darkatma
Smash Hero
Yessss thank you!Lol I was watching a match from Genesis 2, and I suddenly remembered this post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4pgI3ACAek#t=03m10s
Could this be the match you were talking about?
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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)
- Thread starter Cia
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Get Low
Smash Ace
This is kind of random, but does anyone else think Peach's Fsmash is really good against Puff?
Since Puff is usually floating around near Peach's upper body, and her Fsmash kind of creates a barrier around her with decent range, I find it very useful.
Since Puff is usually floating around near Peach's upper body, and her Fsmash kind of creates a barrier around her with decent range, I find it very useful.
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DoH has been saying this for years, that her fsmash is good against Puff. It's decent enough (there's a bit of pullback that sucks in Peach's hurtbox a bit, so she can kind of avoid moves this way), though it's kinda slow.
I've been watching Hbox videos vs various Peaches (Hbox plays this matchup like he hates Peach with a passion ), and I'm starting to lose my confidence in this matchup not being that bad....but turnip throws OoS are VERY good.
I've been watching Hbox videos vs various Peaches (Hbox plays this matchup like he hates Peach with a passion
), and I'm starting to lose my confidence in this matchup not being that bad....but turnip throws OoS are VERY good.
Get Low
Smash Ace
All I do against Puff is run away and throw turnips (Oos most of the time) the entire time using the threat of timeout to my advantage, and I don't think I've even lost one game against her in tournament since I started playing this game. It makes me so mad watching Youtube videos of Peach players playing against Puff, because they all try to either approach the whole time, or they'll camp for thirty seconds, get tired of camping, and start approaching and getting ***** for it. I don't understand what people's issue is with running away the entire match is. It's extremely effective against Jigglypuff, and not just with Y. Link.
darkatma
Smash Hero
that's how I'm gonna beat hbox at TBH2
I'll put a pink shinobi tag on to remind myself every second. Whenever I want to approach, I'll just look at the tag and think "paul wouldn't have wanted that" and keep running away intelligently.
I'll put a pink shinobi tag on to remind myself every second. Whenever I want to approach, I'll just look at the tag and think "paul wouldn't have wanted that" and keep running away intelligently.
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I don't think Peach really has the ability to run away from Puff that effectively, especially not with KJ64 and RC no longer legal. And what happens if you get rested and Puff is on a fresh stock? GG, imo, if she really wants to camp you back.
That being said, we shouldn't really "approach" her, but playing run away as Peach...vs Puff..meh.
But maybe she can do it. Prove me wrong, someone.
That being said, we shouldn't really "approach" her, but playing run away as Peach...vs Puff..meh.
But maybe she can do it. Prove me wrong, someone.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Haha, I just pick green peach if I have to remind me not to play reckless.
Nature (where one would go camping) and turnips are green! :D
darkatma
Smash Hero
how are you gonna get rested if you're running away the whole time?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
@ Atma
I think attrition strategies with a character that has killing issues vs a character who has an OHKO everywhere after 12% is really dumb. Losing one exchange badly can be too costly - Peach sucks at coming back from a deficit vs campy Puffs. Unless you get magic items a lot I don't think Paul's style is a good idea vs HBox but I can't count on that nor can I predict it.
From a camping Peach perspective, I also think the stagelist nerfs that strat 'cuz FD, YS, FoD, and arguably PS ('cuz PS promotes DD camp but that's not how Peach stalls people out) are not good levels for this kind of thing IMHO. Too easy to get cornered and nowhere to go vertically to try and stall her jumps & attacks out (or even just get breathing room). There's no KJ64, Pokefloats, etc. anymore to provide cover with their obstacles or comically elevated platforms.
Uhh, if you're serious about using Peach then my thoughts are that I think Peach has to draw Puff in but that's just because she doesn't have the speed to catch her character-to-character and Puff can play outside the turnip arcs without sacrificing much. You can't really challenge her directly that well but she doesn't want you to procure a magic item either so there's this weird dynamic of Puff sort of... max-ranging her moves on you and trying to keep you from plucking things but she's also not approaching. You need really good OOS movement to beat this. Once you have a veggie turnip throws OOS can nick her for that bair crap so the game changes a lot. It's neat.
