Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Ze Diglett]

When it comes to recency picks, they actually make sense beyond "yeah, they're recent."

The thing is? Smash is an absolute advertisement. What does that also mean? A lot of newcomers will make people interested in their series. How does that matter? It means that if you want to play as the character in their home game, you need to be able to purchase said game in some way. This also means if said game doesn't exist outside of emulator, the advertisement factor is more hurtful towards the company. So making sure to have some more recent picks instead of just older characters is very good for business in itself.

Think of it this way; Nintendo does not like people pirating games. Sakurai is well aware of these kind of things to begin with. Like, it's common knowledge. This means that by picking lots of characters with no releases, Nintendo now has to suddenly focus more on old products being released... but some aren't even in the West, now are they? They now have to spend time and money to translate some of these games. And some they can't throw on without licensing issues either or other various problems(Hint: They don't fully own a lot of games on their systems. Certain rights, even for a Nintendo exclusive, are tied to another person. It's not a coincidence Mother 3 isn't in English yet. There's a lot they need to figure out if they ever want to re-release it. EarthBound had similar issues too). Let's also note this is part of why it was even considered for Marth and Roy to not come overseas at the time, or for that matter, why Ness was deliberately kept in Brawl, as they couldn't bring Lucas in alone when they can't even have an overseas sale.

This doesn't adhere to every single character either. It's just more of an attempt to pick closely mostly recency picks to make sure business is kept well. Also, it should be noted that every single third party did have an active product in some way you could obtain, or was really easy to do without pirating. It may have also came out a bit later, but they still existed somewhere. They're all business decisions. A completely dead third party(you can't count B&K when you were able to play them on the latest Xbox in some way) is a very bad pick if nobody can make even a tad of money off of its advertisement factor. It seems cheeky, but it's the only way a crossover like this can be easily worked with.

I want more picks from older stuff too. And some aren't going to have that issue. Most Pokemon picks are clearly possible to get games related to said Pokemon without issues. Fire Emblem is not the case in the same way. Some characters do not have games out, and FE Heroes isn't exactly the best way to make it work. It's still an awesome thing to have exist(since it overall is a great way to show off tons of cool characters). Promotional Picks aren't understandably not that popular, but it overall is the best approach to make sure everything goes smoothly as much as possible. As long as pirating exists, what is basically a series that does high advertising absolutely will try to make sure said piracy is unlikely. In fact, the "timing of who gets in" is literally based around having an active product so said character at least advertises something you should be able to find. Respectively, a lot of other fighting games don't worry as much about that, outside of Crossovers, and they clearly are less advertisey than Smash inherently(they still do newer characters too, of course). It's just not the same effect since said games also rotate members and cut far more frequently than Smash dares to. That's kind of a big deal.

I'd be more willing to entertain this take if Nintendo's own preservation practices weren't infamously terrible. The amount of Nintendo games featured in Smash alone that you can't legally play unless you own them on their original hardware is kinda hilarious, especially if you count Spirit cameos. (Super Mario Sunshine, of all things, wasn't rereleased a single time prior to 2020 in a collection you can't buy anymore unless you're lucky enough to see it in a brick-and-mortar store.) I see this as yet another unfortunate symptom of the problem rather than a solution of some kind. If Nintendo doesn't want people pirating their old stuff, that's on them to make their retro library more accessible, not on a single game to only add characters from games you can currently buy. Not ditching VC for no reason would've been an easy fix in that regard.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I’m glad Marth is in smash and continues to be popular from that but if smash were to only have like 3 or 4 Fire Emblem characters in the next game he’s not as much of a priority as people say he should be. I see people arguing Marth should be the one constant fire emblem character and I disagree. I don’t think he’s necessarily “the main guy” because he was the protagonist of the first game.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I see this as yet another unfortunate symptom of the problem rather than a solution of some kind. If Nintendo doesn't want people pirating their old stuff, that's on them to make their retro library more accessible, not on a single game to only add characters from games you can currently buy. Not ditching VC for no reason would've been an easy fix in that regard.

I didn't really read Scalesworth's post as necessarily endorsing Smash's attitude towards modern/retro disparity, but yes, this is what I was thinking about the post.

 

[Perkilator]

Quoting from the next Smash thread:

I've been thinking about the conversation regarding Min Min when it comes to faithfulness, and then I thought...yeah, her faithfulness was kind of to a fault. So I decided to redesign her moveset to be relatively simpler but still unique in its own right.

Spoiler

Intro: Min Min jumps onto the stage while corkscrewing, after which she assumes both the Gai Bù and then the Jin Ji Du Li upon landing.

