Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[kupo15]

Can someone explain this in layman's terms?

Its so simple

DI in melee
Move deals 10 units of knockback, you DI the move and the kb stays at 10 units of kb only the trajectory is different

VI in S4
Move deals 10 units of knockback, you VI the move and the move now deals 8 or 14 units of kb depending on your input

 

[GP&B]

VI also brings up possibly a MASSIVE question on the table:

Which characters does this benefit most?

Anyone with setups that don't require physically reaching the opponent is my guess. I feel like with the way Link's projectiles work now, VI may or may not have as much of an effect on him. I sincerely feel like this is just going to trash combo-based characters or any character that depends on KO setups to finish off stocks. People mention that it's totally fine to kill combos (without really even considering why DI made combos in Smash interesting in the first place), but there are characters who are clearly designed around a strong combo game and I can't see this doing anything other than damaging their functionality.

 

[ancara22]

I think I got it. So for example:

Melee DI: Get upthrown. Moving analog stick to left/right will change which way you go. Holding up does nothing. Holding down does nothing. Distance remains the same. Depending on how far left or right depends on if you go completely left or right or into the corner of the analog stick.

Sm4sh VI: Get upthrown. Moving analog stick in any direction affects your movement into that direction chosen. You can go further up left, further up, further up right, closer down left, closer down, closer down right.

When ya put it like that.....it actually makes things a LOT more interesting and exciting. It gives you more options to work with, and also some predictions as well. Like for example, either going for your usual attack, or predicting VI being used in a specific direction, and acting based on that. I can smell a LOT of mindgames to come from that.

All in all, the more we look at it properly, the more things look awesome to me. And thus the more we can hopefully use this for the better for excitement.

 

[rawrimamonster]

I'm not entirely sure how to feel about this, does this mean people are gonna live to stupidly absurd %'s?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Potentially, yes, but if they're offstage then gimps and such are still gonna be relatively easy to apply, it's hard to say how much it will actually affect the edgegame in that regard.

 

[T-block]

I think I got it. So for example:

Melee DI: Get upthrown. Moving analog stick to left/right will change which way you go. Holding up does nothing. Holding down does nothing. Distance remains the same. Depending on how far left or right depends on if you go completely left or right or into the corner of the analog stick.

Sm4sh VI: Get upthrown. Moving analog stick in any direction affects your movement into that direction chosen. You can go further up left, further up, further up right, closer down left, closer down, closer down right.

I think you have the right idea, yeah.

I updated the graphic... I agree it's a good comparison to make.

Spoiler

 

[Tagxy]

Vectors are:
1) Direction
2) Force

In previous smash games we only had to worry about direction. Now theres two factors to consider. The only time this leads to brain-dead combo escapes is when the trajectory of your knockback and the direction you wish to travel are one and the same. Otherwise the question has a bit more depth to it. Do I influence by knockback while following an obvious trajectory? Or do I mix-up my trajectory but accept less than ideal knockback? The mechanic itself adds a new layer of depth to gameplay along with being more intuitive.

The issue people have with combos for the time being is outside the context of other smash games, since for reasons I described its far from being as simple as "combos are easier to escape now", so drawing comparisons between other games isnt helpful. Perhaps the closest thing to a comparison that can be made is the sense that theres a smaller influence on what was previously perceived as DI which would actually imply a greater ability to combo on its own.

The comparisons that are really being drawn here are within the context of smash 4 itself, which is the only one that really matters. In the limited time we've had with the game, people have seen certain punishes and have formed an expectation for smash 4, and now that people have a greater understanding of smash 4's mechanics are curious how this will affect the game based on the perception we've already created for ourselves. To this I'd say, it was always too early to tell anyways. No one really knows what "should" or "shouldn't" work, and in the same way people have not optimized their ability to escape punishment, nor have they optimized their ability to maximize it either. As previously stated by myself, were attempting to draw serious implications too early.

 

[Lumenebrae]

Ignore the mathematical inaccuracy, it's just a visual comparison

Notice that the line lengths vary on Vectoring, while (doesn't look like it here because mspaint, it's supposed to be a perfect or so arc of a full circle) line lengths don't really do that for DI.

 

[Senario]

Uh oh, Not liking the implications for this for a long term metagame(where ideally everybody has very good Vectoring). But it is what it is. =/

Proper DI was figured out as melee continued and it made things like Ken combo much harder to pull off because people knew how to escape it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah I'd like to see where this goes before drawing any immediate conclusions. It just sounds REALLY REALLY weird.

 

[GP&B]

Melee also had a ton of room for optimizing movement for mixups even where optimal DI is considered. I think the ease of use for pivot standing actions will at least help Smash 4 a lot with that though, but only time will tell.