F-smash is okay. It's better than I initially thought but mostly for where it hits and not so much for cutting through Puff bairs with super specific evade-punish spacing via leanback. It's just high priority arc that hits to your side with low lag. Puffs that try to fade in and out can often be caught by it (especially if they sex kick a lot). I endorse turning the racket off whenever possible in this one but then that cuts into turnip time so idk.
You could also go Sheik (read and internalize my Sheik vs Puff guide if you go this route). Sheik is better vs Puff IMO but Peach can do it. Whoever's playing better the day of will probably serve you better.
As a side note, Sheik is better than Peach at Paul's strategy vs fraudulent, slow, floaty characters (on high platform levels like DL64 and BF, anyway) 'cuz she has the speed to outposition Puff in various ways, a solid WD OOS to reposition after an aerial nicks her shield on a platform, an angled projectile that combos into a solid hit sometimes (very useful!), a quality ledgestall (very good for burning those last 30 seconds - just ask Amsah), and 2-step KO combos at X%. She's also generally better at fighting without an elaborate spacing or positional setup whereas Peach generally needs to get the right float height or get her shield position perfect and it's all very dainty spacing 'cuz fair is slow, her movement is by and large slow, and her faster aerials hit awkward areas. Sheik's moves are significantly dumber, faster, bigger, more fraudulent, etc. and Sheik herself is faster and has really good maneuverability around the plats and at the edge. So she doesn't need much work to have decent footing, which is important vs Puff.
But yeah do whatever. Good luck. I'll be rooting for you!
I think attrition strategies with a character that has killing issues vs a character who has an OHKO everywhere after 12% is really dumb. Losing one exchange badly can be too costly - Peach sucks at coming back from a deficit vs campy Puffs. Unless you get magic items a lot I don't think Paul's style is a good idea vs HBox but I can't count on that nor can I predict it.
From a camping Peach perspective, I also think the stagelist nerfs that strat 'cuz FD, YS, FoD, and arguably PS ('cuz PS promotes DD camp but that's not how Peach stalls people out) are not good levels for this kind of thing IMHO. Too easy to get cornered and nowhere to go vertically to try and stall her jumps & attacks out (or even just get breathing room). There's no KJ64, Pokefloats, etc. anymore to provide cover with their obstacles or comically elevated platforms.
Uhh, if you're serious about using Peach then my thoughts are that I think Peach has to draw Puff in but that's just because she doesn't have the speed to catch her character-to-character and Puff can play outside the turnip arcs without sacrificing much. You can't really challenge her directly that well but she doesn't want you to procure a magic item either so there's this weird dynamic of Puff sort of... max-ranging her moves on you and trying to keep you from plucking things but she's also not approaching. You need really good OOS movement to beat this. Once you have a veggie turnip throws OOS can nick her for that bair crap so the game changes a lot. It's neat.
F-smash is okay. It's better than I initially thought but mostly for where it hits and not so much for cutting through Puff bairs with super specific evade-punish spacing via leanback. It's just high priority arc that hits to your side with low lag. Puffs that try to fade in and out can often be caught by it (especially if they sex kick a lot). I endorse turning the racket off whenever possible in this one but then that cuts into turnip time so idk.
You could also go Sheik (read and internalize my Sheik vs Puff guide if you go this route). Sheik is better vs Puff IMO but Peach can do it. Whoever's playing better the day of will probably serve you better.
