VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[darkatma]

Yeah, that seems to work for me as well.

During genesis 2, I placed really well in bracket because I had a "eh, nothing to lose" attitude, so I was relaxed, and ended up beating leffen, lucky, and lucien

 

[dkuo]

I tend to phase out who my opponent is when I'm about to play them, as well as the potential outcomes of the set - I just focus on what's at hand when the time comes. It's more conducive to learning the game imo, rather than thinking about the subject of winning vs losing, skill comparison, etc.

Er. First post on the peach boards I guess. Hi guys.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I dunno. I think being realistic is like...good. Understanding exactly where you stand against someone else, and being honest with yourself about that...how is this going to hold you back, again? There's no point in deluding yourself (though the "I can win" mindset is important).

 

[Nintendude]

I find that when going up against a super good player I go in with a nothing to lose attitude and end up doing really well until I win a game. Then when the set is sitting at 1-1 I'm like oh **** I can pull this off and start thinking too much and end up dropping it. So far it's happened to me vs. Jman, Zhu, PP, Cactuar, and more =/

 

[KirbyKaze]

If it makes you feel better I'll **** you 2-0 to save you the confusion.



JK but let's play again srsly tho

 

[(*Jman*)]

I find that when going up against a super good player I go in with a nothing to lose attitude and end up doing really well until I win a game. Then when the set is sitting at 1-1 I'm like oh **** I can pull this off and start thinking too much and end up dropping it. So far it's happened to me vs. Jman, Zhu, PP, Cactuar, and more =/

What u talking about I'm not a good player I suck


But anyway jaden wasssssssup!!

 

[Rosedemon]

A wild Jman appears!

 

[Wake]

Jeez. I just saw Bladewise's set with Mango...

I really want to see how Armada would deal with that Falcon.

http://www.twitch.tv/gameclucks/b/331533178

Here's a link to the stream. Their set starts at about 3:23:00

 

[knightpraetor]

today i beat an A- protoss for the first time in starcraft brood war...

I am C-/C level. That means my opponent literally has 3-4 years of extra experience and is roughly 100x better at the game than me. Gotta believe. Even top players make mistakes. I took a match off PP in tourney when he was at his prime too...even pros are human..they can make mistakes. whether you are favored or not, I think it is beneficial to think that you are going to wreck your opponent. The problem with just saying "oh he's so much better; he's going to win anyway," is that you are then more likely to get distracted when he pulls off ridiculous combos and lose focus. I know that happened to me the first time I played PP in marth dittos in a tourney. I literally took my hand off my controller and thought about the combo i had just been killed with while I lost another fast stock in <8 secs.

But if you think you're going to wreck your opponent..then when they zero to death you you just keep moving and play your best. If you think too highly of your opponent in the match you will end up giving the opponent the win for free. In my opinion, it's ok to think they are better than you outside of the match, but when you're playing you better be thinking of nothing else but how you're going to dominate them and how to crush what they are currently doing even if you are 3 stocks down. Otherwise you are just giving them a free win without any work.

 

[Rosedemon]

This whole argument went way over some peoples heads.

"Man this guy is really good, lemme elevate my play/I have nothing to lose" =/= "Man this guy is really good, **** it i've already lost"

 

[ShroudedOne]

Jeez. I just saw Bladewise's set with Mango...

I really want to see how Armada would deal with that Falcon.

http://www.twitch.tv/gameclucks/b/331533178

Here's a link to the stream. Their set starts at about 3:23:00

I hate watching Mango play this matchup. I wish he'd gone not-Falcon.

 

[AustinRC]

Who is really good at or knows the matchup of Peach vs sheik really well? I'm really struggling here, I'd love some help. Please and thanks.

@ Rosedemon - Yeah maybe I'm not really sure. I think we both voiced our opinions well, or well enough I sometimes don't explain myself or my views very well. : /

 

[ChivalRuse]

You're talking about from Peach's side, right, ARC? I'm not a Peach player, but from Shiek's perspective, it's difficult to deal with mass crouch cancels. (And I mean a peach who crouch cancels everything) Since you can cc shiek's dash attack to about 70% i believe and you can cc a sheik tilt until around 85%, you really cut down sheik's options.

Condition the sheik to shield! Dash attack erratically (like dash dance and dash attack at weird timings, so you can catch the shiek in her movements and jumps) then start dash grabbing when you condition the shiek to shield. Grab is so good. Also djc aerials to grab/dsmash are VERY good. (especially if you've eaten away at her shield a bit already).