Stance/Idle 1: Her idle stance from ARMS.
Idle 2: Min Min hops on both feet and briefly brandishes her left arm above her whilst her other arm is held behind her.
Idle 3: Min Min raises her left arm and lowers it in front of herself in a fighting stance.

Notable Palette Swaps

1. “Up” colors (default)
2. “Right” colors (cyan)
3. “Down” colors (red)
4. “Left” colors (yellow)
5. Spring Man (red/blue)
6. Ribbon Girl (pink)
7. Ninjara (blue)
8. Twintelle (white)

Walk: Her walk animation from ARMS.
Dash: Min Min dashes with both ARMS flailing behind her.
Damage: Her damage animation from ARMS.
Jump: Her jump animation from ARMS.
Crouch: Min Min assumes the Pu Bu, a crouching stance.

Fighter Ability: ARMS
While her left arm always uses the Dragon ARMS, Min Min’s right arm can be equipped with three different types of ARMS

• Megawatt (default): The strongest but also the slowest
• Dragon: The most balanced in power and speed
• Ramram: The quickest but the actual arm doesn’t go far, instead firing the Ramram like a typical projectile

Normal Attacks
Jab: A mid-level roundhouse kick (2%), followed by a legsweep (2%), finishing with a high-level roundhouse kick (6%, small knockback). Holding A follows up with a flurry of kicks (.5% each hit).
Forward+A: A horizontal spin kick (8%, small knockback)
Up+A: A handstand version of the aú aberto (7%, small knockback)
Down+A: A baseball slide (7%, small knockback)
Dash Attack: A flying kick (10%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: A sliding low-level roundhouse kick (9%, small knockback)
Get-Up Attack: A sweep kick (7%, small knockback)

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Min Min swings her right arm around herself in a downward circular motion (damage and knockback depends on the ARMS her right arm is equipped with)
Air Forward+A: An axe kick (13% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)
Air Back + A: A spin kick (10%, OK knockback)
Air Up+A: A bicycle kick (8%, small knockback)
Air Down+A: A dive kick (11%, OK knockback)

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: A powerful back kick that can be angled (18%, medium knockback)
Up+A: A handstand bicycle kick that can reflect projectiles (15%, OK knockback)
Down+A: A split kick (15% on each side, OK knockback)

Grab Game
Grab: Min Min stretches out both arms at once to grab the opponent.
Pummel: A knee strike (2%)
Forwards+Throw: Min Min punches the opponent with her left arm (10%, OK knockback)
Back+Throw: A German suplex (14%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Min Min backflip kicks into the air before swiping horizontally with both arms, launching the opponent at a diagonal downward angle (11% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)
Down+Throw: Min Min strikes the opponent with rapid kicks (8%, small knockback)

Special Moves
B : Dragon; Min Min fires a short burst of Dragon fire from her left arm, and unlike her game of origin, her left arm fires a normal fireball instead of a long beam (12%, OK knockback). When used in midair, Min Min instead swings her left arm around herself in a downward circular motion (12%, OK knockback). If Min Min attacks opponents with a throw, the Dragon on her left arm is empowered by 1.4x.
B + ← → : Right ARMS; Min Min punches forward with the ARMS on her right arm. Holding B charges the power of the attack, with a full charge giving you a different effect.

• The Megawatt’s charge increases the damage of the attack
• The Dragon’s charge adds an extra explosion at the end of the attack
• The Ramram’s charge increases the knockback of the attack

B + ↑ : ARMS Uppercut / ARMS Hook; on the ground, Min Min uses her left arm Dragon to charge an uppercut performed with her right arm. In midair, Min Min instead uses her left arm as a grappling hook.
B + ↓ : Change ARMS; Min Min switches between the Megawatt, Dragon and Ramram for her right arm.

Final Smash: ARMS Rush; Min Min fires an astonishing blast from her left arm, with a different effect depending on the ARMS equipped on her right arm.

• If her right arm is equipped with a Dragon, her left arm fires a fiery stream that only fires straight forward
• If her right arm is equipped with a Megawatt, her left arm fires an electrified beam that can be angled up or down
• If her right arm is equipped with a Ramram, her left arm fires a vortex of wind that deals no damage but instead pushes opponents away

Taunts
Up: Min Min performs a left-legged roundhouse kick followed by a right-legged side kick.
Side: Min Min performs the Jǐ and Àn movements from 24-form tai chi chuan, then assumes the Jin Ji Du Li stance.
Down: Min Min sways her ARMS in alternating circles before assuming the Tūn Bù.