As a side note, Sheik is better than Peach at Paul's strategy vs fraudulent, slow, floaty characters (on high platform levels like DL64 and BF, anyway) 'cuz she has the speed to outposition Puff in various ways, a solid WD OOS to reposition after an aerial nicks her shield on a platform, an angled projectile that combos into a solid hit sometimes (very useful!), a quality ledgestall (very good for burning those last 30 seconds - just ask Amsah), and 2-step KO combos at X%. She's also generally better at fighting without an elaborate spacing or positional setup whereas Peach generally needs to get the right float height or get her shield position perfect and it's all very dainty spacing 'cuz fair is slow, her movement is by and large slow, and her faster aerials hit awkward areas. Sheik's moves are significantly dumber, faster, bigger, more fraudulent, etc. and Sheik herself is faster and has really good maneuverability around the plats and at the edge. So she doesn't need much work to have decent footing, which is important vs Puff.
But yeah do whatever. Good luck. I'll be rooting for you!
darkatma
Smash Hero
I considered sheik but I don't feel like I have the time to master the matchup before the tournament. Also, puff doesn't have any guaranteed rest combos on peach except in the window of 12%-30%, where anything after would send too high to combo into rest.
I definitely think the stagelist is a legitimate challenge to the strat but that it's still possible. I also think that peaches just play the matchup wrong, and overall have too little patience for it.
Don't know, I'll definitely look through the sheik puff MU guide again, and I already do know how useful dtilt and walking grabs are for safety. I do think the MU is possible with peach and that Armada just didn't want to spend the time figuring it out. It's difficult to theorycraft vs puff when there are no good puffs around.
One thing that I think will be the key to the puff matchup is peach's DJC. I think the ability to switch her momentum instantaneously in the air would be a great baiting asset vs puff. It would also make her harder to catch in the air when I'm trying to camp or draw out attacks.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think if Peach had a move that could head-on challenge spaced Puff bair (like Ness's fair) the DJC swings would be stronger but it's essentially just another way of doing the old diagonal approach strat for the MU (float > bair diagonally). This just trades your jump for some more speed & a slight change in reach. I think it's okay on small levels but FD, BF, DL, and PS... Puff has too much air space to avoid that kind of thing. And starting it super high to overcompensate their retreat zone has its own set off issues and is mad punishable. It's also easy for Puff to just align herself with you and Peach... can't really put on more height once she's peaked 'cuz of her wacky DJ so you're forced to back off (or challenge an aligned Puff to horizontal priority, which is a bad idea).
With all that said, there are more reasons why I don't really like the diagonal approach strat. At the end of the day it has the same issue overshooting into a DD has. When I tested with Idea I found that if they just move back slightly more or just do an extra jump it can fail and put you in a really rough spot. You're getting MAYBE a 2-step for hitting this bair? It's not worth the risk.
If you're looking to beat Puff by angles I think that just working on the ground (where you are more maneuverable) and popping around with SH and FJ nairs and bairs is a more effective version of it because you save your float and jump and it has roughly the same counters (by Puff). If you can encourage her to fall on you, float nairing and aiming for her elevated hand is also really good. You can sometimes low float fair stuff too the same way. Peach rises about as fast with FJ as she descends with DJC FF aerial AFAIK so you're not sacrificing much speed and you have more control over your drift, which can help mitigate damage or avoid counterattacks (DJC kind of sets where you're going when you do it). It also lets you play ground more, which is generally good vs Puff with almost any character IMO since Puff is kind of meh at getting through shields and such. Adjusting your positioning is also easier on the ground - you're kind of limited when you float or play platforms with Peach.
And, yeah, Puff only has a few ways to legitimately rest Peach in a combo. But you can get rests by more than just combos and HBox is also the master of materializing BS rests (he's made jab > rest work so many times >_> even on good people). It just seems dangerous. I'm just thinking... "Why try to cheese the cheese king?" Just outplay him. He has a lot of random losses in tournament anyway AFAIK. Maybe you can add one more.
With all that said, there are more reasons why I don't really like the diagonal approach strat. At the end of the day it has the same issue overshooting into a DD has. When I tested with Idea I found that if they just move back slightly more or just do an extra jump it can fail and put you in a really rough spot. You're getting MAYBE a 2-step for hitting this bair? It's not worth the risk.
