Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[Doval]

First off, lets look at how we know DI was in the past. You hold a direction, and it alters your base knockback.

It didn't alter the magnitude of the knockback, just the angle.

Now with Vectoring, or as it should be called, Hitstun Shuffling, that's not necessarily the case.

Hitstun Shuffling describes Smash DI, not DI/Vectoring.

In the earliest frames of hitlag is where you're input is determined. If you say, input nothing and then after you start moving a bit you input down, you're still considered moving with no directional influence since that's the input the game recorded.

It's read on the last frame of hit lag. Once you start moving, you're no longer in hit lag; that's hit stun.

Holding an input does not work though....to a degree. A held input would alter the first hit and the last hits trajectory, but not any of the weaker multihits (or at least, the effect isn't as noticeable)

The reason individual inputs seem more effective is because you're doing Smash DI/Hitstun Shuffling, not because DI/Vectoring is somehow less effective against the middle hits.

On an unrelated note, have we figured out if DI actually is any different from how it worked in previous games now that we know that crouch cancelling is back and that the tests against vertical attacks didn't account for it? I still haven't seen any conclusive statements.

 

[Neo Zero]

Except Vectoring and Shuffling is the same thing. Its the shuffle that determines your angle of knockback, you only control your DI while outside of hitstun. In it, you're confined to the direction the game recorded, as well its overall "strength". That's also why I need more testing done on multi hits, since each individual vector has a different value, so its difficult to ascertain if a function similar to DI affects multi hits, as well as properly recording every individual input and the value it has.

And ya, I worded some stuff a bit off, typed it up on my mobile lol.

 

[Doval]

Except Vectoring and Shuffling is the same thing. Its the shuffle that determines your angle of knockback, you only control your DI while outside of hitstun. In it, you're confined to the direction the game recorded, as well its overall "strength". That's also why I need more testing done on multi hits, since each individual vector has a different value, so its difficult to ascertain if a function similar to DI affects multi hits, as well as properly recording every individual input and the value it has.

And ya, I worded some stuff a bit off, typed it up on my mobile lol.

I don't think we're on the same page. Are you aware of what Smash DI is and how it works?

 

[Neo Zero]

Quite aware. I go over in my testing of how the end result angle between a shuffle and traditional DI/VI are the same. Perhaps wording it as shuffling was a mistake, but the simplest way to put it is the input the game records in the final frame of hitlag will determine the angle and force you take in hitstun, done the same way you would a shuffle, thus why I compared the two. Any directional input done in hitstun does not affect the KB angle the game calculates based on the input recorded in hit lag. Of course when you're free of hitstun, then your directional momentum can be controlled again

 

[Doval]

Quite aware. I go over in my testing of how the end result angle between a shuffle and traditional DI/VI are the same. Perhaps wording it as shuffling was a mistake, but the simplest way to put it is the input the game records in the final frame of hitlag will determine the angle and force you take in hitstun, done the same way you would a shuffle, thus why I compared the two.

We don't disagree that you can't affect your knockback once hit lag ends; that has never been the case in any of the games. We also don't disagree that that DI is read on the last frame of hit lag. What I'm saying is that the game's description of Hitstun Shuffling is precisely the definition of Smash DI. I wouldn't describe regular DI as "shifting slightly" in a direction - the effects of DI/Vectoring are pretty noticeable.

It's even clearer when you consider there's also a tip for Shieldstun Shuffling; you can't DI shielded hits but you can Smash DI them. They're not talking about simply moving your shield either; that's a separate tip ("Shifting Your Shield").

 

[M15t3R E]

We don't disagree that you can't affect your knockback once hit lag ends; that has never been the case in any of the games.

I'd just like to point out the prevalence of momentum cancelling aerials in SSBB that lessened knockback.

 

[Doval]

I'd just like to point out the prevalence of momentum cancelling aerials in SSBB that lessened knockback.

Fair point, I worded that poorly. I meant to say during hit stun. Even in Melee you could use forward mid air jumps to reduce the knockback.

 

[Bowsy]

Well this became quite the hype, didn't it

 

[Doval]

So, I decided to use the results screen to see how vectoring influences launch speed directly, instead of kill %s (which includes additional effects due to gravity and air resistance).

With Up Throw and Mega Upper, holding left or right doesn't affect the launch speed; this implies purely a change in angle (although it's clearly a much smaller change than in previous games). Additionally, even in the worst case scenario (hold up) crouch canceling results in lower launch speed than vectoring without crouching in the best case scenario (hold down).

