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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
i swear at low-mid level 70% of the matchup vs marth is just ensuring that if you are going to fair while getting on stage you time it so that you beat fsmash properly.

if marth lacks kill moves then he is forced to get a wd dodge in order to have a fsmash kill or an uptilt (laggy option that can be baited), or a side b (only works if you are actually still holding in on a marth that dashdanced and dodged your fair..just be aware that they want this at higher percent and DI out if you think the marth can dodge you with dashdancee).

The only other kill setups i can think of are based around shield pressuring into uptilts/side B. but peach's shield game is good, so that isn't that big of a concern. If they manage to get a kill like that just accept it. (if they play around with side b on shield and you are in death percent it probably isn't worth doing nair going forward from shield since you may die for it)

my own question: how does one edgeguard samus with peach. can someone give a primer on what they like to do
 

john!

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
8,063
Location
The Garden of Earthly Delights
throw lots of turnips. you can try throwing them vertically offstage to make a wall that samus has to get past, or just try to throw them at her

try to prevent her from grappling the ledge. if she grapples the stage below the ledge and is forced to jump up, it's an easy dsmash/dair/whatever

if you're feeling super aggro you can go out there and try to hit her directly or **** up her bombs with your sexy body

or you can just pick sheik because samus is bull****
 

Ryobeat

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
800
Location
Fairview, NJ
I would say just throw turnips. Once she gets close enough to grapple, jump above the ledge and turnip drop. Generally i would edgeguard with bair i guess. Also, how do you approach a camping fox?
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
...Out of spite I hope HBox inspires a surge in Puff players. And more people pick up Sheik. And Hax/S2J inspire a surge in Falcon mains as a result of the hype in their MM.
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
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Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
For some mysterious reason I'd be rather happy about facing more Sheiks... actually, it's not that mysterious, yay PAL :D

edit: oh, but the other half of the regions is nothing but Fox, so those are pretty annoying already :(
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
For some mysterious reason I'd be rather happy about facing more Sheiks... actually, it's not that mysterious, yay PAL :D

edit: oh, but the other half of the regions is nothing but Fox, so those are pretty annoying already :(
I hope there's a surge of Puffs in Europe.
 

TheLake

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,057
Location
Butler PA
You dont have a region

if you dont have a zelda in your company

unless your canada

shout outs to wolverine
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
It's like watching two different ballet solos on the same stage. Lots of twirling and dainty hand stuff. Don't jump or you'll probably crash into the other person / get kicked yourself.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
i swear at low-mid level 70% of the matchup vs marth is just ensuring that if you are going to fair while getting on stage you time it so that you beat fsmash properly.
A good chunk of Marth MU is learning how to dash attack Marth for any of the following: being too close, f-smashing (it's faster), grabbing at a bad time, d-tilting too late, turning around at a bad time during his dance, WDing forward for whatever reason... the list literally goes on forever.

Fairing after stalling out or getting enough initiative to beat his f-smash, u-tilt, side-B, and various other common desperation anti-airs is useful. Beating his fair by shifting back just enough and fairing as he misses and exposes his hand is tough and takes some real finesse but it's really rewarding. Nair is child's play, just go high then low.

if marth lacks kill moves then he is forced to get a wd dodge in order to have a fsmash kill or an uptilt (laggy option that can be baited), or a side b (only works if you are actually still holding in on a marth that dashdanced and dodged your fair..just be aware that they want this at higher percent and DI out if you think the marth can dodge you with dashdancee).
Shield a lot vs Marth at high percent is a good base strat, we all know this - Marth kill moves are punishable on shield so shield. Look for bad plays, because everyone flails kill moves sometimes.

If he's somewhat strategically sound, he'll grab in response. Figure out his cues before grabbing or his triggers. Use this to avoid them and if you can counterattack then do so (ex. sidestep > d-smash, WD back > dash attack on lag). Dropping your shield and turning into dash attack mode is reasonable; they often try to play closer as a result of wanting the kill. This makes them not adhere to his lame defensive dash dance spacing and therefore opens up more.

Once you can start controlling his responses to dash attack you can often then use that as a pivot to force him into allowing you get turnips (if he backs off a lot) or initiate shield pressure / grab him (if he shields) to consolidate damage and make him sad. If he plays dash dance properly and doesn't get frustrated then this Marth has figured out the secret to high percent Peach and just play like normal.

