Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Wario Wario Wario]

They do bring these up.

Octoling and Tom Nook for example

That's kinda my point - that only one character each from these IPs really come up in Smash discourse, they're not treated as particularly likely, and the idols aren't discussed at all, despite arguably being Nintendo's biggest breakout stars of the 21st century sans Isabelle and maybe Waluigi, and easily the most inevitable picks unless Smash doubles down on COGH.

 

[fogbadge]

That's kinda my point - that only one character each from these IPs really come up in Smash discourse, they're not treated as particularly likely, and the idols aren't discussed at all, despite arguably being Nintendo's biggest breakout stars of the 21st century sans Isabelle and maybe Waluigi, and easily the most inevitable picks unless Smash doubles down on COGH.

that’s not quite true, a lot of people seem to think the octolings have a shot due to their popularity with the splatoon fandom and a few people who think AC is due another character think it’ll be Tom

 

[Louie G.]

That's kinda my point - that only one character each from these IPs really come up in Smash discourse, they're not treated as particularly likely, and the idols aren't discussed at all, despite arguably being Nintendo's biggest breakout stars of the 21st century sans Isabelle and maybe Waluigi, and easily the most inevitable picks unless Smash doubles down on COGH.

I've been pretty adamant about the odds of Splatoon getting both Octoling and one of the idol groups, mostly under the guise that Octoling would be an echo fighter or alternate costume but even then - the series has grown exponentially since its initial implementation in Smash Ultimate (most of which predates Splatoon 2) and other major series like Zelda, Kirby and Pokemon have seen a 2+ character boost between games as well. Personally I prefer Off the Hook for their visual contrast and personalities, but I think Squid Sisters are about as valid of a choice and more consistently prominent. Octavio is a fun dark horse pick although I think we may be more likely to see him debut as a boss battle first.

There's a chance we could see this happen with Animal Crossing too, although I'd say a bit less likely. I do think Tom Nook is a near guarantee on the front that similar to the characters you mentioned, he's easily one of the most recognizable characters left and has seen a resurgence in importance after taking a bit of a backseat during New Leaf. I think Animal Crossing getting new content post-Switch era is pretty much a no brainer. But KK Slider is also a pretty compelling choice with a hook that virtually writes itself. Would be fun to el-kabong people with KK's guitar and we are overwhelmingly due for a music based character... although maybe that would compete with the Idols a bit too, lol. Let alone some real out there picks, but those might have to wait for now.

But I agree that these series are sold short. Even if Tom Nook is the main AC character that gets discussion - rightfully so IMO, he's the last member of the "core" cast - he's often labeled as a potential Villager semiclone. And Splatoon is drastically undervalued if people believe an echo fighter is all it warrants next game.

 

[chocolatejr9]

That's kinda my point - that only one character each from these IPs really come up in Smash discourse, they're not treated as particularly likely, and the idols aren't discussed at all, despite arguably being Nintendo's biggest breakout stars of the 21st century sans Isabelle and maybe Waluigi, and easily the most inevitable picks unless Smash doubles down on COGH.

Squid Sisters and even DJ Octavio come up a bunch in speculation, we just focus on Octoling because they make so much sense that if they WEREN'T added then there would be reason to be concerned. As for Tom Nook, well... Animal Crossing doesn't give much else to work with, to be brutally honest. Also, what do you mean by COGH?

 

[fogbadge]

Squid Sisters and even DJ Octavio come up a bunch in speculation, we just focus on Octoling because they make so much sense that if they WEREN'T added then there would be reason to be concerned. As for Tom Nook, well... Animal Crossing doesn't give much else to work with, to be brutally honest. Also, what do you mean by COGH?

he means celebration of gaming history

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Also, what do you mean by COGH?

