Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Mii Brawler can't be too good anymore with out customs and how is little mac, Dr Mario, and Robin going to be more viable than Falco, Jiggs, Toon Link or even Link? Hell even WFT. Also like Olimar is highly viable since when and how can you say Ryu and Roy are highly viable when there is no real proof? Like yeah they're good but there isn't really and like video proof. Just my opinion but I think this list isn't accurate.

Emblem Lord just top 32'd at a NJ regional. I think that says something to his viability. There's also trela and 6wx who has won locsls with him same with Emblem Lord. The question is if you're paying attention or not.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ryu's not even super fully developed and he's already doing about as well as he is. I think that stands as testament to the character's strength. I don't think he'll be a largely dominant metagame changer, but I do think he's very much tournament usable as most who I've seen dedicate themselves to him have actually pulled results, like Emblem Lord, Trela, and 6WX.

 

[Kaladin]

Has anyone (@Emblem Lord ?) tested exactly what he can dragon punch out of? Like, can you dragon punch out of Sheik fair strings? Cuz that'd be a game changer if you don't get baited.

 

[Noa.]

...

Ok I have a question.

Do you guys...want Marth to be top tier? Do you want to lose to him?

Seems like non-Marth mains complained about his nerfs more then Marth mains.

If you were a melee head that means you been losing to Marth for nearly a decade.

Is it a comfort zone thing?

I want Marth to be high tier in this game. Like Falcon, Mario, Wario level.

It's just weird having a smash game in which Marth is not a great character.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah no. There are some match-ups I play where I think "OMG Marth destroys this character." I don't get that feeling against Kirby (even offline in tourney). Marth wins definitely. But the MU is not as horrible as it would seem on paper. On paper probably looks like a 65 35 but in practice 60 40 makes more sense.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I want Marth to be high tier in this game. Like Falcon, Mario, Wario level.

It's just weird having a smash game in which Marth is not a great character.

I agree they should give him his GR chaingrab back.

 

[Noa.]

I agree they should give him his GR chaingrab back.

Lol we could do without things like that.

Idk what you could buff on Marth and not make him a dominating character.

I guess his UpB is pretty unremarkable. Especially compared to brawl.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Lol we could do without things like that.

Idk what you could buff on Marth and not make him a dominating character.

I guess his UpB is pretty unremarkable. Especially compared to brawl.

At this point I can only think of a few things.

- Slight improvement on Fair hitbox, nothing drastic
- FSmash can hit people on BF plats and tip reliably from it, it's kind of janky as it is now

That's....all I can think of that'd be reasonable for me atm, I'm not a gigantic Marth player but if you asked me "make him great but not stupidly dominant" those two would roll off my tongue the fastest. I don't know if they'd do wonders but they're certainly improvements I'd welcome.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Ok, I think my standards for what counts as viable was way to loose. Now I would consider the list to be this.

Highly Viable:
Somewhat Viable:
Not Viable:

I can't see Olimar being highly viable considering his Sheik MU. Kirby hard-counters him as well, as Olimar basically can't do anything from the moment he gets inhaled. (This didn't used to be as much of an issue but Kirby now can inhale opponents much, much easier. So we can evaluate match-ups assuming that he'll get the inhale.) And I'm pretty sure he also struggles against Fox and Mario. His MUs in general are just not that great.

Villager is also not highly viable imo. When I see 'highly viable' I think 'viable for solo-main w/o secondary.' That's not villager. Fox, Rosalina, Palutena, Mega Man....there are a lot of characters who can mess him up. I'm pretty sure he loses to Mario and Sonic as well.

I agree with others that Mii Brawler is not viable at all in a non-custom environment, and Roy is not highly viable.

Considering the popularity of Meta Knight and Sheik, I don't think Rosalina is highly viable. Meta Knight is her worst match-up and it seems like everyone is picking him up. Pikachu, another bad match-up, is also gaining a lot of popularity.

Bowser is not more viable than Link. I'm not sure if he's even somewhat viable, although I'm pretty sure Link is.

Luigi is not highly viable as a solo-main. He's lucky that most of his worst match-ups are rather uncommon, but Sheik and Rosalina are still everywhere. And if he ever runs into a Mega Man or a Pac-Man then he's screwed. Lucas, Greninja, Little Mac, and ROB are just a few other characters who he struggles against.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lol we could do without things like that.

Idk what you could buff on Marth and not make him a dominating character.

I guess his UpB is pretty unremarkable. Especially compared to brawl.

Marth is fine as is.

 

[Noa.]

It seems strange to judge characters on how strong of a solo main they are when almost very top player mains at least two characters. Viability should probably be judged on how powerful and useful they are as one of two mains.

