VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Silly Kyle]

Thanks!! Any advice would be appreciated. He is soooooo good, it's unbelievable.

I can't wait until the loser's semifinal set is uploaded between AXE and I.

 

[Composeur]

Kyle, your Peach really is showing a lot of improvement. I'm surprised and impressed by how far you've come. Keep putting in work and you might continue to surprise

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kyle's gettin' silly with those Yoshis.

 

[shounenkel]

what do you guys think about Peach an puff? i think its a good combo i guess... I've been playing around with Puff and she/he is pretty **** an when I'm ready to play peach its nothing, its like puff was peach in the after life lol

 

[Jartravious]

In Quetzalcoatl's turnip guide (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=79319) it says that Double Jump Cancel Landing is

Double Jump Land Z dropping, aka Q drop (named after me lol =P):
It sounds hard, it is hard. Useful? It is if one could do it consistently. What is it then?.. first what is DJL:

Double Jump Landing is when Peach double jumps so fast that the second part of her jump, which has a dip in it, causes her to land on the ground again. This means that peach can use it to:
- Change directions during a long run by DJLing then changing directions
- Recover from shield in the fastest way possible
- Fast teching
- Q dropping

Is this information still current? I'm tempted to mess around with it. Also, I'm having some issues following my Nair OoS. What would be the most useful/fastest options to follow an enemy after an OoS nair? What are other useful options OoS? What do you guys use or think may be worth trying?

 

[Cia]

Vanz I'm really impressed by the recent stuff I've seen from you. GJ, don't let your head get too big.

Thanks =D and neverrrrrr!!

Pick Sheik.

This shouldn't really be the answer to a "How to beat Marth" type question. But it's a good solution to a "what to do when YOU can't beat Marth" type question. And yeah Sheik is kwl for that.

U-throw D-smash might be her best combo.

Is it really legit? I always thought they could just tech and not take damage. It's amazing to catch someone from the side of a platform with this

Vanz, I hope you do really wall at Apex...
and to all the peach players thank you, if it wasn't for this thread and all cool stuff here i would still be lost e with some matchup's... Good **** i dont get to play melee as much as i want to, >.<

Thank you, I hope so too. Are you still going?

--------------

and yeah, Quetz's info is still valid. another cool option would be dsmash oos using the double jump cancel landing method. If you're going to learn how to do it, then i'd play around with that for a while

 

[MacD]

i know you can get up throw > dsmash against spacies at 0, and possibly really low percents, afterwords they will DI too far, although according to magus's guide, you should be able to walk a tad and get them but idk, i normally only get it at like 0 cause i don't normally hit a spacie for less than 10

on falcon, you can do it at 0 IF he DIs behind you, but not infront of

this is based off my experience/what magus said

 

[TheGeneral]

So, I was playing a really technical, fast, aggressive, laser happy falco a second ago and I must say, it never ceases to amaze me how much floating at around full hop height just screws with him. The match suddenly slows down. I mean he can short hop fast fall and full hop fast fall lasers all day and he MIGHT hit me with one if I'm being lazy. Now this is on a stage with high platforms like dreamland or something but still, it's just crazy. Falco has to approach with something other than lasers? WOW!

Float camping, too legit.

Ironically though, after we all had a discussion about how good fd is for peach against a lot of characters, I had so much trouble with falco on fd. Could float camp as much because I eventually had to fall down to his level. And for some reason I kept jump cancelling my grabs when I was trying to chain grab him and kept messing up *sigh*

Also, what do you guys do when falco's start fishing for d-tilts at high percentages. Landing anywhere near him is kind of dangerous obviously. Camping turnips and dairing seemed to be the only things that worked for me. I think I hit him with my d-tilt one time as well. That was pretty cool.

 

[Quaz]

I love FD vs falcos for peach. its easier for me to combo them, and harder for them to combo me because they don't have the platforms for it.

I bet if you learn the timing and use both the analog stick and the buttons you could pull that double jump off landing easier than you'd think. Is it really useful though? Im wondering if you're better off just wavedashing outta shield. If dbling is faster then I'm def gonna mess wit hthat.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

fun theory: fthrow to dsmash works on everyone at zero. confirmed on ffers, marth, and sheik.

 

[exarch]

I bet if you learn the timing and use both the analog stick and the buttons you could pull that double jump off landing easier than you'd think. Is it really useful though? Im wondering if you're better off just wavedashing outta shield. If dbling is faster then I'm def gonna mess wit hthat.

It's not easier than you think. Peach jumps from the ground and you press DJ again within the first 3 frames of her being airborne (iirc.)

If you press it the first frame after being airborne, you land again 1 frame later.
If you press it the second frame after being airborn, you land 3 frames later.
If you press it the third frame after being airborn, you land 5 frames later.

