Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[Player-1]

I had you both beat 8)

You will be featured in the next Smash documentary along with Strong Bad if this catches on

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Hit stun Shuffling = HS.

There, now it's abbreviated and peeps can stop acting like it's convoluted. Vectoring seems like a boon to me, since now slow but powerful characters might finally have an edge in a way.

I personally like VDI - people are already familiar with the concept of DI and to be honest VDI, both in name and concept, seems like a natural extension of DIing.

 

[DMG]

@ Player-1 : No we had it right. He has VI for vectorial influence, we have VI for vector influence. Ours is def better and we should get millions instead

Edit: what would VDI stand for? This is different from DI, and would probably add confusion trying to add DI to the name

 

[Shadow the Past]

You will be featured in the next Smash documentary along with Strong Bad if this catches on

Take notes kids, this is how you become a legend

 

[[TSON]]

From what I gather, neither DI nor SDI exists in Smash 4, replaced by this new mechanic, which (for simplicity's sake), probably works like Automatic Smash DI, but kicks in after hitlag freeze, much like traditional DI.

If this is correct (and I have no way to know for sure right now), this would mean that escaping multi-hit moves is limited to an input that is basically the same as ASDI (just hold the direction you want to move), and instead of "teleporting" in that direction, you just suffer a change in overal knockback amount/direction.

This seems to scale in some way, and that scaling might be a replacement for (or addition to, perhaps) the SDI multiplier seen on some moves in past Smash games. For example, Ivysaur N-Air in Brawl had a low SDI multiplier, so each SDI input had less effect than most other moves with similar damage/hitlag.

There is definitely still SDI. Try with Pika dsmash, mash up and you can escape if you're mashing hard enough. It's way lower than Brawl though. I think SDI is separate from Vectoring, and what Vectoring will allow you to do is just, as described in the OP, average your knockback force with a small force in the direction you are holding the stick that is applied when the knockback begins.

Also, Strong Bad says in the OP that the ideal way to Vector a horizontal kill move is to do it the same way as before, but if the effects of Vectoring are like he described, the ideal way to Vector is Inward + Upward. Inward is to subtract from the KB force, and upward is to augment the angle to send towards the corner of the stage.

 

[T-block]

One thing I'm a little skeptical of is the down-right thing. If holding up-right (at 45 degrees) is equivalent to simultaneously holding up and holding right, what about holding up-right at 40 degrees? 35 degrees?

Is the circle divided into 8 zones of 45 degrees (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW), or is there more to it?

 

[Bladeviper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ngt1HPb8u8&feature=youtu.be

i would like to point out one more time people have been doing this since the demo it seems, it might not change the length of a stock too drastically

 

[LancerStaff]

Seriously, somebody should get started on how much this effects things. Gogogogogogo.

Ugh, maybe it can be patched out, along with the ZSS infinite.

Then why was it put here in the first place? Can't say it's a glitch like Brawl's hitstun canceling, as this has a very specific effect.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

First of all, excellent work Strong Bad. This actually explains a lot of what I saw as my DI was fine (I generally input diagonals that double as proper DI and will instantly begin air control in the direction I want to go) but a lot of other people didn't have the same experience at all. This explains a lot, and the game makes more sense now.

For those who don't understand vectors, let me put it this way. You get launched, and you fly at some speed in some direction. This new technique just lets you "push" your character a bit while being launched. So inputting right while flying straight up won't help you because you're still moving up just as fast but now you're also moving to the right a bit. It's just like driving; if you're going north and a strong wind is blowing from the east, it might push you a bit to the side of your lane but it won't make you arrive at your destination any slower than you would otherwise since you'll just continue to move north at the same speed. If you want to fly less far, you need to push against the direction you're flying (driving with a headwind) whereas, if you want to fly further, push in the direction you are flying (driving with a tailwind). You can only push in the four cardinal directions (up, down, left, right), but you can push in multiple directions at once by hitting a diagonal with you pushing at full power in both directions if you do so (so if you are launched toward a corner, hold toward the other corner to help protect yourself from both the vertical KO and the horizontal KO at the same time). I hope that explanation makes sense.

As per what this means, I think it will actually make the game a bit more accessible since contrary to the thread title this is actually easier to understand if you don't get vectors (I really don't know how any of you guys understood DI if you didn't get vectors...), but otherwise, I don't think it's going to really change a ton. A lot of people already were inputting DI that had this effect and just didn't know it, and of course, a big parallel wtih DI as it pertains to the combo game is that it can be read and punished so if you just always push away when being combod people are going to begin setting traps for you. I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

 

[Strong Badam]

"Hitstun Shuffling" is the correct thing to call it, imo. @ Strong Badam

xD Not bashing you- its just that we've already got an official name, and it would be easier for people to remember it since its in the game already. Think you could change the title to fit this?

Hitstun shuffling describes SDI, not Vectoring.

Something of note is that the optimal way to DI most combo throws in past Smash games is more-or-less the same way one would use this to get out of combos, so it is unlikely that we will see a significant difference in how hard it is to combo people with most setup stuff.

