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Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

Quillion

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Piggybacking off of this, Melee Mario is honestly my favorite depiction of Mario not only in Smash, but maybe even ever. He's determined, yes, but still chipper and expressive as always. Compare to Brawl-and-beyond Mario where he's just kind of angry all the time. Not anywhere near as appealing nor true to the character.
I suppose it ties into my bigger issue of people wanting "canon, canon, canon" all the time in Smash while leaving no room for changes that better adapt something to a different environment.

Again, there's nothing wrong with wanting canon references, but if it overtakes the portrayal to the point of not fitting the new environment, it becomes a problem. It's an issue that encompasses even movie adaptations of comic superheroes. There needs to be a balance.
 

BritishGuy54

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I suppose it ties into my bigger issue of people wanting "canon, canon, canon" all the time in Smash while leaving no room for changes that better adapt something to a different environment.

Again, there's nothing wrong with wanting canon references, but if it overtakes the portrayal to the point of not fitting the new environment, it becomes a problem. It's an issue that encompasses even movie adaptations of comic superheroes. There needs to be a balance.
Balance is key here. Mario and co. should be cheerful enough to be themselves, but also be serious enough to fit in with Smash.

I think the newer Mario characters get this right. Rosalina, Bowser Jr, Daisy, Piranha Plant, and even K. Rool all feel cheery enough, but with that bit of seriousness that lets them fit in.

It’s the ones who originated in 64 and Melee that don’t feel quite cheery enough. Specifically Mario, Bowser, and Donkey Kong could do with a brighter attitude, even if only slightly. They fit in too much, in a way.

It’s all about balance.
 

Quillion

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"Serious enough to fit in Smash"? Why should Smash be serious in the first place?

I agree with the rest of your post, though.
The characters need at least some measure of acting like they're in a martial arts match rather than acting blissfully unaware a lot of the time.

Note: "martial arts match", not "deathmatch". The former leaves room for friendly competitive spirit at least.
 

Quillion

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I love Brawl.


that game is butt ass fugly
It sticks out in my mind alongside Sonic 4 Ep 1 as one of the "why did I think this looked good?" games.

I'm not a big fan of Melee's art style either, but at least a lot of Nintendo's modern designs revisit its more "restrained" approach to detail with better execution, so I'll give it that.
 

Lenidem

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It sticks out in my mind alongside Sonic 4 Ep 1 as one of the "why did I think this looked good?" games.

I'm not a big fan of Melee's art style either, but at least a lot of Nintendo's modern designs revisit its more "restrained" approach to detail with better execution, so I'll give it that.
To be fair, back when the first trailer dropped, my friends and I thought it was mind blowing. Especially the stages and Link's design.
 

Champion of Hyrule

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"Serious enough to fit in Smash"? Why should Smash be serious in the first place?

I agree with the rest of your post, though.
I think “serious enough to fit in Smash” is awkward wording but it is a fighting game so I think there’s a certain degree of taking the battle seriously that Smash characters should have, like it’s a competition.

I do think Mario is too angry in Smash but I don’t personally think it would be a good thing tonally if he was smiling in literally all attacks, at least in games after Smash 64. Not saying it’s what you want, it seems like I agree with you on most points, I just think there should be a balance. I do think most of the newer Smash characters fit this principle well though.
 
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Quillion

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I think “serious enough to fit in Smash” is awkward wording but it is a fighting game so I think there’s a certain degree of taking the battle seriously that Smash characters should have, like it’s a competition.

I do think Mario is too angry in Smash but I don’t personally think it would be a good thing tonally if he was smiling in literally all attacks, at least in games after Smash 64. Not saying it’s what you want, it seems like I agree with you on most points, I just think there should be a balance. I do think most of the newer Smash characters fit this principle well though.
They really don't. In fact, having some of them seem like that barely even realize they're in a fight is a good thing, not a bad one. It gives variety and quite possibly even humor.
If there's any model for how competitive the characters should act in Smash while retaining their silly selves, it's Mario Strikers Charged.