If you're looking to beat Puff by angles I think that just working on the ground (where you are more maneuverable) and popping around with SH and FJ nairs and bairs is a more effective version of it because you save your float and jump and it has roughly the same counters (by Puff). If you can encourage her to fall on you, float nairing and aiming for her elevated hand is also really good. You can sometimes low float fair stuff too the same way. Peach rises about as fast with FJ as she descends with DJC FF aerial AFAIK so you're not sacrificing much speed and you have more control over your drift, which can help mitigate damage or avoid counterattacks (DJC kind of sets where you're going when you do it). It also lets you play ground more, which is generally good vs Puff with almost any character IMO since Puff is kind of meh at getting through shields and such. Adjusting your positioning is also easier on the ground - you're kind of limited when you float or play platforms with Peach.
And, yeah, Puff only has a few ways to legitimately rest Peach in a combo. But you can get rests by more than just combos and HBox is also the master of materializing BS rests (he's made jab > rest work so many times >_> even on good people). It just seems dangerous. I'm just thinking... "Why try to cheese the cheese king?" Just outplay him. He has a lot of random losses in tournament anyway AFAIK. Maybe you can add one more.
Get Low
Smash Ace
Like to whom?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Lovage, me, Lucky, Fly, ChuDat
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Xelic!
Also KK you owe me a teaming at some point. Preferably when you get better at teams
Also KK you owe me a teaming at some point. Preferably when you get better at teams
Get Low
Smash Ace
Ah, I was hoping you were going to give me a list of people who weren't already top players.
Wake
Smash Master
Well the thing is, it's generally considered that Hbox is better than them, and when you look at the other top 3 players, they don't seem to lose to players of that caliber. I feel like KK is better than the people he listed with him, though. Iunno.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I'm top level now? Darn. Standards be slipping.
darkatma
Smash Hero
yeah watch KK in his recent canadian matches. that aint top player quality at all 
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Xelic has beaten Hbox? Is that on Youtube somewhere?
Sadly, it is not.
Sadly, it is not.
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
No this was at FAST. And also like 4 years ago lol
It was also the same tournament where hbox timed me out on game 3 on my awesome counterpick of corneria
It was also the same tournament where hbox timed me out on game 3 on my awesome counterpick of corneria
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Name anybody outside of the obvious top5 who you would call better than you?
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Anyone want to talk about stages vs Puff? Aside from Yoshi's (a clear choice vs Puff imo), I'm not entirely sure where to go vs her. I personally don't like FoD, but I can see how some Peaches would. Dreamland always seemed iffy to me vs Puff, because rest will still kill us rather early, and then you're a stock behind Puff on Dreamland...
FD seems good, and I know nothing about Battlefield vs her. Or Stadium.
FD seems good, and I know nothing about Battlefield vs her. Or Stadium.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
I also think Yoshis is the best stage... Puff dies really early here. We kinda do so as well, but the whole deal is more beneficial to us imho, because shorter stocks = less rest opportunities and she edge guards us better than we do her, so the added survivability tends to benefit her more than us.
Also the YS platforms are so low even Peach with her slow jump can work very well with them, which I feel is pretty imprtant vs Jiggs.
I really like FD against her, too. While the stage is rather big, the lack of platforms for intermediate landings makes it far easier to pin her down and / or throw turnips at her. Also means Turnip -> charged tipper Up smash is available for every single missed rest.
DL is probably the worst stage against her, since it's pretty much the polar opposite of YS. If you are basically forced to go to the "legit" kill percent on your opponent (can't imagine a single gimp Peach could do to Jiggs), and he can get freebies with rests, the stocks should be as short as possible, etcpp
I don't really have an opinion regarding the remaining three stages, but if I were to guess, I'd say PS is a bit better than the other two, because of earlier up air kills and we might get some really early KOs on some transformations if we get lucky (though i suppose that can just as well happen to us). Also: no top platform <3 :D
I'd be pretty curious about the reasons why people would like FoD more than YS / FD against Puff btw
Also the YS platforms are so low even Peach with her slow jump can work very well with them, which I feel is pretty imprtant vs Jiggs.
