VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Brookman]

So i was playing peach vs. fox the other day and I started floating backwards to use the high part of her nair vs. fox's nair. **** worked like a charm.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

ArcNatural made me work that into my game recently. It's really good b/c fox tries to jump at her float and knock her out of her float but you can just stuff it. i find it normally trades, though, but it's a winning trade for peach. it's good at getting foxes who keep jumping at your float off you.

 

[Wake]

So i was playing peach vs. fox the other day and I started floating backwards to use the high part of her nair vs. fox's nair. **** worked like a charm.

Funny, I've never even thought of doing that before.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

okokok
drillshiney fox, what do you do (curse you Brookman)
I lost a ****ton of friendlies in the mu because of random dairs to shine usmash. taking 30 damage every time you get hit is not my idea of a good time, nor is dying at 90. I try to establish myself at "the height" and stuff his jump with nair/bair but it's too inconsistent and ends up being a losing trade over the course of the stock.
idk how to challenge it, bait it, or punish it. Halp.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

shieldgrab it? even on a perfect dair->shine there is a -8 advantage that you can grab every time if you just learn the timing.

otherwise, just try to trade with the dair or out space it. It has the exact same hitbox as falco's dair if you want a spacing reference point.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

See, new england has a penchant for baiting shieldgrabs, so I'm in the habit of doing nair oos basically every time. Also, I have the most trouble when I'm already floating and then daired. I really try to trade but I only end up getting it maybe 1 time out of 5. I know I could work on doing that more often, but I gotta work on it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well if you are in the air, you could DI out of the dair and punish since there is no lag on landing kinda like if you get shined in the air.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

And I can just break his shield by doing fc nair pillars.

Idk, I don't see myself doing that, but I'll definitely try it. I might try just playing it closer to the ground and trying to bait the FH to punish. I'll be creative :3

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah you gotta do your own thing, i was just trying to help you brain storm

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I totally appreciate it <3
Idk, i always have this feeling as a peach main that I can just dsmash my problems away. If the solution is that complicated, then i guess I'll take it.

 

[Wake]

hahaha dsmash your problems away huh? I wish it worked that way. -________-

 

[The Irish Mafia]

you know what i mean. we're blessed in many ways, we have high priority aerials and a really fast nair, we have chaingrabs, we have one of the best crouchcancels in the game, and we have a dsmash that can hit for 60 if they hold the wrong direction. Peach can turn the direction of a stock pretty quickly and it's easy to resort to panic methods of gaining control. I was referring to how i'm trying to apply these methods to a problem that's a little more complicated than the ones it normally solves.

 

[Wake]

ha I know I know. I love playing Peach. Fox can make a lot of situations complicated...

 

[eet]

funfact, It is a common misconception that attacks are given priority independent of the damage they deal - for example, many people consider Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost to have "low priority". However, such attacks simply seem to have "high" or "low" priority relative to the favorability of their hitboxes - attacks with small or late hitboxes often appear to get "out-prioritised" by other attacks, when, in reality, the wielders of these hitboxes are often hit by their opponents' before they are able to connect with them. Also, Different rules apply to the hitboxes of normal aerial attacks. When a normal aerial attack hitbox overlaps that of a normal ground attack or another normal aerial, the attacks cannot collide or clash and the law of high and low priority does not apply. If an overlap between the hitboxes of two such attacks occurs, both will persist, irrespective of each other, and will damage their foes if they contact them. Copy pasta'd from http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Priority

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I remember reading something to the same tune stating that priority basically didn't exist. We play a very complicated game with many variables, which is one of the (thousands of) reasons I love it so.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

While air "priority" isn't priority in the same sense that ground moves have in terms of clanking and winning, there is a clear ranking of which moves trade, beat and lose to others. Its very dynamic, but i think most players have a list in their head of "ok, this beats this, these moves trade in this spacing, ect."

