Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[RykZyk]

Brawl is underrated.

I don't know if this can still be considered an unpopular opinion, nowadays most people appreciate Smash Brawl for many reasons (mainly because the kids who grow up with Brawl are now adults and they joyful remember the game) like its Subspace Emissary (which was also better appreciated after World of Light), the introduction of third-party characters, Final Smashes, Assist Trophies, and more.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Honestly, if I was making the next Smash game then I would absolutely NOT try to appeal to the people in the competitive community who think old movesets are too “iconic” to leave behind. I’m sorry, but their definition of “iconic” is NOT more important than changing a moveset for the better.

Why do you have such a grudge against the competitive Smash scene? It feels like every other post you're talking borderline-maliciously about how you want Nintendo to completely neglect the comp community (which Smash already does anyway).

 

[Louie G.]

Besides, I don’t think the competitive scene is to blame about moveset legacy. Those who are more competitively minded and concerned about gameplay first are probably going to embrace heavier changes if they add something meaningful to the gameplay.

Honestly seeing how Sakurai’s concern seems to be alienating old players, that strikes me as more of a casual base issue since comp players are more adaptive. Little Billy might be taken aback if he picks up Kirby and suddenly has to learn from scratch.

I mean, I guess there are people who miss elements of Melee Falco, but nobody was complaining when Sheik got two new special moves in Smash 4. Surely people will complain if these changes actively walk back character depth but that’s another conversation about the quality of the changes vs having them exist at all.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Besides, I don’t think the competitive scene is to blame about moveset legacy. Those who are more competitively minded and concerned about gameplay first are probably going to embrace heavier changes if they add something meaningful to the gameplay.

Tournaments are sometimes a reason people want moveset revamps anyway, like how Ganondorf's eternal botton tier status is partially thanks to the Falcondorf kit lacking ways to deal with projectiles.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Piranha Plant is probably the only Smash character that I wouldn't really miss if they were cut.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Come to think of it how samey character movesets are between games might not have anything to do with casual OR competitive players.

Smash sequels that don't aim for Everyone Is Here still end up being Almost Everyone Is Here, and they all add more newcomers than your average fighting game sequel, even is a larger group of newcomers than how many SF6 or Tekken 8 added. Both leave little room for moveset changes to be more common beyond "make him pose like this instead" or "replace his bombs with...remote-detonated ones".

 

[UserKev]

Mega Man's much bigger and expansive IP with hotly enduring fanbase still campaigning on the series to come back though - not to mention we got about 2 games in last 5 years (kinda? Megaman X Dive is an odd beast due it's origin...)

Not something you could say about Goemon who's pretty much had it's much smaller fanbase gather to more confined spaces as no new games have been made for the series for almost twenty years now.

It's feels pretty similar observing the general non-preference to C-List Nintendo-IPs vs flagship ones we see in Smash but with 3rd Parties - legacy's there definitely but the general reach in videogaming pop culture today isn't due obscurity. It's why Sakurai's passed on Takamaru and Ayumi Tachibana before, something I feel can be said about rest of obscure reps that he put as Assists often.

Mega Man is clearly a product of his time. But maybe this is all my personal bias since I was never really invested in the franchise. Goemon is a more interesting I.P that unpredictably is a major benefit. Mega Man may has recent new installments but their so practically.. meh. You can barely make a Mega Man game worthwhile anymore other than using him in crossovers.

 

[RykZyk]

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion: I really think that the Smash team has a strong bias towards japanese taste. The fact that they chose Sephiroth over Dr. Eggman despite the latter one being a thousand times more iconic and popular just shows it.

 

[RykZyk]

Piranha Plant is probably the only Smash character that I wouldn't really miss if they were cut.

I think most people agree on this

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion: I really think that the Smash team has a strong bias towards japanese taste. The fact that they chose Sephiroth over Dr. Eggman despite the latter one being a thousand times more iconic and popular just shows it.

This has to be a troll post.

 

[Perkilator]

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion: I really think that the Smash team has a strong bias towards japanese taste. The fact that they chose Sephiroth over Dr. Eggman despite the latter one being a thousand times more iconic and popular just shows it.

I wanted Eggman too and even I know this is blatantly false.

 

[AlRex]

I feel like Eggman and Sephiroth are equally iconic, more or less. It’s a bit tricky to determine, but the gulf between them wouldn’t be as wide as, like, the gulf between Mario and Zero the Kamikaze Squirrel.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Piranha Plant is probably the only Smash character that I wouldn't really miss if they were cut.