That said you have no landing lag when you land, not the 10 frames of WD lag, and not even the 4 frames of normal landing lag. 0 lag. It is faster than WD, but covers very little ground.

Also having no lag means potentially your retaliation can be very fast, but if you don't do it frame perfectly, your retaliation will not happen because you will still be in the air. If you delay your retaliation for the last situation, you're probably better off WDing.

That said it's still completely plausible and not that difficult to execute once or twice. Consistency has been a problem for me.

Potential important uses I've toyed with: DJL OOS into Dsmash potentially sending people off the edge when they're on the wrong side of you. Also handy against FFers who want to crossup a shuffle against you. And everyone else.

DJL OOS into utilt should easily beat spacies trying to land on you with aerials--and it combos. (Also easy to do if using the joystick as one of the jumps.)

DJL onto platforms as a tech chase off grabs, to continue a chaingrab against FFers. Not guarenteed as any FFer can tech in place and shine/jump away before you grab, but that's what uairing through platforms is for. Pretty much any other teching situation is covered though.

Probably many more, but those are the three big ones I see potentially affecting Peach's metagame.

Spoiler

Also: It pisses me the **** off when I've been preaching this **** for ****ing years. And let's get it straight, it's "Double Jump Landing." The acronym/name has been around longer than me.

Edit: As for "Fast teching," It makes sense, but there's a good chance to mistime it since peach will be tumbling and you've got only a 3 frame window to do it in. If you mistime it you've started using your double jump which is fine I guess but not optimal.

A better option for Fast teching is using your fair right before you hit the ground. It's got a large autocancel window at the beginning of the hitbox so it's much easier to time than the DJL to the ground. And if you do it too soon you're not blowing your second jump. But you gain 4 frames of lag this way.

Maybe the best option is using dair right before you hit the ground, since you don't have to know the way peach is facing to be sure to use the right move. It's autocancel window is small than fair's but still plenty manageable.

Either way DJL is not the best option for fast teching.

 

[KirbyKaze]

DJL might be something to toy with.

 

[DoH]

How do I fight Ganon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ6ly-DcVdg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovmE4QxTAB4

 

[thesage]

I can't watch those vids but Doll told me that in order to fight ganon you just stay in his face and nair him a lot before his moves have a chance to come out.

 

[Quaz]

Exarch I need to come to madison and play you more. I feel your knowledge will get my peach like 10 billion times better.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

sage good luck trying that on his jab
ganon really isn't too easy for peach lol

 

[bladeofapollo]

The first bit of advice I can give you is don't be stubborn. A lot of times it feels like Ganon is in a position where you can retalitate faster than he can continue his combo. DON'T FALL FOR IT. Just DI away and don't try to sneak in a Nair before his attack. Best case scenario, you get a soft Nair; worst case scenario, you get Fair/Bair'd in the face. Respect his attacks and reset your position.

Otherwise, be more aggressive w/ edge-guarding. Ganon's recovery is VERY predictable, or at least limited in it's unpredictablity. If you run off the stage and float, you can often catch his DownB w/ a Fair, which is a BRUTALLY effective edge-guard. If he starts catching on and waiting to DownB, he's trying to spike you. Now, float JUST outside of the range of DownB and he'll eventually have to upB or he won't make it back. When you see the upB start, just Nair. Rinse repeat.

Otherwise, the match is really annoying. You did a good job, Iori just did better-enough to win.

 

[OkamiBW]

Silly Kyle vs Axe 1
Silly Kyle vs Axe 2
Silly Kyle vs Axe 3

 

[Silly Kyle]

Silly Kyle vs Axe 1
Silly Kyle vs Axe 2
Silly Kyle vs Axe 3

OMG most epic set ever!!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

That was a really good set. When I saw how you dropped the win in the third game I became very sad.

 

[thesage]

You force him in the air with turnips, or d-smash, or outspace his jab.

 

[Silly Kyle]

I was very sad when I dropped the win the last game! I got too excited and didn't edgeguard properly. I should have floated and prepared a back air edgeguard rather then grabbing the edge and whiffing!!

 

[The Irish Mafia]

silly kyle i'm gonna use a tag with a <3 in it now
good stuff vs axe, i held my breath every move that last stock

 

[TheGeneral]

DJL OOS into utilt should easily beat spacies trying to land on you with aerials--and it combos. (Also easy to do if using the joystick as one of the jumps.)

This is something I've been trying to implement into my game. djl is just awkward though, even for peach, lol.

I feel everyone's pain on the ganon match-up. I wish our aerials had god-like reach
Something I was experimenting with using fox against ganon is waiting until he lands after an empty short hop cycle and then just spacing an upsmash. I mean all he can really do when he lands is f-tilt or jab or jump again and upsmash can beat all of those.

