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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)
- Thread starter Cia
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Ask more specific questions, we might be able to help
I can't think of any good docs outside the WC though...
HMW, Bob$, and Shroomed are all here..
guess there's OTG and Boss?
In general, don't do your CC game like vs other chars. You can CC his jab->dsmash at the jab, but if he's nairing, instead of running away and CC->dsmashing, you might need to run towards and cc->dsmash, since he has a reverse sex kick.
DI Dthrow behind so he can't kobe you very easily, switch to forward DI if he uses his slow backthrow
Full hop floats over pills, bair hits right through the pills and continues on.
Try to edgeguard starting high, then drop down with a bair. Or dodge pills and edgeguard, or use the lightshield edgehog on his pills as he is recovering.
Don't DI in on uairs, it'll lead to some hefty combos.
Alan will probably be able to answer better, he's had years of doc experience
I can't think of any good docs outside the WC though...
HMW, Bob$, and Shroomed are all here..
guess there's OTG and Boss?
In general, don't do your CC game like vs other chars. You can CC his jab->dsmash at the jab, but if he's nairing, instead of running away and CC->dsmashing, you might need to run towards and cc->dsmash, since he has a reverse sex kick.
DI Dthrow behind so he can't kobe you very easily, switch to forward DI if he uses his slow backthrow
Full hop floats over pills, bair hits right through the pills and continues on.
Try to edgeguard starting high, then drop down with a bair. Or dodge pills and edgeguard, or use the lightshield edgehog on his pills as he is recovering.
Don't DI in on uairs, it'll lead to some hefty combos.
Alan will probably be able to answer better, he's had years of doc experience
Probably.
Though it would be pretty awesome if Peach plucked a full grown tree instead of a turnip and started swinging that around like those giants in the fantasy movies :D
I hate parts of Peach's edgeguarding and love others... it's so annoying to grab the edge and can't do **** from it... stupid dip before the actual doublejump making ledgedrop -> doublejump -> stuff completely unviable
On the other hand sniping people with turnips when they are still fairly far away is usually a kill (unless the character is unfair... like Jiggs / Samus / other Peach :D) ... and she's really good at hitting people with her aerials when they go for the edge, since just about everthing reaches so far below the stage, so it's rather fine (until people would learn to not suck at edge techs... )
Though it would be pretty awesome if Peach plucked a full grown tree instead of a turnip and started swinging that around like those giants in the fantasy movies :D
I hate parts of Peach's edgeguarding and love others... it's so annoying to grab the edge and can't do **** from it... stupid dip before the actual doublejump making ledgedrop -> doublejump -> stuff completely unviable
On the other hand sniping people with turnips when they are still fairly far away is usually a kill (unless the character is unfair... like Jiggs / Samus / other Peach :D) ... and she's really good at hitting people with her aerials when they go for the edge, since just about everthing reaches so far below the stage, so it's rather fine (until people would learn to not suck at edge techs... )
Are you sure there aren't frames where bair will extend below the stage? I always thought so, and blame me being bad if I fail to hit firefox sweetspots (which is pretty rare, but ofc that might be the spacie player failing to hit the sweetspot, so uhh... yeah. Somebody should make a shiny picture with the stage and the bair :D).
I think if Fox grabs the ledge, there isn't anything guaranteed anymore. Guessing right is still a good chance at a kill, but at least I personally can't react / cover all the fun options like ledgedash -> shine / shield / whatever or downair or waveland on the side platform or whatever...
There seems to be some things that prompt many people into doing stupid things though, which is incredibly fun :D
I think if Fox grabs the ledge, there isn't anything guaranteed anymore. Guessing right is still a good chance at a kill, but at least I personally can't react / cover all the fun options like ledgedash -> shine / shield / whatever or downair or waveland on the side platform or whatever...
There seems to be some things that prompt many people into doing stupid things though, which is incredibly fun :D
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No, if Fox sweetspots like he should from below, bair doesn't reach below if we do it from the ledge. We have to float dair, or do something else.
I get hit by ledge dash > upsmash a lot, cause I'm looking for other things...but when I start covering the ledgedash, other things get me...
I guess I just have to find the options they like the most and abuse them, until I get to the level where people are mixing these up adequately. Then, I just pray or something.
Forcing reactions from them during their recovery (floating at a certain height, throwing a turnip, etc) is really good, and I need more practice with that, too.
I get hit by ledge dash > upsmash a lot, cause I'm looking for other things...but when I start covering the ledgedash, other things get me...
I guess I just have to find the options they like the most and abuse them, until I get to the level where people are mixing these up adequately. Then, I just pray or something.
