Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[LancerStaff]

Combo's as hype as this?

Pretty darned sure a lvl9 wouldn't fall for that, much less a pro.

I'm frustrated that it exists, but I realized after thinking for more than 5 seconds that keeping this to myself would have accomplished nothing. People would have discovered this soon even without me.

The game doesn't seem to be balanced around it, or if it is, they do not want combos to happen or for characters to die until 150%+.

We don't even know how much it'll effect things. What the heck, aren't you supposed to be talking reason here?

 

[theONEjanitor]

do you not still want to DI towards the corner of the blast zone to live longer? like instead of DIing down, you'd still want to DI down and right to survive vertical KO moves right?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Whether it's balanced around it or not, the biggest effect this will have on the game is that people will have more of an ability to escape low-percent options. This means that low-percent strings and pressure will be much more varied; there will be fewer "this works every time, bread-and-butter" things, which is arguably a good thing.

There will still be a good bit of combos, as what would've been optimal DI in past Smash games against setup throws often appears to be the best direction for VI in Smash 4 against those same moves, so they are unlikely to see significant differences there. It can also be used against you, since if VI affects you a good deal more at low percents than DI did, a quick tilt or Smash could put you into edgeguard position that much faster with bad VI. A simple example would be between Mario D-Tilt (which benefits from greater hitstun in Smash 4) and D-Smash; if the opponent holds Forward, D-Tilt sets up for lots of nastiness, and holding Away puts you offstage earlier from D-Smash.

I'm sure that many examples will be found in the coming months where this creates significant mix-ups, both offensively and defensively, even at lower percents.

 

[Strong Badam]

No, stop, I already explained why optimal DI in previous Smash games is a different direction than optimal Vectoring in Smash 4. Pls.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

I think "Hitstun Shuffling" is referring to vectoring, because SDI is a significantly more obscure mechanic that most casuals would never even notice on their own, while most casuals who do play long enough will find out about hitstun shuffling/vectoring.

 

[Gidy]

Pretty darned sure a lvl9 wouldn't fall for that, much less a pro.



We don't even know how much it'll effect things. What the heck, aren't you supposed to be talking reason here?

It certainly is going to affect hitstun and I don't like it. If you've been watch Smash 4 the last couple days on twitch, you can see the combos that people are doing. Everythings gonna change now.

 

[Player-1]

I explained it here
http://smashboards.com/threads/vect...luence-in-smash-4.368780/page-2#post-17604020

Not sure if I understood that right, can you answer it in terms of my previous example?

 

[wiiztec]

I'm going to call it DI.

I'll call it IDI or Intuitive DI, just hold against the knockback angle to surive.

 

[Big-Cat]

Vectoring is a 9 way tech escape basically.

 

[[TSON]]

I think "Hitstun Shuffling" is referring to vectoring, because SDI is a significantly more obscure mechanic that most casuals would never even notice on their own, while most casuals who do play long enough will find out about hitstun shuffling/vectoring.

...But there's no shuffling involved and it has nothing to do with hitstun so why would they call it that?

 

[Halfhead]

It's not circular. As in Brawl, the control pad's input isn't coded particularly well. The "max" inputs are scaled to 1 in the in-game coding, but you're allowed to go further than that. So basically while a "right" input is (1,0), a diagonal input is (1,1) despite the control stick being circular. If the inputs were properly scaled to be circular, it'd be something like (0.707, 0.707) (cosine and sine of 45 degrees respectively). But that's not the case here.
Your trig is off, btw. It'd be (20sqrt2/2) or (10sqrt2).

GASP!! My trig! How embarrassing!

That's interesting how a diagonal input is accepted into the game. I was about to be super into this new mechanic, now I'm thinking that it needed a little more work...

 

[LancerStaff]

It certainly is going to affect hitstun and I don't like it. If you've been watch Smash 4 the last couple days on twitch, you can see the combos that people are doing. Everythings gonna change now.