 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
If there's any model for how competitive the characters should act in Smash while retaining their silly selves, it's Mario Strikers Charged.

No? Mario Strikers is exaggeratedly 2000s-edgy as its own aesthetic, it is an outlier as opposed to Smash which, as a promotional vehicle, is DESIGNED to meld together aesthetics into something vaguely cohesive as opposed to strictly adhering to one style - also, Mario Strikers is a football game, having characters take it this seriously is just kinda funny and entertaining, like they're hamming it up - if you made the characters act like this in an actual battle as opposed to football, you run the risk of implying, accidentally as it may be, that Smash is an actually dangerous duel and not just a fun sport, something Smash has already come way too close to for comfort in its story modes and marketing, and should be running away from any possible implication of as hard as it can. (keep in mind that one of the fighters in this series is a literal non-anthro dog)
 
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Quillion

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No? Mario Strikers is exaggeratedly 2000s-edgy as its own aesthetic, it is an outlier as opposed to Smash which, as a promotional vehicle, is DESIGNED to shape people's perceptions of games - also, Mario Strikers is a football game, having characters take it seriously is just kinda funny and entertaining - if you made the characters act like this in an actual battle as opposed to football, you run the risk of implying, accidentally as it may be, that Smash is an actually dangerous duel and not just a fun sport, something Smash has already come way too close to for comfort in its story modes and marketing, and should be running away from as hard as it can. (keep in mind that one of the fighters in this series is a literal non-anthropomorphic dog)
I guess I could settle for Battle League's lighter mood too, but I'm just not a fan of that game.

Also, I get that being edgy to appeal to mid-teens kids isn't a good idea all the time. But it seems you think that sort of aesthetic ONLY appeals to edgy teens, and that's just short-sighted. Would you call Bluey "edgy" because it deals with heavier topics than other preschool shows?

And yes, I know that part of Smash's nature is being a promotional vehicle. But its promotional nature should stay just that: a PART. The series wouldn't have gone as long as it has if it didn't try to establish its own identity on top of being a crossover fighter. It's the reason why the King of Fighters series took a life of its own that outlasted Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting. It's half the reason why PlayStation All-Stars didn't last more than one game (the other half being that it tried too hard to be unique and not hard enough to be fun).

Smash NEEDS to establish its own identity alongside being a promotional tool. It shouldn't just be one or the other, and that goes on the individual character level and the whole game level.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
It's half the reason why PlayStation All-Stars didn't last more than one game
Honestly, most of what you said had barely any relevance to what I was saying (what does Smash trying to appeal to edgy teens have to do with Bluey? There's a pretty big distinction between "Cartoon handles heavy topics in a sensitive way to help kids understand the world" and "Promotional material for dumb Nintendo game tries to appeal to insecure teens with needlessly distressing imagery"), so I'm not gonna bother arguing with that, but... have you played PSASBR? It has a REALLY distinctive aesthetic based on the XMB that is implemented into almost every aspect of the game.
 
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Champion of Hyrule

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If there's any model for how competitive the characters should act in Smash while retaining their silly selves, it's Mario Strikers Charged.

Maybe if Smash had a wrestling aesthetic like Battlestadium DON this would fit but without it, it seems like an odd tone for a fighting game that tries to capture a lot about each fighter’s home series
 

Quillion

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Honestly, most of what you said had barely any relevance to what I was saying (what does Smash trying to appeal to edgy teens have to do with Bluey? There's a pretty big distinction between "Cartoon handles heavy topics in a sensitive way to help kids understand the world" and "Promotional material for dumb Nintendo game tries to appeal to insecure teens with needlessly distressing imagery"), so I'm not gonna bother arguing with that, but... have you played PSASBR? It has a REALLY distinctive aesthetic based on the XMB that is implemented into almost every aspect of the game.
My point is that PSAS has a bit too much of a focus on things that were relevant at the time as opposed to celebrating its whole history. TBF, a lot of that has to do with with how a lot of the more iconic PS1 games weren't third party and how it was with the PS2 that Sony IE got a significant 1st party presence, but still. Maybe the issue is that PSAS jumped the gun on trying to promote things on the console.