 

[wing zrow]

Its so simple

DI in melee
Move deals 10 units of knockback, you DI the move and the kb stays at 10 units of kb only the trajectory is different

VI in S4
Move deals 10 units of knockback, you VI the move and the move now deals 8 or 14 units of kb depending on your input

I guess I'm a visual learner. Someone should do a side by side comparison of all 4 Smash bros. Games for those of us who want to see what this looks like in action.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can someone explain this in layman's terms?

You may want to get out some graph paper for this one, it honestly helps.

A vector is a mathematical construct that has a magnitude and a direction. Vectors are commonly spoken of as if they originate from a local origin (0, 0) and end at a point (X, Y). So a vector (3, 5) can be thought of as a line from (0, 0) to (3, 5). If you want to isolate just the X component or just the Y component, you can draw a triangle around it by noting an additional point at either (X, 0) or (0, Y); in this case, (3, 0) or (0, 5). The X component of our sample vector is (3, 0) and our Y component is (0, 5).

Think of knockback in Smash 4 as a vector. It has a direction and it has a magnitude. Through calculations, the game determines that the vector is (Kx, Ky). If you don't touch the control stick at all, and disregard gravity, your character will go flying in a straight line to point (Kx, Ky) assuming you started at (0, 0).

But you are holding the control stick for whatever reason. The game notes this and creates a second vector, (Vx, Vy). For the purposes of simplifying this example, Vx and Vy can be assumed to be either 1 or 0. Holding the control stick to the left results in (-1, 0). Holding it to the upper right results in (1, 1). Straight down is (0, -1). And so forth.

When calculating the knockback vector, the game adds this additional vector before finally sending your character flying along the path of the new calculated vector. So the knockback vector ends up being (Kx + Vx, Ky + Vy). If you're following along on some graph paper, it's as simple as drawing the first vector, then drawing the second vector starting at the end of the first vector. (3, 5) + (-1, 0) = (2, 5).

The consequence of this is that you can directly reduce your knockback by holding the control stick in the opposite direction you are sent flying, thus subtracting from your original knockback. In situations where you can be sent in an ambiguous direction, such as an up throw or a side throw, you can hold the control stick at an angle to cover both options at once. You can also hold the control stick in the same direction as the knockback in order to fly further, which can help escape combos.

And this has been your impromptu linear algebra lecture.

 

[Shawksta]

Pretty darned sure a lvl9 wouldn't fall for that, much less a pro.

You do realize Scarfland specifically said that the Mario Combo works WITH a Lvl 9/potentially a pro players because they are TRYING to get out, it doesnt work as good with CPU that dont do anything.

People are overexaggerating how this affects Smash 4 combos when the majority rely on the opponent trying to get out that makes the Combos in the first place.

Like this for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksMduEXItBU
Megaman wouldve been safe if he didnt try to escape with the Rush Cancelling.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I guess I'm a visual learner. Someone should do a side by side comparison of all 4 Smash bros. Games for those of us who want to see what this looks like in action.

It would probably help. I have a strong math and linear algebra background from studying computer science so all of this makes a good deal of sense to me, but I completely understand that it's not intuitive to everyone.

 

[kupo15]

So for those who are still confused, in the most simplest terms:

Melee DI
Distributing a moves kb to a new direction- no changes in kb strength

S4 VI
Adding or subtracting a moves kb components - changing the kb strength of moves

I'm not entirely sure how to feel about this, does this mean people are gonna live to stupidly absurd %'s?

probably, I've already seen lots of people live till close to 200% consistently. You are essentially making a move act like you are at 100% when you are really at 150%

 

[SamuraiPanda]

You're being silly. I've explained why this legitimately changes the combo game significantly more than the previous DI mechanics, and mitigates them much more than DI used to. Many players hoping to play this game competitively were excited by the combos we were seeing in early gameplay, but after just 1 day trying to Vector, these became impossible at significantly lower percents. Is that a bad thing? That's subjective, but to the general populace it makes the game less fun to both play and to watch, which doesn't bode well for its competitive future. Arguing that it's not huge with no information at all is worse than arguing that it is huge with limited information.

Welp, depending on how much this can actually influence combos, this could have killed most hype and hope I had for this game competitively.

*sigh*

 

[rawrimamonster]

Saw a thread on /v/ with a simpler explanation than the walls of text brainiacs who dont know what laymans terms are here. Yknow that thing you USED to do when you thought you were DI'ing with the control stick in the opposite direction of the hit? That works now.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Idk if my jank understanding is correct but

(does this need a spoiler tag?)
Notice that the line lengths vary on Vectoring, while (doesn't look like it here because mspaint) line lengths don't really do that for DI.


