Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[Jaxas]

Someone sit down right now, and without messing up with move decay (make sure the move is fresh by suiciding each time)

Up Smash on Bowser with ... what percent does it kill at [random character: FOX]
Then with Vectoring Down. ^

There's [basically] the maximum disparity of *****ing allowed when it comes to kill moves and VI. I have a really large inkling it's going to be noticeably less potent than the mixture of tumble cancelling into fast falls that allowed people to live literally forever in Brawl.

I would do this, but I only have the demo. Would it be worth doing preliminary testing with Mario's Usmash on Link, or should I just let someone who has a copy test it?

 

[Shaya]

I would do this, but I only have the demo. Would it be worth doing preliminary testing with Mario's Usmash on Link, or should I just let someone who has a copy test it?

It would give people an idea, sure (and it wouldn't go to waste, in other words, I'm sure the Mario's would like to know for their link match up thread ).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I do wonder if that weird "Wario momentum" thing that's going around is related to this in some way, possible because of his ridiculous horizontal aerial acceleration.

 

[vydran212]

Call it what you want--Vectoring, DI, DI 2: Electric Boogaloo...

No matter what you call it, it's a mechanic that makes far more sense than previous iterations of smash, from a logical physics standpoint. If you are getting pulled inward to a combo, the natural resistance to that would be to pull AWAY from said combo. Likewise, if you are thrown very far towards the direction of a blast zone, the natural resistance to that would be to pull TOWARDS the direction of said throw, or AWAY from that blast zone.

It feels like this mechanic was implemented to be better understood by the majority of gamers. "Getting combo-ed this way? Well go the opposite way! Getting flung in this direction? Well go the opposite direction!"

Does it suck for more advanced players? Well, yes, but I'm sure we'll find ways to compensate around it. Matches I've watched between ZeRo and M2K prove that either this mechanic isn't as crushing as people think, or that there are creative, aggressive plays to get around it.

 

[DibsOnThat]

When I first started playing Smash as a kid I naturally held the control stick the opposite direction of where I was flying when I got hit, it wasn't until recently when I learned DI that I stopped doing that. This basically makes what we've all been doing with DI more natural for casual player. It's a shame about how it's going to destroying a lot of comboing, but this levels the playing field between the elite and the beginners quite a bit.

 

[SaintChairface]

In addition to my earlier post about determining the proportionality, it would also be of interest (although decidedly more complicated) to determine if variables like, character weight, fall speed, walk speed, or run speed have independent influence over the size/proportion of the influence vector.

Determining this would likely require plotting a difference curve of no VI vs VI knockback for every character individually and then comparing them sorted across each of those variables.

Volunteers? I'd like to see this work done before I see the words "Good" or "Bad" in this thread again

 

[Corpsecreate]

How to find the potency of "VI":

1. Find the stage with the highest ceiling
2. Use some method of measuring the ceiling height (count pixels?)
3. Get hit by a move that hits directly vertical that only JUST kills your opponent off the top at some %
4. Opponent holds Directly to the right or left
5. Count the number of frames from the moment of knockback up until death
6. Measure the Horizontal Distance travelled at the moment of death

The sum of all VI applied on each frame should equal the Horizontal Distance travelled. Solve to determine the strength of the players VI (which is likely to be some percentage of the magnitude of the initial knockback). This will work assuming the effect of VI is constant throughout hitstun (which isn't known right now, but also easily testable).

Or u could VI downwards, and calc something similar...Thats actually a tonne easier lols.

 

[Rybaia]

VI'ing is a lot more simple than DI'ing, though. If you are trying to live at higher percents in Melee with DI, you have to find the optimal angle that will maximize the amount of space you travel through. The knock back value is the same, no matter if you DI or not.

With VI'ing, if you want to survive at higher percents just point the control stick in the opposite direction your flying to reduce the AMOUNT of knock back you receive. It doesn't influence your trajectory like Melee DI. If you get sent up and you point it northeast, you're not going to fly northeast, you're going to fly up still. No idea why people insist on calling this DI when the goals of each tech and what they're actually doing is completely different.

In theory the only difference with DI and VI is that with DI maybe you need to put a little bit of study to find the optimal angle.
Once you find it you simply go in training mode and execute it until you can execute it. Then it's all about reflex and muscle memory (ofc when you DI tho excape a combo you need a little bit more thought in it).
I think here with VI we'll have the same situation. People will study the moves and their trajectory and come up with the optimal VI.
Nothing different. Plus we still are playing this game with just one stick we don't know how the c-stick will influence this.
Give the game time expecially since this is the 3ds version.