You don't know how different it will actually be yet. There is zero data pointing to a significant change. If it only amounts to a few pixels then you will of made a big deal over nothing.

 

[Espy Rose]

You are both scrubs.


That said, I can think of no way that this mechanic is a good thing. This is going to heavily hurt combos and increase survivability probably more than the old DI system ever did.

It'll be fine.

 

[EEvisu]

I'm calling it Control Control

 

[FlareHabanero]

I would just wait a while and see if it really does cause a lot of centralizing.

If it does, at least we can be vocal about it on websites like Facebook and Twitter, and if it becomes a big enough concern we may get a patch in the future nerfing the effects. But again, that's only if it's truly centralizing. As in you have to heavily rely on it in order to stand a ghost of a chance.

 

[ToadsterOven]

So the impression I'm getting from this thread is

DI'ing in past games to ensure survivability, prevent being combo'ed, wherever else you would apply DI, etc. No big deal

Vectoring which is more or less a substitute for DI...

Everybody loses their lunch and starts fear mongering it as a huge blow to Smash 4's competitive scene.

Am I missing something here?

 

[Player-3]

this is useless what place does this have in competitive play

 

[stingers]

Well he's got a point, it would be called "Hitlag Shuffling" if they were trying to be accurate with it and it were describing SDI. But I also doubt the nintendo translator guy is as big on competitive smash bros as we are, so maybe not important enough of a nomenclature distinction to matter.

But the fact it's so ambiguous suggests to me we should just make a community name for it anyway. And most importantly, VI is easier to pronounce than Hitstun shuffling

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No, stop, I already explained why optimal DI in previous Smash games is a different direction than optimal Vectoring in Smash 4. Pls.

It can be pretty variable, though, and in many cases they are very close to each other.

For better or worse, this should also encourage every character to use different throws as a mix-up or for positioning, instead of the "why would you not do D-Throw as Melee Falcon/Brawl Falco/etc." That's some improvement, IMO.

 

[Strong Badam]

Well he's got a point, it would be called "Hitlag Shuffling" if they were trying to be accurate with it and it were describing SDI. But I also doubt the nintendo translator guy is as big on competitive smash bros as we are, so maybe not important enough of a nomenclature distinction to matter.

But the fact it's so ambiguous suggests to me we should just make a community name for it anyway. And most importantly, VI is easier to pronounce than Hitstun shuffling

In most fighting games, the phenomenon we describe as Hitlag is actually referred to as Hitstun.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

...But there's no shuffling involved and it has nothing to do with hitstun so why would they call it that?

Because you have to input it while in hitstun and it "shuffles" is just a fancy way of saying move. I don't think it makes that much sense either but it makes more sense than Nintendo trying to explain Smash DI to the world when very few will notice it.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Pretty darned sure a lvl9 wouldn't fall for that, much less a pro.

Exactly. I'm HIGHLY doubtful that would have worked if Link just threw out an airdodge or his super fast Nair. Only the Uair -> Up B at the end appeared to keep him hitstun to me.

...But there's no shuffling involved and it has nothing to do with hitstun so why would they call it that?

 

[Player-1]

Let's just ban this, if you're caught vectoring in tournament automatic DQ and removal from the venue.

 

[LancerStaff]

So the impression I'm getting from this thread is

DI'ing in past games to ensure survivability, prevent being combo'ed, wherever else you would apply DI, etc. No big deal

Vectoring which is more or less a substitute for DI...

Everybody loses their lunch and starts fear mongering it as a huge blow to Smash 4's competitive scene.

Am I missing something here?

It's slightly more potent, but we don't know the extent. Yeah, I'm about as confused as you are.

this is useless what place does this have in competitive play

How's about we actually use it for more then an hour before we determine it's worth?

Let's just ban this, if you're caught vectoring in tournament automatic DQ and removal from the venue.

Can't tell if serious.

 

[xDD-Master]

Name Suggestion:

Vectorial Influence
or
Vectorial DI

VI or VDI

It will stick better this way. Vectoring wont stick and people will continue to call it DI.