Am I helping or am I just dumb?

This looks accurate to me as I understand it.

In other news, christ this topic moves fast.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This is, as it stands, incredibly weird. I guess if they ever feel like changing it in the future it'd be relatively easy(not like I'm asking for it), but this is just weird. I feel like if they made Vectoring away actually increase the hitstun and scale, it'd be more interesting. As it stands, pretty neutral so far.

 

[Crawfish]

omg, please, someone give me good news in regards to combos, im picnicking over here and can't take it anymore!
i was so hype for this game, but vectoring almost brings it down to brawl status for me. can someone change my mind? make me excited again?

Please?

 

[sheersahw]

There's something I'm curious about. Forgive me if this has been addressed, but is it possible that different characters can exert different amounts of VI? If that were the case, this might make things rather interesting. If Little Mac is able to exert more VI than say, Bowser, then that would mean Little Mac would be harder to combo and punish effectively, while Bowser would be very easy to punish. In that case, certain combos would work on certain characters, but not every character.

 

[Shawksta]

Saw a thread on /v/ with a simpler explanation than the walls of text brainiacs who dont know what laymans terms are here. Yknow that thing you USED to do when you thought you were DI'ing with the control stick in the opposite direction of the hit? That works now.

Heh, that's a funny yet simple explanation of it on technically terms

 

[TTTTTsd]

There's something I'm curious about. Forgive me if this has been addressed, but is it possible that different characters can exert different amounts of VI? If that were the case, this might make things rather interesting. If Little Mac is able to exert more VI than say, Bowser, then that would mean Little Mac would be harder to combo and punish effectively, while Bowser would be very easy to punish. In that case, certain combos would work on certain characters, but not every character.

I think that happens as a result of hitboxes already to begin with. Bowser is a bigger target, etc. But varying VI would be...really interesting, but probably a bad idea.

 

[ancara22]

omg, please, someone give me good news in regards to combos, im picnicking over here and can't take it anymore!
i was so hype for this game, but vectoring almost brings it down to brawl status for me. can someone change my mind? make me excited again?

Simply put, if I've been seeing this right from streamus, it shouldn't affect combos that badly. And not only that, it might help those who are heavier characters, and those with better recovery do more shenanigans combo-wise. ESPECIALLY if they can be graceful in the air.

tl;dr: Bowser/Dedede/Kirby mains will feel like it's christmas for them here.

 

[kupo15]

This is, as it stands, incredibly weird. I guess if they ever feel like changing it in the future it'd be relatively easy(not like I'm asking for it), but this is just weird. I feel like if they made Vectoring away actually increase the hitstun and scale, it'd be more interesting. As it stands, pretty neutral so far.

Well that is a good point. Strongbad are you sure that hitstun isn't effected by this? It all depends on how VI is coded and when its applied. If it actually adds to the kb of a move and if hitstun is still calculated based on your launch speed (which is based partly on kb) then hitstun could very well be scaled.

If VI is applied after hitstun is calculated then you hitstun is not compensated for

 

[sheersahw]

I think that happens as a result of hitboxes already to begin with. Bowser is a bigger target, etc. But varying VI would be...really interesting, but probably a bad idea.

What would be so bad about it, I'm curious?

 

[Shaya]

Characters which were superb at rush down/frame trapping in Brawl will be stronger in this game due to this mechanic.
Characters who had weaker early percent games with moves that already weren't safe on hit unless otherwise immediately shielded or fast fell will be trading with aerial based fighters earlier a bit more consistently, being a tad annoying for most, but early percent bull**** is normal in both melee/brawl (crouch cancelling / tumble cancelling).

Honestly, another mechanic that will favour the likes of Zero Suit Samus, who has both horizontal and vertical options with such disparity and her otherwise top percentile mobility will allow her to capitalise on hits a lot more than other characters. Oh VI upwards to avoid getting combo'd by uair or from a throw? Take that Up-B that can kill you off the top at 50%! ETC ETC

Sword users in general, who IMO, were generally weaker in this game due to not being too combo heavy are buffed by this, their ability to get out of combos is a much bigger buff to them than a character getting out of theirs, when their disjoints and frame traps are inbuilt into their designs and are generally superior in neutral and in edge guarding.

Things are going to go towards a more Brawl-esque meta I'd say. But not in a bad way. Where the ability to reset to neutral and camp hard in that position has been significantly nerfed in this game overall, being able to not get properly combo'd isn't going to hurt us when the position you're in is significantly worse than it was in Brawl (nerfed air dodge), and overall I would prefer a game/meta with combos being limited to 2-3 hits primarily and reading/option coverage/frame traps will be the main keeper for skill level.