Winposes
1: Min Min raises her left arms in the air, whilst simultaneously swaying her hips towards her right. Afterwards, she waves both her arms in alternating circles, and then assumes the Fú Hǔ Bù while saying "我愛拉麺！" ("I love ramen!").
2: Min Min performs a butterfly twist, followed by a right-legged wheel kick, followed by a left-legged roundhouse kick while saying "謝謝！" ("Thank you!").
3: Min Min performs a roundhouse kick before assuming the Chā Bù.

Applause: Min Min tries to clap with both Dragon ARMS.
Icon: The symbol used for the ARMS Grand Prix.
Boxing Ring Title: The Ramen Bomber
Star K.O.: https://youtu.be/q9bEvVPKZto?feature=shared&t=70
Victory Music: ARMS Grand Prix Official Theme Song
Kirby Hat: Min Min’s hair and hat.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Somewhat related to the conversation about preservation, but given the evidence that Nintendo archives so many things from their game development, if we're going to have Smash as a gaming celebration, then let's have one game really embrace the museum concept and just load up the game with all sorts of old art and concepts from previous SSB titles that didn't make to the final version. Konami and Digital Eclipse did wonderful things with the TMNT Cowabunga Collection's features, and it doesn't seem like that much of an ask to have Smash do something similar. And I don't care if it takes time and resources away from core gameplay a bit, little stuff like this just adds to the overall package of SSB.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth : If they really want to push Smash as more of a vehicle for advertising other games, they should make it so that it's a late console release celebrating thing on the console it's already on rather than an early console release essentially celebrating the previous console.

But that's not what I was getting at. It's that, due to it having an advertising effect, choices are being made that meshes much better with the actual product and helps the business side of things, while obviously not being only that. We still get many characters who aren't active at all, and sometimes not even their franchises are very active. It's not that often either, but it still happens.

Besides, that's completely ignoring how difficult it is to randomly have games always available. This has nothing to do with preservation(which is not what I was getting at). It's that characters are chosen more around active product due to making things much easier. Inactive product still absolutely happens, but it's harder to focus on. Besides that as well, it's also a lot easier to get a recent character out because they're from a game more known to a casual fanbase due to releasing not that long ago. A lot of deeper picks are also ones that aren't necessarily easy for the fanbase to recognize(which we are not the core one either, as it's the casual fanbase, who don't heavily debate, if at all, about Smash etc. They're just random players who play for the fun of it. This also means recent stuff is easier for them to recognize. Why does that matter? Because they're the main demographic, so naturally for business reasons, a lot of it will cater to the most likely ones to get easy product from). It's not just about product either, though. That's just part of it. If a character isn't interesting, they still don't get in. Ideas matter more than business. Pac-Man couldn't get into Brawl despite being asked for due to a lack of ideas at the time, and it's always got active product around to get easy sales.

Plus, it's pretty obvious advertising is pushed a bit more, especially during DLC, when they literally did so at times. B&K were made very clear if you want to play the series, go to Microsoft. Some were also at the time we got re-releases of 3rd party stuff(SNK in general, more Dragon Quest games, for instance). ARMS was given a boost to try and regain some of its popularity. It's not all of it either, but some is there.

 

[Quillion]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth : Yeah, I know that synergy between a Smash release and what's being released at the time matters. I also know there needs to be synergy between being an advertisement and just plain "being fun" rather than focusing on one or the other.

That's much of why I think focusing on the "marketing mainstays" over "recent faces" works for fighters. The "marketing mainstays" are still in prominence so that fans are aware of them AND they're typically side characters that are more interesting than the main characters.

 

[Perkilator]

While the Eggrobo is a fun enemy to fight in Smash Run, I never understood why it got in over more iconic Sonic enemies like Motobug and Egg Pawn. The latter especially, since Egg Pawns are known to wield plenty of weapons.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Of the immediate Jigglypuff evolution line, there is only one valid pick for a clone for Puff IMO, and that's Igglybuff - because Igglybuff, being a baby and all, exaggerates the main defining quality of Jigglypuff as a Smash inclusion, juxtaposition. Wigglytuff downplays it and Scream Tail elimnates it, which I both think would be kinda neat in a transformative way if Smash had better Pokemon rep, but with Pokemon having had such an oversaturation of cool in Smash, it'd be real lame to take one of the uncool ones and make it cool, even if Wiggly/Scream coexisted. I also think Igglybuff is the only valid replacement for Puff whatsoever, and that includes retroactive Smash 64 reworks.