Honestly, I just don't get why you have this burning hatred of Nintendo's darker elements. It's the darker elements that allow Nintendo to keep acquiring new adult fans on top of the ever-growing younger demographic they have. It's no different from how Bluey has far more of a genuine adult fanbase than Peppa Pig.

Now, if you're targeting the teen fans who want Nintendo to be edgier, that'd be more accurate.

Maybe if Smash had a wrestling aesthetic like Battlestadium DON this would fit but without it, it seems like an odd tone for a fighting game that tries to capture a lot about each fighter’s home series
The problem is that Smash 4-onwards is overfocused on the source material of the characters as opposed to giving them a good adaptation to a new environment. I'd love to see the series backpedal on the references without losing it altogether.
 

Champion of Hyrule

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They really don't. In fact, having some of them seem like that barely even realize they're in a fight is a good thing, not a bad one. It gives variety and quite possibly even humor.
I do think certain characters like Mario or Donkey Kong should realize they’re in a competition and not just be smiling in literally all their moves (even if Smash goes way too hard in the opposite direction for them) but I am 100% in favor of characters like Kirby or Villager not seeming to realize it and just being completely happy in matches. It just fits them way better IMO.
 

Quillion

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I do think certain characters like Mario or Donkey Kong should realize they’re in a competition and not just be smiling in literally all their moves (even if Smash goes way too hard in the opposite direction for them) but I am 100% in favor of characters like Kirby or Villager not seeming to realize it and just being completely happy in matches. It just fits them way better IMO.
I guess what I said earlier should at least apply to the Mario characters, since adapting to new environments and situations is their entire deal.

But yeah, it would be weird to apply it to characters like Villager, Kirby, or WFT.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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It would be entirely too much work for a single/two player campaign, but I'd love to see the theme in the next Smash Adventure style mode to be fighters going against twisted clones/copies of themselves. You might think that's similar enough to ideas we've seen in previous entries; here's the twist though.

The copies would have Smash movesets largely opposite/contrasting in design philosophy from the well-known versions. An evil Mario filled to the brim with power up moves, a twisted Luigi entirely based around actions with the Poltergust, a savage Donkey Kong throwing differing types of DKC barrels, an agressive Kirby out busting all sorts of copy abilities never seen in Smash and so on.

Basically, use the enemy clone concept as a dumping ground for all the wildest moveset ideas developers and/or fans have had over the years that never got to be utilized by actual Smash characters. These enemies wouldn't have to be balanced or even necessarily that deep, just a very twisted window into what they could have been.

Again, entirely impractical given the design and animation work it would entail, but man it would be glorious.
 
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ScrubReborn

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The copies would have Smash movesets largely opposite/contrasting in design philosophy from the well-known versions. An evil Mario filled to the brim with power up moves, a twisted Luigi entirely based around actions with the Poltergust, a savage Donkey Kong throwing differing types of DKC barrels, an agressive Kirby out busting all sorts of copy abilities never seen in Smash and so on.
Imagine if this is the only place where we see Canondorf 😭
 
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Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
All 5 Tetrominoes should be unique Smash fighters with their own moves. It'd obviously be funny, but additionally, I think that Tetromino having a rigid shape and detaching parts would likely be a bit easier for readability than transforming between all of them - made a bit of a mock-up here: top is a transforming L/J Tetromino's down tilt, while the lower two are the down tilts of solo J/L and solo T, the grey area is a motion streak. Not having to stick to the other shapes provides more room for appropriate squash and stretch so it can look like an attack and not just changing randomly, better range, and just generally more moveset options.
Screenshot 2024-05-25 210824.png

it's also probably the only way to give such a major part of gaming history an apt amount of slots (sorry Assistant fans). I wouldn't mind L/J and S/Z getting two slots each, but I think there's a few logistical problems there that makes it unfeasible.
 