Untrue. In previous games you would DI away to force them to dash before jumping to combo. You now Vector upwards against (vertical) combo throws, like most D/Uthrows.


To those curious, and I've said this multiple times already, I think SDI still exists in the game, it's very clear with Smart Bomb. Mashing a direction goes much further than holding. Vectoring is a separate mechanic.

As per what this means, I think it will actually make the game a bit more accessible since contrary to the thread title this is actually easier to understand if you don't get vectors (I really don't know how any of you guys understood DI if you didn't get vectors...), but otherwise, I don't think it's going to really change a ton. A lot of people already were inputting DI that had this effect and just didn't know it, and of course, a big parallel wtih DI as it pertains to the combo game is that it can be read and punished so if you just always push away when being combod people are going to begin setting traps for you. I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

This mechanic is certainly more intuitive to new players to the series. To those who had played previous titles, it's extremely confusing, and switching between games, for those of us who are good at and plan to play multiple games competitively, is going to be the hardest it's ever been as a result.

 

[Sunnysunny]

This is incredibly helpful and I can't thank you enough for going out of the way to make this write up and help advance the metagame. You saved everybody a lot of work and confusion by figuring this out on your own. <3

 

[buzz-roll]

There is definitely still SDI. Try with Pika dsmash, mash up and you can escape if you're mashing hard enough. It's way lower than Brawl though. I think SDI is separate from Vectoring, and what Vectoring will allow you to do is just, as described in the OP, average your knockback force with a small force in the direction you are holding the stick that is applied when the knockback begins.

But are you sure that getting out of the dsmash isn't just a result of adding a knockback vector to the hit? Instead of teleporting, as SDI was done in the past?

Also, Strong Bad says in the OP that the ideal way to Vector a horizontal kill move is to do it the same way as before, but if the effects of Vectoring are like he described, the ideal way to Vector is Inward + Upward. Inward is to subtract from the KB force, and upward is to augment the angle to send towards the corner of the stage.

Which is largely how it was done before, if you weren't agreeing with that!

 

[hichez50]

The lab is getting its textbook and supplies. Can't wait to lab it up and just play this game.

 

[CURRY]

So...
What....
I'm SO sorry, I still don't understand what you do when you're launched horizontally T-T
So holding down does NOT do anything to your rate of survival.

So would holding up still give you a larger height boost when launched horizontally? It won't increase survivability while in hitstun, but once you start to recover (DJ, up B, etc), assuming that you have a bad recovery, then wouldn't it still help you survive?

So generally, hold up and right when you're launched left?

 

[Whia]

Apologies if this has already been asked (I've only read the first of the 4 pages thus far), but is there a time/frame limit on how quickly you need to "vector" in order for it to be effective? Do I have to input my chosen direction before or exactly as the attack lands, or will vectoring work well after I've already been launched?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It would seem that, unlike the Best Buy demo, you can SDI Smart Bombs but cannot use Vectoring to move between hits. This suggests that SDI (hitstun shuffling, according to Sakurai), which can be done during hitlag) is a separate thing from VI (which happens post-hitlag).

 

[TimeSmash]

I personally like VDI - people are already familiar with the concept of DI and to be honest VDI, both in name and concept, seems like a natural extension of DIing.

This straight up just sounds like venereal disease influence though

 

[Gidy]

I'm upset that this was discovered. This will turn Smash 4 in to Brawl 2.0 because there will be no combos because you can get up of them. I want this to be patched.

 

[buzz-roll]

It would seem that, unlike the Best Buy demo, you can SDI Smart Bombs but cannot use Vectoring to move between hits. This suggests that SDI (hitstun shuffling, according to Sakurai), which can be done during hitlag) is a separate thing from VI (which happens post-hitlag).

thank you! all my vectoring questions resolved for now.

 

[iRJi]

This was really well written. I want to thank you for the professionalism. In testing on my part, I basically came along the same lines for what you posted, but your really made the best explanation I have seen so far. Many Thanks!

 

[Bladeviper]

I'm upset that this was discovered. This will turn Smash 4 in to Brawl 2.0 because there will be no combos because you can get up of them. I want this to be patched.

i think you are over reacting here, there will still be combos jeez

 

[buzz-roll]

I'm upset that this was discovered. This will turn Smash 4 in to Brawl 2.0 because there will be no combos because you can get up of them. I want this to be patched.

Also a gross overreaction, as we don't actually know the extent to which this will affect knockback in general, much less specific combos. I tend to imagine that it'll be worse overall, but we barely know what the baseline for this is to compare "worse" to

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm upset that this was discovered. This will turn Smash 4 in to Brawl 2.0 because there will be no combos because you can get up of them. I want this to be patched.

It was put in with a specific reason, and the game was likely balanced around it. Doubtful it'll change.

 

[Player-1]

@ Player-1 : No we had it right. He has VI for vectorial influence, we have VI for vector influence. Ours is def better and we should get millions instead

Edit: what would VDI stand for? This is different from DI, and would probably add confusion trying to add DI to the name

What do you mean WE? I'm taking all credit for this name. In fact, I'm taking all credit for this thread too, I discovered this. Hail me.