 

[Kaladin]

It seems strange to judge characters on how strong of a solo main they are when almost very top player mains at least two characters. Viability should probably be judged on how powerful and useful they are as one of two mains.

What's Falcon's Sheik matchup like? Outside of Sheik, Luigi and Falcon seem to cover eachother's bad matchups very nicely.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I can't see Olimar being highly viable considering his Sheik MU. Kirby hard-counters him as well, as Olimar basically can't do anything from the moment he gets inhaled. (This didn't used to be as much of an issue but Kirby now can inhale opponents much, much easier. So we can evaluate match-ups assuming that he'll get the inhale.) And I'm pretty sure he also struggles against Fox and Mario. His MUs in general are just not that great.

Villager is also not highly viable imo. When I see 'highly viable' I think 'viable for solo-main w/o secondary.' That's not villager. Fox, Rosalina, Palutena, Mega Man....there are a lot of characters who can mess him up. I'm pretty sure he loses to Mario and Sonic as well.

I agree with others that Mii Brawler is not viable at all in a non-custom environment, and Roy is not highly viable.

Considering the popularity of Meta Knight and Sheik, I don't think Rosalina is highly viable. Meta Knight is her worst match-up and it seems like everyone is picking him up. Pikachu, another bad match-up, is also gaining a lot of popularity.

Bowser is not more viable than Link. I'm not sure if he's even somewhat viable, although I'm pretty sure Link is.

Luigi is not highly viable as a solo-main. He's lucky that most of his worst match-ups are rather uncommon, but Sheik and Rosalina are still everywhere. And if he ever runs into a Mega Man or a Pac-Man then he's screwed. Lucas, Greninja, Little Mac, and ROB are just a few other characters who he struggles against.

Bowser is way better than Link. In fact, Link is a terrible character and i don't get the appeal of this character aside from fanboying over the TloZ series. Lack of interesting niche in the metagame, terrible representation, terrible mobility, Z dropping Bombs possibly laggy because of your tether, meh grab combos that don't exactly prevent the opponent from powershielding vs Link, mediocre recovery. Really, Bowser is a much better character, as his defensive tools allows him to wall out a bunch of characters, his landing is crap for sure, but at least he has enough pros for anyone to consider him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

At this point I can only think of a few things.

- Slight improvement on Fair hitbox, nothing drastic
- FSmash can hit people on BF plats and tip reliably from it, it's kind of janky as it is now

That's....all I can think of that'd be reasonable for me atm, I'm not a gigantic Marth player but if you asked me "make him great but not stupidly dominant" those two would roll off my tongue the fastest. I don't know if they'd do wonders but they're certainly improvements I'd welcome.

I think these suggestions are awful.

You don't need to buff two perfectly functional moves to turn into some stupid ass jank.

 

[Kaladin]

I think these suggestions are awful.

You don't need to buff two perfectly functional moves to turn into some stupid *** jank.

Whether you want to buff marth or nerf sheik, marth fair needs more range than sheik fair.

Period.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Whether you want to buff marth or nerf sheik, marth fair needs more range than sheik fair.

Period.

I think it's quite obvious whose fair is the real offender here.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

but at least he has enough pros for anyone to consider him.

So does Link.

 

[Ffamran]

Because Link and Toon Link don't have any tournament representation, and Math and Lucina do.

Link has Soronie, KirinBlaze, and I think someone named Scizor. Keitaro uses Link from time to time as well. Toon Link has Zan, Manzoku - a Japanese Toon Link whose name I can't remember correctly -, and Artemis did well at EVO if I remember correctly.

Sethlon gness and StaticManny are the only Roy's I can think of. I haven't seen gness's Roy in a long time though.

There's Darkwolf from Canada if you want some Roy and Shulk gameplay. Same region as Holy, Ally's brother and ROB player.

Edit: Correction; it's Darkwolf not DarkWolf. Here's his Shulk vs. Luffy's Ness: http://youtu.be/BRScvF-cSRw.

And his Shulk and Roy vs. Inhumanepie's Morton and Triple D: http://youtu.be/lRVKboVcTFY.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think these suggestions are awful.

You don't need to buff two perfectly functional moves to turn into some stupid *** jank.

Fair I can concede with as unrequired, but I can explain the logic on Tipper FSmash on BF plats.

It already does work vs. a lot of chars, I suppose I should elaborate on what exactly I mean. By hit people on plats I mean if Marth stands roughly directly below them and lines up the FSmash sword trail to hit them. It works vs. most of the cast, I've just compiled a list of those it doesn't. Keep in mind this is based on stance boxes and not like, tech boxes and the like. I can't really call this jank, it's been a thing since....forever with Marth if I recall? I reread my post and it might've sounded like I wanted FSmash to do more, but I assure you that it's not as ridiculous as it sounds, honest!