Forcing reactions from them during their recovery (floating at a certain height, throwing a turnip, etc) is really good, and I need more practice with that, too.
Shrouded, what i do (i stole it from watching armada) is fc fairs. U have to do it at the right height and distance (of course) and it works really well plus it seems u can keep throwing them out as long as the fox is on the edge. If i have time later i will post of armada doing it (it sounds kinda to simple and stupid but it works really well vs fox)
edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xxZz8lOuGI&feature=youtu.be (go to 4:06, at 4:53 armada is less successful but tries it again, he tries is a lot in the 3rd match but kinda messes it up). I am not saying that is the end all be all thing to do when fox is on the edge but so far when i remember to try it in tourney (or in a mm i had) it has netted me kills and i believe might of been the difference maker in a tourney set i won vs g$ this past weekend.
Also if u watch that set and the gf set u can see armada uses fair while fox is on the edge to sometimes bait a reaction from the fox and then punish with something else
edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xxZz8lOuGI&feature=youtu.be (go to 4:06, at 4:53 armada is less successful but tries it again, he tries is a lot in the 3rd match but kinda messes it up). I am not saying that is the end all be all thing to do when fox is on the edge but so far when i remember to try it in tourney (or in a mm i had) it has netted me kills and i believe might of been the difference maker in a tourney set i won vs g$ this past weekend.
Also if u watch that set and the gf set u can see armada uses fair while fox is on the edge to sometimes bait a reaction from the fox and then punish with something else
I mostly use fair and try to cover most of the options I think my opponent will most likely take.
If you whiff / mistime it, you can still often get something going due to (almost) non existant landing lag
If you whiff / mistime it, you can still often get something going due to (almost) non existant landing lag
edit: nope, I doubt double laser changes this. If I am not mistaken, he can't get it out in a way that will guarantee he will hit you and allow him to land before you. And that is assuming he gets the complete advantage from ledge grab invul + perfectly letting go at the right frame. If he is already hanging there for a moment, the whole idea of doing a lhdl is pretty suicidal. But that whole issue makes the quote stack only a quarter as funny, sorry for misreading so much
No me and Shroomed have only played in tournament (singles) at Apex 2012. We have also played against each other in teams at both Genesis.
ShroudedOne: Against ICs
FC Fair: The most stupid thing in the entire MU. FC fairs is the key to beat IC and is actually something that is worth to "spam". You need to have kinda good spaceing but not something to be worried about.
After your FC fair pretty much two things happens.
1: Yout hit them and Nana can never tech so you pretty much fair her over the entire stage (she jumps in the same timeing off stage every time so just nair her when she is offstage).
2: They shield it but thew glide to far away and can't punish you. NEVER (pretty much) d-smash after a fair it is way to risky. After a FC fair just go up to the air and repeat what I already have said.
What to do when you have them separated and have kinda much time:
It depends like the first page says it is good to fc nair Nana and fc bair Popo (or the other way around if they are on the opposite side). This is good but another thing I find good is to pull a turnip and throw towards popo. Now they have to shield/jump/catch it and that takes time (they usually never catch it anyway).
I don't really know wtat more I can say cause FC fairs is 90% of my style and in the end Peach wins against ICs if you are playing like that (at least no ICs have been able to work around it against me so far so I think it is a pretty good stragety).
Ground game overall is not that good cause they can grab you on the ground. If you have tons of space I guess pull a trunip and approach with FC fair is good but expect from that not so much ground game.
ShroudedOne: Against ICs
FC Fair: The most stupid thing in the entire MU. FC fairs is the key to beat IC and is actually something that is worth to "spam". You need to have kinda good spaceing but not something to be worried about.
After your FC fair pretty much two things happens.
1: Yout hit them and Nana can never tech so you pretty much fair her over the entire stage (she jumps in the same timeing off stage every time so just nair her when she is offstage).
2: They shield it but thew glide to far away and can't punish you. NEVER (pretty much) d-smash after a fair it is way to risky. After a FC fair just go up to the air and repeat what I already have said.
What to do when you have them separated and have kinda much time:
It depends like the first page says it is good to fc nair Nana and fc bair Popo (or the other way around if they are on the opposite side). This is good but another thing I find good is to pull a turnip and throw towards popo. Now they have to shield/jump/catch it and that takes time (they usually never catch it anyway).
I don't really know wtat more I can say cause FC fairs is 90% of my style and in the end Peach wins against ICs if you are playing like that (at least no ICs have been able to work around it against me so far so I think it is a pretty good stragety).
