Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[kupo15]

do you not still want to DI towards the corner of the blast zone to live longer? like instead of DIing down, you'd still want to DI down and right to survive vertical KO moves right?

No. DIing to the corners does nothing anymore. Before you had a set kb that you simply altered the trajectory so the kb was distributed as in no kb was added or removed. Now with VI you add or remove kb strength which means the most optimal survival "DI" is now the exact opposite angle you were sent which is always going to be "inwards"

 

[KVLTofMetal]

Oh good jesus.
People are already whining for patches.
This isn't going to effect low percentage combos much/at all
You all can keep some of your combos. Now you just have to get better at reads.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

It doesn't move or shuffle you though. It literally just changes the knockback vector. When you press/hold a direction, outside of SDI, it just adds something to the knockback power/direction equation. I could press up/left/right/down a million times or even somehow hold them all at once and I wouldn't be "shuffled" or "scooted" or moved anywhere. This isn't SDI, this is just a part of an equation.

Uh huh, and I'm saying the description for hitstun shuffling says you "shift" in a direction which is only indirectly true as a result of a different trajectory, and I think it makes more sense that Nintendo is imprecisely describing vectoring here as opposed to describing SDI because it's an obscure mechanic.

 

[MechaWave]

time to increase knockback to 1.2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TheRage]

Why is it that when I used to think of DI, vectoring came to mind? Perhaps this is the mechanic Sakurai wanted to implement all along...

 

[Krynxe]

I'm still a little confused. What's the difference between holding 45 degrees above the horizontal (say up-right) and 30 degrees above the horizontal?

At what angle does it stop being up and right simultaneous, and start being just right?

Again, think of the circle pad as a square

If you hold the stick at 45 degrees up-right, you're making a line from the center of the square to the top-right corner. That means you're moving from the center to the top edge (100% upwards vectoring) and from the center to the right edge (100% horizontal vectoring)

If you hold the stick at 30 degrees up-right, you're making a line from the center to only the right edge of the square. You're still moving to the far right edge of the square (100% horizontal vectoring) but you aren't going all the way up. I don't want to keep talking about trigonometry since it seems to confuse people more than help, but basically it's only partly upwards (not 100% upwards vectoring)

 

[Shiznaz]

Horizontal directions DO change your trajectory! Quite a bit. But the vertical component of your knockback remains unchanged, and you still die at the same percents.

So according to this, would you say vertical kill moves are more effective than horizontal kill moves?

 

[Strong Badam]

So the impression I'm getting from this thread is

DI'ing in past games to ensure survivability, prevent being combo'ed, wherever else you would apply DI, etc. No big deal

Vectoring which is more or less a substitute for DI...

Everybody loses their lunch and starts fear mongering it as a huge blow to Smash 4's competitive scene.

Am I missing something here?

I was thinking the same thing. Yes "DI" has changed in this game, but does it really make the game worse? A lot of people make assumptions without even playing much of the game and just from listening to what Strong Bad is saying.

You're being silly. I've explained why this legitimately changes the combo game significantly more than the previous DI mechanics, and mitigates them much more than DI used to. Many players hoping to play this game competitively were excited by the combos we were seeing in early gameplay, but after just 1 day trying to Vector, these became impossible at significantly lower percents. Is that a bad thing? That's subjective, but to the general populace it makes the game less fun to both play and to watch, which doesn't bode well for its competitive future. Arguing that it's not huge with no information at all is worse than arguing that it is huge with limited information.

 

[Bl00dyBizkitz]

Honestly, it's way too early to be making a judgment call on how this will effect the game.

I don't really like it tho. Bad vibes.

 

[Player -0]

@ Strong Badam @Nazo says that GI (Gravitational Influence) is better.

Edit - Also, so you can "DI" a direction but the knockback increases so you would die at the same percent?

