Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[fogbadge]

I don’t get wanting Andy Advance Wars in Smash because there are so many characters in the series that aren’t just “generic white boy protagonist” and can do basically exactly the same thing as him moveset wise since they can summon infantry too.

I believe it’s due to him being the protagonist of the first game released in the west

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I believe it’s due to him being the protagonist of the first game released in the west

I’m aware of why he’s the most popular. Even then though, most of the gameplay is controlling soldiers on a grid without seeing who you’re playing as that much and with a cast as rich as Advance Wars I don’t the protagonist should be the only one people consider especially when other characters are playable

 

[fogbadge]

I’m aware of why he’s the most popular. Even then though, most of the gameplay is controlling soldiers on a grid without seeing who you’re playing as that much and with a cast as rich as Advance Wars I don’t the protagonist should be the only one people consider especially when other characters are playable

well chock it up to the idea of people thinking the protagonist comes first then

 

[Louie G.]

Is Sami not by far the most popular Advance Wars character? She’s typically the first one brought up in random roster hypotheticals, forum games and polls and whatnot. I think if anything when people default to Andy it’s usually following the conventions of Smash itself, most of the time Smash opts for the closest thing it can to a main protagonist. But AW is a series where many people seem to have already decided the posterboy is not their ideal.

I don’t have any overwhelming preference, but I like Andy just fine. I think it would be fun to hit people with a wrench, and he’s closely associated with the tank which I’d be curious to know how they would implement. Probably just a FS but who knows.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think if it came down it, James Bond would be a more interesting non-video game character selection than Goku. Even beyond the consideration of the former for Smash at one point, the sheer number of gadgets included from his various titles could make for a generally wild fighter. I'll fully admit to this is partially stemming from by preference of 007 media vs Dragon Ball, but I just think there's more cool places you can go with Bond.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think if it came down it, James Bond would be a more interesting non-video game character selection than Goku. Even beyond the consideration of the former for Smash at one point, the sheer number of gadgets included from his various titles could make for a generally wild fighter. I'll fully admit to this is partially stemming from by preference of 007 media vs Dragon Ball, but I just think there's more cool places you can go with Bond.

I've always been saying for awhile that while I'm firmly against non-VG characters in Smash, James Bond is the one I'd be willing to make an exception for, because of just how much of a noteworthy game GoldenEye 007 is for Rare, Nintendo and the N64.

Like, ****ing hell, it's already technically got representation in Smash before!

 

[fogbadge]

I think if it came down it, James Bond would be a more interesting non-video game character selection than Goku. Even beyond the consideration of the former for Smash at one point, the sheer number of gadgets included from his various titles could make for a generally wild fighter. I'll fully admit to this is partially stemming from by preference of 007 media vs Dragon Ball, but I just think there's more cool places you can go with Bond.

whose face would you go with?

 

[Dinoman96]

whose face would you go with?

Prolly Pierce Brosnan because that's the one who appears in GoldenEye.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

whose face would you go with?

Realistically you'd either have to go with a generic version given the cost of the likeness rights for the various actors, or just sticking with Brosnan given the Goldeneye connection.

 

[Arcadenik]

I’m aware of why he’s the most popular. Even then though, most of the gameplay is controlling soldiers on a grid without seeing who you’re playing as that much and with a cast as rich as Advance Wars I don’t the protagonist should be the only one people consider especially when other characters are playable

That reminds me. My idea for Advance Wars rep in Smash was a character called “Commanding Officer”.

It’s Andy (or Sami or Max or Nell of Orange Star or Olaf of Blue Moon or Eagle of Green Earth or Sonia of Yellow/Gold Comet or Sturm of Black Hole) as the Pokémon Trainer in the background in his or her tank. The playable characters are the Infantry unit and the Tank unit. The Commanding Officer would issue orders and the soldiers would follow orders.