I'm trying to figure out a good way to adapt this to peach. I'm thinking sh-turnip throw into nair when he lands or perhaps dash attack? Just some thoughts.

Is it really legit? I always thought they could just tech and not take damage. It's amazing to catch someone from the side of a platform with this

I thought this was the case as well. Guess my timing is just off. That wouldn't surprise me though.

 

[Queen]

Matches of Armada versus Taj's Mewtwo are up!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283208

 

[Quaz]

he could shield again, couldn't he General? shield is the best option vs peach's dash attack anyways.

 

[Marth/Falco Pro]

LOL VanityAngel lost to Stabbedbyanipple (one of socal's mediocre/decent falcos) get *****!

Also: any of you peach playing losers wanna MM me at Pound 5?

 

[TheGeneral]

he could shield again, couldn't he General? shield is the best option vs peach's dash attack anyways.

Well, I'm sure he could shield if he was expecting it, but remember that dash attack comes out very quickly. The idea is that if he does any early fair, you punish his landing before he gets a chance to get off the ground again. It's just hard to do anything to ganon when he's already in the air. His jump is faster than ours. It's just the sad truth. Also his up-air destroys you if you ever try to approach from above, so it seems to me that the best way to approach him is from below and in front of him ( It's easier to avoid fair/nair with dash dancing than avoiding up-air while floating)

Also, I think if ganon shields, that's great. Then you can try to keep him pinned down. Of course he'll buffer roll like a ******* and end up half the stage away in a few seconds but at least he's given up some ground at that point.

 

[Teczer0]

This is VaNz

LOL VanityAngel lost to Stabbedbyanipple (one of socal's mediocre/decent falcos) get *****!

Also: any of you peach playing losers wanna MM me at Pound 5?

Don't troll in my thread. There is a way to ask for money and insulting the entire board is not the way to do it.

-----------

Also, wish me luck. Singles bracket today!!

=D

 

[Composeur]

Anyone else think hbox winning was a bunch of BS?

 

[bladeofapollo]

Nope, he earned every second of that tournament.

 

[Quaz]

it was kinda disappointing =( did anyone even take a match off of him at all in bracket? He 3-0'd M2K in WF and Armada in GF.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

he may have earned it but god**** it was stupid to watch
armada just sat in his shield and got grabbed half the set, i ended up walking out


PEACH WILL NEVER WIN A NATIONAL TOUNRAMENT IF ARMADA KEEPS GETTING TOOLED ON BY PUFF
LOOKS LIKE I'M GONNA HAVE TO STEP IT UP FOR POUND 5 AND WIN THERE

 

[ToSsy]

armada just sat in his shield and got grabbed half the set, i ended up walking out

Get grabbed for little damage, or get an up tilt to rest? Yeah, I think the choice is clear, I'll take the grab over losing a stock any day, I'm sure Armada was thinking the same. Give a little more respect to options why don't you?

 

[The Irish Mafia]

i really don't want to argue spesific moments of the match, but he was getting trapped when he had options. utilt at +30 =/= rest. armada's nair oos is frame perfect anyway, he could've shai dropped, fh dthrow turniped, even umbrella'd. he could've done things and the pressure got to him. he did not have to get hit in many situations.

 

[Teczer0]

it was kinda disappointing =( did anyone even take a match off of him at all in bracket? He 3-0'd M2K in WF and Armada in GF.

I was pretty close one game beating him in winners. And Vanz took a game off him iirc.

He didn't win every single game.

Anyone else think hbox winning was a bunch of BS?

If you disregard Mango, he's pretty easily the best player. He deserved the win imo.

 

[ToSsy]

If you disregard Mango, he's pretty easily the best player. He deserved the win imo.

I agree, although his style may be considered boring by many, it's extremely solid, and it requires a lot of preparation on his opponents' side to overcome it.

 

[Composeur]

If you disregard Mango, he's pretty easily the best player. He deserved the win imo.

I disagree that he's "easily" better than Armada. His character is so much more easily abusable than Peach. Yes, it takes skill to land successful rests, but the payoff is so disproportionate. And I don't think he could've taken those sets from Armada without resting, frankly.

So while I'm not disputing that he's an amazing player, I don't think he's clearly second only to mango.

 

[thesage]

Why do you guys care to argue about something like this?

By your logic Taj should be considered top ten or something cuz he ***** **** with mewtwo.

 

[TheGeneral]

Sounds like Armada just needs to either switch to puff himself or find stages with higher, ceilings so rest isn't insta-kill, lol.

Yeah, that first match on fd was baloney, but whatever. I think I'm just going to pick up puff as a secondary or something. Hopefully the transition won't be as rough as moving from peach to fox.

Oh, and sage I'm probably coming to Richmond at the end of this week (Thursday?) or early next week. I'll let you know for sure in a day or two.