 

[jondgc]

Respectfully, I do not think this mechanic will have the negative impact everyone is foreseeing. I feel the impact will be negligible, if only because top players will adjust their game and playstyle. This is not suddenly going to cause time-outs in tournaments, or have characters live into 200%s. Moreover, the game has only been out for four days, and not even released in most territories. Many of the people concerned over this mechanic have only had access to the demo, and will not fully form their opinion until playing the full game. Other tactics will be developed as players have more time with the game, so why not take the "wait and see" approach, instead of the "doom and gloom" approach?

 

[Mythra]

Oh good jesus.
People are already whining for patches.
This isn't going to effect low percentage combos much/at all
You all can keep some of your combos. Now you just have to get better at reads.

THIS
For those joining us, please read the OP, we can make conclusions when we all have the game in our hands

 

[Pierce7d]

Great find Strong Bad!

 

[AttackstorM]

So if I'm understanding this "vectoring" right..... In order to live longer you just hold the exact opposite direction of your trajectory? Is that right ???? @ Strong Badam

 

[Krynxe]

Thanks that helps clears things up a lot. So there's only 4 regions for this? -45 to 45, 45 to 135, 135 to -135, and -135 to -45?

You could look at it that way. All of the degrees within those regions will have slightly different results though

anything from -45 to 45 will count as full right, but anything in the negatives will move you downwards based on how far you hold down, same for upwards. Etc etc for every other range

 

[CSDragon]

Hopefully the community won't stick to old terminology. This is mechanically different from Direction Influence entirely.

But really great findings. This will surely change the way smash is played

I wouldn't say that, it's basically DI that can work in any direction instead of just perpendicular to the attack.

If we were to change the name, I'd call it DI+ just because it's still directional influence, and while the mechanic might not be exactly the same, the old results are still very much attainable, but there are new results available.

 

[Krynxe]

So if I'm understanding this "vectoring" right..... In order to live longer you just hold the exact opposite direction of your trajectory? Is that right guys????

pretty much, yes.

I wouldn't say that, it's basically DI that can work in any direction instead of just perpendicular to the attack.

If we were to change the name, I'd call it DI+ just because it's still directional influence, and while the mechanic might not be exactly the same, the old results are still very much attainable, but there are new results available.

But you don't change your direction any more. You add to your knockback (in the opposite direction to survive). You can increase survivability without changing your direction whatsoever. That isn't influencing your direction, the term DI is not correct. You can literally go in the same direction with different knockback

 

[Overswarm]

It can be pretty variable, though, and in many cases they are very close to each other.

For better or worse, this should also encourage every character to use different throws as a mix-up or for positioning, instead of the "why would you not do D-Throw as Melee Falcon/Brawl Falco/etc." That's some improvement, IMO.

I can indeed confirm that an incorrect use of Vector results in the player being put in a poor position.

Megaman's d-throw -> fair is possible with no vector input, but if the user holds up it makes it difficult to follow up with anything. However, if you u-throw and they are vectoring up then it puts them in an awful position as Megaman gets to u-air wall, metal blade, and then try to attack.

This is a simplistic thing, but the start of some awesome mixups. All this doom and gloom of "oh no no combos and guaranteed setups out of grabs" is boring.

 

[Mythra]

So if I'm understanding this "vectoring" right..... In order to live longer you just hold the exact opposite direction of your trajectory? Is that right ???? @ Strong Badam

Yep, this is like the TL;DR version of this mechanic explanation

I wanted to call this "Angle Countering/Opoosition" but after all this discussion I finally got confused.

 

[FormlessD]

It'd be good if we had video of this, just to get a sense of how much this'll affect the game. Not to discredit Strongbad, but we can get a more accurate view. Trying some low percent combos with and without, and high damage kill thresholds.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Thanks for giving the community a heads-up, Strong Bad.

I guess we'll see how this goes.

Smooth Criminal

 

[shnizalwizal]

You're being silly. I've explained why this legitimately changes the combo game significantly more than the previous DI mechanics, and mitigates them much more than DI used to. Many players hoping to play this game competitively were excited by the combos we were seeing in early gameplay, but after just 1 day trying to Vector, these became impossible at significantly lower percents. Is that a bad thing? That's subjective, but to the general populace it makes the game less fun to both play and to watch, which doesn't bode well for its competitive future. Arguing that it's not huge with no information at all is worse than arguing that it is huge with limited information.