What would make Commanding Officer unique is that you are playing as two characters (units) at once. It’s not like Ice Climbers or Rosalina & Luma or Duck Hunt. While you are controlling as one unit, the other unit acts as an Assist Trophy. Down+B to switch controls between Infantry and Tank units.

Commanding Officer loses a stock when the controlled unit loses. If you are playing as Infantry and you lose Infantry, you lose a stock. If you are playing as Tank and you lose Tank, you lose a stock.

Commanding Officer doesn’t lose a stock when the Assist Trophy unit loses. When the Assist Trophy unit is gone, Commanding Officer will send in another Assist Trophy unit of the same unit type. If you are playing as Infantry and you lose Tank, you will get another Tank... and if you are playing as Tank and you lose Infantry, you will get another Infantry.

Infantry unit plays like a normal playable fighter. Tank unit has stamina and plays like a miniature version of the Landmaster.

 

[Lenidem]

Although GoldenEye was incredibly good (I'm playing it on my old N64 at he moment), if I could choose between James Bond and Joanna Dark, I would pick the latter every time.

 

[MasterCheef]

honestly the west really got the short end of the stick with almost no meaningful representation.

I have a hard time counting Steve because he is globally popular.

i hope Halo is able to recover enough to get , Master Chief , in , or the Switch 2 gets a Fallout game to include , Vault Boy

 

[Louie G.]

honestly the west really got the short end of the stick with almost no meaningful representation.

Hard disagree, and here's why.

Smash Ultimate was the first game in the series to bring in characters from western studios. Prior to this, the extent of this representation was Rayman and Bit Trip Runner trophies. I might be forgetting some other table scraps, but it was practically nothing.

Then we get to Smash Ultimate. Just off the top of my head, we have...
Banjo & Kazooie and Steve as playable characters, in our first roster collaboration with a major western studio
Shovel Knight as an Assist Trophy
Undertale, Cuphead, DOOM, Skyrim, Shantae, Rabbids, Assassin's Creed, Fallout represented through Mii Costumes
(with Megalovania, Floral Fury and Burning Town as music tracks)
Rayman, Shovel Knight and Shantae spirit battles in base game. Cuphead, Warframe and Hades spirits added later.

If we wanna split hairs too, we have several Nintendo characters designed by western studios. - two of which were added in Smash Ultimate.

This is such a massive growth between games, it's ridiculous. Clearly a LOT of focus was given toward letting western properties get in on the fun, and with how well much of this has went over I imagine it's just the beginning. You need to view this less compared to all the Japanese content, which is obviously always going to have more, and rather judge how drastically we've improved on this area through the course of Ultimate's lifespan. Give it a little time, it would have been unreasonable to expect a large majority of third parties be overseas collaboration in the first game we've touched on it at all.

Worth acknowledging too, the roster caters heavily to western taste on the whole. Metroid is not nearly as popular over there, and Sakurai has stated that the addition of Ridley and Dark Samus were responses to western outcry. Little Mac and Duck Hunt are classic Nintendo icons here, but less so in Japan where several were left scratching their heads. Note that characters like Takamaru were outright skipped due to a lack of notoriety worldwide, but this was hardly an issue with characters more dominantly known in the west. Our voices have been heard and answered.

 

[MasterCheef]

Hard disagree, and here's why.

.
lots of fair points.

However it does not feel like we got much when their , move-sets designs , are quite lacking , & un-fun

 

[fogbadge]

honestly the west really got the short end of the stick with almost no meaningful representation.

I have a hard time counting Steve because he is globally popular.

i hope Halo is able to recover enough to get , Master Chief , in , or the Switch 2 gets a Fallout game to include , Vault Boy

sounds like it was a good thing after all

 

[Louie G.]

On fan rosters, I always see people updating every Zelda character to their most recent incarnation (TOTK). I disagree with this approach and I think Ultimate pretty much nailed it. BOTW Link, ALTP / ALBW Zelda, OOT Ganondorf... that's a great spread of representation across the whole series, and in my opinion hones in on their best selves. Smash's Zelda is my absolute favorite and I hope that they've landed on a version of the character they want to stick with.