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Perkilator

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Of all the 3rd party franchises that could've also gotten the Sephiroth treatment in the DLC, the respective Sonic and Street Fighter series feel like the ones that needed it just as much (even if their presence in the base game isn't nearly as starved for content compared to Final Fantasy).
 

DragonRobotKing26

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for anyone who wanted Pauline for Smash,i want to say that she don't have a moveset potencial

but i know that Smash put characters who have less potencial for a moveset or appears on less games as the retro reps who is okay,but...on Pauline's case,it's so complicated for make a moveset for her,and i'm not saying of like how could she fight,i'm saying choosing and how could be her special attacks and final smash
 

Perkilator

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I know the next Smash game is going to have newcomer reveal trailers again, but for the base game at least, I want those reveal trailers to only be for newcomers who are part of the starting roster (DLC fighters notwithstanding).
for anyone who wanted Pauline for Smash,i want to say that she don't have a moveset potencial

but i know that Smash put characters who have less potencial for a moveset or appears on less games as the retro reps who is okay,but...on Pauline's case,it's so complicated for make a moveset for her,and i'm not saying of like how could she fight,i'm saying choosing and how could be her special attacks and final smash
I thought the idea of “no moveset potential” was laid to rest when we got a Piranha Plant as a fighter. Im sure the team could find a way to make Pauline work.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I thought the idea of “no moveset potential” was laid to rest when we got a Piranha Plant as a fighter. Im sure the team could find a way to make Pauline work.
That's... a lot more believable than some. There's a ton of PP species with tons of moves. Of which Plant actually takes from too.

Zelda's a better example of this situation, since she barely used any of her own abilities(or any of her counterparts, like the one from the TV Show, or the CD-i games, or ALTTP, etc.). She was far more made up than Plant ever was. And even with the few Goddess spells and her respective Grab, it's still really loose. Sheik is similar, though her move count is... actually the same for "things she does"(Transform and Vanish are both normal moves for her, whereas Zelda only could do the Grab and Transform). Only difference was that Sheik was easier to imagine due to being a ninja archtype. She didn't need to borrow any items from Link just to make any kind of moveset.

-----------------

That said, I think we also need to keep a lot in mind that it's not simply moveset potential alone. It's "how can we make them interesting but actually feels remotely fun to play as." While some oddballs are in, a lot of their animations(like Wii Fit Trainer) do actually look like moves capable of dealing damage. Villager and Isabelle have a literal Axe they use(though the Bug Net is the one you can actually hit a normal character with in Animal Crossing). That's not saying there's an issue with other oddballs who don't show anything that kind of looks like an attack move either. It's just that they stand out compared to characters like that as well because they do take from more believable attacks.

Something like Phoenix Wright is absolutely awesome as an idea, but he wouldn't really compare to them. His MvC moveset is essentially weird moves that don't resemble being in a fighter. They're not supposed to. They're supposed to be silly and represent the style and craziness of his respective gameplay. They do not look like fighting moves(something that every Smash character does have). That's not saying it's a problem either. I note again that "it just simply means they don't compare that well" and nothing more. He's not one of my favorite options, but certainly would be cool too.

-------------------

As for something else;

Smash 4 is honestly the one CSS that broke logic. It wasn't so bad with the DLC and Clone Trio, but combined with Yoshi being in a completely bad spot(why isn't he after the Mario characters?), it was very clear that it does not actually follow franchise logic. You can somewhat justify Yoshi and the Clone Trio, but then the DLC hit and ignored it entirely. Previous games didn't. Ultimate doesn't use that logic(bar Echoes specifically), and that's fine, but 4 really needed a better CSS overall. Not being able to fix it yourself didn't help.