Misses: Mario, Donkey Kong, Pit, Link, RosaLuma, Zelda (lol), Pit, Marth (immune to self powers), Lucina (wildly inconsistent, similar to Marth but a bit diff. Weird.), Mega Man (glancing blow all the time when positioned optimally), Mewtwo.

Interesting in that it doesn't miss Roy but it whiffs on Marth and 80% of the time Lucina. Wonder if that means Roy has a bigger hitbox by like, a small vertical fraction? Mewtwo, DK, RosaLuma and Zelda are stuff I can understand as their hitboxes are elevated (Mewtwo's torso/body, DK's hands don't seem to be hittable, RosaLuma is floating and Zelda is Zelda) but I find it strange that it works odd vs. Mario, Pit, and Link....

I'm not suggesting outlandish things like it literally covering an entire BF plat (whoa), but I feel like the top hitbox is a little weird, or perhaps it's just individual character stance boxes being part of a Smash game, dunno. Probably should've worded my initial post on it a lot better, my apologies.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I'm sorry but am I missing something here cause it seem's to be that people are talking about a new patch.. did we just get another patch or what?

 

[Wintropy]

Honestly, I'd be content if Marth is high-tier just for the possibility that Lucina'd follow suit.

My initial reaction to her was that, if she was an inferior clone of a good character, she'd at least be decent.

 

[monzer]

When I see 'highly viable' I think 'viable for solo-main w/o secondary

By that logic the only highly Viable character is Shiek, since every character has several bad matchups. Since most top players main/use 2-3 characters, they should be judged by how good they are with secondaries/other mains to cover their weaknesses. I also can't see why Luigi and Rosalina, characters who are known for being in the top 5 characters in the game, are on par with most Mid-tier characters because they have a few poor matchups. Same goes with Villager and Olimar, they are both very good high tier characters

Bowser is not more viable than Link. I'm not sure if he's even somewhat viable, although I'm pretty sure Link is.

Why, Bowser is fairly fast, has lots of kill power, has out of shield options, has a suicide move and really just suffers from terrible frame data and his large hitbox.

Link has no approach options, all he can do is just spam projectiles. Link also has poor frame data similar to Bowser's, and lacks reliable kill options.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly, I'd be content if Marth is high-tier just for the possibility that Lucina'd follow suit.

My initial reaction to her was that, if she was an inferior clone of a good character, she'd at least be decent.

I think the big issue is that Marth is already a decent char and Lucina hasn't followed suit, and that this current patch (1.10) is worse for her, given the recent hitlag reduction findings (we're not talking about a new patch, just stuff that we recently discovered in this one). She's now even less safe on shield than Marth is, like, the gap has just widened a bit more (at least with Marth's tipper stuff now), and even if it's by a small margin, it's unfortunately happened :/. She doesn't even step forward with Utilt, which is...really weird!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm sorry but am I missing something here cause it seem's to be that people are talking about a new patch.. did we just get another patch or what?

Na I think they just discovered buffs from the last patch that people weren't previously aware of.

 

[Wintropy]

I think the big issue is that Marth is already a decent char and Lucina hasn't followed suit, and that this current patch (1.10) is worse for her, given the recent hitlag reduction findings (we're not talking about a new patch, just stuff that we recently discovered in this one). She's now even less safe on shield than Marth is, like, the gap has just widened a bit more (at least with Marth's tipper stuff now), and even if it's by a small margin, it's unfortunately happened :/. She doesn't even step forward with Utilt, which is...really weird!

Yeahuh. I just hope Sakurai doesn't cast off Lucina as Fire Emblem's red-headed stepchild, it'd be a shame when she's got potential to be...I dunno, something?

Anywho, pay my meddlesome rant no heed. I'm happy Marth's been treated favourably in these buffs. If only because I remember the disappointment when he was found to be nerfed considerably between the transition from Brawl to Smash 4.

 

[Gawain]

Anyone who thinks Ryu isn't viable is fooling themselves, honestly. His moves are deceptively hard to punish, up tilt light basically guarantees a lost stock at mid percents (!!) for fast fallers if the Ryu doesn't mess up, he has a recovery that makes him invincible while he rises, all his aerials have great range and are really fast. He's a great character. Like Roy, he's only been out for a couple months compared to the whole cast almost having a year now. Give them more time and I guarantee you'll see way more of them placing high.