 

[fogbadge]

I also think Igglybuff is the only valid replacement for Puff whatsoever, and that includes retroactive Smash 64 reworks.

i don't think the timing would work

 

[UserKev]

Not gonna call out names but I find some characters "pretentious" no matter how well known they are. Hate on Bugsy all you want but he'd actually be right at home in Smash. No matter how I shake it, some recent reveals have been giving me a "stiff" feeling.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Not gonna call out names but I find some characters "pretentious" no matter how well known they are. Hate on Bugsy all you want but he'd actually be right at home in Smash. No matter how I shake it, some recent reveals have been giving me a "stiff" feeling.

I have no real clue what you're talking about, but I guess I'll say that while I don't think a Smash character inclusion alone can be "pretentious" so to speak, I do think that - as I hope I've made clear by now - Smash's marketing, and branding, and story modes, and original content are... maybe not pretentious, but self-important and insecure. It feels like they're embarassed about making a silly, colourful kids' game, and are trying to cater to people who feel the same way instead of just embracing goofiness and fun. Absolutely the same vibes as edgy 90s US Nintendo ads.

 

[Perkilator]

Over time I’ve warmed up to the idea of Alear fully using the Emblems in their moveset…just not the Emblems based on characters who are already playable in Ultimate.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

Smash's menu design gets justifiably laughed at a lot, but I don't think people agnowledge enough how bad the layouts for stuff like rulesets, picking characters, and CPU's is. It's not normal for kids playing a kids game to not know how to select a character for the CPU to play as instead of just being random for example, and that's an experience that I feel like is almost universal with kids playing Smash. Like kids are dumb I get that, but man Smash doesn't make it easy.

 

[SnakeFighter64]

Characters should have to wait until they’re a few years or even a console generation old to get into smash to see if they’re truly beloved evergreen characters.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Characters should have to wait until they’re a few years or even a console generation old to get into smash to see if they’re truly beloved evergreen characters.

I agree, but not because of "iconic factor" necessarily, I think weird obscure picks are rad, but the only differences between a "shill pick" and a "weird obscure pick" are temporal - I think if they added say, Ever Oasis, now it'd be pretty cool, but if it was on UItimate at launch it would be really lame. I also think exceptions could be made for characters like Inkling.

I've certainly said this here before, but I also think this should go the inverse for indies, I don't see the point in indie rep if it's not to promote a small new game. Not opposed to legacy indies inherently, but they should take the back seat to the "shill pick" newbies, otherwise I don't think it's in the spirit of indies. There are potential problems with backlash towards those picks being directed towards their creators, but as I've said before many a time, the toxicity of Smash discourse is Nintendo's fault for how it markets Smash, and they can easily minimize it if they want to by scaling back the importance given to characters in marketing (which, from a realistic perspective, they wouldn't want to, but they also wouldn't want to do anything I've suggested in this post).

 

[SnakeFighter64]

Byleth, Sephiroth, and Pyra/Mythra should have been stage-less bonus fighters like Plant so we could have had more newcomers from new franchises in the actual pass.

 

[Opossum]

Characters should have to wait until they’re a few years or even a console generation old to get into smash to see if they’re truly beloved evergreen characters.

I see this stance a lot honestly, and I'm just left wondering what situations that currently exist this path is meant to avoid.

Pretty much the only character that you could reasonably argue jumped the gun only to end up relatively unpopular is Corrin. On a roster of 89 characters, that seems like more than a bit of an overcorrection. If you wanted to stretch it further, I guess there's Sheik? But even then, when taking in the context of her addition, she made sense, since she started as just a Zelda transformation.

Conversely, being from the 80s did nothing to make Piranha Plant a less controversial or unpopular addition.

 

[Perkilator]

Byleth, Sephiroth, and Pyra/Mythra should have been stage-less bonus fighters like Plant so we could have had more newcomers from new franchises in the actual pass.

Okay I can give you Pyra / Mythra and maybe Byleth but Sephiroth…considering what little content Final Fantasy had in base Ultimate, I think giving Sephiroth a Challenger Pack was the right call.

 

[SnakeFighter64]

I see this stance a lot honestly, and I'm just left wondering what situations that currently exist this path is meant to avoid.

Pretty much the only character that you could reasonably argue jumped the gun only to end up relatively unpopular is Corrin. On a roster of 89 characters, that seems like more than a bit of an overcorrection. If you wanted to stretch it further, I guess there's Sheik? But even then, when taking in the context of her addition, she made sense, since she started as just a Zelda transformation.

Conversely, being from the 80s did nothing to make Piranha Plant a less controversial or unpopular addition.

Byleth. Min Min. Pyra/Mythra. Greninja, Incineroar. Heck even Joker.

Okay I can give you Pyra / Mythra and maybe Byleth but Sephiroth…considering what little content Final Fantasy had in base Ultimate, I think giving Sephiroth a Challenger Pack was the right call.