It does somewhat help that DLC was not originally planned either. It was just Mewtwo at best, as a bonus character. Unlike with Ultimate, where PP was the first planned DLC character(and had a First Pass plus potentially 1 or 2 more characters ideally after that. Pass 2 came later). So they already may have had a decent way to fix up the CSS with that in mind. There's also a question of why Yoshi, from a different franchise, is weirdly in that spot. It's not just cause of "who appeared first in the franchise" either. We already know Bowser Jr. barely made it in, meaning that Yoshi may have been the final one before DK/Wario's franchises. Was Rosalina a later idea, perhaps? Was the CSS already partially started? Or was it just a bad decision to break logic for the sake of it. That said, either way, it's a pretty badly designed CSS. Not following any clear logic really didn't help. And it most definitely can't be called a case of "grouping franchises together" when it split them multiple ways.

Ultimate at least had a reason for the split, with no strange/bad decisions to justify it. It's hard reveal order. No ifs, ands, or buts. Smash 4 meanwhile has some reveal order at times, some franchise at times, last minute additions, Mii Fighter, DLC, and a completely asinine split that we can't possibly figure out why(because it's not actually obvious enough, just easy to make theories on at most). While you can decently justify the DLC not moving into other places on its own, it would've been very easy to just keep the clones next to their counterparts, have Yoshi right before Wario, and call it a day. It would've looked a lot cleaner(that, and the DLC also was its own tab on the 3DS version, so it wasn't really an issue there). ...Also, the fact the Mii Fighters were still at the end in the Wii U version after the DLC fighters further showed how completely disorganized it was. They should've at least been before Mewtwo(which is technically the case for the 3DS version anyway).
 
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BritishGuy54

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I've said a few things on this thread alluding to this, but I don't believe I've ever said this outright: I don't get why Smash fans hate the idea of playable generic enemies, like I can't even come up with a non-valid reason to refute, let alone a valid one.
I think it’s fine in moderation. Stuff like Piranha Plant was a rarity and should stay that way.

But I think some people would have a problem if it usurps their favourite choice from the same series.
I wouldn't mind a Smash mobile spin-off that mostly features Nintendo characters while the mainline games continue the mix between 1st and 3rd party.
A Smash mobile game? Like a gacha game like how Mario Kart Tour was? I suppose that isn’t a bad shout.
 

Lenidem

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I've said a few things on this thread alluding to this, but I don't believe I've ever said this outright: I don't get why Smash fans hate the idea of playable generic enemies, like I can't even come up with a non-valid reason to refute, let alone a valid one.
Because most of us just want to play with the characters we associate the most with fond memories, and they tend to be main characters.

Is it really hard to understand that most people would rather play Lara Croft than a random warrior-monk, or as Waluigi rather than a Goomba?

Beside, there are other roles that perfectly fit generic ennemies, like stage hazard or assist trophies. In fact, it's like those roles were created for them.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
Because most of us just want to play with the characters we associate the most with fond memories, and they tend to be main characters.

Is it really hard to understand that most people would rather play Lara Croft than a random warrior-monk, or as Waluigi rather than a Goomba?

Beside, there are other roles that perfectly fit generic ennemies, like stage hazard or assist trophies. In fact, it's like those roles were created for them.
I don't think general emotional attachment is a valid thing to really evaluate for a Smash character in either positive or negative quantities - every character ever created means something to someone, and no one character is more valid to like than any other, it's a non-factor - the only thing that makes it appear that nobody associates Goomba or Motobug with "fond memories" is mob rule, nothing else, the same can be said for any character ever - if at least one person out there is a fan of the straw hat-wearning tourist on the background of Blanka's stage or the unused Fedora Kong from Donkey Kong Land, then they are inherently and irrefutably on the same level as Crash Bandicoot from a "fond memories" perspective - of course, you can still argue for and against any character, I'm not saying "all picks are good", I'm moreso saying that if your argument is "fond memories", everything is elegible because statistically, every character who could be in Smash, no matter how weird; obscure; or minor, has a fan. I gravitate towards feeble and weak characters like Goomba and Motobug, as I think of myself as feeble and weak, and am comfortable with and feel empowered by that.

