• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
I guess this means I'll have to do my combos with Mario a bit differently, but I'll adapt.

It's still not the worst though. Even if they VI away upwards, they're in the air and pretty vulnerable honestly, given the attacker's position and technical advantage. This IS pretty jarring for older players but I feel like newer players(which may be Smash 4's lifeblood) will pick up on this fairly quickly.
 
Last edited:

Neoleo21

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
191
Don't know how to feel about this mechanic admittedly, I think regular DI would have been fine to keep, but its important for video comparisons of VI and non VI, low percent combos. I think it gives the comboed player a little too many options for my liking but high percent combos are near impossible now any way and the best thing for that is air dodge frame traps, which work much better here than in brawl. How will it affect low percent combos depends on how big the influence is, as far as I'm concerned given the knock back of most low percent stuff, this mechanic has little influence if at all. Honestly, I think this mechanic is really pointless.
 

Hitaku

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
464
Location
Santa Rosa, CA
NNID
RyuujinHitaku
3DS FC
4184-2595-2024
As it stands, effecting lower percent combos seems to be the biggest concern. I would like to see someone to make a video showing a direct comparison of some bread and butter combos with VI influence and without.
 

MachoCheeze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
480
Location
WV
NNID
MachoCheeze
I don't understand why everyone is freaking out.

If you adapt your combo game to where they will VI (or whatever we're gonna call it) the combos are still there.

Sure it may be hard at first but we still haven't had the game for a week. It seems like everyone is giving up too early and being babies.
 

ToadsterOven

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
248
NNID
ToadsterOven
3DS FC
3711-6996-2029
Brawl 2.0 as predicted then... just not for any reason anyone expected.
A Brawl 2.0 this game is NOT! People on here are just overreacting to what seems to be a reworked version of DI. Once more people have a copy of the full game and have a chance to adapt to the new mechanics, the ignorant "BWAL TOOO POIN OH" comments shall cease. :)
 
Last edited:

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
I don't understand why everyone is freaking out.

If you adapt your combo game to where they will VI (or whatever we're gonna call it) the combos are still there.

Sure it may be hard at first but we still haven't had the game for a week. It seems like everyone is giving up too early and being babies.
Because you can get sent away further than you should quicker than you should. Smash is about progressive knockback and has a sensible feel to how far someone can get knocked away. Now you can change all that and effectively act like you are at a higher percent than you are or a lower percent than you are which directly and negatively affects the combo game.

Lower to low-mid percents is where the main combo game is at. If you can VI away and escape that combo sweetspot percent quicker its only better for you and worse for the combo game.
 

Monado Boy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
31
I think that people are overreacting to this, honestly. Yes, this probably make combo escapes and surviving at higher damage a bit simpler, but who knows, perhaps we may just have to step up our follow up game and edge guarding. Screaming that the game is ruined and is going to be Brawl 2.0 is quite premature as the Meta Game hasn't even had a chance to develop yet.
 
Last edited:

Dragoomba

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
1,053
Location
Southern Idaho
Warning Received
I'm going to find the character with the best dtilt and dair and become the best Smash 4 player.

My circlepad is never going to leave the down position. Screw recovering, that's pansy ****.
 

MachoCheeze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
480
Location
WV
NNID
MachoCheeze
Because you can get sent away further than you should quicker than you should. Smash is about progressive knockback and has a sensible feel to how far someone can get knocked away. Now you can change all that and effectively act like you are at a higher percent than you are or a lower percent than you are which directly and negatively affects the combo game.

Lower to low-mid percents is where the main combo game is at. If you can VI away and escape that combo sweetspot percent quicker its only better for you and worse for the combo game.
Ah, I getcha.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!
 

Cook

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
3,364
Location
Hannibal, MO
Warning Received
Wow, has Smashboards always been this scrubby? Guess I've been away too long.
 

Sashimi

Smash Ace
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
704
I am curious as to whether this new mechanic replaces SDI as well, or whether that is still in the game as its own mechanic.