I really like FD against her, too. While the stage is rather big, the lack of platforms for intermediate landings makes it far easier to pin her down and / or throw turnips at her. Also means Turnip -> charged tipper Up smash is available for every single missed rest.
DL is probably the worst stage against her, since it's pretty much the polar opposite of YS. If you are basically forced to go to the "legit" kill percent on your opponent (can't imagine a single gimp Peach could do to Jiggs), and he can get freebies with rests, the stocks should be as short as possible, etcpp
I don't really have an opinion regarding the remaining three stages, but if I were to guess, I'd say PS is a bit better than the other two, because of earlier up air kills and we might get some really early KOs on some transformations if we get lucky (though i suppose that can just as well happen to us). Also: no top platform <3 :D
I'd be pretty curious about the reasons why people would like FoD more than YS / FD against Puff btw
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Yoshi's FD for me. DL is ok. Battlefield is bad
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
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I would say, from best to worst, uggh can't think it through. I just like FD and FoD the most. I like space most of the time as you get far far less from boxing jiggs out at the ledge than she gets on you for the same thing unless it sets up for a kill. I could see getting a kill like that on yoshi's but i feel like players with exp would DI too well for it to be worth it. Especially when jiggs edgeguards peach so easily.
fountain of dreams allows you to dsmash through the platforms after aerials making it harder for her to space around but then you can get put on those platforms for a rest setup kind of easy
edit: warning my exp in this matchup only amounts to a couple hours vs mahone. I just thought I would give some of my reasons. Reactive dsmash on FoD's platforms isn't that high risk as you can set up angles where jiggs can't really rest you for it but you can still get comboed.
fountain of dreams allows you to dsmash through the platforms after aerials making it harder for her to space around but then you can get put on those platforms for a rest setup kind of easy
edit: warning my exp in this matchup only amounts to a couple hours vs mahone. I just thought I would give some of my reasons. Reactive dsmash on FoD's platforms isn't that high risk as you can set up angles where jiggs can't really rest you for it but you can still get comboed.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
While we are at it: stages against top tiers in general?
Fox: I like FD (CG, no platforms for him to camp us) / BF (small stage = he can't run very well) best. DL can be nice if he doesn't want to camp. FoD is kinda good for high ceiling, and and I just like the stage a lot. YS is super dangerous, but I actually find it's pretty ok, since it's really small as well. PS is dumb.
Falco: DL / FD are great for obvious reasons. I don't really like BF / YS against him, but they are somewhat ok. FoD is ok as well (although dair > platform drop > dair > shine on low plats is rather good for him). PS is dumb.
Jiggs: yeah well see above
Sheik: I don't really care here, DL is best probably.
Marth: I think DL / FD are great, FoD is pretty nice, BF / PS are okay, YS is rather good for him.
CF: FoD is my fav, because it's sooo good for messing with his aerials. FD is kinda good for the CG, but he has really nice combos on us as well and the stage is kinda huuuge, which gives him a lot of room to do those and has no platforms to DI on in order to sometimes escape downthrow -> bull****. BF / PS / DL are all pretty ok. I don't like Yoshis because dying to knee at 60 is just dumb :D
Fox: I like FD (CG, no platforms for him to camp us) / BF (small stage = he can't run very well) best. DL can be nice if he doesn't want to camp. FoD is kinda good for high ceiling, and and I just like the stage a lot. YS is super dangerous, but I actually find it's pretty ok, since it's really small as well. PS is dumb.
Falco: DL / FD are great for obvious reasons. I don't really like BF / YS against him, but they are somewhat ok. FoD is ok as well (although dair > platform drop > dair > shine on low plats is rather good for him). PS is dumb.
Jiggs: yeah well see above
Sheik: I don't really care here, DL is best probably.
Marth: I think DL / FD are great, FoD is pretty nice, BF / PS are okay, YS is rather good for him.