 

[MacD]

it's a system of hitboxes and hurtboxes

if your hitbox goes over their hurtbox, then you hit them

so basically, priority is what we call when moves that beat out other moves, peach's fair is known to have high priority because it's one giant hitbox with no hurtbox, so it beats out a lot other moves

i hope this is understandable cause i'm only like half paying attention and only half can explain this in short form of words, easier for me to explain when talking and stuff

 

[Composeur]

But what about when two ground moves clank? I think Sveet has a point that some factors other than hit/hurtboxes are in play in that situation. Otherwise Peach should be able to slap through a fully charged beam-shot from Samus if she times it properly, right? (For all I know, she can, I guess.)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No its all based on hitboxes and hurtboxes, 100%. I'm not sure the exact properties of samus' charged shot, but aerials and projectiles have a different relationship. I know falcon's knee beats out a charge shot, similarly to how sheik's jab can beat a missle or basically any hitbox beats pills/missiles/ect. One thing to note, there are certain moves that DONT hit projectiles under any circumstances, such as marth's neutral b and side b. Try neutral-bing doc's pill and the pill will go through the sword and hit marth.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

also, turnips can bounce off and occasionally break missles, but go right through the charge shot (iirc)
and there's the normal jankyness of being able to clang with basically any of marths ground moves via well timed jabs and dash attacks

 

[Rosedemon]

This one time when I was playing Darrell, ALL of my turnips were destroying his missiles and I didnt know why. It made that matchup so much easier.

 

[Wake]

also, turnips can bounce off and occasionally break missles, but go right through the charge shot (iirc)
and there's the normal jankyness of being able to clang with basically any of marths ground moves via well timed jabs and dash attacks

Yeah I was just gonna mention how Peach can clang with so many of Marth's moves. Jab, dash attack, ftilt, dtilt... it's hilarious.

 

[DarrellD]

This one time when I was playing Darrell, ALL of my turnips were destroying his missiles and I didnt know why. It made that matchup so much easier.

10 's turnips are gross

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I wanna know if different throws affect the turnips ability to break the missile. Like, if air/ground/smash throws make them more or less able, or if the distance changes it.
wake, you like the marth mu, right? try using random attacks to just counter his stuff. If you get a grip on what works vs what and what you can do after, it becomes really useful.

 

[Wake]

I wanna know if different throws affect the turnips ability to break the missile. Like, if air/ground/smash throws make them more or less able, or if the distance changes it.
wake, you like the marth mu, right? try using random attacks to just counter his stuff. If you get a grip on what works vs what and what you can do after, it becomes really useful.

Yeah I love the Marth MU. Yeah it definitely does.

 

[DoH]

Wtf you can shield grab a drill?

 

[Brookman]

hell ya. I posted about this a while ago in the fox forum and people were like "naaah"

 

[MacD]

you can also grab between peach's 1st and 2nd jab, but being possible and actually happening is rare, unless people learn some frame perfection, but even then, with all the different timings and possibilities, it'd be pretty damn hard

cause at least in street fighter/marvel/etc, the combos/timings are always going to be the same. this means getting frame perfect things down would be a little easier just being it's only one timing you have to learn (or a few against different characters i think)

 

[Brookman]

no, its really not as hard as you think it is mac. Just mash A when they are drilling on your shield.

 

[MacD]

That sounds totally plausible... *rolls eyes*

-Alan

 

[DoH]

That sounds a lot easier than trying to powershield downsmash

 

[darkatma]

Hey guys I finally got some tourney peach matches recorded =]
I'll be looking for critique soon, once they're up

 

[eet]

1. Use downsmash.

 

[darkatma]

No its all based on hitboxes and hurtboxes, 100%. I'm not sure the exact properties of samus' charged shot, but aerials and projectiles have a different relationship. I know falcon's knee beats out a charge shot, similarly to how sheik's jab can beat a missle or basically any hitbox beats pills/missiles/ect. One thing to note, there are certain moves that DONT hit projectiles under any circumstances, such as marth's neutral b and side b. Try neutral-bing doc's pill and the pill will go through the sword and hit marth.

you dont know enough about the game lol

try marth's side b on link's bombs.



Also at eet:
Darn I do it wrong already. As a peach I use very little downsmash lol

 

[DoH]

http://www.justin.tv/redd91/b/288291984

Here's some epic cheating for you at minute 16. A beam sword, bomb, and 2 stitches in one match.

 

[Brookman]

That sounds totally plausible... *rolls eyes*

-Alan

Do continue being mediocre.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

brookman's right, that's how I shieldgrab dair
i just assumed the strangely spread stun made it so I could only grab on the first frame, I didn't know it actually was effective or anything

 

[baka4moé]

just making sure, we're talking about fox right? and all we have to do is mash A in our shields? even if the fox is perfect about lcanceling and shining and stuff?

 

[The Irish Mafia]

yupyupyup :3

 

[Brookman]

You may want to get accustomed to actually timing the grab (if you aren't inputting the A button every frame)