If it's still in, which one does Sakurai mean when he writes "Hitstun Shuffling?"

My vote is that we call this new mechanic Vectoring, and, if we find out that Hitstun Shuffling does refer to this new mechanic, we use that term instead.

DI is not a good term to describe what is happening here and will only confuse people.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
Moderator
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,651
Location
Rochester, NY
NNID
Sansoldier
3DS FC
4957-2846-2924
I assume this makes light characters like Jigglypuff difficult to follow up past 20%?
 

Jords2Good

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 2, 2014
Messages
327
Location
Canada, Ontario
If you're getting into Smash 4 competitively, you're going to have to recognize this change. It's pretty damn huge, and very different from Melee/Brawl survival techs. :applejack:
Why would I need to know?
LOL actually I always hold the opposite direction of where I'm getting launched.( if that's what this is about)

How much of a difference than melee? Reducing the launch distance was not possible in melee?
 

Monado Boy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
31
Why would I need to know?
LOL actually I always hold the opposite direction of where I'm getting launched.( if that's what this is about)

How much of a difference than melee? Reducing the launch distance was not possible in melee?
In Melee/Brawl you could only alter your trajectory after being launched. In Smash 4 you can alter the distance.
 
Last edited:

chipz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
99
Why would I need to know?
LOL actually I always hold the opposite direction of where I'm getting launched.( if that's what this is about)

How much of a difference than melee? Reducing the launch distance was not possible in melee?
this right here is why you would need to know...
sometimes you want to hold the direction you're being launched to avoid follow up
similar to how you would want to DI out of chain grabs etc
 

Tony22

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
40
Location
Kansas
Warning Received
If the characters has multiple throws that it could potentially follow up with that go in different enough trajectories, one could create mindgames by changing up the throws, thus they would vector the wrong way. And if they vector closer to your position, you could even punish them harder. However, this would also mean that characters with multiple throws with different trajectories and able to follow up normally would be by far the top tier, and the rest of the characters would be pretty low tier. Combos are still possible, but not as fluid as is Melee. It's like if Brawl had 3 options and Melee had 5, Sm4sh would have 4 (that pun was not intended. 3,4,5 were the numbers that came to mind). It really does have combo potential, but it's pretty rigid in terms of how it works.

If this was already talked about, I didn't pay attention. I just went to the last page to comment lmao. Too lazy to read everything.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
7,878
Location
Woodstock, GA
NNID
LessThanPi

Basically, and this is a simple version mind you, with directional influence(DI) you could change your trajectory but not the length of distance traveled resulting in a curved line of possibilties. With vectoring (or VI) you CAN change the length of distance traveled. By picking a direction to hold you add a vector going that direction to the direction knock-back vector, this makes a circle of possibilities, (I'm assuming you can affect the intensity of the vector you add to the knock back in this image above).
 

Jords2Good

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 2, 2014
Messages
327
Location
Canada, Ontario
this right here is why you would need to know...
sometimes you want to hold the direction you're being launched to avoid follow up
similar to how you would want to DI out of chain grabs etc
Oh right, I get what your saying now.
So making combos in this game is going to be harder this time I'm guessing?
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO

Basically, and this is a simple version mind you, with directional influence(DI) you could change your trajectory but not the length of distance traveled resulting in a curved line of possibilties. With vectoring (or VI) you CAN change the length of distance traveled. By picking a direction to hold you add a vector going that direction to the direction knock-back vector, this makes a circle of possibilities, (I'm assuming you can affect the intensity of the vector you add to the knock back in this image above).
I don't know about the intensity, but we do know that going to a diagonal gives you the full range of both cardinal directions so your shape at the end should be a square and not a circle. I suspect it will just be a field of 9 points in a 3x3 square grid, but if intensity can be varied (not that you would ever want to), it would be a filled in square.
 

Tony22

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
40
Location
Kansas
Wait, so is Mega Man's "Rush-cancelling" actually him vectoring up, and his up special comes out fast?
 