Very cool and interesting find btw.! Thanks a lot

 

[Mythra]

I don't know why people is overreacting so much, this is a New Mechanic, which means it needs further experimentation (and some Math knowledge) to fully understand it and see how this affects competitive battling. Honestly Im 50/50 with this: Is exciting because we can make new strategies to survive longer, but Im a little bit worried about combo stuff and influence in jabs.
It's better to wait to play the game by oneself.

 

[Shawksta]

I couldve sworn we had this exact thing back in Brawl where you reduce the distance you've been smashed in, i dont really think this is particularly new, what's new is that it can happen vertically now, not a whole evolution really.
Still interesting.

Regarding Sm4sh's position in this, not really a big deal, it wouldve been a bigger significant movement if this was still Brawl, except its not, New Smash's mechanics doesnt really stop it from not being hype all the way through and we still have a long way to learn when we get the game overseas, if anything this makes matches more exciting, personally, seeing people die too quickly isnt hype, neither is a match dragging to long, its funny how consistant Sm4sh is being to literally stay between Melee and Brawl in so many areas, which is exactly what its being.

 

[JoeInky]

So the impression I'm getting from this thread is

DI'ing in past games to ensure survivability, prevent being combo'ed, wherever else you would apply DI, etc. No big deal

Vectoring which is more or less a substitute for DI...

Everybody loses their lunch and starts fear mongering it as a huge blow to Smash 4's competitive scene.

Am I missing something here?

Old DI would just alter your trajectory and the other player could still followup if they read properly.

New thing will increase (or decrease) the distance people will travel, meaning they'll be out of hit stun and able to act before you can reach them for a followup, even if you did correctly read the direction.


They both have different applications/implications, they aren't the same thing.

 

[stingers]

In most fighting games, the phenomenon we describe as Hitlag is actually referred to as Hitstun.

Are you sure? I think it's more like Hitfreeze or Impact freeze. I was always under the impression hitstun was described the same as we described it in smash.

 

[Player-3]

How's about we actually use it for more then an hour before we determine it's worth?

wtf? i figured out practically the entirety of smash 4 after playing like 3 games, that took no more than 10 minutes i dont even have to test this to know its pointless, just like how i played megaman once in the demo and know hes bottom 3 along with little mac.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Exactly. I'm HIGHLY doubtful that would have worked if Link just threw out an airdodge or his super fast Nair. Only the Uair -> Up B at the end appeared to keep him hitstun to me.

I've tried that combo against humans several times in the demo, and even asked them to mash airdodge and Nair. They couldn't do anything. It's a true combo.

 

[buzz-roll]

... exciting because we can make new strategies to survive longer, ...

Characters are already surviving to very high percents without this. Of course "exciting" is subjective but to me surviving longer is ResidentSleeper

 

[Krynxe]

Not sure if I understood that right, can you answer it in terms of my previous example?

okay

1. Why would it be the same x-component? You're saying the that if I'm sent 180 degrees left and I hold 0 degrees right then that will be the same same as holding 30 degrees?

I terms of surviving, yes. The important thing as that you are still somewhere in the range of -45 and 45 degrees, which the game recognizes as "you are fully holding right". It can be like "you are fully holding right and a little up" (30 degrees) but it still counts as right. Think of it like a square instead of a circle. If you draw a line with an endpoint at the center of the square and at the right edge of the square, the change in your x-direction will always be the same. Same logic here

If so, you mentioned that being sent up 90 degrees and holding directly horizontally (0 or 180 degrees) did nothing to help you survive, so taking that concept and applying it horizontally being sent 180 degrees and holding 90 degrees up doesn't do anything (except for the fall speed of the character like Strong Bad mentioned).