I didn't argue that is isn't huge, I said that people are making assumptions on how much it will affect the game before we have even played it competitively.

I am not being silly, please don't call me silly~

 

[T-block]

Again, think of the circle pad as a square

If you hold the stick at 45 degrees up-right, you're making a line from the center of the square to the top-right corner. That means you're moving from the center to the top edge (100% upwards vectoring) and from the center to the right edge (100% horizontal vectoring)

If you hold the stick at 30 degrees up-right, you're making a line from the center to only the right edge of the square. You're still moving to the far right edge of the square (100% horizontal vectoring) but you aren't going all the way up. I don't want to keep talking about trigonometry since it seems to confuse people more than help, but basically it's only partly upwards (not 100% upwards vectoring)

Okay gotcha - thanks.

 

[A Lucky Person]

Very impressive find. This is a huge mechanic change, and you figured it out in 4 days!

On a similar note, it's much too early to make a judgment call about how this affects competitive play positively/negatively. The meta hasn't even begun to develop.

 

[Tagxy]

Very cool find. Im also on board with this term being named hitstun shuffling as seems to be indicated within the game, no point giving it a different name.

Also I think most peeps are trying to draw serious implications too early, which seems to be a common though perhaps unavoidable habit of our community as we generally dont have a good track record in this regard.

 

[Untouch]

If it only effects vertical speed, this isn't hurting MOST combos.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again.

If the maximum speed multiplier is 10%, that only means combos where if you were going 10% faster can be escaped, and only combos that are vertical.

 

[Remzi]

Very interesting! Thanks for the info Strong Bad. A quick question (and I apologize if it's been asked already):

Is it similar to DI in that you need to have inputted your vector direction by the time you are exiting hitlag?

Also, given the fact that this scales and effects knockback more at higher percents, I doubt it'll have TOO big an impact on comboing.

 

[GP&B]

If it only effects vertical speed, this isn't hurting MOST combos.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again.

If the maximum speed multiplier is 10%, that only means combos where if you were going 10% faster can be escaped, and only combos that are vertical.

This is all knockback.

 

[Accelerator]

THIS
For those joining us, please read the OP, we can make conclusions when we all have the game in our hands

Do people want Sm4sh to succeed so badly that they have points in reading comprehension? A better read will not save the combo, because he will be out of hitstun.

DI and VI are not the same. DI was a guessing game that you'd supplement with knowledge you've gathered from the persons playstyle. VI let's you play a part in the amount of knock back you suffer in a given moment. This means that it doesn't have to be a guessing game, there will always be a right option, that option being get out of hit stun.

And to the people arguing over the name of this tech, Since Strong Bad found it, tested it, collected data, and presented it to the community at large; he gets the naming rights. It's VI, deal with it.

 

[sheersahw]

I think the name Vector Influence, or VI, would make the most sense as a name. It describes what's happening perfectly.

It might not be a huge deal. Wouldn't we need to know just how much VI you can actually exert at low percentages?

Also, is the amount of VI you can exert the same for all characters? It'd be interesting if some characters had the ability to escape combos more easily than others.

 

[Untouch]

This is all knockback.

Ok, knockback. My point still stands.

 

[theONEjanitor]

do you not still want to DI towards the corner of the blast zone to live longer? like instead of DIing down, you'd still want to DI down and right to survive vertical KO moves right?

No. DIing to the corners does nothing anymore. Before you had a set kb that you simply altered the trajectory so the kb was distributed as in no kb was added or removed. Now with VI you add or remove kb strength which means the most optimal survival "DI" is now the exact opposite angle you were sent which is always going to be "inwards"

lol so the game adds knockback if you DI
the hell

 

[Cort]

Ohh interesting

 

[Renji64]

but being able to escape low-percent combos is not a good thing. The return of combos was one of the things I was excited about, but with vectoring reducing a lot of the possible follow ups you can get, I see Smash 4 possibly going in a defensive neutral metagame.