Something I'd raise on this now that you mentioned it:

Most of Smash-fanbase wouldn't mind if Sakurai actually ended choosing to keep Piranha Plant for Smash 6 over Bowser Jr incase there'll be cuts - if going by how universally liked Plant has been up to this day because how unique and out-of-box the character is as a concept over a more "check-list-y fan demand" character that Jr would be called as.

If Rosalina's the one cut though, I feel heads will roll a bit harder at him for such a choice.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion: I really think that the Smash team has a strong bias towards japanese taste. The fact that they chose Sephiroth over Dr. Eggman despite the latter one being a thousand times more iconic and popular just shows it.

I don't think that's a good example. You're underplaying Sephiroth a lot here.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Something I'd raise on this now that you mentioned it:

Most of Smash-fanbase wouldn't mind if Sakurai actually ended choosing to keep Piranha Plant for Smash 6 over Bowser Jr incase there'll be cuts - if going by how universally liked Plant has been up to this day because how unique and out-of-box the character is as a concept over a more "check-list-y fan demand" character that Jr would be called as.

If Rosalina's the one cut though, I feel heads will roll a bit harder at him for such a choice.

Really? I would be a bit upset if Pirahna Plant was kept over Bowser Jr. Not even because I particularly want Jr kept, but because I just think that situation of Piranha Plant being retained over him would be highly annoying.

 

[UserKev]

Bowser Jr. Is one of those characters that has really failed to live up to his name. I can kinda see why someone would post an otherwise instance. PP has a far more memorable and stronger presence that wasn't put under the risk of being subjected with "Cough Cough" other plant variations like Jr. He's right at home in the Mario series but in Smash, he's undeniably meh.

 

[Perkilator]

Listen, I may not love the implementation of Jr. in Smash, but for the next Smash to replace him with Piranha Plant of all characters would be, honestly, kind of insulting. At worst, I could see Jr. being replaced by Rosalina due to the latter's puppet fighter playstyle.

 

[FazDude]

My order of priority would be Junior, then Plant, then Rosa. Would swap Plant for Goomba in a heartbeat, though.

 

[UserKev]

I'm sorry but PP has a way more fun move set than most of you are giving him credit for. Sometimes I just don't get the bandwagon to drop him like he's the worst thing ever. It's somewhat painfully sad when PP can't even enjoy being a joke character.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I love the damn Plant to the point it's one of my most used characters in Ultimate, but let's be real. It's a completely expendable "character" that only worked in the context that it didn't "take the place of" any existing Smash character.

It's much harder to justify keeping a random Mario mook when we have to factor that the next game will more likely than not be downsizing the roster.

 

[FazDude]

I'm sorry but PP has a way more fun move set than most of you are giving him credit for. Sometimes I just don't get the bandwagon to drop him like he's the worst thing ever. It's somewhat painfully sad when PP can't even enjoy being a joke character.

I don't hate Plant at all; Probably one of the most fun DLC characters in Ult. I just like Goombas more.

 

[Laniv]

Look, at the end of the day, Piranha Plant's probably not sticking around, and I personally would probably replace it with Lakitu.

But, to speak in its defense, it has way more reasons to be here than half the names I hear get tossed around and a handful of characters that are already playable

 

[AlRex]

Elephant in the room here is that Corrin is more expendable that the Plant, but that is perhaps a cold take but also contentious in its own right. Not like either series lacks characters in general, really.

 

[RykZyk]

Plant was a fun addition none of the less but yeah i think he's the character with most chances of getting cut, along with Pichu.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Piranha Plant's at complete opposite ends of my enjoyment as a concept vs that as a fighter. Conceptually it's reveal induced a mild chuckle, but beyond that it's a WTF character that never felt all that critical for Smash to have. Unfair or not, it's hard for me to separate my feelings about how meh its inclusion really was when various IP's still feel underrepresented. It did not take the place of Impa, BWD, or Dixie Kong, but it being there and them not will always feel a bit baffling.

Thankfully this is balanced out by the character being genuinely fun to play as, with an overall feel that's distinct and gelling with my preferred playstyle when it comes to fighters. It brought back the enjoyment I had with many of the custom move fighter variations in 4 and it's just a satisfying character to selectively utilize for certain fights.

If PP is cut I will miss having it as an option, however it's also a much easier absence to get over vs that of a Snake or Mewtwo.