 

[DMG]

Oh yeah? Well my SWF account is older so I'm clearly more correct than you P1!

 

[Renji64]

So less or more combos to keep it short?

 

[Gidy]

i think you are over reacting here, there will still be combos jeez

Combo's as hype as this?

 

[Shadic]

You are both scrubs.


That said, I can think of no way that this mechanic is a good thing. This is going to heavily hurt combos and increase survivability probably more than the old DI system ever did.

 

[Bladeviper]

Combo's as hype as this?

who knows the game has been out for 4 damn days

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm upset that this was discovered. This will turn Smash 4 in to Brawl 2.0 because there will be no combos because you can get up of them. I want this to be patched.

I'm frustrated that it exists, but I realized after thinking for more than 5 seconds that keeping this to myself would have accomplished nothing. People would have discovered this soon even without me.

It was put in with a specific reason, and the game was likely balanced around it. Doubtful it'll change.

The game doesn't seem to be balanced around it, or if it is, they do not want combos to happen or for characters to die until 150%+.

 

[stingers]

i thought SDI was always a separate mechanic from DI? naming conventions aside. at the very least SDI was in smash 64 without any normal DI so they had to at least be coded in differently originally.

I see no reason why any current iteration of SDI would have to be influenced by this vectoring at all. in brawl at least im pretty sure the game didnt read your DI until after hitlag ended anyway?

 

[Halfhead]

Hey, slight possible mathematical error on the op, @ Strong Badam . If vectoring works as you say it does (which I agree with, by the way), you wouldn't see a square area of possibility like you have in your graph, you'd have a circular one. If I held up-right, for example, while I was being hit with a knockback of 100 (assuming a vector % of 20), your graph says I would go 120 up and 20 right. This is not the case. I would go 100+(20sqrt2) up and 20sqrt2 right.

Forgive me if someone else already pointed this out, I only read the OP so far.

 

[Gidy]

SAKURAI DIRECT US TO A BETTER SMASH 4 :'(

 

[Shariq]

Combo's as hype as this?

That is against a CPU. Plus I have tried stuff like that against a level 9 Mario CPU many times and he escapes some of my combos if I start from 0 percent...

 

[hichez50]

Does SDI(Hitstun Shuffling) happen before VI? Or is hitstun shuffling only a mechanic on certain attacks?

Other than that I guess we just need to know exact frames of this stuff.

 

[Gidy]

That is against a CPU. Plus I have tried stuff like that against a level 9 Mario CPU many times and he escapes some of my combos if I start from 0 percent...

There was a lot of room to be creative with combos like even if you we're against a human.

 

[Luigi player]

Very interesting.

I did DI like this until just before Brawls release when I didn't know how to properly do it (but then someone told me he wasn't sure if I even DI and that made me think about it, I later learned it in Brawl), because it made the most sense to me (you don't want to be sent to the right? Press left to reduce it).

 

[Strong Badam]

Hey, slight possible mathematical error on the op, @ Strong Badam . If vectoring works as you say it does (which I agree with, by the way), you wouldn't see a square area of possibility like you have in your graph, you'd have a circular one. If I held up-right, for example, while I was being hit with a knockback of 100 (assuming a vector % of 20), your graph says I would go 120 up and 20 right. This is not the case. I would go 100+(20sqrt2) up and 20sqrt2 right.

It's not circular. As in Brawl, the control pad's input isn't coded particularly well. The "max" inputs are scaled to 1 in the in-game coding, but you're allowed to go further than that. So basically while a "right" input is (1,0), a diagonal input is (1,1) despite the control stick being circular. If the inputs were properly scaled to be circular, it'd be something like (0.707, 0.707) (cosine and sine of 45 degrees respectively). But that's not the case here.
Your trig is off, btw. It'd be (20sqrt2/2) or (10sqrt2).

 

[NewGuy79]

Is it possible that we can get some back roomers i the lab to see how much of an effect this has on the game, I'd probably be able to grasp this whole thing better if I could see examples of it in game.

 

[[TSON]]

But are you sure that getting out of the dsmash isn't just a result of adding a knockback vector to the hit? Instead of teleporting, as SDI was done in the past?

You are doing both by mashing up. Look carefully and you can still see the teleports. SDI is even in the tips section of the game as Hitstun Shuffling.

Which is largely how it was done before, if you weren't agreeing with that!

Mathematically, yes, that would be the ideal way to do it before. However, lots of people would just hold up. DI is capped in Smash games so the inward input would do essentially nothing and the up is the only one that's necessary.


-------

For anyone still confused about the difference between SDI and Vectoring, it's this - Vectoring doesn't visually push you, it simply mathematically adds a force to contradict/support the knockback force. The game is doing "ok, you're holding 5 up and 5 right" "ok, the KB is 5 up and 5 right" "now KB will be 10 up 10 right" before you are sent anywhere, and all you can see is the 10 up 10 right KB.