Even non-anecdotally, Mario mooks spawn a **** ton of merchandise (which is why I dislike Piranha Plant's positioning as a "joke pick"), and almost every game Waluigi has been in has had Koopa Troopa and/or Shy Guy in the same role he has.
 
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AlRex

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I think a few of the minion type characters could be neat, but I wouldn’t necessarily populate the whole roster with them. Like, Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Slime, even the Creeper, I’d definitely consider legit picks, even. Though admittedly, I’d just prefer if a new Smash Run/Adventure Mode had a whole bunch of enemies from the actual game series included.
 

Perkilator

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I think a few of the minion type characters could be neat, but I wouldn’t necessarily populate the whole roster with them. Like, Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Slime, even the Creeper, I’d definitely consider legit picks, even. Though admittedly, I’d just prefer if a new Smash Run/Adventure Mode had a whole bunch of enemies from the actual game series included.
My thought exactly. Some enemies can be playable, like maybe even the Yiga Footsoldier as a Sheik Echo. Otherwise, for the most part something like Smash Run, Adventure Mode or even the AT role suits most other enemies well enough.
 

Lenidem

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I don't think general emotional attachment is a valid thing to really evaluate for a Smash character in either positive or negative quantities - every character ever created means something to someone, and no one character is more valid to like than any other, it's a non-factor - the only thing that makes it appear that nobody associates Goomba or Motobug with "fond memories" is mob rule, nothing else, the same can be said for any character ever - if at least one person out there is a fan of the straw hat-wearning tourist on the background of Blanka's stage or the unused Fedora Kong from Donkey Kong Land, then they are inherently and irrefutably on the same level as Crash Bandicoot from a "fond memories" perspective - of course, you can still argue for and against any character, I'm not saying "all picks are good", I'm moreso saying that if your argument is "fond memories", everything is elegible because statistically, every character who could be in Smash, no matter how weird; obscure; or minor, has a fan. I gravitate towards feeble and weak characters like Goomba and Motobug, as I think of myself as feeble and weak, and am comfortable with and feel empowered by that.

Even non-anecdotally, Mario mooks spawn a **** ton of merchandise (which is why I dislike Piranha Plant's positioning as a "joke pick"), and almost every game Waluigi has been in has had Koopa Troopa and/or Shy Guy in the same role he has.
Saying "if a single one person on Earth wants it, then it's valid" has nothing to do with the question you asked, which was "why would people want this instead of this". That's what I answered to.

As for the rest, when most people think of the Mario games, the first character that come to their mind is Mario. Then maybe Luigi, or Bowser or Peach. When they think about Zelda, they first think about Link and Zelda, and Ganondorf. And so on. Those are the character you spend the most time playing as, you control them, you identifiy to them. Or they are the ultimate goal, the one that justifies the whole journey, that gives the adventure it's raison d'être. The mooks? You see them a lot, yes, and they also are important in their own way. But once you jumped over a Goomba, you move on and forget instantly about it. The Goomba is just a moving part of the stage, not that different from the blocks you breaks or the moving plates-formes. Mooks are by nature ephemeral, while main characters are durable.

Not saying that mooks do not have a place in Smash, they do. But, in my opinion, they should be assist trophies or stage hazards, just like in their own games, or stickers/spirit/trophies, because the role of playable character better suits main characters and takes so much development time and energy that when someone gets in, it means that someone else doesn't.

As for Waluigi specifically, I'm tired of explaining why people like him, but in short, and among other reasons, he has a unique design and personality, and a fundamental connection with Luigi and Wario, that no random Goomba or Koopa ever had. He is not a mook and is way closer in his very concept to the main characters.
 