I will acknowledge though, TOTK Ganondorf is probably the best shot we have at a legitimate rework of the character and as such I'm not insisting that we hold back on that. I would hope that we may be able to have at least one of his other forms as an alternate costume, but I digress and I'm unsure if that would line up that well. My personal preference is warlock OOT Ganon but Samurai Ganon is pretty dope too.

BOTW Link ought to stay, particularly as long as one of his younger incarnations with the more iconic green tunic is here. I like his BOTW design and I recognize that it has become iconic in its own right, but I think the classic depiction of Link needs to be prominently represented in some fashion too. And on a personal level, the tunic of the wild is just a little odd looking to me. Maybe it's the shorts. In general I think Link is in a decent spot in Ultimate, under the previous condition. I'm not especially in favor of updating his moveset that much more, I'm not sure how well I think Link's new powers would suit his playstyle in Smash or his general essence. While BOTW felt like a more natural evolution for the character, enhancing his existing specials without abandoning their identity, Link being able to magically lift his opponents or phase through platforms does not. We should add Rauru if we want to do that.

Zelda should remain as is, though. At least in my opinion. I know she's got plenty of material for a rework too, but I think it's decidedly less pressing than Ganondorf and making only minor moveset alterations while transitioning over to her new design neglects how her dress informs her animations currently. I like that Smash kind of has its own original Zelda based off her most classic appearance and I think that's the way to go.

 

[Perkilator]

Metal Sonic is far too different from the hedgehog he’s based on to reasonably be a Sonic Echo. Say what you will about Shadow, but at least he has more merit to be a Sonic Echo.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Metal Sonic is far too different from the hedgehog he’s based on to reasonably be a Sonic Echo. Say what you will about Shadow, but at least he has more merit to be a Sonic Echo.

How do you figure when Metal has been an exact gameplay copy in the past (Sonic Adventure DX, Sonic 4 Episode Metal, Sonic Adventure 2 on Dreamcast since he functioned just like Shadow, who is already Echoing Sonic) and his entire "gimmick" is replicating other people's skills, Sonic included?

Both Shadow and Metal have equal merit as Echos, and both have equal merit as non-Echos.

 

[Lenidem]

Metal Sonic is far too different from the hedgehog he’s based on to reasonably be a Sonic Echo. Say what you will about Shadow, but at least he has more merit to be a Sonic Echo.

Then Dark Samus should not be an Echo either.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Continuing on my take about "WOL is good (except for the parts people actually like)", Kirby being chosen as the WOL survivor because "he would canoncially be able to" is so, so lame. Don't get me wrong, Kirby has a lot of merit as the starter character from a gameplay perspecitve (easy character to learn, copies help players transition to using other characters), and creator bias is valid, but using Death Battle logic in storytelling sucks, even for something extensively storyless. Feels weirdly emblematic of the Namco-era Smash creative process, where everything seems to be based on numbers and objective research instead of just what'd be cool, silly, or meaningful.

I think "Kirby should be the survivor because he's got cool powers", "Kirby should be the survivor because he's a baby and that's funny" or "Kirby should be the survivor because HAL made the first Smash games" would be valid, but not "Kirby would be the survivor because we did extensive research into his powers and figured out that he's superior to everyone else."

 

[Louie G.]

I think "Kirby should be the survivor because he's got cool powers", "Kirby should be the survivor because he's a baby and that's funny" or "Kirby should be the survivor because HAL made the first Smash games" would be valid, but not "Kirby would be the survivor because we did extensive research into his powers and figured out that he's superior to everyone else."