 

[Laniv]

With regards to characters being faithful to their home games, something that I've struggled to put into words:

Super Smash Bros. is, at the end of the day adapting characters into its gameplay, and that often means things will need to be changed to better fit gameplay. Characters will be composited, as in they will probably use attacks they themselves didn't necessarily use in their game. Subsequently, their strengths or weaknesses will need to be adjusted to fit the game. So if they add Toad (here's hoping), he may use items and abilities that Captain Toad used. And if they add Captain Toad (again, here's hoping), he's most likely going to be able to jump.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

While Smash Bros and traditional fighting games largely exist within their own circles, I do think that the latter's more lowkey presence throughout much of the aughts helped elevate the former. While Tekken and Soul Calibur were doing quite strongly and people were always playing games in the genre, that post-arcade pre-netplay period was one where many series struggled to adapt in the console space, with some succeeding more than others. Smash, particularly Melee was a console originated fighter that thrived for general audiences in a period where heavy hitters like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat were either struggling with their identity or being inconsistently active with releases.

Smash's rise happening right near the end of traditional 2D fighting game's golden age and before the genre's eventual renaissance gave it a lot of attention and momentum that it might have had to fight harder for had it come in the 2010s or now. even with the series status as a platform fighter.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

With regards to characters being faithful to their home games, something that I've struggled to put into words:

Super Smash Bros. is, at the end of the day adapting characters into its gameplay, and that often means things will need to be changed to better fit gameplay. Characters will be composited, as in they will probably use attacks they themselves didn't necessarily use in their game. Subsequently, their strengths or weaknesses will need to be adjusted to fit the game. So if they add Toad (here's hoping), he may use items and abilities that Captain Toad used. And if they add Captain Toad (again, here's hoping), he's most likely going to be able to jump.

I've long felt they could explore that bit with via bringing in the forgotten attribute (?) of Toad having a poor jump from SMB2 next to Captain Toad's inability to do so, via a special move that has Captain Toad put things to his backpack (Villager's Pocket?) - complemented with him having Vegetable Pull from Peach but with entirely different "veggies" or items from Captain Toad or even other Mario-games. So you could stuff up his backpack with vegetables or other items whenever you wish?

The more he stuffs to his backpack, the more poorer his jump until he can't lift himself from the ground. In compensation, attacks involving his backpack hit harder and maybe he'd be harder to launch too?

Whelp, I need to stay on-topic.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Ice Climbers is the worst character addition the series has ever done. They're only held up on a pedestal because of being added in a very old game in the series with Melee which gives them seniority, so they're more immune to criticism.

You don't need to pick some random game nobody's ever heard of outside of the context of Smash, there's plenty of other potential dual characters you could use to work with, even at the time of Melee's release.

As a moveset, they're the most unenjoyable toxic characters in the game in Melee and Brawl. Seriously, how is a generic chaingrab infinite not the first thing you think of trying to prevent on a dual character like this? It's embarrassing.

Once they came back in Ultimate with their cheese finally removed, barely anybody picked them - the primary reason they were used was for abuse of their broken mechanics. They're just there for the sake of completion like Young Link.

 

[Laniv]

As a moveset, they're the most unenjoyable toxic characters in the game in Melee and Brawl. Seriously, how is a generic chaingrab infinite not the first thing you think of trying to prevent on a dual character like this? It's embarrassing.

Once they came back in Ultimate with their cheese finally removed, barely anybody picked them - the primary reason they were used was for abuse of their broken mechanics. They're just there for the sake of completion like Young Link.

Brawl Olimar would like to join the conversation

And if any character is "just there for completion", it's Corrin... or Pichu.

 

[Guynamednelson]

And if any character is "just there for completion", it's Corrin... or Pichu.

No, he's got a point. Most people including Sakurai would assume Toon Link makes YL completely and utterly redundant before SSBU, and even after SSBU most people assume YL will get the boot over TL regardless of who has the bigger playerbase

 

[Laniv]

No, he's got a point. Most people including Sakurai would assume Toon Link makes YL completely and utterly redundant before SSBU, and even after SSBU most people assume YL will get the boot over TL regardless of who has the bigger playerbase

Fair enough. I just think comparing Ice Climbers, who at least bring something new to the table, to Young Link, a character who effectively got replaced in future games, is a bit silly and wrong

 

[MasterWarlord]

Brawl Olimar would like to join the conversation

And if any character is "just there for completion", it's Corrin... or Pichu.

It's the combined competitive play toxicity with being a nothing character.