CF: FoD is my fav, because it's sooo good for messing with his aerials. FD is kinda good for the CG, but he has really nice combos on us as well and the stage is kinda huuuge, which gives him a lot of room to do those and has no platforms to DI on in order to sometimes escape downthrow -> bull****. BF / PS / DL are all pretty ok. I don't like Yoshis because dying to knee at 60 is just dumb :D
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
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I like that stage list a lot. I would probably pick similar though I think FoD is better vs marth than FD. This is from marth's perspective, but a lot of the tools one uses vs peach will not work when the platforms are low...Peach can just float at whatever height though..definitely seems like a bigger advantage than FD.
Get Low
Smash Ace
I like longer stages against Puff such as FD and Stadium, because I tend to just run away a lot against her, and whenever they catch up, I find a way to get back to the other side of the stage and continue camping.
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I think Yoshi's is fine vs Falco, though that depends on the Peach style as well. You can pin him/kill him fast there, but he kills you fast too, and Yoshi's is his stage. I dislike Dreamland vs him, cause he has all that room to not commit, but we live forever (mitigated somewhat by dair KOs, but it's still there). FoD is stupid vs Falco and I hate it (though I guess if you like it, go for it).
I like FD vs Sheik, personally, but it's kinda bad for Peach. No platforms to sometimes escape dthrow > stuff, and the open room makes her combos kind of brutal. Although, we rob Sheik of her platform game, and our combos are fairly good on her as a result of no platforms. I think the open space inevitably works against us, though. FoD is probably good, but I hate it, and I like Yoshi's (for campy Sheiks).
FD should be bad vs Marth, for us, but I like it. I don't really have a reason as to why though. His juggles on us are brutal (more so than ours, imo)...but yeah, I dunno. I think Marth/Peach is about preference, as long as you don't go to Stadium, and take Dreamland whenever you can (I think Yoshi's is fine in just about every MU for us except for Falcon and Pika).
And while I dislike FoD vs Marth, what KP said is pretty spot on, imo.
I like FD vs Sheik, personally, but it's kinda bad for Peach. No platforms to sometimes escape dthrow > stuff, and the open room makes her combos kind of brutal. Although, we rob Sheik of her platform game, and our combos are fairly good on her as a result of no platforms. I think the open space inevitably works against us, though. FoD is probably good, but I hate it, and I like Yoshi's (for campy Sheiks).
FD should be bad vs Marth, for us, but I like it. I don't really have a reason as to why though. His juggles on us are brutal (more so than ours, imo)...but yeah, I dunno. I think Marth/Peach is about preference, as long as you don't go to Stadium, and take Dreamland whenever you can (I think Yoshi's is fine in just about every MU for us except for Falcon and Pika).
And while I dislike FoD vs Marth, what KP said is pretty spot on, imo.
Wake
Smash Master
I hate FD against Puff... and everyone else.
Also, there's something dumb about Falco on FoD, but I don't really know what. I wouldn't pick that stage against him.
Also, there's something dumb about Falco on FoD, but I don't really know what. I wouldn't pick that stage against him.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Marth: I think I'll enjoy FoD far more against Marth if I ever get good with shield dropping... For now, I usually just jump away if somebody pressures my shield from below when I'm on a side platform, and work from there. With Marth on FoD I feel he's pretty good at catching that sort of behavior on the low plats.
I really dislike the side platforms against Marth in general, so I prefer DL where he at least can't reach them with fsmash most of the time and has a much harder time covering them in general... or FD where there is no platforms at all :D (also it's harder for him to avoid turnips here and the stage is big enough to allow Peach plenty of plucking opportunities)
Well, like I said, I do think FoD is pretty nice as well, and is probably a good choice depending on ones playstyle
Falco: I don't think Falco is that good at not-commiting, he just isn't fast enough imho and his general playstyle rarely benefits from camping. Falco should just get in there and abuse his good offense most of the time. Sure, he has to do safe approaches (especially against Peach), but feinting stuff too much just asks for getting called out on it and getting ***** for it.
