Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[TTTTTsd]

For no good reason? It could be a factor in a character's balance. How much control a character has over their knockback would simply be another factor to mull over when choosing a character, like their speed or kill potential.

Or am I missing something here?

I am just of the opinion that it should be universal. A basic system mechanic like this should benefit everyone equally(at least on paper) given how big it is.

 

[GP&B]

For no good reason? It could be a factor in a character's balance. How much control a character has over their knockback would simply be another factor to mull over when choosing a character, like their speed or kill potential.

Or am I missing something here?

It's a universal mechanic that the victim influences. There's no character specific traits to it (as far as we know).

 

[Signia]

Honestly, another mechanic that will favour the likes of Zero Suit Samus, who has both horizontal and vertical options with such disparity and her otherwise top percentile mobility will allow her to capitalise on hits a lot more than other characters. Oh VI upwards to avoid getting combo'd by uair or from a throw? Take that Up-B that can kill you off the top at 50%! ETC ETC

I've seen people escape the last hit of Up-B. Maybe it was with VI-up?

 

[ancara22]

This does mean all of my Mario practice has gone to waste though. That feeling, god damn it, that feeling.

Don't panic yet, m8. When in doubt, we practice. We learn from where we goofed up. We git gud at new mechanics. And we do awesome things with what we're given. And hopefully not decided to make early rash decisions you all KNOW are infamously hard to overturn once set due to stubbornness and the like.

Mainly because, to be blunt, I'll be damned if I do all this practice starting friday for the game, only to find out people noped out because it was too changed or too weird or whatever, and thus no fun/excitement happens because we didn't get to have much of a tourny scene. Let's just hope we CAN make an omelet out of these eggs and find out good things.

 

[rawrimamonster]

This does mean all of my Mario practice has gone to waste though. That feeling, god damn it, that feeling.

I don't necessarily think it will immediately invalidate your practice, you should never stop practicing. In time people will learn the ways to Vector for each move so you'll have to adapt to peoples changing/advancing knowledge, so be prepared for it.

 

[sheersahw]

I am just of the opinion that it should be universal. A basic system mechanic like this should benefit everyone equally(at least on paper) given how big it is.

The mechanics of any character's VI would always be the same though, and regardless of what character you're playing, you'd want to VI away from combos and toward the stage. All that would vary is how effective certain characters are at doing that. I see giving different characters different levels of control over their VI no different then giving certain characters higher jumps or stronger tilts.

 

[Mythra]

Looks like we have a newcomer mechanic...

Spoiler: I hope people get the reference

Im so sorry...

Ok here's my point of view:
The VI looks like a more simple mechanic but at the same time will require more skill because is possible to make a "Bad Vector", but after some time (like most mentioned) we will learn to do good or "Perfect Vectors", we can define perfect vectors as as moving the control in the exact opposite direction of the knockback, doing that the substraction of said knockback is better.

I'll try to remind my Calculus stuff, so probably this may be right or plain wrong...

Example; your character gets knocked in an angle of 60 degrees (right direction) and that creates a vector with a magnitude of (4,5)
Moving straight down will cause a Vector of (0,-1) increasing your vertical resistance and a Knockback magnitude of (4,4) and a 45 degree angle.
Moving full left means a vector of (-1,0) increasing horizontal resistance and a Knockback magnitude of (3,5)
But moving left+down or (which means an angle of 240 degrees in the circular pad) gives a vector of (-1,-1) thus creating the perfect resistance for that knockback (3,4)

It looks complex but the principle is simple; opposing angles and directions to reduce the knockback power.

 

[Shawksta]

All these people stating how this "Kills the hype" are really overexaggerating and judging too quickly.

All the improvements and overall new mechanics to a unique and interesting metagame for Smash 4 and your just gonna go full depression because of a little escaping, Jesus Christ people your all a bunch of depressed downers, especially since most of Smash 4's combo's rely on characters escaping to even work, get a grip and give the game time to breathe and the players to adjust accordingly to find a counter, just like they did every other Smash game.

 

[Big-Cat]

I was talking with @Soul Blazer about what this means for followups. One thing that we need to consider is the vertical range of moves, namely what angles they cover when they are used.

Using this number notation as a reference:

789
456
123

A character with a tumbling NAir like Kirby, Bowser, and Villager will be able cover all angles with their NAir. However, the reduced guess work means that there is less reward involved. Then we have an NAir like Peach's that hits in the 4,5, and 6 directions with more damage, but does not hit above or below her. If she guesses wrong, she could lose her momentum or be punished. On the extreme end, you have Zelda's FAir that hits only in the 6 direction. If you sweet spot it though, it's incredibly rewarding making her kicks risky but reward.

In short, by taking into account the directions attacks cover, we can reduce the chances of our opponents escaping or find rewarding scenarios.

 

[ancara22]

Looks like we have a newcomer mechanic...

Spoiler: I hope people get the reference

Im so sorry...

Ok here's my point of view:
The VI looks like a more simple mechanic but at the same time will require more skill because is possible to make a "Bad Vector", but after some time (like most mentioned) we will learn to do good or "Perfect Vectors", we can define perfect vectors as as moving the control in the exact opposite direction of the knockback, doing that the substraction of said knockback is better.