I mean, it's even simpler than that right? Kirby is one of the easiest characters in the game to pick up and play, and he's a recognizable character who has been here from the beginning. And then Mario is unlockable within minutes of starting WOL. So you've got a choice between Mario and Kirby practically out the gate, a precedent set as early as Smash 64's intro and extended further by Subspace. I feel like everyone overthinks this, it doesn't take a whole lot to justify it.

And then I guess I dunno, a warp star is more justifiable as an escape route than a warp pipe? You can go back and forth on Mario and Kirby but beyond that nobody really even makes sense to cast such a prominent spotlight onto or present as a defacto starter character. These are the two characters explicitly designed with that accessibility in mind. Every other point of discussion about this is just splitting hairs about whether or not Sonic would totally actually survive.

 

[Mamboo07]

a warp star is more justifiable as an escape route than a warp pipe?

This makes me imagine a scene if Luigi was during Galeem's slaughter.

Jumping into a pipe expecting to be safe only for one of the light beams to follow down there vaporizing him.

 

[FazDude]

This makes me imagine a scene if Luigi was during Galeem's slaughter.

Jumping into a pipe expecting to be safe only for one of the light beams to follow down there vaporizing him.

I love this visual - Just a beam snaking down the pipe and also making the "doo-doo-doo" noise as it goes down.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I mean, it's even simpler than that right? Kirby is one of the easiest characters in the game to pick up and play, and he's a recognizable character who has been here from the beginning. And then Mario is unlockable within minutes of starting WOL. So you've got a choice between Mario and Kirby practically out the gate, a precedent set as early as Smash 64's intro and extended further by Subspace. I feel like everyone overthinks this, it doesn't take a whole lot to justify it.

And then I guess I dunno, a warp star is more justifiable as an escape route than a warp pipe? You can go back and forth on Mario and Kirby but beyond that nobody really even makes sense to cast such a prominent spotlight onto or present as a defacto starter character. These are the two characters explicitly designed with that accessibility in mind. Every other point of discussion about this is just splitting hairs about whether or not Sonic would totally actually survive.

I am aware of the accessibility point, and explicitly stated that it was a valid reason - this is the point I am criticising.

"We needed a solid, convincing reason for why said character could outrun Galeem," Sakurai wrote. "All fighters possessing 'normal' abilities were immediately disqualified. Given that its assault enveloped the ends of the galaxy, only a vehicle that could defy the laws of physics would work. Even short-distance teleportation wouldn’t be enough. Some of you may have forgotten, but Kirby’s Warp Star has been able to, y’know, warp since his very first game. That alone made him a pretty solid contender. The only other two fighters that could have survived would have been Bayonetta or Palutena."

From here: https://www.gameinformer.com/2018/1...-why-only-kirby-survived-the-opening-cutscene

 

[Lenidem]

I am aware of the accessibility point, and explicitly stated that it was a valid reason - this is the point I am criticising.

From here: https://www.gameinformer.com/2018/1...-why-only-kirby-survived-the-opening-cutscene

"We need a very serious and lore-accurate reason for our bull****, over-the-top story involving non-canonical versions of characters, lots of them being cartoony and nonsensical to begin with..."

Also, Zelda could have sent everyone into the Sacred Realm, where they would have been safe - unless the bull**** magical beams can follow people through dimensions, of course. Beams that are so dreadful that they engulf the whole galaxy in a matter of moments, and at the same time, can be deflected by swords and shields, by the way...

Yeah, thanks of lot for the clarification, Sakurai...

 

[Louie G.]

Maybe it's just because I'm personally a bit detached from Pokemon, but I think people put way too much stock on which generation this or that Pokemon is from. Like someone suggesting Eevee or Gengar and being met with "no more Gen 1 / Kanto". What does it really matter at this point? If a Pokemon has remained popular and prominent within the series for 20 years, isn't that perfect grounds to be a good choice? In any other series it would be, at least. In my eyes, personally, the generation and region a Pokemon is from stops being relevant pretty much the moment their game is no longer the hot new one.