It's a profile-post term, one I popularised IIRC, though it originates from Ultimate's marketing, for "celebration of gaming history", basically the idea of Smash branching out into 3Ps, typically used with the connotations of either a major roster wipe of 1Ps, less 1P newcomers, a specific type of 3P newcomer a la Terry with a lot of cultural influence but little Nintendo presence, or specifically excluding 3P characters like Bayonetta and Banjo who are heavily tied to Nintendo. Of course, this is just a fancy way of saying "cross-promotion" that sounds less capitalist in marketing, it's the same terminology Disney used for fast food cross-promotions in the 90s, but since a lot of the profile posters are gaming history buffs who care a lot about stuff like Neo-Geo; Commodore 64; Flash games; e.t.c., there's a bit of discourse over this being how Smash is marketed both officially and by fans relative to what games are actually featured.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Part of this may come down to fan disconnect between those fighters they think are likely and those they're actually interested in talking about and/or making movesets for. I think there actually is a silent assumption by many that Animal Crossing and Splatoon characters will be in the next Smash but since the actual emotional investment in such figures appearing in SSB is lower than the former (and there's always an awkwardness in the sentiment of "I think these fighters are coming but I don't really care about them" it often just goes unsaid. It's the same reason "Pokémon from Gen whatever" and "Fire Emblem character" appear on prediction lists with greater frequency than detailed speculation about either; they're seen as inevitability that many accept but aren't terribly excited for.

 

[AlRex]

I like the thought of an Splatoon 2/3-ish rep, and I think you could stretch Animal Crossing into a another fighter (I oddly prefer KK Slider to Tom Nook), but I feel like even though Animal Crossing is obviously very prominent and well known, it’d be difficult to make a bunch of fighters out of it compared to more obvious Mario or Pokémon characters, for instance. More so thinking of the balance of the importance thing VS how feasible it could be. It’s perhaps representative enough that they could have Villager, Isabelle, maybe even a third character, and a good few stages + an assist. But it’s mostly subjective ultimately what makes for a “good” newcomer idea.

If Pac-Man was first party for example, even then, I think a Ghost with costumes and maybe Ms. Pac-Man (rescued from Hell) as a semi-clone, would be the most expansion needed. Would not make like four separate movesets for the Ghosts. I’m perhaps arguing with a point I thought up myself, though, but this probably also provides some insight to why people speculate less on AC characters. Most of the “creative stretching” is done for a wide array of new series that could get in.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

If Mario gets another character in Smash, Lakitu is an underrated candidate

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The fact that nobody ever brings up Splatoon (particularly the idols) or Animal Crossing in Smash speculation feels less like someone adamantly insiting "the sky is not blue" and moreso like watching in anticipation as an alien that has crash landed on Earth at night is about to find out that the sky is blue.

I think that’s an artefact of Fighter’s Pass 2 speculation, in which people didn’t believe Octoling could make it in as a DLC character by virtue of being an easy clone, but then also couldn’t see a different Splatoon character make it in before Octoling. Since then, Splatoon has grown even more thanks to Splatoon 3 and Side Order, but without a Smash game on the horizon people aren’t specifically in getting-speculation-right-mode, speculating more about what they’re personally interested in. That said it felt a little weird to be one of the few people to bring up Off The Hook in Fighters Pass 2 speculation.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

After playing some Zelda TOTK and mulling it over for a while, I now strongly suspect that Smash's portrayal of that franchise is not at all indictive on what it is supposed to be. I've played a few Zelda titles before and liked them to some extent, but always thought something was amiss with this... and I think it was actually my introduction to Zelda through Smash first and foremost that was to blame. No matter what way I look at it, a lot of charisma is put into most Zelda titles, which I think is severely lacking in the depiction of characters, items, and to an extent stages that Smash has traditionally provided. I get a much different impression from Zelda in Smash... far too straightforward and stoic to catch my eye. If that makes any sense.

 

[UserKev]

Maybe I'm missing some of what AmongWaddleDees is addressing his opinion to but yeah. Zelda is a very flat and dull character in Smash. I'm confident to say she can be cut and people would immediately get over it.

 

[fogbadge]

Maybe I'm missing some of what AmongWaddleDees is addressing his opinion to but yeah. Zelda is a very flat and dull character in Smash. I'm confident to say she can be cut and people would immediately get over it.

you'd be wrong

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Maybe I'm missing some of what AmongWaddleDees is addressing his opinion to but yeah. Zelda is a very flat and dull character in Smash. I'm confident to say she can be cut and people would immediately get over it.