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I've said a few things on this thread alluding to this, but I don't believe I've ever said this outright: I don't get why Smash fans hate the idea of playable generic enemies, like I can't even come up with a non-valid reason to refute, let alone a valid one.
I don't think general emotional attachment is a valid thing to really evaluate for a Smash character in either positive or negative quantities - every character ever created means something to someone, and no one character is more valid to like than any other, it's a non-factor - the only thing that makes it appear that nobody associates Goomba or Motobug with "fond memories" is mob rule, nothing else, the same can be said for any character ever - if at least one person out there is a fan of the straw hat-wearning tourist on the background of Blanka's stage or the unused Fedora Kong from Donkey Kong Land, then they are inherently and irrefutably on the same level as Crash Bandicoot from a "fond memories" perspective - of course, you can still argue for and against any character, I'm not saying "all picks are good", I'm moreso saying that if your argument is "fond memories", everything is elegible because statistically, every character who could be in Smash, no matter how weird; obscure; or minor, has a fan. I gravitate towards feeble and weak characters like Goomba and Motobug, as I think of myself as feeble and weak, and am comfortable with and feel empowered by that.

Even non-anecdotally, Mario mooks spawn a **** ton of merchandise (which is why I dislike Piranha Plant's positioning as a "joke pick"), and almost every game Waluigi has been in has had Koopa Troopa and/or Shy Guy in the same role he has.
Lack of emotional attachment is absolutely a valid reason to not like a character inclusion, or at least is just as valid as any other reason. It all comes from a matter of opinion regardless, no matter where that opinion comes from. The fact that it's shared among many people shows that the reason isn't a one-off situation either.

For a lot of people, Piranha Plant is less a character and more of an obstacle along a course. It has the monumental disadvantage of not being able to speak, not having eyes, and not being humanoid all at once, all of which are things that can naturally help lead to attachment at a character design level. It has no story, and will either be defeated or passed by in a matter of seconds for Mario players. Ironically it wouldn't be until after its Smash addition that this started changing, like in Wonder where the singing Piranha Plants are a very memorable part of the game.

The deck was stacked against Piranha Plant from the start because of things like these. And it's the one fully unique character that's almost universally seen as expendable, if not disposable, when talking about the next game's inevitable cuts. Like...even from an objective, observatory lens, it's easily one of the least popular characters on the roster. Amateur data samples gathered from regular online, Elite Smash, and tournament results all show it as one of the characters with the lowest pick rates, both for casual and competitive.

And I don't even think it's necessarily because it's a generic mook...personally, I think a lot of it stems from the fact that it's Piranha Plant specifically. If they had picked, say, Shy Guy, I think the reception would have been far better. It exhibits a much clearer display of personality (it's right in the name lol), has many forms to pull moves from (much like Piranha Plant), could have helped disposability claims by being the second Yoshi's Island character instead of the ninth Mario character, and actually had a small fanbase supporting it since at least Smash 4 (maybe Brawl but I don't remember).

At the end of the day, a lot of people want the characters to be, well, characters. Specifically characters they can grow attached to over the course of their games. And for a lot of people, Piranha Plant doesn't fit that description.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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NASB 2 is the worse one
Saying "if a single one person on Earth wants it, then it's valid" has nothing to do with the question you asked, which was "why would people want this instead of this". That's what I answered to.

As for the rest, when most people think of the Mario games, the first character that come to their mind is Mario. Then maybe Luigi, or Bowser or Peach. When they think about Zelda, they first think about Link and Zelda, and Ganondorf. And so on. Those are the character you spend the most time playing as, you control them, you identifiy to them. Or they are the ultimate goal, the one that justifies the whole journey, that gives the adventure it's raison d'être. The mooks? You see them a lot, yes, and they also are important in their own way. But once you jumped over a Goomba, you move on and forget instantly about it. The Goomba is just a moving part of the stage, not that different from the blocks you breaks or the moving plates-formes. Mooks are by nature ephemeral, while main characters are durable.