Pokemon hasn't received a new Kanto 'mon in Smash since Brawl and Pokemon Trainer. I would say it's quite unlikely it will ever get one again, just by nature of the way Pokemon representation in Smash continues to build upon itself with the latest content. But I'm recognizing that through these hypotheticals, some genuinely iconic and "deserving" by any other metric characters get tossed aside exclusively because of what they arbitrarily represent and no other reason. I dunno, am I the weird one for not caring? I understand that Gen 1 Pokemon felt very oversaturated in the main series for some time, I think this feels like less of an issue now (?), but surely there's some correlation there with simply being some of the most consistently popular and relevant names in the series.

 

[Perkilator]

I think I'm starting to want more oddball picks for Smash in the future (alongside the more requested characters I want, of course) or at least more relatively lesser-known characters. Now that we're free from the burden of EiH, I think we should embrace, to quote another user:

Have a few Powdered Toast Mans with the horde of SpongeBobs, y'know?

 

[Perkilator]

When it comes to Smash remixes, musical variety should come before the pace of a fight.

 

[fogbadge]

I do feel there’s a distinct possibility that we’ll get more splatoon fighters. But I do think that there’s a chance they won’t have their signature weapons. You know Callie without a roller, Marie without a charger, Pearl without dualies, Marina without a brella etc

 

[Perkilator]

While I'd be happy to see Meowscarada or Tinkaton, I think people should also give some support to Gholdengo since it's Pokémon #1,000.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

While I know many would see it as a waste of resources, I'd love just more mini games in Smash. Take that core engine and use it for all sorts of out there little modes between fights. It'd actually be an ideal means for asymmetrical modes where you could control characters otherwise too impractical for SSB; give me a match where I control a Metal Gear against various fighters.

While it would be bittersweet for many fans, in general having controllable characters that otherwise aren't fighters for such games could be a really interesting way of including them.

 

[Baysha]

While it would be bittersweet for many fans, in general having controllable characters that otherwise aren't fighters for such games could be a really interesting way of including them.

What if eliminated players could control assist trophies or something? It'd be a neat way of having them still play instead of just waiting for the other players to finish.

 

[RileyXY1]

I straight up don't even want a new Pokémon character at all.

 

[Laniv]

From a gameplay perspective, a second Punch-Out!! character would be great.

 

[Mamboo07]

From a gameplay perspective, a second Punch-Out!! character would be great.

My pick would be Dr Louis himself.

(Using the bike, boxing ring ropes to launch himself, and chocolate eating taunt)

 

[FazDude]

My two picks for a Punch-Out!! rep are Mr. Sandman and Aran Ryan - The latter would be so much fun to play.

 

[Mamboo07]

Aran Ryan - The latter would be so much fun to play.

This dirty cheater would be Smash's first flail user, I think?

Cause... that boxing glove he had.

(Swinging around something on a chain/rope)

 

[Perkilator]

Quoting from the next Smash thread:

NGL, I kind of get sad when people say they’d rather play as a monster than a human character when talking about Resident Evil. Don’t get me wrong, Nemesis is cool, but that kind of mindset just seems to me like narrowing the scope when Resident Evil has plenty of potentially fun Smash candidates.

 

[The SafeKeeper]

I straight up don't even want a new Pokémon character at all.

I don't think that's odd at all. A lot of people seem to be relatively lukewarm when it comes to the idea of more Pokémon newcomers. It probably doesn't help that they've been incredibly predictable since Brawl as they're always one of the starters or one of the five mons Game Freak decides to show blatant favouritism to each generation.

If they chose something really random like Weavile or Xatu, I'd actually start caring about them again.

 

[UserKev]

Sans as a Newcomer suggestion honestly makes me loathe him. I still believe we need Bomberman, Rayman, Prince of Persia, Ezio etc checked off before he's slotted. Sans is such a shoved character. I really don't want to see him until enough time has passed.