Based on that you'd think that the component of the joystick direction perpendicular to the knockback changes the angle, while the component parallel to the knockback (up/down in this case) affects the knockback amount. However, I then tested Mega Man's Charge Shot and got strange results. Its angle of the attack is lower than 45 degrees, I'd estimate around 30-35. For some reason, holding up results in an increase in launch speed but no combination of down and/or left/right affected launch speed. I couldn't find a direction that decreased it either.

The angle of the launch did change, of course. I launched Mario from the center of Final Destination, then freefalled towards the stage. With no vectoring, Mario fails to grab the edge. Up Left gave the best results, allowing Mario to land back on the stage. Second best was Left, which allowed him to grab the edge, and Up which also allowed him to grab the edge but resulted in Mario being launched further both horizontally and vertically. Up Right resulted in a similar angle to neutral but flew further horizontally. Down Left seemed very similar to neutral and missed the edge. Down, Right, and Down Right all sent Mario more horizontally than the other angles. Further testing is needed with an attack that launches at 45 degrees or slightly higher.

Finally, I decided to see how the differences in launch speed affected kill %s for up throw.

Changing the angle left didn't make a significant change in survivability. From the down kill % we can see that small differences in vertical launch speed have huge effects on kill %, likely because lower launch gives gravity more time to act which in turn lowers your launch speed which in turn gives gravity more time to act...

For the record, the move in question was always used fresh by killing Mega Man prior to using it if he had done any attacks. The tests were done in Smash mode, not Training.

Tl;dr It's still unclear how vectoring works in general. Testing suggests the best direction is down for vertical attacks and up + towards the stage for horizontal attacks, with just towards the stage being second best for the latter case.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It's DI, because your are still influencing the direction your character is moving while he / she is being hit. Let's not make this complicated.

 

[Tagxy]

@ D Doval So pressing up in any way increases your knockback? So avoiding any direction upward may be best if youre launched and in fear of dying off the blastzone?

 

[Doval]

@ D Doval So pressing up in any way increases your knockback? So avoiding any direction upward may be best if youre launched and in fear of dying off the blastzone?

That's what the numbers say, but Up Left was still noticeably better at recovering. It's worth noting that Up Left is roughly perpendicular to the knockback and therefore affects the angle the most. Part of the knockback increase is being diverted upwards, but it's damned near impossible to get killed off the top with an attack of that angle except for extreme edge cases like the top of Tomodachi Life. Horizontal knockback isn't as wildly affected by small differences in launch speed so whatever small increase in horizontal speed occurred probably didn't outweigh the reduction that occurred from shifting the angle upwards.

It's worth looking into moves that hit at 45-60 degree angles. I still find it odd no direction decreased the launch speed. Maybe down only decreases launch speed if you launch angle is sufficiently vertical.

 

[Tagxy]

@ D Doval Right, I was thinking for characters that have awesome recoveries it might be worth it. Of course theres also the blastzone to consider, which might make it worth the extra knockback if the angle increases the distance to reach it enough. Guess thats just something thatll need to be experimented with. This is interesting though, essentially its a nerf to verticle kill moves and a decent buff to horizontal ones, especially with the removal of Brawl momentum cancelling. Granted vertical kill moves have had stronger kill potential traditionally, so this will be an interesting balance.

 

[Fangblade]

Soo after being hit by a strong attack, should I be vectoring instead of DI'ing to the corner of the stages now? I have been trying this out and it seems like I die easier when I vector, but it could be my imagination. Which one works better?

 

[Big O]

Personally I think it would just be less confusing for everyone if people agreed to just call it DI, and say that DI behaves differently in this game.

When and how it is triggered is still the same. It just behaves a little differently than previous smash games.

To answer your question @ Fangblade , if you get hit upwards you want to DI down. If you get hit to the side, you want to DI to the opposite side. You want to DI with the opposite direction of however you were launched in general.

 

[Nysyr]

From that testing it seems that holding Up is a good way to get out of combos, strangely giving the highest launch speed. Also a good way of dieing early

 

[xx99]

That's what the numbers say, but Up Left was still noticeably better at recovering. It's worth noting that Up Left is roughly perpendicular to the knockback and therefore affects the angle the most. Part of the knockback increase is being diverted upwards, but it's damned near impossible to get killed off the top with an attack of that angle except for extreme edge cases like the top of Tomodachi Life. Horizontal knockback isn't as wildly affected by small differences in launch speed so whatever small increase in horizontal speed occurred probably didn't outweigh the reduction that occurred from shifting the angle upwards.

It's worth looking into moves that hit at 45-60 degree angles. I still find it odd no direction decreased the launch speed. Maybe down only decreases launch speed if you launch angle is sufficiently vertical.