 

[ancara22]

On one hand, this is VERY useful info and can very good to know and get practice about for in case it comes into play at special moment for certain characters. Definitely good info for character guides and the like for doing better.

On the OTHER hands though......I'm hearing/seeing a LOT of people, to be blunt (apologies), flipping the **** out about this, how it's "RUINING SMASH 4 FOREVER, GO BACK TO MELEE/PROJECT M BEST GAME DEN OUTTA DEN" and so forth, and some are making up lies of pro Smashers quitting the game instantly like M2K, Zero and so forth to go back to Melee right now, and on and on. And I'm worried because of this one thing, people are gonna fearmonger, or just use any excuse to bash the game and try to get everyone to stay Melee/PM forever or kill Smash 4 competitive action because of change, or not wanting to lose money from their usual tourny action. I ain't saying everyone there is like that, but there are those who definitely are who do stupid stuff like this. And ya know who you are, if you're seeing this.

All I can say, is we need to not lose our heads over this one detail we've found out yet. We should keep cool, study this more-so, get video footage, and hopefully we can do well enough to git gud even if there's shenanigans about with this. Let's just hope all goes well, because if there's one thing I CAN'T stand ever, it's people who try to tarnish/ruin a game's tourny/competitive scene just so his game's scene stays on top for ages longer. Makes me the saltiest man alive when that happens....hopefully this doesn't happen to Smash 4 and it goes well, m8s.

 

[RATED]

ADAM! I KNOW WHAT TO CALL THIS MECHANIC/TECHNIQUE!

VI

Vector
Influence

Bahahahaha (k pay me monies for being totally legit)

As someone who hasnt used swf in years, is good to know you are still a cool poster

 

[T-block]

I made a quick graphic to help explain this to people (especially those unfamiliar with vectors).

Hope it helps =x

 

[Untouch]

but being able to escape low-percent combos is not a good thing. The return of combos was one of the things I was excited about, but with vectoring reducing a lot of the possible follow ups you can get, I see Smash 4 possibly going in a defensive neutral metagame.

This doesn't do ANYTHING to low % combos.
The 10% or so you gain is not enough to escape a combo. It'll really only effect higher % combos, which you already cannot follow up because the knockback is too highl

 

[sheersahw]

On one hand, this is VERY useful info and can very good to know and get practice about for in case it comes into play at special moment for certain characters. Definitely good info for character guides and the like for doing better.

On the OTHER hands though......I'm hearing/seeing a LOT of people, to be blunt (apologies), flipping the **** out about this, how it's "RUINING SMASH 4 FOREVER, GO BACK TO MELEE/PROJECT M BEST GAME DEN OUTTA DEN" and so forth, and some are making up lies of pro Smashers quitting the game instantly like M2K, Zero and so forth to go back to Melee right now, and on and on. And I'm worried because of this one thing, people are gonna fearmonger, or just use any excuse to bash the game and try to get everyone to stay Melee/PM forever or kill Smash 4 competitive action because of change, or not wanting to lose money from their usual tourny action. I ain't saying everyone there is like that, but there are those who definitely are who do stupid stuff like this. And ya know who you are, if you're seeing this.

All I can say, is we need to not lose our heads over this one detail we've found out yet. We should keep cool, study this more-so, get video footage, and hopefully we can do well enough to git gud even if there's shenanigans about with this. Let's just hope all goes well, because if there's one thing I CAN'T stand ever, it's people who try to tarnish/ruin a game's tourny/competitive scene just so his game's scene stays on top for ages longer. Makes me the saltiest man alive when that happens....hopefully this doesn't happen to Smash 4 and it goes well, m8s.

It's also important to note that there is something that can be done with Smash 4 that couldn't be done with previous Smashes--patches. If VI does prove to be a problem, rather than throwing tantrums, it might be worth a shot to try and bring these concerns to Nintendo's attention. Nintendo can be very stubborn, but if people are loud enough and state their position eloquently and professionally, we might see some adjustments later on.

 

[Generically Epic]

So... basically hold down to live?