VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Wake]

I don't know if I've ever been fthrow->dair'd lol. Gonna check some of my old matches just in case though haha.

 

[KirbyKaze]

This is really cool. I've honestly never experienced fthrow->tipper utilt. Something I'm going to both implement in friendlies as Marth and watch out for as Peach. I also particularly liked what you had to say about challenging Marth's DD. That's the part I find the most difficulty with. The jab thing made a lot of sense though.

The thing about Marth's DD is that you can't really challenge it directly with the same method simply because it's so versatile. It is imperative to spot the chances to safe turnip pull (STP) so you can establish stage presence outside your normal zone (since Peach is normally a really low reach character, like Ganon and Zelda).

In a general sense, you can expect Marth to be playing to avoid your dash attack, since it's by far your most threatening tool when he's grounded simply because it's long, stuffs a lot of his swings, and puts him in the air - where he doesn't want to be. He will be doing other things, but that's usually one of his priorities. This basically means ideally you beat this by converting the ground game into a close range one (close spacing) where you can leverage advantage by out-timing and out-positioning his moves, rather than being forced to trudge through the entire level and try to call his dash distances and pray you're not being baited (far spacing).

If they jump and swing instead of dash dance, the game's not too different except he has DJ and air control rather than dash dance, WD, shield, jump, JC grab, run (and all that comes with run), and so forth. He has more options on the ground, but his aerials have more range and he's still faster. He can also arguably defend from turnips better because of his nair, DJ, and decent air mobility. Dealing with this mostly revolves around throwing the veggie better than he swings (out-position him, bait the swing and punish, etc) or you stay outside his fair spacing and get ready to dash dance and maneuver the ground to try and get a position where he can be hit or pressured.

Vs jumping Marth, sliding under him with float or FC nairing beneath him to try and coax a trade can be really strong plays. Nair is MVP when you're below - aim to hit with the raised hand.

It's just tough because even as you're starting to corner him, you can still get juked simply because you're slow. Or you think you've got him but you actually need to press a bit more, a bit more safely... but you think you've got him so you dash attack and surprise he barely evaded you.

Dash attack is great vs Marth but it is a skill tester IMO.

 

[silentSWAG]

nice bit of info here
thanks david

and for edge guarding like you said going out there could be great, because of trades
you think run nair or wd back bair could work
or maybe short hop bair

 

[DoH]

Here's me vs the moon if you guys want some marth notes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mesBWLtb_18

 

[TheLake]

Nj on that set mr.Oh the D

As for YOU KK KAZEKIRB

elaborate more on the "low" reach character thing

I just dont understand

and it makes me sad

confused

and...and lonely :/

 

[Ryobeat]

Here's me vs the moon if you guys want some marth notes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mesBWLtb_18

What do you think you could have done better?

Edit- Also, when do you decide to use dairs? I'm also getting scared by getting pinched by his recovery, or I never think to use it in the air to stuff him.

 

[john!]

yeah dude din's fire can go across like the whole map

low reach my ***

 

[DoH]

Well I knew I was going to win so I played really aggressively. I could have been more patient and defensive; it almost cost me the match in game 1. NY in general has a weird campy style and I feel like my rushdown is pretty effective against that. Like they can't tomahawk you if you are comboing them lol

I could have used more turnips and done better combos off of my dash attacks and uairs. Also my edgeguards were really awful; I missed a lot of easy rolls and stuff because of bad timing. I could have done more downtilt or just bairs from the edge. My edgegaurds against marth are really 2005ish lol

I use that low float dair as a patroling mechanism as a response to dash dancers; they often run in to punish it and get tipped by the dair or the nair. That's how I won game one.

Also here's me vs HBK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BobEYtwQ0ew

Insert "day after my birthday hangover johns" here

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nj on that set mr.Oh the D

As for YOU KK KAZEKIRB

elaborate more on the "low" reach character thing

I just dont understand

and it makes me sad

confused

and...and lonely :/

I view reach as a sort of sum between a character's movement and action. The higher your reach, the more land you can attack and threaten. The lower... the less space you can immediately control since you can't assert yourself there.

Let's use Zelda as an example. For Zelda, we can take a look at her movement techniques (SH, FJ, WD, and dash). Out of both of these, you can see that her low speed limits the amount of stage she can actually control (crappy dash dance, slow WD, etc). After this we have her moves - for the purpose of reach, we can generally look at their longest 1-3 moves. I don't feel like analyzing her entire character so I'm just gonna look at dash attack. Admittedly, it can hit a decent area in front of her. However, even though her dash attack is longish, her low movement speed limits the distance she can threaten with it severely.

Now place this in contrast to, say, Fox's dash dance...

Now let's tie this to Peach. In truth, Peach also falls victim to this to some degree because the amount of space she can actually control without a turnip is actually really small and similar to Zelda's. She makes up for it to some degree by controlling that space really well, and having one of the most ridiculous counterattack suites in the game... but ultimately her inability to really threaten beyond a certain point and the rigidity of her game in some aspects is a problem. Any character with a good dash dance can really exploit this, Marth included. That said, Peach isn't totally helpless. It's just undeniably a weakness.

 

[silentSWAG]

Well I knew I was going to win so I played really aggressively

Let's use Zelda as an example.

my favorite quotes

 

[Xyzz]

Didn't you main Sheik?