Long procedure and he can nullify it at any point by deciding this kill forcing thing doesn't work at all vs a character who can hit in 80 directions out of shield. Maybe we should just move, do the thing she was struggling with most earlier in the stock, and eventually throw her off and see what he can do with it... oh wait, no, an opening - she WDed back! Go F-smash! Wait, no, it got blocked! Curse you, indestructible character!

The only other kill setups i can think of are based around shield pressuring into uptilts/side B. but peach's shield game is good, so that isn't that big of a concern. If they manage to get a kill like that just accept it. (if they play around with side b on shield and you are in death percent it probably isn't worth doing nair going forward from shield since you may die for it)
It's Marth's version of Fox's jab > u-smash only a thousand times suckier. Usable but don't bet the farm on it and only do it when appropriate.

my own question: how does one edgeguard samus with peach. can someone give a primer on what they like to do
Same way any angle projectile character does it. Throw **** at the bombs. Then at her and/or where she can grapple. Sometimes hit her with aerials either by jumping out and swinging (if you hit the bombs in a convenient way that forces her low and can get back to a guarding position, you don't even need to hit her). Repeat until dead. Sometimes uair offstage will kill earlier than nair but I couldn't tell you when (well, I could, but won't).

I still want to understand the intricacies of DJC OOS into like, downsmash, dash attack , etc

:phone:
You can punish Fox, Falco, and Sheik's dash attacks to your shield with d-smash. It's also cool and a good chunk faster as a stationary shield drop method than WD down if you do it perfectly. So there's some merit there. But that's basically all it is. You drop your shield faster in exchange for not moving or getting into float. If that sounds useful, peachy. If not, daisy.

I think there's some applications for DJL on platforms. I've been using it to follow up instead of WL and it seems to make grabbing easier. If nothing else there's less of a visual cue that you're landing there (you just appear there standing after floating up) whereas WL has that smoke, so visually-reactive opponents who know of it or are expecting it on occasion get an action in time. Fortunately, space animals are 'tards so it's usually roll. But every now and then a shine OOS ruins my day with WL and this hasn't happened with DJL quite yet. I also just like it vs Puff if I feel like running on the platform because I enjoy watching her full jump but cannot for the life of me figure out why.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
is it realistic to hog samus's up b? i don't have much experience but i was unsure whether i could float back and grab the ledge before the up b hit me when going low..I didn't want to get reversed and lose matches for free so I just faired instead mostly.

once i've limited her to just up b should I hog or go for aerials or will either work?

and I think if I had been destroying her bombs properly it wouldn't have been an issue
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
You can WD FF edgehog a lot of things. I dunno why you couldn't hog a Samus Up+B if you spot it correctly...

I feel a good play vs Samus in general is to jump towards her and time the nair as you're reaching her, rather than from further away. The only real catch to edgeguarding her when she's offstage is to remember that she can bump herself up a bit with the bomb hop so it's usually better to descend towards her at an angle and track her that way (fade back if necessary, etc).

Throw veggies at bombs. If she's recovering ultra high, throwing them up accomplishes little even if she gets hit by them because of low knockback, but free damage is nice. Maybe you can set up an uair or situation where you can hit her / force her to trade on you and be hit back off, etc. And who knows - maybe you get a dot-eye or stitch at a lucky moment.

I find the dair edgeguard unreliable - her Up+B seems to trade a lot. Considering looking into doing it more like I do vs Marth but I'm not sure what the window is for her being able to edgegrab after the Up+B's hitboxes finish (I should look into that I suppose).

Grab edge > invulnerable float nair is also underrated, as is grabbing the edge and falling towards her with invulnerable bair or whatever. Probably won't kill outright, but it's not a bad way of dealing with her nonsense.





I want to talk more about Puff.

Holding the turnip has some really bizarre yet useful things vs Puff. I think this is a MU where actually knowing which veggie you have out of the normal ones is actually a big deal, since that extra percent from having the winking one versus the ecstatic one changes the KB and how you have to follow up on it. You have to keep Puff's flow disrupted and force her to sit still as much as you can. Stuff and deny jumps. Keep her off your horizontal plane. Dash attack when appropriately.

That said, I'm still not sure about all the nuances of the MU. In pressure situations I'm really digging her grab. The fact that Puff's roll forward is invulnerable on frame 2 isn't posing much of a problem because she's rolling into Peach most of the time when she does that, which is punishable.