I'll try to remind my Calculus stuff, so probably this may be right or plain wrong...

Example; your character gets knocked in an angle of 60 degrees (right direction) and that creates a vector with a magnitude of (4,5)
Moving straight down will cause a Vector of (0,-1) increasing your vertical resistance and a Kockback magnitude of (4,4) and a 45 degree angle.
Moving full left means a vector of (-1,0) increasing horizontal resistance and a Knockback magnitude of (3,5)
But moving left+down or (which means an angle of 240 degrees in the circular pad) gives a vector of (-1,-1) thus creating the perfect resistance for that knockback (3,4)

It looks complex but the principle is simple; opposing angles and directions to reduce the knockback power.

Man, that DOES look complex.

Likely means we got a LONG road ahead of us come friday, for obvious reasons.

 

[OniTheWolf]

Wow. I haven't even been able to get my hands on the demo yet (don't own a 3DS, so I am borrowing one on Friday), so all I have been doing is watching the CT and TourneyLocator videos, getting hyped.

Yet, already, the mega game is changing. This discovery certainly has some interesting implications, however, we will just have to wait and see what happens when this whole new "Vectoring" technique gets mastered , along with that other SDI technique in this game (I forgot what it was officially called). As I said, I haven't even been able to play the full demo yet and **** like this is already happening. It's crazy one you really out everything into perspective.

So many of us are used to holding up in the opposite direction and doing all of this stuff with the control stick in order to DI properly. Going to have to make that muscle memory obsolete for the most part now.

Props to the OP for all the time they invested into finding this new game changing mechanic out.

 

[Shawksta]

 

[TTTTTsd]

Can I ask a question? Does the level 9 AI VI at all? It's been what I've been practicing with....

 

[ancara22]

This is probably as simple as you can make it for people. Go one direction, hold the opposite, and pray that A.) your opponent doesn't bop you in the air, and B.) you can land safely.

 

[kupo15]

I guess I'm a visual learner. Someone should do a side by side comparison of all 4 Smash bros. Games for those of us who want to see what this looks like in action.

Hopefully this will help. In this situation a move won't kill you if you don't DI. If you DI this move up in melee the move still won't kill you. In Smash 4 if you DI the move up it will kill you

 

[Spinach Ops™]

Interesting reaction , but what does it mean !? D%<

 

[Japsy]

sup /v/

 

[Prism]

Sorry for saying this extremely simply, but from what I understand this basically means if you're being sent flying to the left and you don't want to die, you hold right?

 

[TTTTTsd]

That's a good way of putting it, yes.

I really hope people adapt to this and make something with it. It has potential but I have no idea what that potential is.

 

[sheersahw]

This change does make sense when you consider Sakurai's philosophy of removing mechanical complexity. VI, despite the complaints of competitive players, is much more natural and intuitive than DI to new and casual players. Sakurai is basically rewarding the casual player's natural instincts to hold the control stick towards the direction of the stage when they get knocked back, whereas before that instinct could prove to be useless or even detrimental to the player.

But then Sakurai must have since forever that players would naturally push towards the stage, and yet implemented DI in Melee anyways. I don't think that in the Melee days he cared about competitive players either--if he chose DI over VI, it must have been he thought it was the mechanic that provided the most enjoyable game experience, regardless of what the player's instincts were. What I'm worried about then is if he is getting carried away with his goal of removing mechanical complexity from Smash, if he is even willing to make the game less fun on even a casual level if it means the game is simpler mechanically.

Of course, it's possible that VI was implemented in an intelligent manner, and it won't remove the game's competitive viability. Namco is developing the game this time, and they do have knowledge of what makes a good competitive game. They must have influenced Sakurai to some degree.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Huh...So this will basically make matches a whole lot longer, right?

You know, this may sound really dumb or unrelated but, if this was 100% intentional then all of a sudden I think I know why you only get 2 lives in Classic Mode now. Maybe they really want this whole thing to catch on and for people to master it.

Anyway, this basically works the way I initially thought and hoped DI would work, so I have no issue with it conceptually. I'll see if my mind changes when it's actually put into practice.

 

[Tagxy]

Tangent, but Im very relieved that "down DI" isnt a thing and that theres a deeper mechanic behind it.

 

[Mikarugi]

the thing is, sure you'll escape combos, but really, your putting yourself higher up, this is not always a good position to be in especially with nerfed airdodges. This game doesn't need true combos to have an interesting followup game, since thanks to hitstun and as mentioned earlier, nerfed airdodges, the enemy will still be in a very disadvantageous position compared to Brawl making it more entertaining to watch and play

Also, 2 stock seems fine for this game, and it makes sense too, you can think of each stock being like a health bar in games that give you two health bars (Injustice, Killer Instinct, ect.) Really what I think is going to make this game interesting is the offstage play alongside the followup reads that weren't possible in brawl with the super safe air dodge and such.

