose to dabble with her and put up with her eccentricities.
Kinda hard to camp out an opponent that can passively heal themselves if you sit back.

Unless you can heal with her...Hmmm
 

C0rvus

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So this is a thing. Someone was talking about ESAM picking up Yoshi a while back.

https://twitter.com/pg_esam/status/636561535075262464

That's not a thing anymore.
This... Was not a surprise. Pikachu is undoubtedly better than Yoshi, and I can't imagine what he would cover. Kind of a shame, but at the same time Esam is better off focusing on Pikachu. Samus for Luigi seems shaky, but he knows better than I do.
 

RaptorTEC

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This... Was not a surprise. Pikachu is undoubtedly better than Yoshi, and I can't imagine what he would cover. Kind of a shame, but at the same time Esam is better off focusing on Pikachu. Samus for Luigi seems shaky, but he knows better than I do.
I'm not surprised by this. It was only a matter of time tbh. Yoshi is a character you have to put a lot of work into and not just someone you can have as a secondary. If someone is to take Yoshi to top level it will be a Yoshi main.
 

Fatmanonice

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Kinda hard to camp out an opponent that can passively heal themselves if you sit back.

Unless you can heal with her...Hmmm
It takes awhile though and it's not perfect. Deep breathing has to recharge and it's not hard to knock her out of the sun salutation, not to mention that it's launch speed can easily be intercepted on cue by even the slower reflectors in the game like Ness's bat. Some players like to jump off the stage, charge and launch it for a quick 2% but you forfeit the neutral in the process. It's nice to have but it's hardly game changing if you're against someone who's really aggressive at camping mid stage (which is why Sheik and ZSS are still pretty infuriating matchups). On the upside, WFT can do a little camping of her own too so she can be just as big of a pain to some characters.
 

**Gilgamesh**

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I don't know how I feel about Ike but I do feel like he's bottom of high tier or at the top of mid-tier, but that really depends on how he performs at top level against the top tiers if he gets the chance anyway since that's the most important aspect at nationals/majors. I believe Ike struggles against

:4sheik: - I believe that Mr.R / ZeRo has a nice advantage for them if they face any Ike since sheik can exploit Ike options very nicely.

:4zss: - I honestly believe that Zero Suit rekts Ike at Top level, I mean we already know how Nairo (ZSS) does against big / heavy characters .

:rosalina: - I can see Ike doing decently well against Rosa but as we all know Dabuz is a fortress and I can also see how Ike can struggle against Rosa.

:4pikachu:- The only Pikachu that gets top placing is Esam and I don't even want think about how that can turn-out

:4myfriends:- I believe he will struggle with these characters the most at Top Level due to all the aforementioned characters having a more threatening neutral, better disadvantage and a better advantage state against Ike. 3 of these 4 characters are also highly mobile and have faster attacks against Ike allowing him to be overwhelmed much more easily then them being overwhelmed by him. Not trying to say Ike is bad or anything but like most characters who have nearly a worse everything compared to the top tiers they will tend to struggle against them in the whole spectrum of the top tiers.This also give reason as to why every Major/National consists mostly of top tiers in Top 8 or lowered tiered characters such as Donkey Kong or Pac-man with higher tiered secondaries to back them up. Even Fatality who had an amazing run at Smash con was shut down by :4zss: and especially by :4sheik: /: which is why later on down the line I expect for players to pick up secondaries to help their mains against their really bad MU with a top tier(s) if they want to win that is.
 
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Djent

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I'm not sure that :4samus: actually beats :4luigi: but I'm pretty sure :4miigun: does (with access to "customs"). (S)he basically uses the same strategy as ESAM displayed in the MU, but (s)he's arguably better at it.

Missiles are as good as Samus's at this point, grenades are still pretty silly, plus the character also has access to charge shot and bombs just the same. Tiny Gunner still has the issue of particular smashes not working properly, but then again so does Samus, and this issue can be mitigated in the former case by 1/4 size. Gunner's mobility specs are superior and (s)he arguably possesses a better grab (which unfortunately comes with underwhelming throws for anything but positioning, but w/e). To add insult to injury, Gunner can even dress up as Samus, as if to say "you can't even top me aesthetically, you wench!"
 

HeavyLobster

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Problem with Ike being high tier is that so many other characters got buffed/nerfed that the whole region around him expanded in size. Don't know what to call it anymore.
Ike I think is somewhere in Falcon tier. Not quite a standard tourney placer and has a couple of issues but is really dangerous and capable of doing work at a high level. Ranked somewhere around 11th-15th best.
 

Rashyboy05

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How does the Mii Gunner vs. Luigi MU work out? Particularly the 21x2 sets. I feels like Gunner can zone out Luigi with Grenade Launch, Flame Pillar and Bomb Drop. Granted, Gunner is still screwed once Luigi grabs him/her but Luigi may have a hard time getting in for the grab.
 
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NachoOfCheese

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Granted, the entire universe implodes into itself once Luigi grabs him/her
Fixed it.

Jk. In all seriousness, I can see it being in gunner's favor. Gunner's fair could be a problem for Luigi too. Gunner has a good offstage edgeguarding game with the projectiles you mentioned, which is good because Gunner doesn't have to commit at all to use them from the stage. So Cyclone wont screw you over.
The Gunner has to play the neutral very well in order to beat Luigi. I can't put a number on the matchup. It's rarely played so take this theorycraft with a grain of salt.
 
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