What's Falcon's Sheik matchup like? Outside of Sheik, Luigi and Falcon seem to cover eachother's bad matchups very nicely.

I actually enjoy it. I think it's one of the most fun matchups in the game. Sue me.

 

[Gawain]

Delete this lol

 

[Greward]

Villager is also not highly viable imo. When I see 'highly viable' I think 'viable for solo-main w/o secondary.' That's not villager. Fox, Rosalina, Palutena, Mega Man....there are a lot of characters who can mess him up. I'm pretty sure he loses to Mario and Sonic as well.

I agree with others that Mii Brawler is not viable at all in a non-custom environment, and Roy is not highly viable.

Considering the popularity of Meta Knight and Sheik, I don't think Rosalina is highly viable. Meta Knight is her worst match-up and it seems like everyone is picking him up. Pikachu, another bad match-up, is also gaining a lot of popularity.

Bowser is not more viable than Link. I'm not sure if he's even somewhat viable, although I'm pretty sure Link is.

Luigi is not highly viable as a solo-main. He's lucky that most of his worst match-ups are rather uncommon, but Sheik and Rosalina are still everywhere. And if he ever runs into a Mega Man or a Pac-Man then he's screwed. Lucas, Greninja, Little Mac, and ROB are just a few other characters who he struggles against.

Ranai is winning most japanese tournaments as solo villager, guess he's probably viable. I agree on Olimar, his matchup against Sheik is close to unwinnable.

Rosa's "worst matchups" probably aren't even 4-6. 4-6s are winnable. If Rosa isn't viable, then only sheik is viable.

Luigi struggles hard against Sheik / Rosa and maybe ZSS. Mega and pacman wtf they are not a problem. Of all the ones you said I only think ROB is a bad one, and it's not very bad.

 

[bc1910]

With regard to Brawler I thought Miis were allowed to use whatever customs they want even in customs off?

 

[Zannabluke]

i'd say that luigi's matchups against heavy zoners such as pac or megaman are 50:50.

 

[Wintropy]

With regard to Brawler I thought Miis were allowed to use whatever customs they want even in customs off?

Most tourneys run default Mii only or ban Mii altogether.

Some tourneys do allow custom Mii even in customs-off, but as I recall, it's a relative minority.

 

[Mario766]

Anyone who thinks Ryu isn't viable is fooling themselves, honestly. His moves are deceptively hard to punish, up tilt light basically guarantees a lost stock at mid percents (!!) for fast fallers if the Ryu doesn't mess up, he has a recovery that makes him invincible while he rises, all his aerials have great range and are really fast. He's a great character. Like Roy, he's only been out for a couple months compared to the whole cast almost having a year now. Give them more time and I guarantee you'll see way more of them placing high.


I actually enjoy it. I think it's one of the most fun matchups in the game. Sue me.

Blazer only has Super armor when used on the ground. For 6 frames until Blazer's first hitbox comes out.

 

[Greward]

With regard to Brawler I thought Miis were allowed to use whatever customs they want even in customs off?

That's european rulings. In america Miis are usually forced to 1111 or banned.

Japan forces Miis to 1111 but they can change just one of their specials, so mostly brawlers there are 1121 (heli kick)

 

[Kaladin]

So, Tweek vs Fatality. Matchup inexperience, or something more?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So is Chakram still making Swordie top tier or have yall come to your senses?

 

[Locke 06]

[Ryu] has a recovery that makes him invincible while he rises

Only f1-6, according to multiple sources which matches my own experience. That's until the hitbox comes out. It's still vulnerable while rising.

 

[BSP]

i'd say that luigi's matchups against heavy zoners such as pac or megaman are 50:50.

IDK about Mega Man, but I think Pac-Man is 60:40 on Luigi. Not going to go into major depth, but Pac-Man can effectively shut down Luigi's neutral game between his trampoline and pellet. The trampoline forces air approaches and lets Pac-Man avoid grabs for the most part, while the pellet neutralizes the fireball game + heals pac-man as a result. Luigi does dumb things when he gets in as usual, but he clearly struggles to do so vs. Pac-Man.

 

[Blobface]

Raptor vs Angel was authentically painful for me to watch. Poor Yoshi ;-;.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So, Tweek vs Fatality. Matchup inexperience, or something more?

Tweek too good?

Seriously though if you've never played against him it's pretty jarring. It doesn't matter what Bowser jr you've played in the past tweek just plays on another level. Once he has the momentum it's a wrap.

 

[Superbat]

Donkey Kong tho.... What did I just watch? Yes, I know Donkey Kong struggles to get the grab when compared to pre patch diddy but ROFL still.