ChillySundance

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
153
I knew combos in smash 4 were too good to be true. Sigh.

We really do need to test out just how variable this makes follow-ups across the board. I'm sure even someone with the demo could test it, right?
 

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
7,878
Location
Woodstock, GA
NNID
LessThanPi
I don't know about the intensity, but we do know that going to a diagonal gives you the full range of both cardinal directions so your shape at the end should be a square and not a circle. I suspect it will just be a field of 9 points in a 3x3 square grid, but if intensity can be varied (not that you would ever want to), it would be a filled in square.
Huh... after reading the post I thought he didn't test those direction extensively... but that is what his picture shows and I suppose that makes sense. If that's the case picking a direction to hold is going to be very easy for this game.
 

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
7,878
Location
Woodstock, GA
NNID
LessThanPi
I knew combos in smash 4 were too good to be true. Sigh.

We really do need to test out just how variable this makes follow-ups across the board. I'm sure even someone with the demo could test it, right?
Even if combos were some end all be all of the game this discovery doesn't invalidate them.
 

Espyo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
103
Location
Portugal
Not quite sure what to feel about this mechanic, but I have a question. In the previous Smash games, DI would only kick in if you were to hold the direction before you got sent flying (...right?). Is this still the case in Smash 4? I mean, given an up-knockback example, must you be holding down before being launched in order to survive, or can you start holding down halfway through the knockback (obviously, with a weaker effect)?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Cool find and a neat idea for a new mechanic. I'm personally not a fan though because it seems like holding the direction opposite from the knockback direction is the best option every time, which doesn't seem like actual depth, but artificial depth since it's the same best option every time.

Of course I could be thinking about this mechanic totally wrong since I don't have the game. I am a fan for change though!
 

Lil Puddin

just a lil extra
Joined
Dec 24, 2013
Messages
3,631
Location
idk half the time tbh
NNID
LilPuddin
3DS FC
0087-2867-1837
Switch FC
SW-5392-5621-5717
This is pretty good for killing those lame chain grabs. On another note, this makes characters who rely on one-hit wonders slightly better since comboers really need to work for it. Master Race Zeldoo, Ike, and Ganon pls report to the top tier. hurhurhur
 

Ray_Kalm

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,305
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
Ray_Kalm7
3DS FC
3626-0429-4546
"For explanation purposes, let's assume the percentage of this is 20%. You are hit by an Upsmash whose knockback value at your current percentage is 100. For simplicity's sake, the trajectory of this attack is 90 degrees, straight upward. You are holding down, which grants you a vector downwards of 20 (units per frame, I'm just going to use numbers from now on)."

So, basically, vectoring is you altering the amount of knockback you receive based on the percentage of damage you were at, and the power of the move used against you. The knockback of the power of a move is, of course, determined by your weight, the damage percentage you have, and how stale that move is beforehand.

This new replacement of directional influence will definitely benefit vertical heavy hitters more, and more so for moves that hit VERY hard vertically (say Ganon's Aerial Wizkick KOing Robin at 90% off the ground). Vectoring is less helpful when you are at lower percentages, and more helpful when you are at higher percentages. Characters find it tougher and tougher to kill as percentages go up.

I'm sure you've seen many replays of the game, and you've noticed that sometimes the players have a very hard time KOing each other despite the very high percentages. This is, as stated above, because of vectoring & coupled with the stale factor of a move.

If a decent vertical knockback move should KO your opponent at 130%, your opponent can vector his or her way to saving him or herself much more efficiently than he or she can from a vertical knockback move that should KO you at 90%.

KOs will be much more early out of just the sheer knockback power of some heavy hitting moves and we'll see vectoring of many KOing moves, that don't hit as hard, at very high percentages.

All of this is if vectored downwards, not upwards.
 
Last edited:

lanbobyonson

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
19
Location
Vancouver Island
First of all we need to make the large blast zone stages illegal, that's obvious but it will help the problem immensely.