 

[Funen1]

Hmm, this looks quite interesting. I'm not exactly new to Smash, but I too find vectoring more intuitive than DI. It's something people will need to get used to, but I can easily see how people would adjust to it. Like in TheReflexWonder's recent example with jab combos - if the opponent is starting to move away in the middle of it, end the combo early to get that last strong hit in. I'm sure people will experiment with throw mix-ups to set opponents up for juggles too, and possibly alter the timings of moves to keep them in range. Unfortunately I am unable to test anything related to this, but I'm looking forward to more discoveries and fine-tuning down the road. I think it's far from the "metagame-destroying" mechanic some folks are making it out to be.

 

[Jaxas]

It would give people an idea, sure (and it wouldn't go to waste, in other words, I'm sure the Mario's would like to know for their link match up thread ).

I'll give a shot, sure. Also, shameless promotion but I've calculated (almost, I'm working on the remaining ones now) the damage outputs of all of Mario's moves (not including Stale Move Negation or the Freshness Bonus).

I'll post my findings soon, though.
Anything else specific I should test with this, or just find kill percentages with and without?

--- EDIT ---
...this may take a bit, I have to find the second 3DS before I can test anything.
Also, my roommate may have it, and he's gone for the night. If so then sorry, I can't help until he gets back tomorrow

 

[SaintChairface]

How to find the potency of "VI":

1. Find the stage with the highest ceiling
2. Use some method of measuring the ceiling height (count pixels?)
3. Get hit by a move that hits directly vertical that only JUST kills your opponent off the top at some %
4. Opponent holds Directly to the right or left
5. Count the number of frames from the moment of knockback up until death
6. Measure the Horizontal Distance travelled at the moment of death

The sum of all VI applied on each frame should equal the Horizontal Distance travelled. Solve to determine the strength of the players VI (which is likely to be some percentage of the magnitude of the initial knockback). This will work assuming the effect of VI is constant throughout hitstun (which isn't known right now, but also easily testable).

This basically describes the experiment in the first post, only the specific measurements need be applied.
What we need now though is curves not individual data points

<uncle>Potency not important</uncle>
Potency is variable given the specific circumstances within a match anyway. Only the proportionality and variables need to be determined

 

[proxibomb]

How long did it take you to gather all this information? It's useful!

 

[TTTTTsd]

Quick question for Strong Bad : Does lightly holding a direction(like tilting) produce a different vector value?

 

[ancara22]

As I said before, VI/KI/whatever it's called now likely is going to be a VERY interesting thing, and the more obvious it's seen based on percentage when launched, the more likely you can pull shenanigans. And not only that, but I got a feeling those who couldn't get combos or neat stuff before, now might have a chance with this.....somehow. It's all new territory to me at least, and I'm hype for whenever this goes.

Still, let's just hope that the competitive scene doesn't die early because of people whining about change without even giving it a shot because of Brawl paranoia or whatever. Still......I have a HUGE gut feeling all this fearmongering and picknicing happening and being brought about is either by very salty bad apples in the PM/Melee community, people who just wanna get people riled up for laughs from certain sites/boards (you know who you are, you silly rusemasters), and/or those who I KNOW have a bad habbit of only ever reading the OP and then panic without reading any other posts.

So yeah, for those in either category: Let's at least cool down and not act like stream boars over this right away. And for the rusemasters reading this trying to cause shenanigans: At least save the b8 for when we HAVE a tourny scene here to work with when the full game comes out later.

 

[SaintChairface]

Quick question for Strong Bad : Does lightly holding a direction(like tilting) produce a different vector value?

Now we're getting scientific. The potential influence or running/walking speed could be deconfirmed or made plausible by this simple test.

 

[LinkNIvy]

I'm willing to bet money that DI was changed to vector addition because this is INSTINCTIVELY what most players do when they're hit if they don't know how past DI works. If they're smacked out, they want to get back to the stage, so what direction do they hold? The direction towards the stage. If they're being truly combed, they hold the control stick in the direction they want to go to avoid the next hit.