Say what you want about other retro/shock characters, they're all far more famous than Ice Climbers.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'm watching a really interesting YouTube video about the use of IP in Disney theme parks, and I feel a lot of it mirrors my thoughts on the direction Smash is taking

There's one big part, however, that really sticks out to me (although I haven't watched the whole video yet) - at about 9:58, something that's kinda bugged me about Smash for a long time but I've never really wanted to say (just on virtue of being so far out of the "Smash overton window", even for me) comes up: that Disney's IP parks only really appeal to those who like the IP as is, then contrasting it against Universal's IP content that tries harder to have appeal to those who are indifferent on or even dislike the IP. I think that's something Smash suffers from a lot - character choices, movesets, stages, a lot of it is "how do we distill this game into its most iconic, recognisable elements?" and not "what is the coolest part of this game in a vacuum?", and that's how you end up with all the FE reps being lords; all the Pokemon being starters; so many grassy plains stage; so on.

 

[Laniv]

It's the combined competitive play toxicity with being a nothing character.

Say what you want about other retro/shock characters, they're all far more famous than Ice Climbers.

I still say the Ice Climbers have inherent value by dint of being randos that no one would pick otherwise. They can't all be famous retros or the new hotness. And I feel that picking a retro or shock character that's less famous than the one you're thinking of is kinda the point of a shock character.

And if I'm being honest, if Smash Bros didn't choose characters from bad games, we'd have a smaller, less flavorful roster. Ain't nobody doing it like Ice Climbers.

(No, Rosalina doesn't count. That's a similar but separate archetype.)

 

[MasterWarlord]

I still say the Ice Climbers have inherent value by dint of being randos that no one would pick otherwise. They can't all be famous retros or the new hotness. And I feel that picking a retro or shock character that's less famous than the one you're thinking of is kinda the point of a shock character.

And if I'm being honest, if Smash Bros didn't choose characters from bad games, we'd have a smaller, less flavorful roster. Ain't nobody doing it like Ice Climbers.

(No, Rosalina doesn't count. That's a similar but separate archetype.)

If you're going to do an out there wacky character choice in a crossover game, I expect something more exciting, like Shuma Gorath, Rocket Raccoon before he was famous, or Piranha Plant.

There are many characters who are generically duos, this is not some unique trait to the Ice Climbers. Besides, they don't do anything original with this specific duo that they couldn't do with any other duo character concept. Any random pair of two characters could perform janky poorly thought out grab abuses.

With their obscene obscurity, you may as well have just made an original character in their place for your moveset concept, representing Smash would be more of a thing than this mediocre title that is only discussed because of Smash. This isn't out of place for crossover fighters either with characters like Ruby Heart and Android 21...

 

[Laniv]

If you're going to do an out there wacky character choice in a crossover game, I expect something more exciting, like Shuma Gorath, Rocket Raccoon before he was famous, or Piranha Plant.

Again, that's the point of an out there wacky choice.

Edit: whoops pushed the post button too early. You thought it would be an exciting famous hero from a popular game, but it was them, the Ice Climbers!

There are many characters who are generically duos, this is not some unique trait to the Ice Climbers. Besides, they don't do anything original with this specific duo that they couldn't do with any other duo character concept. Any random pair of two characters could perform janky poorly thought out grab abuses.

Mario and Luigi could have been a duo. As could Diddy and Dixie, or DK and Diddy. But that's not their main draw. It would be a disservice, I think, to Diddy or Dixie to slap them together as a duo character. And don't get me started on something like Mario and Yoshi, or Wario and Waluigi as a duo. (Yes I actually have heard of something like that.)

And they are still the only cryokinetics in the game, so they have that going for them, with or without chain grabs.

With their obscene obscurity, you may as well have just made an original character in their place for your moveset concept, representing Smash would be more of a thing than this mediocre title that is only discussed because of Smash. This isn't out of place for crossover fighters either with characters like Ruby Heart and Android 21...

Their "obscene obscurity" is part of the fun! It's fun to see random characters you never would have thought of otherwise! Yeah, I wanna see how the Ice Climbers would fight! Yeah, I wanna see what they would do with Lip or Excitebiker or Sukapon or Ayumi Tachibana! I wanna see what Lark's moveset would be! I wanna see the Balloon Fighter's Final Smash!

Oh God people liked this before I finished editing it whoops lol

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Mario and Yoshi,

I think this would be really fun as a seperate character, but obviously not the default version.

 

[AlRex]

I think this would be really fun as a seperate character, but obviously not the default version.

Obvious route is Baby Mario and Yoshi, though hard to distinguish from regular Yoshi. I can see it in a retro/different styled fangame as their Yoshi take, though.

 

[MasterCheef]

Smaller characters should be more like Sheik ; great combo potential , however _ has significant difficulty obtaining KOs