Well ... "boxing in Falco at the edge of the stage" is probably one of the better aspects of my play, so I'm probably biased towards DL here too :D
I really dislike the side platforms against Marth in general, so I prefer DL where he at least can't reach them with fsmash most of the time and has a much harder time covering them in general... or FD where there is no platforms at all :D (also it's harder for him to avoid turnips here and the stage is big enough to allow Peach plenty of plucking opportunities)
Well, like I said, I do think FoD is pretty nice as well, and is probably a good choice depending on ones playstyle
Falco: I don't think Falco is that good at not-commiting, he just isn't fast enough imho and his general playstyle rarely benefits from camping. Falco should just get in there and abuse his good offense most of the time. Sure, he has to do safe approaches (especially against Peach), but feinting stuff too much just asks for getting called out on it and getting ***** for it.
Well ... "boxing in Falco at the edge of the stage" is probably one of the better aspects of my play, so I'm probably biased towards DL here too :D
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
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"
Falco: I don't think Falco is that good at not-commiting,"
i feel like this statement is heavily dependent on what matchup you are talking about. Vs a good peach, he probably can't get away with not committing. However, even that statement is rather vague because there are many degrees of commitment. starting a dash forward is a commitment as you can't dash back in zero time. But realistically spaced right dashes aren't that heavy of a commitment.
the commitment also varies based on the speed and spacing of the opponent.
And boxing out falco is amazing.
Also i really suck at peach so I really should get some tips I guess. vs falco has progressed nicely, and i finally started edgeguarding marth better when i realized i could trade. But I'm having a good bit of trouble dealing with sheik's tilts..i feel like it just ***** my float fairs (and the nairs even worse).
If I anticipate an ftilt I can just space it out, but it feels like if i was actually aiming for the sheik the tilt just wins straight up. In sheik's position i would probably tilt a lot on floating peach and if the peach starts hovering out of range approach with a fair before they can react..
ftilt just seems really really good. it was a lot easier when the sheiks I was playing only used aerials.
Also, I got comboed as badly as peach as I did with marth today...My only consolation was knowing that I lived through it where marth wouldn't. But even so, it's really hard to come back if you eat one of those huge strings. I keep wanting to play with reverse bair for combos with sheik but it seems that upair often sends them too high to setup for that.
So I'm often unsure whether i should go for an upair starter or a reverse bair starter on sheik.
Meh my questions are pretty bad. Shows that I just need to play more
edit: thinking about it some more maybe my issue is that i like approaching the sheik when she just stands there but i could be more patient and just wait for movement from her. even if she's walking forward and then ftilting, I could aim in front of her or farther back to kind of make it ambiguous how far horizontally I plan to come in.
that requires patience though. I just want to hit them.
Falco: I don't think Falco is that good at not-commiting,"
i feel like this statement is heavily dependent on what matchup you are talking about. Vs a good peach, he probably can't get away with not committing. However, even that statement is rather vague because there are many degrees of commitment. starting a dash forward is a commitment as you can't dash back in zero time. But realistically spaced right dashes aren't that heavy of a commitment.
the commitment also varies based on the speed and spacing of the opponent.
And boxing out falco is amazing.
Also i really suck at peach so I really should get some tips I guess. vs falco has progressed nicely, and i finally started edgeguarding marth better when i realized i could trade. But I'm having a good bit of trouble dealing with sheik's tilts..i feel like it just ***** my float fairs (and the nairs even worse).
If I anticipate an ftilt I can just space it out, but it feels like if i was actually aiming for the sheik the tilt just wins straight up. In sheik's position i would probably tilt a lot on floating peach and if the peach starts hovering out of range approach with a fair before they can react..
ftilt just seems really really good. it was a lot easier when the sheiks I was playing only used aerials.
Also, I got comboed as badly as peach as I did with marth today...My only consolation was knowing that I lived through it where marth wouldn't. But even so, it's really hard to come back if you eat one of those huge strings. I keep wanting to play with reverse bair for combos with sheik but it seems that upair often sends them too high to setup for that.