I'm so interested in cracking how VI/DI actually works in this game. It seems pretty important to competitive play to figure out how it works, or at least what the best way to VI is if we can't figure out the exact mechanics.

I really liked Doval's tests with launch speed, so I've been trying to gather more launch speed data. I just finished testing WFT's Sun Salutation (which launches at 40–60º angles) and the data just doesn't match up with Mega Man's Charge Shot.

Using handicaps, a WFT with 300% damage is chucking a fully charged Sun Salutation at another WFT with 300% damage. I thought increasing the launch speeds as much as possible would make it easier to measure the effect of VI. I took video of each VI possibility and used image editing software to approximately measure the angle of each launch. To minimize the effect of the dynamic camera, the WFT's stood in the same places for every kill (on opposite edges of FD). Because the in-game camera is slightly looking down, the angles aren't perfectly accurate, but they're still useful if you look at them relative to each other.

Here's my raw data. The launch speed column says "average" because I don't consistently perform diagonal VI at the exact same angle. I tested each VI direction 5 times and averaged them out.

Highlights:

• The angles work relative to each other exactly as you'd expect.
• Upward VI and downward VI both decrease the launch speed. I thought that was super weird, so I tested each of these 5 extra times and got the exact same results. It's worth noting that even with reduced knockback, VI'ing upward still kills a tiny bit earlier than inputting no VI because of the increased launch angle.
• While VI'ing away got the same launch speed as neutral VI, the only VI that increased knockback was up-away.
• From these numbers alone, it seems downward VI gets you a lot further from the top blast zone than down-toward VI.
• I did not gather data on crouching, but a handful of tests verify Doval's data. Crouching reduces knockback separately from VI, and with a much stronger effect.

I took the data and put it into a diagram. It's not the prettiest thing in the world, but I think it makes it easier to visualize 9 different VI options at once. I was really hoping to see something approximately square-shaped, but that's just not the case. Maybe launch speed and launch angle don't tell the story alone? I'd be surprised if gravity alone could make this better resemble a square.

It looks like the best VI against SS is up and towards the stage, unless you're worried about hitting the top blast zone, in which case down and towards the stage or straight down stand out.

All those 99s in Doval's Charge Shot tests are pretty weird, but my results are actually pretty similar. The attacker and defender in my tests had much higher damage, so it was easier to detect differences. If you divide my results by three, five of the VI angles are extremely close to each other.

Anybody have any ideas on how VI might work considering Doval's data and my results with Sun Salutation? Anybody have any ideas for more tests that might shed more light on the situation? If anybody wants to gather more data themselves, I'd be happy to measure the launch angles.

 

[Angry Guy of DE]

I wonder if this will work just like Melee with double stick DI while using the C stick as well.

Additional DI er Vector Direction...VD...okay not calling it that will be desired when as Ganondorf Sheik can just forward throw into F-air over and over and it seems to be in-escapable.

 

[Remzi]

It's DI, because your are still influencing the direction your character is moving while he / she is being hit. Let's not make this complicated.

If you're hit at 90 degrees and you vector at 270 degrees, you aren't influencing your direction at all.

*Edit: Not trying to be a smartass, but the name just doesn't work anymore.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

If you're hit at 90 degrees and you vector at 270 degrees, you aren't influencing your direction at all.

*Edit: Not trying to be a smartass, but the name just doesn't work anymore.

Says who?

And yeah, you are influencing the direction you are moving. Influencing your direction isn't specifically tailored to perpendicular movement. You are still influencing the distance travelled. While you aren't completely changing trajectory, you are still influencing it. Take double stick DI for instance, if I'm holding one stick to the left and right and another stick down, was I vectoring? What about smash DI, if I am sent downwards on a hit am I vectoring? These systems existed before; it's still DI. You can call it distance influence, but it would still be DI.

I feel like we should stop trying to overcomplicate things and just stick to what is already universal knowledge and just play the game.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Tbh that seems more complicating than just saying it alters vectors.

A vector has a magnitude and direction. DI changes direction, but not magnitude. We are changing both in this mechanic. Hence, VI, vector influence.

Really, this isnt complicated. To treat it as its own thing separate from old DI and especially SDI doesn't really mix things up. Edit: however, making the D in DI refer to either direction or distance depending on the game makes everything so much more complicated.

 

[Lemon Girl]

I heard someone say that Vectoring is out and regular DI is back with the 1.0.4 patch, can someone confirm? I haven't tested myself.

 

[Icylobster]

I heard someone say that Vectoring is out and regular DI is back with the 1.0.4 patch, can someone confirm? I haven't tested myself.