He could have still come with Mii fighters, songs (released with the Mii fighter costumes or even as a separate pack) and a spirit event. But FF didn’t need more than one stage.

 

[Opossum]

Byleth. Min Min. Pyra/Mythra. Greninja, Incineroar. Heck even Joker.

He could have still come with Mii fighters, songs (released with the Mii fighter costumes or even as a separate pack) and a spirit event. But FF didn’t need more than one stage.

Byleth's only "crime" in this regard is not being one of Edelgard, Dimitri, or Claude. Three Houses is the most popular Fire Emblem game of all time and its characters are also just as popular.

Min Min is literally the most popular ARMS character, a new IP which sold over two million copies in its debut outing.

Pyra and Mythra come from the best selling entry in the Xenoblade series and were incredibly popular characters prior to their debut in Smash.

Persona 5 was a smash hit and Joker's live reveal at the Game Awards was met with uproarious applause. And then when the game came to Switch it borderline doubled its sales numbers.

Greninja ended up becoming one of the most popular Pokémon of all time casually, while Incineroar, though not reaching the same casual heights, became synonymous with the competitive scene, which shouldn't be overlooked.

Min Min, Joker, Pyra, and Mythra were all very popular BEFORE being picked to join the roster, and the ones above who weren't ended up being popular anyway (though in a more niche way for Incineroar). It's literally only Corrin who ended up a bit of a dud in comparison.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

He could have still come with Mii fighters, songs (released with the Mii fighter costumes or even as a separate pack) and a spirit event. But FF didn’t need more than one stage.

If you’re giving Sephy every other part of a challenger pack, why not a stage as well? Feels pretty arbitrary to me

 

[BritishGuy54]

Characters should have to wait until they’re a few years or even a console generation old to get into smash to see if they’re truly beloved evergreen characters.

I wonder what characters are eligible throughout the series then. I’ll give two answers: 3+ years and a console generation.

64, (1999):
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Maybe
(OOT): No?, No? (Due to OOT releasing on N64)
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Maybe
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, No

64’s cast was relatively timeless, bar the inclusion of the recent phenomenon that was Pokémon Gen 1.

Melee (2001):
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, No
(OOT): Yes, No?
: Yes, Yes
: No, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, No
: Yes, No
: Yes, Yes
: No, No (Roy appeared in Melee before his own game)
: Yes. Yes

Apart from the oddball being Roy, it seems Pokémon and Zelda had very contemporary picks at the time. And while Ganondorf may not be allowed yet under these rules, Ganon should be allowed.

Brawl (2008):
(TP): No, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: No, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: No?, No (lenience given due to Lucario appearing in Mystery of Mew a few months or so prior to Gen 4)
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes

Brawl leaned more into supporting characters, but even here you can see that there were plenty of contemporary picks at the time from Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and even Mother.

3DS/Wii U (2014-2016):
: No, No
: No, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: No, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes (Uprising redesign only)
: Yes, Yes
: No, No
: Yes, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: No, No
: Yes, No

Smash 4 did more of what Brawl did, while bringing in more retro and Wii characters.

Ultimate (2018-2021):
(BOTW): No, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: No, No
: Yes, Yes
: No, No
: Yes*, Yes* (only DQ11 might be barred)
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: No, No
: Yes, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, No
: Yes, Yes
: Yes, Yes

Overall, out of Ultimate’s roster the only ones I can say are NOT evergreen are maybe Incineroar and Min Min. And that’s a big maybe. We shouldn’t shun shill picks, because for many of them, that’s part of WHY they’re such iconic characters in the first place.

 

[Louie G.]

Byleth. Min Min. Pyra/Mythra. Greninja, Incineroar. Heck even Joker.

Most of these characters were received pretty well. Greninja in particular aged like fine wine. Pyra and Mythra were demonstrably very very popular before they were added, to a point where a Xeno 2 character (often Rex + Pyra, at the time) was one of the more popular first party candidates. Byleth and Min-Min's reception is a bit debatable, but even Incineroar became a pretty popular character. And at least Three Houses is the most popular game in its series, albeit this wasn't a known fact at the time Byleth was chosen to be added. ARMS wasn't too much of a slouch either, and people conveniently forget that it was once a pretty popular opinion that ARMS should get a character.

I guess the argument from that point forward is if they're so popular, why not just wait? Surely if they have the longevity to sustain it, then they'll still be popular by the next Smash. To which I say Sakurai is typically not developing these games with the next one in mind. More times than not, there's been no harm in striking while the iron is hot. And in Pokemon's case, it's kind of a lost cause to get hung up on it... of course we'll get new Pokemon every game, and those games will sell gangbusters guaranteed. It's not much of a gamble.