 

[Strong Badam]

Is anyone here good at video editing? The twitch archive isn't there anymore but I downloaded the .FLVs, but don't have the means to do add them together/trim them. Please tweet at me on Twitter (@Strong_Badam) if you're willing to help. I guess you could PM me here but I don't want to get 400 notifications.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Yeah... my excitement has been brought down tremendously after this.

I suppose I'll wait and see where this goes in the long run.

 

[micstar615]

I'm not really liking the sound of this. Combos already seem quite limited in this game, but I genuinely liked what I've seen done with them. However if this effects combos and makes them escapable then it'll just become more of a poke fest which is boring to watch and play imo. But it seems like there's some confusion on how exactly this'll effect the game in terms of combos and whatnot so I'll save my final judgment for later. Hopefully it won't be too game changing.

 

[x412]

Comparison graphic. Hope it helps. Let me know if this is wrong or not so I can take it down so there's less confusion.

 

[Spirst]

What would be so bad about it, I'm curious?

The fact that it would extend stocks even further and make the game go on seemingly forever. Large blastzones plus a way to manipulate knockback strength isn't a good combo for swift gameplay.

 

[Signia]

This doesn't do ANYTHING to low % combos.
The 10% or so you gain is not enough to escape a combo. It'll really only effect higher % combos, which you already cannot follow up because the knockback is too highl

No, there are a lot of low % combos that barely connect. Lots of guaranteed downthrow combos will fall out earlier because people will just VI up. Even a lot of utilt juggles are very tight links, holding up could allow escape from those too.

So... basically hold down to live?

Holding down and toward the stage is always the answer for survival DI.



This change does in fact remove a lot of DI mixups we had before.

Mixup between an upward killer and sideways killer? VI down-toward.

Mixup between a throw that must be hard DI'd away or a throw that must be DI'd up (like SSB4 Sheik's dthrow and fthrow)? VI up-away.

Mixup between a kill move and an upward hitting move that would continue a combo? (like Melee Falcon/Marth) VI up-toward.

Mixup between a kill move that sends you sideways and a combo filler move that should be DI'd away? Ok, that mixup is intact. Does that actually ever occur in Smash 4? Well, no, no situations where you're both in kill percent and combo percent exist, whereas in Melee you could have Sheik soft bair you if you DI in or fair you if you DI away, or Falcon could continue uairing you if you're afraid DI-away a knee. You rarely even have more than one option for combos in SSB4 in the first place.

Maybe that kind of situation would occur if you didn't have to kill them outright, just send them offstage, but as the metagame is right now, it's no big deal to be sent off stage with the way the ledge mechanics are.


Presence of DI mixups was already way overstated in Melee (there's usually one correct answer), and lack of hitstun and combos in Smash 4 would practically kill the DI mixup.

This VI mechanic finishes the job. "DI-mixups" are dead.

 

[TTTTTsd]

What would be so bad about it, I'm curious?

It would make certain characters able to escape easier for no real good reason. It would really just be odd and it would give certain characters an unnatural edge in terms of how bad they're punished when hit.

 

[Delzethin]

Wow, this is huge. So from what it sounds like, this explains the whole "Down DI" thing and why it can be used to let players survive that much longer? It actually sounds like a simpler and easier-to-utilize version of traditional DI, which would fit in to the mission we've heard of the developers wanting there to be less of a jump in technical skill for casual players wanting become competitive.

I'm a little concerned about just how much longer it'll let people survive, with the blastzones already further away than in previous games, but hopefully it won't be as huge a deal as it initially seems. I'm less concerned about it messing with combos, since the hitstun remains the same, just requiring a little more heads-up reaction to continue the combo.

Also, who thought I'd end up using all of that vectoring stuff I learned in high school physics for something practical? >_>

 

[TTTTTsd]

This does mean all of my Mario practice has gone to waste though. That feeling, god damn it, that feeling.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Comparison graphic. Hope it helps. Let me know if this is wrong or not so I can take it down so there's less confusion.

This explains it perfectly. Nice job!

 

[sheersahw]

It would make certain characters able to escape easier for no real good reason. It would really just be odd and it would give certain characters an unnatural edge in terms of how bad they're punished when hit.

For no good reason? It could be a factor in a character's balance. How much control a character has over their knockback would simply be another factor to mull over when choosing a character, like their speed or kill potential.

Or am I missing something here?

 

[Citricide]

TL:DR it's DI