Or maybe they should just rework her moveset so that she's not as clunky or outclassed by as many other characters as she is in Ultimate?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Zelda I think works fine functionally, and she doesn't feel necessarily unrepresentative of the LoZ series, but her core is clearly a product of an era where there was only so much to go off of moveset wise. One of the reasons the Phantom Slash stands out in positive way is that feels very distinctly her given the attack's Phantom Hourglass roots.

 

[FazDude]

Maybe I'm missing some of what AmongWaddleDees is addressing his opinion to but yeah. Zelda is a very flat and dull character in Smash. I'm confident to say she can be cut and people would immediately get over it.

I think AWD was talking about Zelda as in the franchise as a whole, not the character.

That being said, I think Zelda's a solid design and doesn't need any huge tweaks. MAYBE Light Arrow over Phantom Slash if I was being especially adventurous, but I like PS too.

 

[UserKev]

Or maybe they should just rework her moveset so that she's not as clunky or outclassed by as many other characters as she is in Ultimate?

The thing with Zelda, she's very "Princess" at her core, which greatly limits her. Zelda has no quirks. She's a well raised princess trope that is enescapable. Basically a "statue" BoTW Zelda could have maybe fixed this but we all know how they turned out.

I think AWD was talking about Zelda as in the franchise as a whole, not the character.

That being said, I think Zelda's a solid design and doesn't need any huge tweaks. MAYBE Light Arrow over Phantom Slash if I was being especially adventurous, but I like PS too.

I say bring in Tetra. Zelda's problem is she's lifeless and stale. She needs a overall new character portrayal.

 

[fogbadge]

The thing with Zelda, she's very "Princess" at her core, which greatly limits her. Zelda has no quirks. She's a well raised princess trope that is enescapable. Basically a "statue" BoTW Zelda could have maybe fixed this but we all know how they turned out.


I say bring in Tetra. Zelda's problem is she's lifeless and stale. She needs a overall new character portrayal.

zelda is probably the character whose incarnations have the most variety in personality. from fiesty in ww to stoic in to cheerful in albw

 

[KingofPhantoms]

The thing with Zelda, she's very "Princess" at her core, which greatly limits her. Zelda has no quirks. She's a well raised princess trope that is enescapable. Basically a "statue" BoTW Zelda could have maybe fixed this but we all know how they turned out.

There's way more to multiple different incarnations of Zelda's character than just "princess".

Also, while personality can very much influence a moveset as seen with Ridley and it's often important to capture a character's personality in their moveset as well, few of Zelda's moves actually tie solely into her personality. The three different Zeldas seen from Melee to Ultimate wouldn't largely have the same attacks otherwise.

 

[Perkilator]

Stages like Rainbow Cruise, Skyloft and Wuhu Island are at their best with hazards turned off since it allows you to appreciate the background of a some stage. Now, if only hazardless Wuhu Island was like hazardless Skyloft, where the stage layout stays still while the entire island is in display in the background.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Stages like Rainbow Cruise, Skyloft and Wuhu Island are at their best with hazards turned off since it allows you to appreciate the background of a some stage. Now, if only hazardless Wuhu Island was like hazardless Skyloft, where the stage layout stays still while the entire island is in display in the background.

Along those lines, as useless as a feature as this would be to most fans, I'd love to have a theater mode for stages ala Tetris Effect. Just a proverbial screen saver where you just have Smash stage backgrounds actively going through their cycle with no platforms or fighters.







(Also, we should have a Tetris Effect stage because it would be cool, and the soundtrack would be awesome)

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't think any character who is, or could feasibly be, in Smash, MVS, or NASB is a "joke character", and games of that type nigh-inherently cannot have "joke characters". Might be a difference in vocab, but in my mind a "joke character" is a character that, fundamentally, does not fit in and breaks the reality of the game - like Mokap or Gon, both of these contrast the consistent worlds they're in, Mokap being a giant meta joke in a world without many modern elements, while Gon is a cartoonish dinosaur in a relatively realistic world, at least stylistically.

Crossovers as wide-reaching and stylistically diverse as Smash have no consistent style or reality, no immersion to break, putting Mr. G&W or Steve next to Marth is no weirder than putting Mario next to Marth, the only real differences between these two juxtapositions is that you don't see aesthetics like G&W or Steve in external media as much as the big-nosed Franco-Belgian design tropes Mario takes from. This isn't Jump Forces where each series shares many tropes.