This is correct. It's simple vector addition. You are sent straight up with a certain force (your knockback. Holding left or right will add (not change) your knockback slightly in that direction. You are now telling the game "instead of sending me 100 units upwards, now send me 100 units upwards and 20 units to the right". Either way, you are still being sent 100 units upward. Being sent 180 and holding 90 degrees also does nothing to help you survive. You are going equally far to the left, but you are also going up in addition to your going left. Holding 30 degrees, however, tells the game to move you to the right and upwards. You're subtracting your knockback by adding negative knockback (to the right) and the upwards knockback you gain is only to help you get back to the stage a little easier

 

[T-block]

I'm still a little confused. What's the difference between holding 45 degrees above the horizontal (say up-right) and 30 degrees above the horizontal?

At what angle does it stop being up and right simultaneous, and start being just right?

 

[[TSON]]

Because you have to input it while in hitstun and it "shuffles" is just a fancy way of saying move. I don't think it makes that much sense either but it makes more sense than Nintendo trying to explain Smash DI to the world when very few will notice it.

It doesn't move or shuffle you though. It literally just changes the knockback vector. When you press/hold a direction, outside of SDI, it just adds something to the knockback power/direction equation. I could press up/left/right/down a million times or even somehow hold them all at once and I wouldn't be "shuffled" or "scooted" or moved anywhere. This isn't SDI, this is just a part of an equation.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Hitlag is the extra frames where characters' animations seem 'frozen' when a move hits.
Hitstun is the time that a character is unable to action after a hit lands.
Here's a cool video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2m-_SuUWGI

 

[LancerStaff]

wtf? i figured out practically the entirety of smash 4 after playing like 3 games, that took no more than 10 minutes i dont even have to test this to know its pointless, just like how i played megaman once in the demo and know hes bottom 3 along with little mac.

Now I really can't tell if serious.

Characters are already surviving to very high percents without this. Of course "exciting" is subjective but to me surviving longer is ResidentSleeper

Watching combos go on for infinity isn't all that fun either.

 

[Mythra]

Characters are already surviving to very high percents without this. Of course "exciting" is subjective but to me surviving longer is ResidentSleeper

Well, yeah that's my personal opinion, maining a glass cannon like Zelda makes me focus on survival, some may like the VDI and some not, but I think that some people are using this mechanic unconciously, it's a normal reflex to move the pad in the opposite directions (like moving down when a character gets knocked upwards)

Anyway, I think this mechanic is simple but we're making it too complex for ourselves.

 

[Player-1]

okay



I terms of surviving, yes. The important thing as that you are still somewhere in the range of -45 and 45 degrees, which the game recognizes as "you are fully holding right". It can be like "you are fully holding right and a little up" (30 degrees) but it still counts as right. Think of it like a square instead of a circle. If you draw a line with an endpoint at the center of the square and at the right edge of the square, the change in your x-direction will always be the same. Same logic here

This is correct. It's simple vector addition. You are sent straight up with a certain force (your knockback. Holding left or right will add (not change) your knockback slightly in that direction. You are now telling the game "instead of sending me 100 units upwards, now send me 100 units upwards and 20 units to the right". Either way, you are still being sent 100 units upward. Being sent 180 and holding 90 degrees also does nothing to help you survive. You are going equally far to the left, but you are also going up in addition to your going left. Holding 30 degrees, however, tells the game to move you to the right and upwards. You're subtracting your knockback by adding negative knockback (to the right) and the upwards knockback you gain is only to help you get back to the stage a little easier

Thanks that helps clears things up a lot. So there's only 4 regions for this? -45 to 45, 45 to 135, 135 to -135, and -135 to -45?

 

[shnizalwizal]

So the impression I'm getting from this thread is

DI'ing in past games to ensure survivability, prevent being combo'ed, wherever else you would apply DI, etc. No big deal

Vectoring which is more or less a substitute for DI...

Everybody loses their lunch and starts fear mongering it as a huge blow to Smash 4's competitive scene.

Am I missing something here?

I was thinking the same thing. Yes "DI" has changed in this game, but does it really make the game worse? A lot of people make assumptions without even playing much of the game and just from listening to what Strong Bad is saying.