In air vs air, when she's not set up her bair spacing I'm finding that FJ and SH (either forward or in place) > wait > react with whatever can be really good for getting the trade (timing Peach's nair as you're getting close to them has been really good lately tbh). Shield > WD is also being an MVP. Peach has really good aerial mobility too; during recovery free falls, it's actually really hard for Puff to consistently land stuff if you're high so long as you pay attention to which zones she's covering IMO. Falling way faster is really useful. Move around, don't focus on hitting her.

Recovering low also seems pretty good as long as you can use the umbrella to protect yourself. The umbrella's priority is really useful.

Puff still wins though.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
I guess the issue is just me typically float hogging. Makes sense I just need to float on reaction when they up b high so i can wd on time probably.

I need to work on my turnip game in general but especially against marth puff and falcon..they just keep cutting through my turnips too easily.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
WD OOS is stellar in the MU.

I find myself pulling more turnips vs Puff (and Marth). Makes me realize just how vulnerable, and yet how good, the turnip is. A very fair projectile (>_> Falco).
 

Ryobeat

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
800
Location
Fairview, NJ
When I grab, I always down throw to Upair or Upsmash(if they miss DI). Also, WD OOS is really useful. I usually just WD alot and then run up shield one of her attacks, so I can get the nair. It might just be the noobness of the Jiggz I am fighting, but I always find dtilt to be useful. Like shield pressure wise, i usually FC Nair, Jab Jab, Dtilt.(This with different orders.) And If I land it, i can just up air them and pull turnips. I also have a question about Falco; I dont know what my gameplan is going into the matchup. I mainly think it has to do with my poor decisions on when to attack, and what to challenge. Lasers always get in the way and make me feel really useless. I would guess that once you have the control/pressure, you are too close for lasers, but I dont know how to get to the control/pressure. So basically I don't know how to start the match/neutral game. Tips?
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
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Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
Float higher than he can shoot, then space with fair :)
If you can't hit it, don't sweat it or freak out and do a panic dsmash. Usually you can just regain your elevated position, and be happy that he had to give up some stage. It's really hard for Falco to get meaningful punishes on missed fairs, because he's sloooow. At some point he will have to cross you because there isn't any more stage to retreat to.
Just try to avoid whiffs that leave him super close, if those happen you might want to shield / jab (or mix in the dsmash occasionally). Or dash away (too few people do that in general imho. Peach dash away after fc aerials is sooo good :D). Just be sure not to dsmash everytime, because that way you are opening yourself up for easy punishment.
(I don't think there's really need for a "what do I do if I hit him or his shield?" part but just in case: if you hit, you get a techchase. Tech roll away is pretty safe for him, and there's times where you can't punish it at all. But he has to give up space, so that's pretty much what you want in the first place :D If you hit his shield, you can go for the usual peach shield pressure mix up stuff (jab, grab, downsmash, dash away))

Once your close enough, you can try to dash attack him for shooting unsafe lasers.
Shield > jump oos > float at your desired height can be really useful if he tries to lock you down with lasers

Regarding what to look for (those are pretty much my own opinion, so you (or others) might disagree entirely).
below 20ish percents: fair > techchase > Grab > upthrow > downsmash. Or parts of that (not every grab comes from techchases, mixing in dthrow techchases can be useful, etcpp).
between that and ~70ish: dash attack / dtilt / grabs into combos or the chaingrab. If possible at least end with a edgeguard situation if you can't secure the kill right away.
after that: basically any aerial that will put him offstage.

Of course there's other neat things to get, e.g. you can chaingrab him well after 70% (I just think it's way easier to hit aerials than grabs... if he shields the aerial you could catch a grab though, so that'd work out pretty well if you want to CG anyways... :D), those are just what I generally would like to get. Of course there's situations where you just know that he's unprepared for something different... if so go for that obviously (:

Regarding defense:
If you can't get up a fair wall in time, you can still try to trade with him using groundfloated bairs (or nair or dash attack if you can get the spacing). Or just shield and work from there. Few Falcos like to grab, so shielding is pretty decent, especially if they go for the same type of shield pressure every time. Try really hard to not get predictable what you do oos, because most OOS options are easily punished if Falco expects them :)
If he likes to dair you at low percents, you can try to float into him in order to land with no lag after the dair (I think this works to about 20 percent, and if he catches on and goes for nairs ... your goto CC > stuff works well on those :D).
Dash dance > stuff can be nice as well, especially if he tends to want to approach instead of sending in lasers.