Tech chasing with fc is good since you might have trouble setting up a fc otherwise if the sheik gets in your face.

Turnip spam is obviously good.

That's about all I can give you. Probably not too helpful since you know all this but I felt like typing.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You can cc her tilts until 85%??????

That sounds ridiculous. Maybe I've just been doing it terribly.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach vs Sheik?

These are some thoughts. Just basic ideas.

Sheik is a convenient weight & fall speed for combos. So combo her really hard.

Exert pressure when you're in on her. Aside from rolling or shield grabbing jabs it can be hard for Sheik to really juke Peach if you're technical. Try to pressure from the back if you can 'cuz Sheik's shield grab is really gay. Alternatively, space for the shield grab and try to fish it so you can do a good punish (with d-tilt or something) and get a huge return. Whichever. D-smash is okay vs her shield if it's been weakened but never do it vs a fresh one. Aerial > grab should be considered but only if you've maximized frame advantage in your punish because you need to be close and it doesn't outweigh the risk of being grabbed yourself.

Hold her at the edge when you can. Getting by Peach is hard in general. Nair OOS can be good vs panic attacks near the edge and stuff. F-throwing her off and then covering options systematically (or just guessing her option if you're ballsy) is generally good.

Get under her. This is a pretty universally good rule vs Sheik. Peach is less good at this 'cuz her uair is only out for a bit and isn't gigantic. You can u-smash the end of her bair or dash attack it though. Blocking and then nairing OOS is also good vs a lot of her combo break attacks and gives you a free turnip pull or attempt to edgeguard, etc.

Trading panic aerial for CC d-smash can be really worthwhile.

Turnips are good but if she tries to nair through them and hit you out of your fair startup, fade away when you fair and beat her nair. Or just nair instead. Or put a bit more distance between your turnip and fair. Lots of options.

 

[AustinRC]

Thanks kirbykaze/ chivalruse I really appreciate it.

 

[darkatma]

god dajuan is soooo good as sheik vs peach

I tried the matchup today and the last game he nearly 4 stocked me

 

[knightpraetor]

useful tips. though in my case as peach i have a hard time setting up combos without dtilt. I guess I justneed to work on techchasing float upair or something off techchase

 

[KirbyKaze]

You could dair into uair. Underused and often works because of how useless it is to CC or ASDI down on some of her common follow-up aerials (strong nair, fair).

You could also dash attack, up smash, or even uair into it. Uair underneath Sheik can often just work.

 

[Ryobeat]

MacD vs Kirbykaze is a really good set. p i wanna see KK vs Armada!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Downsmash sets up combos well at low percents, since it puts Sheik on the ground and usually in dash attack range. Sometimes Sheiks will panic and techroll right into another dsmash.

Also, regarding dsmashing a fresh shield, KK, I was wondering if you know the frame data of Peach's dsmash vs a shield from close range (but out of shield grab range) and from far range (clipping their shield so fewer hits of the dsmash connect.)

One other random tip vs any decent sheik player is that she will wait for you to try to nair out of her d-throw setups. If you DI away hoping to nair her out of a regrab/f-tilt/dash attack, she can just wait for you to nair and grab your landing lag. Instead of nairing you could also look for opportunities to double jump waveland onto a platform or even wiggle out and airdodge/waveland onto the ground.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't know the frame data but I think you can WD OOS grab it if your shield holds.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sounds about right. On a good day I feel I'm able to judge the shield stun well enough to do so.

 

[Xyzz]

Superdoodlemans page has the following for her down smash:

Total: 39
Hit: 5-6, 9-10, 13-14, 17-18, 21-22
Advantage (last hit): -10

Doesn't really sound like WD oos grab is legit.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

With fox i stood next to as close to peach as possible and shield. Peach dsmash hit 3x with the last 2 hits missing (pushing fox too far). Final advantage: -22. WD with fox and sheik is 14 frames, grab is 7 which is total of 21.

Be careful, though. With fox, at least, if you wavedash frame perfectly you will be caught by the last frame of the dsmash. Delaying the wavedash by 1 frame solves that without disallowing the grab followup.