Contrary to popular belief though, Smash really doesn't do this all that often. Sure, Pokemon and Fire Emblem exist, but outside of that Smash usually sticks with pretty tried and true candidates, or those who have already displayed a great deal of popularity and promise. There's generally a sweet spot found between greater series significance and current day relevance, but people get too fixated on one or the other. And those who were added on a whim often become fan favorites. By all means, if we want to get angry at anyone it should probably be Roy and there's no bad blood toward him anymore.

 

[Baysha]

I think if it was to go in a COGH direction, Smash should add characters that were at least somewhat popular in their debut but not popular today. Not even just the recent ones, I'm talking about like the ones from every console generation as a way to show off what all of the gaming landscape was like throughout the ages instead of just the greatest hits.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Min Min and Pyra/Mythra were three years and four years old respectively when they were included. That's more than enough time to decide whether something is just a fad. And hey, both of them are still some of the most beloved characters in their franchises to this day.

This argument frustrates me because its obvious to anyone who really knows the characters that they aren't fads and that their fandoms are genuine. But people who aren't as familiar with them just assume they aren't because they're newer than what they like. It's a mental shortcut that celebrates ignorance instead of learning.

"Oh was Joker really that well liked?" Yes obviously! Did you not see how Persona 5 dominated gaming spaces in those years?

"Oh I'm not sure people actually like Pyra/Mythra." Have you talked to the Xenoblade fandom? They love those two (perhaps a little too much sometimes.)

Its just like when people try to say Fortnite is a fad. Or Undertale. Or Minecraft. Hell people were trying to say Minecraft was just a fad, the year Steve was revealed! He was more than 10 years old at that point. And this **** is old too. Ages ago, Pokemon was called a fad. Yes, Pokemon.

And I get it. A character getting in before they can even establish themselves is weird and confusing (Roy, Corrin). But people figure out what they like pretty quickly. It doesn't take ten years for people's love of a character to become legitimate. Two years is more than enough time for popularity to become solidified. Waiting an entire console generation to see if they're "actually popular" is condescending.

You want to know how long fads actually last?

LESS THAN A YEAR

I like older characters too. But it's really obvious when people are so stuck in the past, that they can't see what people are doing around them in the present.

Newer characters get this a lot. Back in the Brawl days, Ike, Lucario and Lucas got these kinds or arguments and people still love them. Back in the Smash 4 days, Robin, Greninja, Rosalina and Shulk got these kinds of arguments and people still love them. History will repeat itself again. Because people don't like new things just because they're new.

 

[StrangeKitten]

So by the few years logic, we should have gotten a gen V Pokemon in Smash 4, and a gen VI Pokemon in Ultimate? I feel like the timing for that works out for the worse.

Smash 4 came out in 2014. Yes, Greninja was very recent by comparison, but gen VI was still in full swing. The leap from sprites to 3D models was huge at the time, and well-received compared to how its reputation would later wane.

For Ultimate, it launched while gen VII was two years into its lifespan. Adding Greninja as a newcomer for Ultimate would have felt even more outdated than adding a gen V mon to Smash 4.

And neither mon suffered from being added to only become unpopular later. Greninja flat-out won a popularity poll and remains a favourite. Incineroar became infamous as a staple support mon in doubles, which is the official competitive format. Both featured more prominently in their respective era of the anime than the other starters did.

 

[SnakeFighter64]

I just don’t think the newest character from the newest game in Fire Emblem, Pokemon, and Xenoblade should automatically get in because they have all new casts every time. Other series don’t do that and they have plenty of fun characters that don’t get in because they’re not “the main character of the hottest new game”. And of course new thing is going to be popular. But when it’s not the new thing anymore 3 or 4 games down the line, is that protagonist or starter pokemon going to be as popular as they were in its heyday? Maybe, maybe not. But I think they should have to wait so we can find out first.

 

[Ze Diglett]

while Incineroar, though not reaching the same casual heights, became synonymous with the competitive scene, which shouldn't be overlooked.

To be fair, slapping Intimidate on a mon with otherwise middling stats will do that. Incineroar was made in a time when Game Freak were pretty obviously playing favorites with the starters, and they absolutely knew what they were doing giving him that. (Thankfully, they seem to have broken that curse as of recent with all three Gen 9 starters getting good hidden abilities, even if two of them don't have the stats to support them.)