I read someone say that this morning as well, but I haven't seen anyone properly test it. I've got to say, if this is true it is a change that I didn't expect.

Edit: Vectoring is gone, people are currently working on testing whether it is really the old DI that is back or if there are differences.

 

[Lemon Girl]

Wierd, yesterday I remember surviving a foward smash by vectoring diagonal down toward the stage, but since I have massive amounts of input lag whenever I play maybe the game registered something else.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, okay, for the sake of closure, do we have something definitive / all-encompassing information "dump" such that we can close up shop but still have a reliable source for how it worked prior to WiiU.

There's been a lot of good posts with data, testing results, diagrams and pictures; scouring through all posts to find them (and knowing which ones are most relevant / accurate) would be a bit tricky.

Any takers / helpers?

 

[Tagxy]

@ Shaya
Problem is it was never fully understood in the first place. However, now people are mistaking old attributes for the new mechanic.

As far as I know based on this thread:
-Vectoring was the quality of adding or reducing knockback for a given hit.
-It was achieved by holding either up to add knockback or down to reduce knockback
-The closer to directly up/down of the joystick input the greater the affect vectoring had.
+Along with vertical trajectories, this also included horizontal trajectories that also increased/decreased in knockback with up/down.
+Left/Right had no affect on Vectoring
+The affect to horizontal vs vertical trajectories depended on the launch angle
+DI still existed alongside vectoring, though was less pronounced compared to previous games.

Seemingly vectoring is still the same, but removes the vertical component. While simple in concept this essentially removes half of (and likely the strongest and most significant form of) vectoring.

 

[Big O]

@ Shaya
Problem is it was never fully understood in the first place. However, now people are mistaking old attributes for the new mechanic.

As far as I know based on this thread:
-Vectoring was the quality of adding or reducing knockback for a given hit.
-It was achieved by holding either up to add knockback or down to reduce knockback
-The closer to directly up/down of the joystick input the greater the affect vectoring had.
+Along with vertical trajectories, this also included horizontal trajectories that also increased/decreased in knockback with up/down.
+Left/Right had no affect on Vectoring
+The affect to horizontal vs vertical trajectories depended on the launch angle
+DI still existed alongside vectoring, though was less pronounced compared to previous games.

Seemingly vectoring is still the same, but removes the vertical component. While simple in concept this essentially removes half of (and likely the strongest and most significant form of) vectoring.

Yeah it's funny how it takes a patch that breaks half of it before we even really started to understand what it was like in the first place. At this point it's probably best to just wait for the Wii U version and go from there.

I can also say that everything I've tested so far agrees with your bullet points.

 

[-LzR-]

Rip vectoring. We never really liked it anyways.

 

[Timmay08]

Rip vectoring. We never really liked it anyways.

2014-2014

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People have told me Vectoring is still in the WiiU version.

Is this true?

 

[infomon]

People have told me Vectoring is still in the WiiU version.

Is this true?

There's so much mis-information around vectgoring/DI in smash4 that this early on, you're better off testing yourself and comparing what you learn from that against everyone's claims.

I'll be testing things for myself tonight.

 

[Spartan117]

Vectoring is still in 1.0.2 WiiU Smash 4

 

[Pyr]

Vectoring is still in 1.0.2 WiiU Smash 4

Ya... Didn't need to bump a 2 month dead thread to say something that is 50% wrong.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Ya... Didn't need to bump a 2 month dead thread to say something that is 50% wrong.

Truth.

 

[Heleno]

i'm bumping this old topic once again. sorry.
Everytime i try to understand DI/Vectoring i find this topic. this is an old topic, and the first page information is outdated.
but as of 1.0.7 patch - i am craving to understand:
-- should i mash perpendicular to the launch direction or towards the stage?
-- should i mash both sticks or only left one is ok?
-- should i really mash? or just the direction is already fine?
--- errrm.... i know nothing about DI.... and since everything is so confusing, the more i tried to read, the least i understood!
=(
Edit: since nobody replied, I did some tests.
And I noticed that the horizontal launch and vertical launches greatly benefits from DOWN directional influence. The launch distance seems to diminish. During juggling and into combos, any direction will bring the character slightly out of Standard position. But this is somewhat like air-moving rather than DI itself.
So the lesson is: shield when attacked! But if you couldn't, then hold down on the stick- before the character is in the air.
What I couldn't understand (but then again: it has only theoretical importance) is whether we are flying less because of influencing the launch, or because the attacks have low kb on crouching characters. Throw data leads to believe it is indeed the first case.
Cheers!!!