 

[AustinRC]

So I played my buddy who is a Jigglypuff main with peach and he missed some rests and I wasnt able to punish very well. I went into training mode today and tested somethings out and was wondering if you guys would go out and try this please. This is a combo off of a turnip and I've had the opponent DI in one of two major directions, I think it's actually legit but I don't have time to test it vs someone today so I'm asking you guys to try it out. I know this isn't TOO important but it could potentially kill at around 65% on some stages.

Run down:

Basically you would run towards one side of the puff or person who had broken their shield roughly about half a dash attack length from them pull a turnip and throw it up "hard throw". Float into them and onto the other side so that they are inbetween you and the turnip and fair them. You have to make sure that they collide with the side of the turnip that is facing you and not the bottom or other side, otherwise they will fly in the same direction and you wont be able to follow up. The stun is long enough so that you can do one of two things depending on how they DI. If they DI up you can full hop and uair them and if they DI away or down you can full jump fair them. I tested it as best I could and it was working but this was against different computer DI's so idk how legit that is. It's not too hard once you practice it either. Let me know what you think or if I'm just a big fat scrub.

-Arc

 

[ChivalRuse]

The best way to punish rest is to f-smash and hope the pan comes out. Then you fry up the marshmallow.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you rifle between your f-smashes between stocks or at available opportunities, you can disallow the racket. At a certain spacing you can sweetspot the club while still hitting with the pan. This is okay for like 23-24% punish with acceptable KB.

 

[ChivalRuse]

How much % does roasting the foul pink critter alive yield?

 

[KirbyKaze]

23% pan
24% club

 

[ChivalRuse]

Does the club have to be sweet spotted for that damage?

 

[darkatma]

I see what Arc is saying.

You can have a turnip on the other side and potentially knock jiggs into the turnip, then follow up with a 2nd attack. This works assuming jiggs cannot cc your move. I want to test out a turnip directly above jiggs, then doing upair -> turnip hit -> upair as a punish.

 

[Xyzz]

Sweetspot club does 23, non-sweetspot does 17.
turnip > sweetspot usmash is more damage, so go for it if available (also kills earlier).

also ShroudedOne mentioned dtilt > reverse bair > dtilt (at least kind of) working at zero, that sounds pretty nice as well


Oh and Jiggs can't CC when being in the sleeping state, can it?

 

[AustinRC]

If the combo I'm talking about can't be crouch canceled it kills jigs at 65% on FD and does roughly 33% total.

 

[Xyzz]

Iirc Usmash sweetspot is in that ballpark as well (:

Well, finding out whether jiggs can CC or not, shouldn't be that hard anyways :D

 

[ShroudedOne]

Reverse bair > reverse bair > forward smash works on bad Puffs/Puff secondaries, I found out (which means it doesn't really work at all). It's kinda funny.

 

[Wake]

Lol That sounds hilarious.

 

[DoH]

I'm having a hard problem with consistency.

Summon Cactuar as character witness.

Sometimes I'm so on point and deadly I feel like Armada 2.0

Other times I feel like I'm some basic Peach from the heartland.

Helps

 

[KirbyKaze]

Whenever I watch you play I always feel like you're trying to force cool things to work when easier options are right there, just as effective, etc.

I also think you try to make tricks work too much when more reliable options are there.

One of the best examples is in you vs Redd (second set) he kept punishing your turnip stuff with FJ nair. I've seen you vs some Foxes and your turnip traps are sometimes really effective so I understand why you went for them so much (as a side note, I didn't watch the first set so it's possible you made it work there). That said, it felt like he adjusted and you just really wanted to force your stuff to work and it cost you a lot of damage and probably 1 or 2 matches. He just kept doing stuff that countered turnips and... you kept going for turnips.

Just one example off the top of my head; I could probably find more if you want but I think that you'd improve your consistency a lot if you could work on changing between strategies more fluidly.

I also think you could edgeguard with easier stuff. A lot of times you fair instead of nairing and that slight mistiming costs you a kill. It's hard to fair Foxes in free-falls and such because of all he can do to alter his position & fall speed - which all winds up affecting a tight timing. By just nairing or bairing and then following up appropriately, you save all this hassle. Easier timings with similar returns provide better consistency than going for tight things. It's one of the things that separate flashy Foxes from good Foxes.

My $0.02

 

[Xyzz]

KK makes so many great posts <3

I'd just go for fair sometimes if Fox really can't avoid it and is at low percents so the increased knockback is put to good use (at rather low percents he gets too many options for my tastes at times).