The only two other reasons I can see for a character being a "joke" are A. a percieved lack of importance in their source material or overall - something that is an external factor, and not reflected in the game itself in a vacuum (let's say you've lived under a rock for a decade and have never heard of Adventure Time, how are you supposed to know Banana Guard is just a bit player, let alone funny beyond just "bananas are funny"? There's nothing telling you this character is an exception in any way, and therefore nothing to find funny outside of the character's own moveset and personality.) and B. just being a funny character - in which case, where do you draw the line? Where does Crash Bandicoot - the Taz-inspired gibberish-spouting marsupial known for his silly death animations and crotch-chop dance who is widely accepted to not be a joke pick - split away from something like Big the Cat or Rabbids? How is Hugh Neutron "exceptionally jokey" when you've got a game where the most serious, dramatic franchise featured is the show with "My cabbages! my precious cabbages!" as a running gag?

 

[fogbadge]

I don't think any character who is, or could feasibly be, in Smash, MVS, or NASB is a "joke character", and games of that type nigh-inherently cannot have "joke characters". Might be a difference in vocab, but in my mind a "joke character" is a character that, fundamentally, does not fit in and breaks the reality of the game - like Mokap or Gon, both of these contrast the consistent worlds they're in, Mokap being a giant meta joke in a world without many modern elements, while Gon is a cartoonish dinosaur in a relatively realistic world, at least stylistically.

Crossovers as wide-reaching and stylistically diverse as Smash have no consistent style or reality, no immersion to break, putting Mr. G&W or Steve next to Marth is no weirder than putting Mario next to Marth, the only real differences between these two juxtapositions is that you don't see aesthetics like G&W or Steve in external media as much as the big-nosed Franco-Belgian design tropes Mario takes from. This isn't Jump Forces where each series shares many tropes.

The only two other reasons I can see for a character being a "joke" are A. a percieved lack of importance in their source material or overall - something that is an external factor, and not reflected in the game itself in a vacuum (let's say you've lived under a rock for a decade and have never heard of Adventure Time, how are you supposed to know Banana Guard is just a bit player, let alone funny beyond just "bananas are funny"? There's nothing telling you this character is an exception in any way, and therefore nothing to find funny outside of the character's own moveset and personality.) and B. just being a funny character - in which case, where do you draw the line? Where does Crash Bandicoot - the Taz-inspired gibberish-spouting marsupial known for his silly death animations and crotch-chop dance who is widely accepted to not be a joke pick - split away from something like Big the Cat or Rabbids? How is Hugh Neutron "exceptionally jokey" when you've got a game where the most serious, dramatic franchise featured is the show with "My cabbages! my precious cabbages!" as a running gag?

you're over thinking this a tad. joke characters as far as smash goes is a fan term and as such is virtually meaningless. unless the devs call the character a joke character then they aren't really a joke character.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Since I just posted this in the other thread; the playable version of Ridley in Ultimate is extremely awkward, and feels heavily forced. I personally wouldn't be satisfied with this outcome if Ridley was my most requested character, but alas.

 

[Louie G.]

Ridley was one of my most wanted characters and now he’s one of my most played characters. Personally I think his issues are overstated and boil down to a few moveset changes and startup / frame data adjustments. And one more ****ing jump, please.

He’s one of my favorite Nintendo characters for his resilience, the fact that he shows no mercy and he always comes back learning from his last loss. And I think they got his “character” down perfectly. He is relentlessly brutal and mean, his animations are extremely cool. When you are in control you feel like a savage.

The main thing is, IMO, they were scared to let Ridley be a legitimate terror because balance was always the key concern in implementing him. Hopefully if/when he returns next time, after his performance in Ultimate as a middling character, they will be less scared to let him reach his fullest potential. But I still love him. Not perfect, but not awkward or dissatisfying… but isn’t it just like Ridley to simply come back better and stronger next time around? He does have a lot of room to grow.

 

[UserKev]

I completely agree. Ridley has some of the most intriguing moveset revamp potential out of the entire roster.

Ridley has also brought more personality to Smash. A wonderful Smash entry and incredibly recurring to his home series. Let him in.

 

[Laniv]

Ridley just needs the tail pogo thingy and he's set

 

[Swamp Sensei]

As for my unpopular Smash opinion?