Ground game overall is not that good cause they can grab you on the ground. If you have tons of space I guess pull a trunip and approach with FC fair is good but expect from that not so much ground game.
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Shrouded what do u mean bad at landing?
Also i know armada fought shroomed at apex this year, did they face in any other tourney?
Also i know armada fought shroomed at apex this year, did they face in any other tourney?
@Armada: I've sort of been afraid to just float fair them, because I fear their forward smash/utilt/upsmash, but that is probably just bad spacing on my end.
Yeah, I realized after some thought and watching videos that downsmash is good if it hits them, but way too risky indeed. It's better to just get back into the air, especially if they shield the fair.
Nana is an odd creature.
Thanks for the tips.
Yay, I was always afraid of actually facing ICs in tourney (never played against them yet lol... Lugi, Check. Yoshi, check. MewTwo, check. Even a GaW, check. ICs, never heard of those :D).
But if it boils down to hitting them with fair, I'm good. That's pretty much all I do anyways. Spacing / hitting stuff with Fair is pretty much precisely what I do when I don't have another idea lol (:
But if it boils down to hitting them with fair, I'm good. That's pretty much all I do anyways. Spacing / hitting stuff with Fair is pretty much precisely what I do when I don't have another idea lol (:
WHAT DID YOU THINK OF HIS FABULOUS TEAMMATE?!
Im not Armada, but you keep asking so i'll help.
So like Peach, Doc can be played pretty differently depending on the players style. So more info on how your Doc plays would be helpful.
Generally, Doc sucks at approaching Peach. You can CC things like dash attack, upairs, nair and what not, but you cant CC his dair approaches so dont try. If hes approaching you with pills, just attack through them or shield and then OOS something, just make sure you're not getting baited.
Just like Peach, Doc can aerial your shield and then jab-->downsmash certain punishes, but Nair OOS should be it. I tend to just back up and get more space because Doc cant challenge Peach's space that well.
When you get grabbed by Doc he really only has two options. Always DI the downthrow behind him and spam nair if you see him going for a pivot fair. He can get a guaranteed back air though. If he starts back throwing you, its so slow that you have time to DI in and up.
Always recover high vs Doc because he can punish low recoveries with bair or cape. If he bairs you, always DI up and in, and if he capes you at the beginning of your up b, it sends you into a tumble so you're most likely dead. Try peach bombing out of the tumble if you're on the right type of stage.
Your shield pressure on Doc is amazing and if you dont have tech skill then I feel sorry for you. He cant do anything about FC aerials besides up-b OOS. You can be upsmashed OOS shield so you have to keep your timing strict. FC bairs on Docs shield are amazing and tricks them into thinking they can shield grab it. Be careful about getting stuck in the Fc-Fair --> jab --> downsmash because getting punished by Doc hurts.
Turnips kinda suck as an approach, but you can play mindgames with them.
Atma pretty much covered how to edgeguard Doc, but if there are any questions then ask.
Armada what is your advice vs doc?
So like Peach, Doc can be played pretty differently depending on the players style. So more info on how your Doc plays would be helpful.
Generally, Doc sucks at approaching Peach. You can CC things like dash attack, upairs, nair and what not, but you cant CC his dair approaches so dont try. If hes approaching you with pills, just attack through them or shield and then OOS something, just make sure you're not getting baited.
Just like Peach, Doc can aerial your shield and then jab-->downsmash certain punishes, but Nair OOS should be it. I tend to just back up and get more space because Doc cant challenge Peach's space that well.
When you get grabbed by Doc he really only has two options. Always DI the downthrow behind him and spam nair if you see him going for a pivot fair. He can get a guaranteed back air though. If he starts back throwing you, its so slow that you have time to DI in and up.
Always recover high vs Doc because he can punish low recoveries with bair or cape. If he bairs you, always DI up and in, and if he capes you at the beginning of your up b, it sends you into a tumble so you're most likely dead. Try peach bombing out of the tumble if you're on the right type of stage.
Your shield pressure on Doc is amazing and if you dont have tech skill then I feel sorry for you. He cant do anything about FC aerials besides up-b OOS. You can be upsmashed OOS shield so you have to keep your timing strict. FC bairs on Docs shield are amazing and tricks them into thinking they can shield grab it. Be careful about getting stuck in the Fc-Fair --> jab --> downsmash because getting punished by Doc hurts.
Turnips kinda suck as an approach, but you can play mindgames with them.
Atma pretty much covered how to edgeguard Doc, but if there are any questions then ask.