 

[ancara22]

Interesting reaction , but what does it mean !? D%<

To put into math I think will make sense to anyone:

VI speed formula:
X - (X*0.10) - (X*Y) = Z
With X being your current percentage from 0.00 to 999.00, Y being the angle you go in (from a horizontal line (0), to a vertical line (1), used to keep track of which angle they go flying in) , and Z being the percentage the game goes for in setting your speed after being hit, after applying VI.

Hopefully I did the formula right, and it should make things as simple as possible for people, so it makes much more sense....I hope.

 

[Shadow_zero920]

Ooof. This is depressing.

 

[Signia]

Dashing and dancing in a shortened gyre
The falcon cannot combo into knee;
Combos fall apart; the hitstun cannot hold;
Neutral resets are loosed upon the meta,
The Brawl-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of hype is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Brawl
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with furry body and the head of a fox,
A glow bright and shining as the sun,
Is moving its quick thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant high-tier birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That thirteen years of relentless hype
Were vexed to no avail by inferior sequels,
And what new game, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

-Yeats, 20XX

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I never actually bothered to look into the specifics of how DI worked and VI seems to work pretty much the same way I assumed DI worked, so colour me indifferent.

Vectorial Influence/VI is definitely the name I prefer out of all the names proposed so far. Rolls off the tongue easily and describes the technique well.

 

[TTTTTsd]

On a side note, is this what it was like when DI was first discovered?

 

[666blaziken]

So I am guessing we are calling this... VI?

 

[Uffe]

I haven't seen any mention of the C-stick, unless people are referring to that as the "control stick". In comparison to the control schemes in Brawl with the Wiimote and GameCube controller, do you think the C-stick for the 3DS will make a difference in Sm4sh's mechanics as far as tech* goes?

*I'm not asking about teching.

 

[NewGuy79]

This does mean all of my Mario practice has gone to waste though. That feeling, god damn it, that feeling.

wait.. if up-tilt juggles don't work anymore because your opponents starts VI'ing up, why don't u just change it up and do some up-air strings.

all this really means to me is that players are gona have to be smatter with their followups if their goal is to combo the opponent, all we've lost are potential "guaranteed combos" which would probably get stale a year in anyways.... so .... whats the problem here?

 

[Cook]

Huh...So this will basically make matches a whole lot longer, right?

You know, this may sound really dumb or unrelated but, if this was 100% intentional then all of a sudden I think I know why you only get 2 lives in Classic Mode now. Maybe they really want this whole thing to catch on and for people to master it.

Anyway, this basically works the way I initially thought and hoped DI would work, so I have no issue with it conceptually. I'll see if my mind changes when it's actually put into practice.

I don't get this assumption that the new DI makes you live longer than the old DI would have. Both make you live longer. If DI had not changed, DIing properly would still make you live longer...

I don't get people.

 

[MachoCheeze]

So they made directional influence actually make sense.

 

[Yashichi]

Hopefully this will help. In this situation a move won't kill you if you don't DI. If you DI this move up in melee the move still won't kill you. In Smash 4 if you DI the move up it will kill you

is this correct? does this mean you could predict the opponent will VI in a way that will help kill them, and it will? of course they could VI correctly after the hit is done but if they initially goof it could lead to their death. still seems like it would make matches longer, but at least it's a seemingly decent trade off with traditional DI

 

[ToadsterOven]

I don't get this assumption that the new DI makes you live longer than the old DI would have. Both make you live longer. If DI had not changed, DIing properly would still make you live longer...

I don't get people.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Melee/PM thanks to Directional Influence, isn't it possible for your character of choice to generally live up to 140-150% and beyond? Thanks to the increased emphasis on offstage play in 4, I don't see this being much of a problem so long as meteor smashs, strong as **** projectiles, etc are used effectively in that type of situation.

So they made directional influence actually make sense.

Seems like they have and a bit easier to understand as well.

 

[d z]

Good work Strong Bad. I feel like I read this, but now I am not able to find it, can you confirm that you are currently under the impression that hitsun is calculated based on initial knockback and not the "vectored" knockback? Thus allowing you to essentially increase knockback from a combo move without costing yourself any extra hitstun.

 

[Raijinken]

At the very least, it is actually more intuitive (at least to me) than regular DI. I like it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Uploaded the twitch archive (thank god I saved it):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aArzZUr0_z4

Thanks @Kadano for trimming it for me.

Good work Strong Bad. I feel like I read this, but now I am not able to find it, can you confirm that you are currently under the impression that hitsun is calculated based on initial knockback and not the "vectored" knockback? Thus allowing you to essentially increase knockback from a combo move without costing yourself any extra hitstun.

Yeah, you don't suffer any more hitstun.

 

[Noctes]

As with a lot of others here, this is kind of how I thought DI already worked, so this is actually better for me because it just feels more intuitive.

I dont mind this change at all. It will lengthen games a bit, but they're already much longer than Melee and Brawl because of the general better recoveries of most fighters and the far blast zones. 2-3 stocks will be fine.

Besides, the game is fun, most of the fighters seem much more balanced and viable compared to both Melee and Brawl, I'm happy.

 

[Yashichi]

the game will definitely speed up when characters become more developed so it's not the end of the world