So I'm often unsure whether i should go for an upair starter or a reverse bair starter on sheik.
Meh my questions are pretty bad. Shows that I just need to play more
edit: thinking about it some more maybe my issue is that i like approaching the sheik when she just stands there but i could be more patient and just wait for movement from her. even if she's walking forward and then ftilting, I could aim in front of her or farther back to kind of make it ambiguous how far horizontally I plan to come in.
that requires patience though. I just want to hit them.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Yeah, you're right "falco has to commit" is pretty vague. I want to say that Falco should really try to hit his opponent more often than not, instead of more or less waiting for the opponent to do something dumb (like Samus / Sheik do).
Peach fair: it is essential that you space and time it right. Correct fairs will beat (or at least trade with) just about everything that isn't completely ridiculous (Marth stuff :D). I think it's far easier to get these down if you have a look at the hitboxes (e.g. here http://gif-explode.com/http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1791/forwardair.gif ).
Sheik: Sheik ftilt is pretty good, but I think it's possible to at least guarantee the trade (the last frame of fair is sooooo good :D), which would work out in your favor obviously (more percent, plus we should live to higher percents, also better stage position for us afterwards).
If you're not confident about a given situation (can't start the fair soon enough / whatever), remember that you don't have to approach, you can just use the fair to cover your landing... but yeah, I just want to hit people as well. Then again, you don't have to do much... just don't be one hundred percent obvious what you're gonna do. Waiting only half a second makes it already so much harder for your opponent to read what you're gonna do.
If upair sends them to high, it's usually time to just go for a nair and push them offstage
Peach fair: it is essential that you space and time it right. Correct fairs will beat (or at least trade with) just about everything that isn't completely ridiculous (Marth stuff :D). I think it's far easier to get these down if you have a look at the hitboxes (e.g. here http://gif-explode.com/http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1791/forwardair.gif ).
Sheik: Sheik ftilt is pretty good, but I think it's possible to at least guarantee the trade (the last frame of fair is sooooo good :D), which would work out in your favor obviously (more percent, plus we should live to higher percents, also better stage position for us afterwards).
If you're not confident about a given situation (can't start the fair soon enough / whatever), remember that you don't have to approach, you can just use the fair to cover your landing... but yeah, I just want to hit people as well. Then again, you don't have to do much... just don't be one hundred percent obvious what you're gonna do. Waiting only half a second makes it already so much harder for your opponent to read what you're gonna do.
If upair sends them to high, it's usually time to just go for a nair and push them offstage
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I like FD vs everyone with almost every character. One day you'll see the light
Falco has more angles to attack with dair, has dumb u-tilt stuff, and generally plays the platforms better than Peach on FoD. FoD has just some convenient things for Peach (small size, big kill zones, sometimes it acts like mini-FD, access to wall-bomber recovery, etc.) that make it a solid choice overall despite what Falco gets.
I suppose that's an argument but they also consistently place better than me so...Name anybody outside of the obvious top5 who you would call better than you?
I generally figure I'm an A tier single player whereas they're all S tier singles players. Since, y'know, there's clearly a gap that's still present (although I'm working on it [side note: I think I've said this a hundred times in the past year lol]).
Let's see how I do at The Big House.
Wake
Smash Master
The day that I learn how to use that abysmal stage... Maybe one day KK lol.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
thanks a lot for mentioning the hitbox..i think the still frames helped me see it better...the diagonal range on peach's fair is huge. at some point i need to memorize the range better.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Haha, it's just nomenclature then. I also think top5 are still a bit above everybody else. Although I think the gap between you and M2k isn't that huge anymore, especially after something in a match didn't go his way. (:
Good luck at The Big House!
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Yeah, Falco is generally better offensive...I dunno. I guess I just don't like Dreamland against him, even though I should. Whenever I play it there, it feels like I'm running after him more than usual.
The urge to hit people is strong. Patience is hard to learn.
The urge to hit people is strong. Patience is hard to learn.