Anyway, more to the current topic, I actually respect the decision to wait and add Inkling to Ultimate. They would've fit well enough as Smash 4 DLC since Splatoon did not take long to prove itself, but it demonstrates a level of reserved patience that absolutely bit them in the ass for not having when they added Corrin last game. If anything, the decision to add an ARMS character in Ultimate feels a little awkward by comparison since it, while a modest enough success for a new IP, saw nowhere near the immediate or lasting popularity of Splatoon despite launching on much more ubiquitous hardware.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

In hindsight, I don't mind Byleth too much in a vacuum, their character design's fine enough and they're easily the best functionally designed non-veteran DLC fighter, even if it would've been best to not do another sword lord protag - but, in a wider context, Smash making "we shall never deny a guest even the most ridiculous request" its entire modern identity but not taking into account that Byleth was a character people were actively dreading is, at best, shortsighted - though I don't think this is a problem with Byleth as much as a symptom of Namco Smash's systemic problems. The placement of Byleth at the end of the pass, when the most people would've bought it and wouldn't be able to say "oh, I don't like Byleth, I'll wait and buy individually", also seems a little bit sus to me. Byleth is absolutely also a victim of two of the biggest mistakes in Smash history: individual character trailers and EIH.

 

[Louie G.]

I just don’t think the newest character from the newest game in Fire Emblem, Pokemon, and Xenoblade should automatically get in because they have all new casts every time.

I agree, that's why I flat out don't think Alear will be playable and why I'm quite skeptical of Noah / Mio. Neither of these games have quite reached the level of popularity of its predecessors, and Three Houses / Xenoblade 2 continue to get discussion alongside them. A new Pokemon is probably mandated, I don't have much of an opinion on that because it feels like a waste of energy to feel any sort of way about.

Personally I think we need to wait before we start lumping Xenoblade into this. A lot of people want to add them to this rotating protagonist club but I'm not sure I'm ready to assume that. Maybe if they decide not to add a new Fire Emblem character they'd have less reservations about giving Xenoblade another go with Noah or Mio, but otherwise Rex / Pyra / Mythra were pretty organically popular requests outside of any expectation for its series to get special treatment.

If all three of these series get their most recent protagonists next game then I won't really refute it anymore, but for now I don't think either of Shulk or Pyra / Mythra constitute this kind of fearmongering... if you can even call it that, it feels a little reductive of the character options from Xeno 3 which I know people genuinely do want to see in the game, but you get what I mean. I agree with you on principle, no series should "automatically" get a new character simply for having a new game, but I don't think this trend is necessarily guaranteed to continue for all parties mentioned here.

 

[SharkLord]

I simply Do Not Care for Smash as a celebration of all of gaming, assuming the roster isn't a fresh start that doesn't focus on veterans. Gaming is too big to cover without a ton of licensing and the risk of leaving something out, and Smash itself is too Nintendo-centric to work as a proper "celebration" - For instance, characters like Pichu, Ike, or the Ice Climbers would not appear in a large-scope "celebration of gaming." And honestly? I think I prefer having room for more obscure, Nintendo-centric picks, even if they don't "deserve" to be in Smash. I'm fine with third-parties - Hell, most of my wants are third-parties - But I don't think Smash needs to be hyperfocused on representing every square inch of gaming.

More than anything, I think it's that I really don't care about who "deserves" to be in Smash. It's a crossover video game; It doesn't need to take itself that seriously. I'm easily pleased, so I'm just content to see whoever gets added and how fun they are to play

 

[Quillion]

I've been open about thinking air dodging is a bad mechanic for a while now, but crossposting what I put in this thread...

I now think all invincibility frame dodges are bad in knockback platform fighters, let alone Smash. Either they're highly punishable so you have little-to-no reason to use them, or they add a whole bunch of waiting to the game. And no, learning to frame trap doesn't make it any more fun to deal with.

Competitive or not, I'd be a lot happier if the genre takes the traditional fighter route and reserves i-frames to knockdowns and ledge options. Then replace rolling with wavedashing (maybe call it "step dashing"?), air dodging with air shielding and grabbing (or air dashing), and MAYBE spotdodging with a universal counter.

 

[Louie G.]

I've been thinking about this for a bit, but I believe a lot of people's critiques of Smash mischaracterization are kind of impractical and misguided. That isn't to say all of them are wrong - Olimar is still pretty weird, and hell I've got a few petty hang-ups myself with Zero Suit Samus. But in general there's something that needs to be understood about fighting game design.

Smash's basic gameplay does not allow for any sort of deep, nuanced or multifacted characterization. You need to convey the jist of how these characters act mostly through their animations and moveset. How would this character throw a punch? How would they block an attack? This essence is the reason why Smash can get so much mileage out of a dozen different punchy guys and swordfighters. But it's also led to this sort of misunderstanding from the community of what Smash Bros is aiming to achieve.