I was just asking armada since he was here giving out some mu advice lol. My problem is i dont have any docs to play on a regular basis. What happened is at no johns after a pretty close match vs dj nintendo's fox he switched to doc and i realized i had no idea how to fight that character. For some reason despite being at the recording set up it wasn't recorded. So now i am stuck asking for vague advice hoping i can pick up something just incase i have to play his doc again this weekend.
Anyway thanks for the mu info rosedemon
Anyway thanks for the mu info rosedemon
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also if you call the nair in spot as a wall u can pull a turnip cause u know he is not going to punish it, dont do this often.
on smaller levels the dash attack can be really good against nair. also dont be in a hurry to approach, peach is slow on the ground so falcon will come to you. if you are too aggressive with fairs and dash attacks you can be punished.
be patient and approach with caution
on smaller levels the dash attack can be really good against nair. also dont be in a hurry to approach, peach is slow on the ground so falcon will come to you. if you are too aggressive with fairs and dash attacks you can be punished.
be patient and approach with caution
Looking forward to the videos, Strong Bad!!
I played GG7 last week and gave his Falcon the business.
I'm really bad at explaining my smash thoughts, but when you're fighting Falcon, you have to be patient and you have to be very quick.
When Falcon is dash dance camping you, don't get scared and throw out moves like dash attack and down smash. Good Falcons will be looking for that.
Quick wavedashes back are your best friend in this matchup. Falcon players are usually tempted to run in and nair/uair/knee and you can generally outspace it by floating and punishing with an aerial, dash attack, and/or grab. If you don't space properly, you will probably get hit by the last hit boxes of his nair
On stages with platforms, you definitely want to pressure them with up airs from below and juggle them and finish with a nair to edge guard.
If falcon is recovering from below, plucking a turnip and throwing it down works wonders. Just be ready to ground float bair. If they recover high, float to nair is amazing. Just make sure you hit them with the right part of the hitbox or you might help them recover back onto the stage by sending them the wrong way.
also, sometimes falcons try to trick you by making you believe they're gomna land on the stage and then will pull back and grab the ledge. Generally, you will want always cover that option cuz if they land on the stage, they'll still be in lag and in prime position to get punished.
For the the stages:
Final Destination - chain grab and combos
Fountain of Dreams - platforms are generally great for Peach and bad for Falcon. You can also reach and pressure the top platforms with full hop floated aerials like up air.
dreamland is ok but sometimes he lives forever, but so does Peach.
yoshi's story is ok if you have a good pressure and combo game. Otherwise, you will get frustrated from dying early and trying to camp.
Battlefield is alright, I just don't like the top platform. Hit helps his recovery and camp game.
Pokemon stadium is kinda dumb. I like the stage transformations cuz it allows me to get good turnip pulls. I just really hate the short sides for early kills against Peach
also, it takes experience, but you need to learn how to DI his combos, like his up air wheel of fortune bull****.
Don't get grabbed! Down throw > knee is stupid as ****. If you do, pray they **** up. When youre at kill percent, pay attention to them trying to grab you and punish accordingly. Jumping and using float cancelled aerials works and spot dodge to whatever works too.
turnips aren't as useful in this matchup unless you're edge guarding. Most of the time Falcon can break through them with nair and punish you. Or just straight up run in and grab.
Jab has some interesting uses. Mostly when a falcon is close to you. It also interrupts aerials and can lead to grabs and juicy down smashes when they are caught off guard and don't react.
finishing your edge guards and combos is really important. When falcon makes it back, he has this uncanny ability of coming back and murdering your ***. level 1 Falcon is my favorite practice partner when Im alone. Makes my combos on him more consistent and deadly.
Gf nair is beast in this matchup if you're fast with them. Or just nair in general. It can beat a lot of his moves if timed correctly.
I played GG7 last week and gave his Falcon the business.
I'm really bad at explaining my smash thoughts, but when you're fighting Falcon, you have to be patient and you have to be very quick.
When Falcon is dash dance camping you, don't get scared and throw out moves like dash attack and down smash. Good Falcons will be looking for that.
Quick wavedashes back are your best friend in this matchup. Falcon players are usually tempted to run in and nair/uair/knee and you can generally outspace it by floating and punishing with an aerial, dash attack, and/or grab. If you don't space properly, you will probably get hit by the last hit boxes of his nair
On stages with platforms, you definitely want to pressure them with up airs from below and juggle them and finish with a nair to edge guard.