This is definitely designed to be more intuitive than figuring out what angle the player needs to hold to use old DI. This is also how I thought old DI worked before I realized DI was a thing instead of just hoping that I could hold the control stick hard enough to not get KOed like holding down the B button when catching a Pokemon as a good luck ritual. I'm totally for this.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think of Vectoring like throw teching in Anime Fighters. Usually the person who techs can get out of a combo that the person throwing wanted, but it's either a reset to neutral or potentially even worse for the attacker. In Smash 4 it's likely the latter, as they can't safely airdodge into the ground.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

You aren't influencing the direction of something, you're influencing the knock back value of something.

That is, of course, unless you actually know the definition of the word direction, which simply defines any variation of a path or course of movement, it doesn't just simply apply to a change in angle on a flat 2D plane of existence.

"VI" is still a form of directional influence, therefore there is nothing inaccurate about simply calling this mechanic DI. It's not like the original DI remains in the game for their to be any confusion, it was simply replaced by this "new" type of DI.

 

[NotLiquid]

I don't imagine this will mean as much for killing moves due to the idea of knockback influence being very instinctive to a lot of players (i.e holding against the direction you're heading against), so a lot of data that's out there right now is probably built around people accommodating for that. I have to wonder whether or not the horizontal potency of such is one of those things that is ultimately going to fuel SSB4's seeming insistence on increased off-stage play/defenses.

Bit of a funny realization as well once you realize that this mechanic is a good thing for characters with big hitboxes, as it's an indirect buff towards Bowser. Yet another bullet point to add to his neverending improvements!

 

[LinkNIvy]

So, "Vectoring" is a pretty redundant name since DI in the old games most likely use vectors to determine the velocity, anyway. Any movement in these games from walking to an item falling is probably using a vector to determine the direction and speed something is moving. DI in past games just rotates the vector without changing the magnitude. This DI is just adding the vectors (or parts of them) together to bring them closer together.

Also, I haven't taken Linear Algebra and my vector knowledge mostly comes from some modding of HL2, but wouldn't averaging a vector with a length of 100 to another with a length of 20 going the other way make the length 60? I haven't really averaged vectors out, just rotated them with a limited understanding.

That is exactly what it does. You're able to arbitrarily go further from an attack without suffering any more hitstun, making it require more frames for an opponent to reach you. Already tight combos are now just not possible at all.

So, Smash DI but designed better.

 

[ZombieBran]

If there was just a tad more hitstun, I'd be more excited about the prospects of Vectoring/KI/DI/whatever.
Though I am wary, it is certainly more intuitive than before, and it is logical to include this new type of DI from the developer's point of view.

 

[Shadow the Past]

That is, of course, unless you actually know the definition of the word direction, which simply defines any variation of a path or course of movement, it doesn't just simply apply to a change in angle on a flat 2D plane of existence.

"VI" is still a form of directional influence, therefore there is nothing inaccurate about simply calling this mechanic DI. It's not like the original DI remains in the game for their to be any confusion, it was simply replaced by this "new" type of DI.

The potential for confusion lies in the fact that we are a community that still plays previous games in the series when new games come out. Naming a mechanic the same as something in the older games, yet that works completely different, only creates a collision course of confusion.

What if when Brawl came out we called auto-cancels L-cancels? I mean, it's not like L-cancelling remains in the game for there to be any confusion, it was simply replaced by this "new" type of L-caneclling.

 

[trash?]

is there any genuine drawback to VI compared to normal-ol' DI? it just looks like it's a direct upgrade, you get more positioning handled to you without any SDI needed (and even mixed with SDI, so you get something that looks like the SDI of old)

...although, thinking about it, because SDI is nerfed, maybe this just becomes "normal" SDI that can be more maneuvered near the end of the combo. I'm mostly pushing for doubles so I'm prolly comboing no matter what, but this is still pretty interesting

 

[Big-Cat]

I swear this is made completely overwhelming. Kudos to those that are explaining HOW it works from both a programming and a scientific standpoint, but it's like telling me how snow is made, not how to use it.

As I implied in my last posts, this is a nine-way escape that's what a lot of people thought was DI in the first place.

Dare I say that calling it Vectoring/VI just makes it sound extra complicated than it is in practice.

 

[Pazzo.]

Interesting finds. Everyday, I'm more and more convinced that Sakurai is trying to encourage off-stage chasing. As such, I expect to see more of it in the future.

With buffed meteor spikes, vectoring, the new 'run off the stage' (do we have a term for that?), and the overhauled ledge, SSB4 could end up pseudo-chase aggressive/defence.

What do you all think?

 

[Monado Boy]

Interesting finds. Everyday, I'm more and more convinced that Sakurai is trying to encourage off-stage chasing. As such, I expect to see more of it in the future.

With buffed meteor spikes, vectoring, the new 'run off the stage' (do we have a term for that?), and the overhauled ledge, SSB4 could end up pseudo-chase aggressive/defence.

What do you all think?

I think that has a high chance of being true. I wouldn't mind this as long as it leaned more towards the aggressive side. It really does look like Sakurai wants to make actively edge guarding more important than ever before.

 

[Shloub]

After doing some investigative work, I've successfully determined what's going on and proven it.

Can You provide a formal proof? Otherwise, maybe we could consider using another word?

 

[Pazzo.]

I think that has a high chance of being true. I wouldn't mind this as long as it leaned more towards the aggressive side. It really does look like Sakurai wants to make actively edge guarding more important than ever before.

"Fancy meeting you here..."

As long as we play our cards right, and grow some guts, we could see a very different, yet exciting Smash.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

I like that there is a new mechanic here. What this basically does is give us an additional option to consider in battle. I for one do not want to be on the receiving end of a devastating combo, so considering options to defend

Interesting finds. Everyday, I'm more and more convinced that Sakurai is trying to encourage off-stage chasing. As such, I expect to see more of it in the future.

With buffed meteor spikes, vectoring, the new 'run off the stage' (do we have a term for that?), and the overhauled ledge, SSB4 could end up pseudo-chase aggressive/defence.

What do you all think?

I made a similar observation back when the Japanese demo first released.

I feel smart now.

 

[Smasher89]

What about if you change your direction, like the "japanese/quartcirckleDI) covering more angles?

 

[Pazzo.]

I like that there is a new mechanic here. What this basically does is give us an additional option to consider in battle. I for one do not want to be on the receiving end of a devastating combo, so considering options to defend


I made a similar observation back when the Japanese demo first released.

I feel smart now.

I'm glad you mentioned that.

I have high hopes for this game, and to see other people making similar observations independently helps to rectify my theories. :3

 

[Deleted member 245254]

The potential for confusion lies in the fact that we are a community that still plays previous games in the series when new games come out. Naming a mechanic the same as something in the older games, yet that works completely different, only creates a collision course of confusion.

What if when Brawl came out we called auto-cancels L-cancels? I mean, it's not like L-cancelling remains in the game for there to be any confusion, it was simply replaced by this "new" type of L-caneclling.

While what you say is true, I don't think it's nearly as much of an obstacle as you just implied.

Some mechanics work different in other games of a series, it doesn't mean said mechanic gets a new term. Anyone who truly is interested in playing multiple iterations of Smash is likely very keenly aware at that point that some mechanics probably differ, and it's up to them to do that research to inform themselves of the details.

 

[Ogopogo]

Like we need people to live longer in this game

 

[Jaedrik]

I like the name "Vectoring". Thanks for the info, SB!

Edit: This is also most unfortunate a mechanic. Now we return to a perpetually neutral style game. This is horrible.

 

[Espy Rose]

Zipzo, stop.
VI and DI are different enough to justify a different defining term. That's all that really matters.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Zipzo, stop.
VI and DI are different enough to justify a different defining term. That's all that really matters.

VI literally is DI, so that is incorrect.

Smash 4 DI may not be Melee DI, and it may not be Brawl DI...but it is DI.

 

[Gardex]

VI literally is DI, so that is incorrect.

Smash 4 DI may not be Melee DI, and it may not be Brawl DI...but it is DI.

You're not influencing your direction by holding down when hit straight up

 

[New_Dumal]

The main problem with this is using vectoring to escape from combos, what I liked were'nt being possible until now.
Mario.... I trust you, don't lose your combos to some vectoring thing.
It's DI working at all ? There are situations where you would prefer DI over VI ? This could be awesome.

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

When this was discovered I never thought that the most controversial thing about it would be the name lol

 

[BestTeaMaker]

When this was discovered I never thought that the most controversial thing about it would be the name lol

If South Park has taught me anything, then we're going to splinter into warring factions, one in the VI Republic and the other in the DI Empire.