I main Ridley. His current down air isn't great, but its significantly better than the community says. It has its uses.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I really love Ridley's down air because it has absolutely no reason to not be the pogo, but still isn't anyway. As someone who loves when Smash takes liberties from its source materials, and dislikes how big Smash has gone on source accuracy, it brings me just the tiniest bit of joy.

 

[UserKev]

Ridley just needs the tail pogo thingy and he's set

The pogo tail would be busted. It's iconic but Ridley would be spammable to oblivion and barely reachable. Unless you mean if it's just a one time down air bullseye? That's ideal.

 

[Laniv]

The pogo tail would be busted. It's iconic but Ridley would be spammable to oblivion and barely reachable. Unless you mean if it's just a one time down air bullseye? That's ideal.

I'll be honest, I was going for "replaces Skewer in midair"

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

This take is very well-familiar to those who know me from the profile posts, and in general my disdain for trailers is known here, but I think it's something I want to mention: the way Smash fans talk about DLC trailers is really weird. Go on the backloggd pages for any Smash DLC and most of the reviews include (or even are in-whole) ratings of the trailers as if they're part of the product and not a promotional material - nobody talks about Halo 3 as if it's "that beautiful super bowl ad", nobody talks about the PS3 as "the crying baby doll console", Yoshi's Island isn't "the gross fat guy explodes game", so why should Sora getting in Smash be "the ultimate culmination of hype"? why should Byleth be "the lame boring trailer that caused discourse"? The only games I can really think of that's marketing are seen as part of their identity in this way are Daikatana and Rise of the Robots, both games that over-promised and under-delivered, but Ultimate - as critical as I am of it - did not under-deliver.

I guess this could be, like a lot of my takes, a me-thing that comes from how I experienced games as a kid. I grew up on retro games in a pre-Atari 50 world, where context wasn't provided and I had to seek it out myself - with a lot of my favourite games in my childhood I did not know what the cartridge or box looked like. When I play a modern game, I'm very much thinking about how someone would percieve it in 20-30 years in a ROM set once Switch emulation is easily accessible, with only a name and not as much as a blurb to go off of, since that's how I experienced games of the past.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The thing is marketing (for good or for ill) has become somewhat baked into the broader Smash cultural legacy, arguably with its modern genesis at E3 2006. That video (culminating with the Snake reveal), the Smash Dojo for Brawl, the Directs (whether they were called that or not) hyping up Smash 4, and then the DLC trailers that effectively kicked into high gear with Cloud that set the tone for the ones in Ultimate? They're all interwoven with the discussion of the series' imprint on gaming culture and given how lucrative this type of advertising has become for Nintendo (to the point where there was a three- and half-year streak of Smash news at every Direct) its clearly not going away.

I'd liken it to the discussion about the Phantom Menace. In some level one would prefer to simply discuss the film's merits by itself, but the heavy merchandising and marketing (arguably the biggest ever seen at that point) is tied into Episode One very closely, fairly or unfairly.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mewtwo would function better as a heavyweight than as a glass canon.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Something I talked about in another thread was that I think third parties making their own crossovers is a good idea.

We’ve already seen big companies make their own crossover fighters such as Multiversus, Nick All-Stars Brawl, etc.

Disney has a ton of potential when it comes to this. If there’s anyone besides Nintendo I think can pull it off, it’s Disney. And if they can’t, no one can. A crossover fighter with Mickey Mouse, Buzz Lightyear, Darth Vader, Iron Man, and Homer Simpson goes hard.

But I’m more so thinking about third party video game companies. Obvious ones include Microsoft with its slew of recent IPs acquired over the last 20+ years, Square Enix with its long history of revered games and series, and we already know Capcom, Namco, and SNK have all had their own turns playing with each other and others in the past.

This would kind of wreck the ‘hype’ of Smash, but I’m curious to see what the future holds for crossover fighters.

 

[fogbadge]

Disney has a ton of potential when it comes to this. If there’s anyone besides Nintendo I think can pull it off, it’s Disney. And if they can’t, no one can. A crossover fighter with Mickey Mouse, Buzz Lightyear, Darth Vader, Iron Man, and Homer Simpson goes hard.

see that started off well but it quickly became awful