If falcon is recovering from below, plucking a turnip and throwing it down works wonders. Just be ready to ground float bair. If they recover high, float to nair is amazing. Just make sure you hit them with the right part of the hitbox or you might help them recover back onto the stage by sending them the wrong way.
also, sometimes falcons try to trick you by making you believe they're gomna land on the stage and then will pull back and grab the ledge. Generally, you will want always cover that option cuz if they land on the stage, they'll still be in lag and in prime position to get punished.
For the the stages:
Final Destination - chain grab and combos
Fountain of Dreams - platforms are generally great for Peach and bad for Falcon. You can also reach and pressure the top platforms with full hop floated aerials like up air.
dreamland is ok but sometimes he lives forever, but so does Peach.
yoshi's story is ok if you have a good pressure and combo game. Otherwise, you will get frustrated from dying early and trying to camp.
Battlefield is alright, I just don't like the top platform. Hit helps his recovery and camp game.
Pokemon stadium is kinda dumb. I like the stage transformations cuz it allows me to get good turnip pulls. I just really hate the short sides for early kills against Peach
also, it takes experience, but you need to learn how to DI his combos, like his up air wheel of fortune bull****.
Don't get grabbed! Down throw > knee is stupid as ****. If you do, pray they **** up. When youre at kill percent, pay attention to them trying to grab you and punish accordingly. Jumping and using float cancelled aerials works and spot dodge to whatever works too.
turnips aren't as useful in this matchup unless you're edge guarding. Most of the time Falcon can break through them with nair and punish you. Or just straight up run in and grab.
Jab has some interesting uses. Mostly when a falcon is close to you. It also interrupts aerials and can lead to grabs and juicy down smashes when they are caught off guard and don't react.
finishing your edge guards and combos is really important. When falcon makes it back, he has this uncanny ability of coming back and murdering your ***. level 1 Falcon is my favorite practice partner when Im alone. Makes my combos on him more consistent and deadly.
Gf nair is beast in this matchup if you're fast with them. Or just nair in general. It can beat a lot of his moves if timed correctly.
I agree with just about everything.
I just think that turnips can still be useful to tease him into throwing out a move and then punishing his lag, but I feel that one can rarely pull one safely, so I don't use them much either apart from edgeguarding. If you are great at turnip snipes, hitting him right after his down b is a great thing (since turnip hits offstage usually kill Facon and his movement is 100% "predictable" while doing his down b.
Jab also needs to be mentioned for the amazing jab reset. It has fixed knockback and CFs weight keeps him below the launch power where he would gain the option to roll; so if you can get a jab on a Falcon lying on the floor, you are forcing a neutral getup.
@nair beating stuff: it will so often beat the downair. Doesn't look like it, but Falcons downair has absolutely **** hitboxes, so you can hit him out of it most of the time.
Edgeguards: I do the turnip throwing down thingy too, mostly because the CF I get to play the most is amazing at edgetechs, so I'd rather not give him the chance to do so lol (especially since his timing is so good he gets the up b right after the techjump which is almost a guaranteed "YES"). Other than that, there's so many aerials to mix up between to make teching harder for him (Fair is the easiest to tech / for you to whiff, but gets a kill far earlier than others, bair / nair usually take a few rounds of him coming back up again. Downairing him spacies recovery style can also work). Also be ready to edgehog if he wants to sweetspot and goes so low he can't make it back on the stage.
I just think that turnips can still be useful to tease him into throwing out a move and then punishing his lag, but I feel that one can rarely pull one safely, so I don't use them much either apart from edgeguarding. If you are great at turnip snipes, hitting him right after his down b is a great thing (since turnip hits offstage usually kill Facon and his movement is 100% "predictable" while doing his down b.
Jab also needs to be mentioned for the amazing jab reset. It has fixed knockback and CFs weight keeps him below the launch power where he would gain the option to roll; so if you can get a jab on a Falcon lying on the floor, you are forcing a neutral getup.
@nair beating stuff: it will so often beat the downair. Doesn't look like it, but Falcons downair has absolutely **** hitboxes, so you can hit him out of it most of the time.
Edgeguards: I do the turnip throwing down thingy too, mostly because the CF I get to play the most is amazing at edgetechs, so I'd rather not give him the chance to do so lol (especially since his timing is so good he gets the up b right after the techjump which is almost a guaranteed "YES"). Other than that, there's so many aerials to mix up between to make teching harder for him (Fair is the easiest to tech / for you to whiff, but gets a kill far earlier than others, bair / nair usually take a few rounds of him coming back up again. Downairing him spacies recovery style can also work). Also be ready to edgehog if he wants to sweetspot and goes so low he can't make it back on the stage.