I don't mind the way it affects combos, and I think combos and true combos will still be in; they still are in melee even with DI. It just makes it much more reactionary, if I understand correctly you can still ken combo you just can't fair and dair at the same time everytime, makes for much more interesting gameplay. Getting out of jabs with smart vectoring (or VIing) is much better than having jabs send you back everytime too.

I just hope there's still a balance between gimps and smash kills. This might turn into a gimp game but that's nothing new. Another thing to realize is that some of these moves kill at 100% or lower without VI so with this they'll still die at 125% if i understand correctly. That's fine, just don't go for smash kills until you're well above where they kill in training mode so they don't stale.

At first I was worried about this but after thinking for 30 minutes listening to D1's stream I realized we'll be fine. :)
 
Last edited:

Bladeviper

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
870
NNID
Bladeviper
This is pretty good for killing those lame chain grabs. On another note, this makes characters who rely on one-hit wonders slightly better since comboers really need to work for it. Master Race Zeldoo, Ike, and Ganon pls report to the top tier. hurhurhur
chain grabs were already gone you have 60 frames or so of grab immunity after getting grabbed
Cool find and a neat idea for a new mechanic. I'm personally not a fan though because it seems like holding the direction opposite from the knockback direction is the best option every time, which doesn't seem like actual depth, but artificial depth since it's the same best option every time.

Of course I could be thinking about this mechanic totally wrong since I don't have the game. I am a fan for change though!
but by always holding away it makes you easier to read and thus allows people to follow up on you better, just a thought
 

LOGIA666

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
158
Location
Impel Down
This is awesome man, great work! For the first time I can use my Vectorial Calculus knowledge on something :shades:
Vectoring is a perfect term for this I hope it becomes its "official" name.
But just in case, suppose that x character gets hit by a fsmash and gets sent right and upwards in a 60° angle, I'll need to hold the pad down+left at an angle of 240° to make a perfect and favorable Vector?
I dunno. Knockback Influence, or KI sounds better in my opinion. Makes the transition easier than saying Vectoring from DI.

EDIT: I change my mind. VI sounds too cool and close to DI to not use. Although I do feel that the words "Knockback Influence" fit better, and is understood by most as opposed to "Vector Influence"
 
Last edited:

Ryuutakeshi

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
1,553
Location
Fireguard
So... assuming that I do understand this mechanic, I just keep doing what I naturally have been doing since 64? Hold the control stick in the opposite direction from where I'm going? I mean, like holding A in Pokemon I always felt like it already did something (even if it didn't).
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
6,345
Location
New York, NY
3DS FC
5429-7210-5657
And then...we rewind to 2008...
Brawl did speed up, unless you were playing a few match-ups.

ICs were literally deleted and all of brawl's campy top tiers were dismantled

In their place there is now maybe duck hunt dog

Personally I like this discovery, I like defensive games and I think Smash 4 seemed to be too aggressive so far.
 
Last edited:

Ganreizu

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
670
Did everyone miss the part where he said it scales with knockback? It's likely that this has no effect on low knockback and/or low % combos at all. It's also likely that it makes mid-range combos deeper because there are a large number of positions your opponent can end up within the given space you've already guaranteed him to be at by getting the hit confirm. At high range all it does is make things easier to survive, which given the already normal match times and stock durations, and the fact that everyone is staling all of their kill moves right now, only adds a sense of skill while being more intuitive than DI was. Match times will continue to find a balance point as the meta evolves.

I don't view this mechanic negatively at all yet. We need more data.
 

Bladeviper

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
870
NNID
Bladeviper
Brawl did speed up, unless you were playing a few match-ups.

ICs were literally deleted and all of brawl's campy top tiers were dismantled

In their place there is now maybe duck hunt dog

Personally I like this discovery, I like defensive games and I think Smash 4 seemed to be too aggressive so far.
not to get too off topic but even the dhd has counters in projectile hate
 
Top Bottom