edgeguards:
Turnips are super good for covering one or more options (I especially like it vs the sweetspotted illusion height).
If he can't hit the sweetspot from his position or you think he'll miss it anyways (or is afraid of edgehogs), you can use bair / nair (/ fair, but I think that one is usually too much risk (timing difficulties) for what benefits it offers. But if you can use it and hit below the stage as well, more power to you ;) ) to send him back off again.
Dair is really good against sweetspot firebird from below, especially if you can get a spacing that will keep you safe from its hitbox. (dair > turnip pull > dair his second up b > throw him dead is fun :D).
If he uses up b above stage height it can be really tough to edgeguard him, so don't get frustrated if you miss it. Also, you might want to try and catch him offstage to avoid having to guess whether he goes high or for the edge (weak aerial > strong aerial is great for these).
If you float near the ledge with your back turned against it, you threaten to do both bair / a simple edge hog, that can be really helpful.


sorry for this mostly being a huge mess of random tidbits of information, I'm just not a very organized person I guess :x :D
and I guess I got kinda carried away, since you basically just asked how to get around lasers to which the very simple answer is: "float above them" most of the time (:
 

BladeWise

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
1,171
Location
Des Moines/Renton, WA
I drove a carpool to the recent BC tournament, MITH 7.
Here are some of my videos. Critiques welcome

Bladewise vs Yakal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVXi0Z5Teqo
Plenty of Fox dying. First game is pretty crazy.

Bladewise vs Daikonos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHgnG0GqEYg
BC players lack higher-level Peach experience overall.

Winner's Finals: Bladewise vs Silent Wolf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKnbnQ30XDI
^ Very close set. I'm not too pleased with my edge-guarding decisions overall, but there are certainly some good moments.
I seemed to hesitate too much when he upB'd from pretty far away.

Grand Finals: Bladewise vs Silent Wolf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvOfBVVAxWI
Better overall play on my part.
 

Get Low

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
948
Location
Niles, Ohio
I'm beginning to think that Bladewise is the best Peach besides Armada.
What do you guys think?

^ Also, we can't really critique you Bladewise, because you're pretty much better than all of us, lol.
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
MacD, Vanz, Atma, Vwins... just to name a few other contenders for that #2 slot ;)

The videos already popped up in my youtube feed, and I sorta watched some. I didn't really pay too much attention though, but I was thinking about rewatching them for more than just "entertainment purposes" anyways, so if anything catches my attention I'll be sure to let you know :)

Also: You can always critique videos of people better than you. There's not a snowballs chance in hell that I'd be better than S2J (not yet. /practicepracticepractice :D), but I can surely notice that in his latest set against MacD he fails to punish a single dash attack after shielding quite a few of them (: (and I just watched that video for fun without really analyzing either... should start doing that some time again :D)
 

Silly Kyle

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
2,769
Location
Tucson, AZ
Better watch out for my Peach! Been getting 1st and 2nd in my state, only losing to Axe recently when he attends.

Also, Baka has been putting in work too!
 

baka4moé

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
2,053
Location
Richmond, TX
hahahahaha aw thanks kyle i really appreciate the acknowledgement. i know you've been doing work yourself.

that said though i know, for myself at least, i've quite a ways to go. don't really have much results yet, though i'll be working on it!

speaking of other peaches though its really interesting how when watching them i sometimes get some things and sometimes don't. for instance, when i watch armada i feel like i understand a majority of what he's doing (remembering it and actually executing it is another story). but when i watch like say, bladewise or macd, although a lot of things i'm like "wow" or "that was cool/smart", there are a lot more fair amount of things i see that i just dont understand why they did it (even if it was amazing). does anyone feel this way when watching others?
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
i wasn't intending to do a complete list, there's just toooo many Peach players around who're somewhere on that level (MacD / Vanz might have been ahead at some point, but since they've been slacking off lately... :D).

@Baka: I think with Armada everything looks so logical because he's so incredibly good at making stuff happen. I've come across situations before where I feel I could use some better answers and when I try to look for typical responses Armada does, I can't find examples because he just keeps out of that situation in the first place (:
And I think we all have instances of thinking "nonono, what are you doing? That is so wrong, you need to do *this* here, maybe mix in *that*, but never do that move you've chosen there" when watching other players :D
also: I need to start watching Chihayafuru (:
 
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