Sometimes in the process you get a "flanderized" version of a character, which tends to bother some people. Luigi, for example. I am personally a Smash Luigi apologist. I am fully on the wavelength of what they're going for with him and I don't think it's incredibly out of character... it's just that in a fighting game, you're often going to end up exaggerating those traits for the sake of a dynamic moveset. The crux of Luigi in Smash is that he fundamentally fights like Mario, but laying on his awkwardness and cowardice harder gives him a unique edge. When Luigi performs a F-Smash, he strikes you as if jabbing you in the side. When he has to do a low kick attack, instead of Mario's confident sweep he'll turn around and give you a little poke with his heel. I can understand the angle of being disappointed that Luigi is defined so heavily by these surface level character traits, but it's also what makes him stand out.

Shulk is one that I hear people nitpick sometimes, under the premise that the community misconstrues his character because in Smash he is simple minded and quippy. Or something. The main takeaway here is that nobody should really be using Smash as a textbook into each character's personality anyway. Especially from a game like Xenoblade, which is extremely story heavy. Shulk goes through such a range of emotion that is impossible to convey in Smash without something like Subspace again. But most characters have quips in Smash - it's about the fullest extent of real dialogue that the gameplay allows. Beyond that, characterization wise... to my understanding, Shulk is kind of a methodical geek. So his focus on the Monado Arts, switching around to your optimal stance in the heat of battle, does portray him as quite intelligent in my opinion. The other angle with this is someone like Robin - calculated and strategic, but through his dialogue he comes off as kind of a bore. At least this endears people to Shulk as a character with emotion. I'd rather the dynamic personality and silly quips.

Those are just a couple examples of why I think Smash's characterization is more justified than people give it credit for. You can only do so much within the confines of this gameplay and I think, with some glaring exceptions, they do a pretty decent job. Obviously everyone has their petty disputes on whether this character should do this or that character should say that, and I'm not going to police you for thinking that. But I see an incremental pessimism toward... well, just about every character across social media lately. And I feel like the arguments are becoming bad faith or outright stupid.

I'm not going to claim they're all perfect, but I do implore people to at least try and think about why certain decisions were made. And for those contributing to wider mischaracterization because you're interpreting a character's Smash portrayal as gospel, that's just never going to tell you the complete story by nature of the kind of game Smash is. Play the game or at least read / watch enough to give yourself a more nuanced perspective.

 

[Quillion]

Smash's basic gameplay does not allow for any sort of deep, nuanced or multifacted characterization...

While it wouldn't deepen their characters by a whole lot, this is part of why I'd love to see both "special team victory animations" for VS mode (where if two compatible character comprise a team, they get a special victory animation) and to incorporate brief in-engine cutscenes for an "Arcade Mode" based on Ultimate's Classic Mode.

 

[StrangeKitten]

And then there's Incineroar, whose characterization only got better in Smash. So you see, that's where the trouble began. That smile. That damned smile.

 

[Quillion]

Expanding on a recent profile post of mine:

So many people seem to want Mario to be "happier" in Smash. I'd say make the canonically cheerful characters like Kirby and Pikachu angrier instead.

Hell, Kirby's American boxart and Pikachu in Pokkén both show that making them angrier isn't a new idea for them.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

So many people seem to want Mario to be "happier" in Smash. I'd say make the canonically cheerful characters like Kirby and Pikachu angrier instead.

Hell, Kirby's American boxart and Pikachu in Pokkén both show that making them angrier isn't a new idea for them.

No. Absolutely not. Smash already suffers from taking itself too seriously, and that would just make it worse.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Expanding on a recent profile post of mine:

So many people seem to want Mario to be "happier" in Smash. I'd say make the canonically cheerful characters like Kirby and Pikachu angrier instead.

Hell, Kirby's American boxart and Pikachu in Pokkén both show that making them angrier isn't a new idea for them.

Piggybacking off of this, Melee Mario is honestly my favorite depiction of Mario not only in Smash, but maybe even ever. He's determined, yes, but still chipper and expressive as always. Compare to Brawl-and-beyond Mario where he's just kind of angry all the time. Not anywhere near as appealing nor true to the character.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Piggybacking off of this, Melee Mario is honestly my favorite depiction of Mario not only in Smash, but maybe even ever. He's determined, yes, but still chipper and expressive as always. Compare to Brawl-and-beyond Mario where he's just kind of angry all the time. Not anywhere near as appealing nor true to the character.

I think it’s the posing on Brawl Mario that makes him look particularly inexpressive. 4 and Ultimate still have a bit of that Mario charm.