Not saying that mooks do not have a place in Smash, they do. But, in my opinion, they should be assist trophies or stage hazards, just like in their own games, or stickers/spirit/trophies, because the role of playable character better suits main characters and takes so much development time and energy that when someone gets in, it means that someone else doesn't.

As for Waluigi specifically, I'm tired of explaining why people like him, but in short, and among other reasons, he has a unique design and personality, and a fundamental connection with Luigi and Wario, that no random Goomba or Koopa ever had. He is not a mook and is way closer in his very concept to the main characters.
I never said anything about "instead of" in my first post, just the general reluctance towards mooks. The only characters I really think "oppose" mooks are specific species members like Bandana Dee and King Boo.
Lack of emotional attachment is absolutely a valid reason to not like a character inclusion, or at least is just as valid as any other reason. It all comes from a matter of opinion regardless, no matter where that opinion comes from. The fact that it's shared among many people shows that the reason isn't a one-off situation either.

For a lot of people, Piranha Plant is less a character and more of an obstacle along a course. It has the monumental disadvantage of not being able to speak, not having eyes, and not being humanoid all at once, all of which are things that can naturally help lead to attachment at a character design level. It has no story, and will either be defeated or passed by in a matter of seconds for Mario players. Ironically it wouldn't be until after its Smash addition that this started changing, like in Wonder where the singing Piranha Plants are a very memorable part of the game.

The deck was stacked against Piranha Plant from the start because of things like these. And it's the one fully unique character that's almost universally seen as expendable, if not disposable, when talking about the next game's inevitable cuts. Like...even from an objective, observatory lens, it's easily one of the least popular characters on the roster. Amateur data samples gathered from regular online, Elite Smash, and tournament results all show it as one of the characters with the lowest pick rates, both for casual and competitive.

And I don't even think it's necessarily because it's a generic mook...personally, I think a lot of it stems from the fact that it's Piranha Plant specifically. If they had picked, say, Shy Guy, I think the reception would have been far better. It exhibits a much clearer display of personality (it's right in the name lol), has many forms to pull moves from (much like Piranha Plant), could have helped disposability claims by being the second Yoshi's Island character instead of the ninth Mario character, and actually had a small fanbase supporting it since at least Smash 4 (maybe Brawl but I don't remember).

At the end of the day, a lot of people want the characters to be, well, characters. Specifically characters they can grow attached to over the course of their games. And for a lot of people, Piranha Plant doesn't fit that description.
Piranha Plant DOES have a personality though, and that's brought to the center by its lack of eyes; legs; and speech - the personality of a feral animal, it has had that personality since Mario 64 (the earliest game where Mario characters could even feasibly have personality expressed within gameplay) - it's not anthropomorphic, but that's what makes it fun (at least to me - keep in mind that I grew up on 70s and 80s games starring geometric shapes and spaceships with unseen pilots) (also I wasn't talking about Piranha Plant, I was talking about mooks as a whole)
 
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fogbadge

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tell you what let's meet each other halfway. let's put in goombas and koopa but give the alts based off the paper mario partners
 

Lenidem

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I never said anything about "instead of" in my first post, just the general reluctance towards mooks. The only characters I really think "oppose" mooks are specific species members like Bandana Dee and King Boo.
Smash's roster isn't infinite. That's what I tried to say when I wrote "when someone gets in, somebody else doesn't".

I agree with you that Piranha Plant can display a lot of personality though.
 
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UserKev

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Regarding the enemy debate, I definitely feel like a Starman from Earthbound is beaming with personality. And recognition. I actually thought they were good guys before I played Earthbound. You definitely could have made a case for the guy had his proportional figure wasn't complicated. The muscular alligator enemy from Donkey Kong surely is recognizable enough and would feel at home on the roster. When your discussing playable enemies, there are some "minions" that are special no matter how you swallow you.

A Goomba would indeed be unnecessary and meaningless but a certain Waddle Dee and Shy Guy you could definitely squeeze in the roster.
 
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