 

[silentSWAG]

i do main sheik

 

[silentSWAG]

just on my peach ****

shes for sure funner
with all of her tricks
and her upair combos are cool

 

[crush]

swag slox told me he ***** u at big house

True?

 

[silentSWAG]

he beat me in one mm out of 3

so naww

 

[The Irish Mafia]

silentswag we should play double peach :3

 

[KirbyKaze]

yeah dude din's fire can go across like the whole map

low reach my ***

Your post was bad and you should feel bad

 

[Rosedemon]

yeah dude din's fire can go across like the whole map

low reach my ***

 

[john!]

whoops, i thought this was the brawl boards, my mistake guys

 

[Strong Badam]

why would you be there?

 

[MacD]

yo yo silent swag, you going to apex?????

 

[john!]

why would you be there?

i got lost, the internet is a big place

 

[Rosedemon]

whoops, i thought this was the brawl boards, my mistake guys

 

[VA]

^ um didn't u use this like a month ago or something? stay fresh plz.

 

[MacD]

 

[VA]

an...ecard?

ew, i guess this is why u never got into the whole 'image/meme posting thing'.

 

[silentSWAG]

yo yo silent swag, you going to apex?????

yeah!! ima try my best to go
we gota playl

 

[Rosedemon]

^ um didn't u use this like a month ago or something? stay fresh plz.

 

[Ripple]

I can see why someone would be confused for this being the brawl boards

 

[Strong Badam]

Not enough complaining about Meta Knight to be the Brawl boards.

 

[Xyzz]

Didn't they ban him as well?

 

[Wake]

I think e cards are funny...

 

[MacD]

yeah!! ima try my best to go
we gota playl

hellz yea, i don't that like maybe quality of your answer though

an...ecard?

ew, i guess this is why u never got into the whole 'image/meme posting thing'.

i'm sorry you didn't like my choice of insult

please let me know what will win over your respect so i can make sure next time we are on the same page

also if there are any rules you better tell me now since apparently i'm just an idiot

 

[Xyzz]

^me trying to understand the finer points of your picture wars :D

 

[VA]

the rules are 'taste'

 

[DoH]

 

[Ryobeat]

So i am seriously bad at Marth/Sheik, but generally okay vs Fox/Falcon. I feel like this has to do with me playing agressive, but i really don't know the thick details of Marth/Sheik. What are the similarities in the matchup?

-Also, what are like , the 5 main things you need to watch out for?(AKA things you need to always think about i.e not getting grabbed)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth vs Peach from earlier

MU is mostly won by getting under him and then covering his descent with various things. Push him to the edge and keep him there since his ledge recoveries are meh compared to Fox, Falco, and Sheik's and you can zone him / pressure with turnips really effectively there (he doesn't benefit from holding the veggie so him catching it and then throwing it at you to disrupt is also less of an issue). Keep him from linking throw > kill move at all costs. Turnips are good for zoning his dash dance and pressing him to the edge but don't try to follow every single one since you're still slow and your ground covers are meh vs his dash dance & shield-WD mix - he seriously doesn't need much stage to dance around you (a lot of Peaches overextend with fair and then jab or w/e and make a move that's hard to punish easy to). Also... if you can edgeguard him decently, huge plus to you in the MU because most Peaches are terrible at it. Jumping off with attacks and trading is super pro so long as you don't get spiked or something. Same with holding the edge with lots of invincibility to force him onstage and then standing for the free hit - do your favourite combo at low percents and run by FC nair / charge d-smash otherwise. Faking the turnip throw and then going for an aerial (float the aerial or z-drop the turnip to do this), or floating out to aerial while holding a turnip and then backing off when he commits to protect himself (this is also where you chuck the veggie at him) are really good simple tricks too for disrupting his returns.

Sheik? God help you. Combo her to death. Don't get grabbed. Defend a lot since Sheik's approach is meh. Nair OOS vs SHFF fair AC pressure.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Make sure your edgeguards on Sheik are 1000000000% on point. It's probably the weakest thing about her, abuse it.

Make sure you're standing from the ledge most of the time. If you know she's going for the ledge, however, then roll. Reverse nair is the best tool here because she can't CC first hit > get sent to other side, but it takes more time than ledgestand > downsmash. I'd advise learning how to time that properly.

If you think her percent is kind of low, you can ledgestand > dtilt > more fun combos that push her offstage (dtilt > FJ reverse nair is good).

 

[Xyzz]

Imo playing agressive against spacies / CF works much better than playing agressive against Marth / Sheik, yeah. The first three are really good if you allow them to set up their approaches freely, while the later two are kinda limited in what they can do to you, if you're careful. So make extra sure not to rush in blindly and get punished for it. Obviously you shouldn't do that against the fastfallers either, but just keep in mind those two match ups allow you much more time to set up a safe approach yourself. That is if you want to... Spacies can just keep shooting you and you really don't want to present CF the opportunity to set up DD grab / nairs... but with Sheik / Marth you aren't pressured into approaching that much, if you don't think the situation is favourable to you at some points in the match (sure, sheik has needles, but those are far easier to avoid than lasers).

Marth: Other than what's already been written, I'd like to add that you should keep in mind that he really lacks legit kill setups on Peach, so be extra sure not to run into fsmashes and stuff (: