Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Ze Diglett]

But not in the version you can play on Switch. At least use Fortnite if you wanna argue it's not illegal to display an image of Kratos on a Nintendo system.

That's not what I'm arguing to begin with. What I'm arguing is that if the indie game can get the guy from God of War in even just one version of it, it is more than possible for the multibillion dollar company that has dealt with similarly stingy companies to get him in their blockbuster party game. Maybe not easy, but certainly possible.

Kratos was just for the sake of example anyway. There are dozens of other objectively important and popular non-Japanese games not acknowledged by Smash at all, most of them not even touched by Sony. (I think Crash has been ignored for way too long, personally.)

 

[Louie G.]

The lapse in western content really isn't hard to understand. Third party guest characters were a rarity up until Smash 4 DLC, and up to that point were four of Nintendo's closest Japanese partners. Of course it will be easier to just reach over to a neighbor and ask than to fly overseas for it. Ultimate raised the bar, now we have two western characters in Banjo & Kazooie and Steve. We have a wealth of content from western titles - AAA and indie - via Mii Costumes, spirits, music and Assist Trophies. The sensible conclusion to this is to recognize that we are operating in the right direction, and next game will likely continue to rectify this even further and add at least a couple more via DLC.

We're always going to have more Japanese characters because Smash is a game made in Japan. I don't really care about that, and I'm not making the mistake of holding it to some infallible standard of being a history museum. Smash is a celebration of gaming, but it is not the complete encyclopedia of gaming history and doesn't really claim to be either. There are dozens of assets of gaming history, genre starters and massively famous series that are absent from Smash and will likely continue to be. But it's also been taking steps in the right direction to continue to expand its reach, touch on more worldly phenomenon and brush shoulders with western collaborators. With Microsoft already in their pocket, after these company buyouts, there's rich potential for the picking here and I'd be surprised if we didn't finally get some FPS representation in Smash at least. That isn't to mention the indie series that Smash has already broken the bread with as well as Ubisoft which has had a presence since Smash 4.

But perhaps this just comes down to a difference in values between me and those who think we have been disserved because Nintendo owes it to us to give us Crash Bandicoot. Personally I'm more concerned about the lack of puzzle, FPS, rhythm, VN, horror etc etc present on the roster and I believe new genres open gateways to new audiences and new styles of play. If we want to talk about Smash's failings as a display of video game history, this feels far more important to me than petty east vs west affairs. We like most of these Japanese games just as much as they do overseas anyway.

 

[Ze Diglett]

The lapse in western content really isn't hard to understand. Third party guest characters were a rarity up until Smash 4 DLC, and up to that point were four of Nintendo's closest Japanese partners. Of course it will be easier to just reach over to a neighbor and ask than to fly overseas for it. Ultimate raised the bar, now we have two western characters in Banjo & Kazooie and Steve. We have a wealth of content from western titles - AAA and indie - via Mii Costumes, spirits, music and Assist Trophies. The sensible conclusion to this is to recognize that we are operating in the right direction, and next game will likely continue to rectify this even further and add at least a couple more via DLC.

We're always going to have more Japanese characters because Smash is a game made in Japan. I don't really care about that, and I'm not making the mistake of holding it to some infallible standard of being a history museum. Smash is a celebration of gaming, but it is not the complete encyclopedia of gaming history and doesn't really claim to be either. There are dozens of assets of gaming history, genre starters and massively famous series that are absent from Smash and will likely continue to be. But it's also been taking steps in the right direction to continue to expand its reach, touch on more worldly phenomenon and brush shoulders with western collaborators. With Microsoft already in their pocket, after these company buyouts, there's rich potential for the picking here and I'd be surprised if we didn't finally get some FPS representation in Smash at least. That isn't to mention the indie series that Smash has already broken the bread with as well as Ubisoft which has had a presence since Smash 4.

But perhaps this just comes down to a difference in values between me and those who think we have been disserved because Nintendo owes it to us to give us Crash Bandicoot. Personally I'm more concerned about the lack of puzzle, FPS, rhythm, VN, horror etc etc present on the roster and I believe new genres open gateways to new audiences and new styles of play. If we want to talk about Smash's failings as a display of video game history, this feels far more important to me than petty east vs west affairs. We like most of the Japanese games they added just as much as the Japanese do, so I don't have an issue.

See, what confuses me about this line of thought is that we've seen through stuff like Spirits, Mii Costumes, and even the Rayman and CommanderVideo trophies in Smash 4 that Nintendo are willing to go out of their way and communicate with Western companies over minor stuff like this. Even then, most Western games are lucky to GET a Mii Costume, let alone anything substantial like a fighter or Assist Trophy. Given all this, it seems to me like a blatant case of preferential treatment more than a purely logistical affair. I don't even care much for the issue from a numerical standpoint and acknowledge that there will always be a hefty imbalance since most of the characters are from Nintendo, I just don't dig how people act like a character can't be in the game if they aren't popular in a single country.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Dr. Wright's trophy in Melee

I think Nintendo fully owns the rights to that character, EA's never been credited in any Smash game for owning SimCity.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I think Nintendo fully owns the rights to that character, EA's never been credited in any Smash game for owning SimCity.

My bad, then. In that case, the trend seems to have started with Smash 4 unless we count the Tetris tracks from Brawl or the Cloaking Device/Motion-Sensor Bomb from Melee.

 

[AlRex]

I agree that both more Western games and more games of different/new genres would be welcome, I welcome this kind of stuff.

On a semi-related note, I also do prefer that if they reach into the first party well more, that they go with series new to being playable in Smash more often. There are a handful of characters from series already in that’d be fun, but most of the ones I can think of that are popular are fairly derivative, much as that is, well, unpopular to say. I’d enjoy everything from fairly requested ones like Golden Sun and Rhythm Heaven, slightly less requested but still recurring ones like Advance Wars, Custom Robo, Panel de Pon, ExciteBike, and even odd ones, old and new, like Hanafuda or Game Builder Garage. Go wild and get fairly inventive, that’s my general thought. That’s probably the main thing that might be lost with the third party focus for hype, and will end up making them more exciting to me specifically, because those will be the main other recognizable names they can use, aside from if Nintendo can keep making new series big hits like Splatoon or if they can revive an older series well enough. It can vary, though.

 

[Quillion]

you should watch the reviewer yhatzee

He's like the Roger Ebert of video games, so that's pretty much a compliment.

 

[fogbadge]

I can confirm that yes, Bandai-Namco is behind most of Digimon's mistreatment, but at the same time, they do still try to keep it alive because they profit out of it.

That said, Toei isn't an innocent paragon in this, they've been desperately trying to recapture the lightning in a bottle that was Digimon Adventure, and the result is doing plenty of Adventure-related projects with questionable quality, and in the case of new shows, just struggling to write a continous plot as well as early seasons, or trying to make an almost fully episodic show until they're like "oh right, we must write a finale". I liked Ghost Game, but it suffered a lot from this.

Even so, BN are the ones that move the merchandise, and they have a VERY strained relationship with Toei in general with what they want to do. And what they want is to push merch after merch after merch while throwing darts at a board to see what works while failing to understand what people want.

This not only applies to Digimon, ask fans of any other active franchise they own like Gundam or Kamen Rider, but in the case of Digimon as an example, back in 2019, they were selling a brand new V-Pet with a web storyline of some pretty important lore people going against each other, and it was going well... Then BN sawing the success, said "PANDER TO ADVENTURE AND TAMERS NOSTALGIA! NOW!" and destroyed what little that web story had to put in sub-plots of Adventure and Tamers related Digimon in hopes it would sell even more.

So yes, BN doesn't hates Digimon... They just have no actual idea how to handle the IP. And Toei isn't helping matters with how they just keep nostalgia pandering or thinking lower of any potential new audience.

sounds to me like most franchises out there. the fans are angry, the creators don't know how to fix that.

as for nostalgia pandering, well that's just the standard for the entertainment industry. so I can only assume you both think every franchise is being mishandled

 

[Digital Hazard]

sounds to me like most franchises out there. the fans are angry, the creators don't know how to fix that.

as for nostalgia pandering, well that's just the standard for the entertainment industry. so I can only assume you both think every franchise is being mishandled

The problem with the nostalgia pandering in regards to Digimon is as said before: the questionable stuff Toei makes.

Transformers is also a franchise that currently lives by nostalgia pandering, but at least its current toylines tend to offer mostly decent product and the current fictions range from okay (RotB), decent (Earthspark) to very good (Skybound comics), it says something when the worst is Netflix's War for Cybertron show that even that had a few good ideas and remains at least a little better than their previous attempt at a "mature" show (Prime Wars). All of those had nostalgia pandering to G1 and/or Beast Wars. heck the Legacy toyline is all about that to even more past product of the franchise (Animated, Armada) and there's people that criticize that, but at least the product is objectively far from the worst.

Digimon? Digimon Adventure tri. from 2015 had barely any good story in an enormous roller-coaster that starts well only to dig itself deeper and deeper into becoming a terrible mess that no one likes. Even the Japanese fans didn't like it, and people there tend to be complacent with anything (why you think so much isekai exist?). The sequel film, Kizuna is the most decent recent attempt, and it still contradicts a lot of lore stablished in the Adventure-verse and answers nothing from tri. The reboot from 2020 is okay but had a mess of a finale and didn't understand that the original is so beloved becuase how it took its time to develop all characters. Lastly there's Last Evolution, which promised to focus on the Adventure 02 cast... Only to instead focus on an OC and retcon EVERYTHING that happened before into being the result of said OC messing up as a kid

I can live with nostalgia pandering so long the product offered is at least decent, but Toei just doesn't knows how to do it in regards to Digimon.

 

[fogbadge]

The problem with the nostalgia pandering in regards to Digimon is as said before: the questionable stuff Toei makes.

Transformers is also a franchise that currently lives by nostalgia pandering, but at least its current toylines tend to offer mostly decent product and the current fictions range from okay (RotB), decent (Earthspark) to very good (Skybound comics), it says something when the worst is Netflix's War for Cybertron show that even that had a few good ideas and remains at least a little better than their previous attempt at a "mature" show (Prime Wars). All of those had nostalgia pandering to G1 and/or Beast Wars. heck the Legacy toyline is all about that to even more past product of the franchise (Animated, Armada) and there's people that criticize that, but at least the product is objectively far from the worst.

Digimon? Digimon Adventure tri. from 2015 had barely any good story is an enormous roller-coaster that starts well only to dig itself deeper and deeper into becoming a terrible mess that no one likes. Even the Japanese fans didn't like it, and people there tend to be complacent with anything (why you think so much isekai exist?). The sequel film, Kizuna is the most decent recent attempt, and it still contradicts a lot of lore stablished in the Adventure-verse and answers nothing from tri. The reboot from 2020 is okay but had a mess of a finale and didn't understand that the original is so beloved becuase how it took its time to develop all characters. Lastly there's Last Evolution, which promised to focus on the Adventure 02 cast... Only to instead focus in an OC and retcon EVERYTHING that happened before into being the result of said OC messing up as a kid

I can live with nostalgia pandering so long the product offered is at least decent, but Toei just doesn't knows how to do it in regards to Digimon.

no you didn’t like tri, doesn’t mean everyone hates it.

 

[Digital Hazard]

no you didn’t like tri, doesn’t mean everyone hates it.

No, it's widely panned. Just ask about any Digimon community.

Even Digimon the Movie is much more liked, even if just by nostalgia and with people admitting it's a mess.

 

[fogbadge]

No, it's widely panned. Just ask about any Digimon community.

Even Digimon the Movie is much more liked, even if just by nostalgia and with people admitting it's a mess.

I'm sorry but the entire argument that the franchise is being mishandled is based on the fact that you didn't like things isn't good enough as proof. and saying that people agree with you doesn't make it objectively bad either. honestly both you and golden just sound like a couple of irate fans different than most other fandoms. so I will not be accepting that BN is mishandling the franchise when you best argument is "I didn't like and neither did these guys"

 

[HyperSomari64]

Please, let's move on from this Digimon dilemma, and talk in this thread.
This has nothing to do with Smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm sorry but the entire argument that the franchise is being mishandled is based on the fact that you didn't like things isn't good enough as proof. and saying that people agree with you doesn't make it objectively bad either. honestly both you and golden just sound like a couple of irate fans different than most other fandoms. so I will not be accepting that BN is mishandling the franchise when you best argument is "I didn't like and neither did these guys"

Dude. You do the exact opposite every day on this site.

You're constantly going "I like it so it's fine."

Conversely you constantly do what you're saying Digital Hazard is doing to Bayonetta and Daisy.

It's like you're just trying to find arguments.

 

[fogbadge]

Dude. You do the exact opposite every day on this site.

You're constantly going "I like it so it's fine."

Conversely you constantly do what you're saying Digital Hazard is doing to Bayonetta and Daisy.

It's like you're just trying to find arguments.

and everyone tells me I’m wrong so surely I’m just doing what everyone else does

 

[RykZyk]

In anycase -it'd be better to just hope that maybe in the future, Konami has the guts to explore bringing back Goemon as a core IP and kickstart a revival for it like they did with Getsu Fuma Den a while ago. Would feel more gradual and confident from their end and show they're not seeing it as some retro IP solely for cameos anymore.

Yeah, i honestly agree despite being a hard truth. Damn, i really wished that Flopnami Konami made at least a remake of any of the Goemon games, his literally only reason why his chances are so low is his inactivity in almost 2 decades, and unlike some other irrelevant characters, he's not a popular request, not even in Japan for some reason... But yeah i still think Goemon, despite being an amazing idea, it's one of those things that we are better not expecting.

 

[Quillion]

and everyone tells me I’m wrong so surely I’m just doing what everyone else does

You acknowledge that you're discussing poorly like everyone else, yet you make no effort to improve.

I know you think it's just cynicism, but it looks to me like ego-feeding.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

The whole Western VS East-arguments here has me really wish Sony had got it's butt together and managed to handle PSABR-series better. That could have continued as a more defacto crossover designated around the Eastern and Western VG franchises colliding together - sometimes to kooky results as we had seen in that games' stage concepts that meld two franchises together.

I don't even care much for the issue from a numerical standpoint and acknowledge that there will always be a hefty imbalance since most of the characters are from Nintendo, I just don't dig how people act like a character can't be in the game if they aren't popular in a single country.

It would still end up mattering major degree when eventually it comes time to explore the final 3rd party picks for DLC - as the net casted would only get wider and wider when we venture deeper to Western IP/company side of things.
Not only would Smash-team have to negotiate and collaborate well with their owners on how to best represent them not just to the original fanbases in West globe, but also to majority of Japanese who'd be pretty unfamiliar with them depending how little presence some Western series has. That's going to be extra more work to justify pouring good bit of money on licensing.

I feel BanjoKazooie ended chosen due how their former Nintendo-roots allowing much easier working on implementing them as I'm guessing Nintendo got to look along over this series back in the day before - and it had games in Japan too, even if IIRC cult classicish side with a small fanbase. Minecraft is meanwhile in same level of recognizability and pop-culture status for Gen Alphas and Zoomies as Mario was prior to them.
Another case could be how Crash would be more preferential over Spyro, who had his games not reach the same popularity as former did and eventually got discontinued there.

There's also how Smash itself has long avoided adding in characters to the roster that'd come from primarily Japan-only parts of Nintendo's catalogue, aside from one major exception way back in Melee - yet even there it could have been in it's way to cutting room floor region-wise if it weren't for western playtesters ending up liking the characters featured. ( ).

I feel this is why it's just been much easier to appeal at Westerners via smaller acknowledgements such as Mii Costumes or other NPC/cosmetic-based cameos - it's just much harder to justify marketing Western IPs to Japanese side of things incase the IP itself doesn't seem to be as big for Japanese demographic to justify having to market it for them due being a foreign IP to them. And we've seen how to majority getting acknowledged with these smaller roles has been a major win to their side - just look how much indie characters have gotten congratulated and celebrated in Smash, especially with the Deluxe Mii Costumes given to them that make them feel step up more passionately worked on than those without.
(-> <-)

 

[fogbadge]

You acknowledge that you're discussing poorly like everyone else, yet you make no effort to improve.

I know you think it's just cynicism, but it looks to me like ego-feeding.

you know that's pretty much what I feel you do on here. so forgive if I find it hard to take judgment from someone with a selective world view like yourself

 

[Quillion]

you know that's pretty much what I feel you do on here. so forgive if I find it hard to take judgment from someone with a selective world view like yourself

Yeah, I hear you. I do have a bad habit of discussing on this forum when I'm enraged.

 

[Ze Diglett]

The whole Western VS East-arguments here has me really wish Sony had got it's butt together and managed to handle PSABR-series better. That could have continued as a more defacto crossover designated around the Eastern and Western VG franchises colliding together - sometimes to kooky results as we had seen in that games' stage concepts that meld two franchises together.

It would still end up mattering major degree when eventually it comes time to explore the final 3rd party picks for DLC - as the net casted would only get wider and wider when we venture deeper to Western IP/company side of things.
Not only would Smash-team have to negotiate and collaborate well with their owners on how to best represent them not just to the original fanbases in West globe, but also to majority of Japanese who'd be pretty unfamiliar with them depending how little presence some Western series has. That's going to be extra more work to justify pouring good bit of money on licensing.

I feel BanjoKazooie ended chosen due how their former Nintendo-roots allowing much easier working on implementing them as I'm guessing Nintendo got to look along over this series back in the day before - and it had games in Japan too, even if IIRC cult classicish side with a small fanbase. Minecraft is meanwhile in same level of recognizability and pop-culture status for Gen Alphas and Zoomies as Mario was prior to them.
Another case could be how Crash would be more preferential over Spyro, who had his games not reach the same popularity as former did and eventually got discontinued there.

There's also how Smash itself has long avoided adding in characters to the roster that'd come from primarily Japan-only parts of Nintendo's catalogue, aside from one major exception way back in Melee - yet even there it could have been in it's way to cutting room floor region-wise if it weren't for western playtesters ending up liking the characters featured. ( ).

I feel this is why it's just been much easier to appeal at Westerners via smaller acknowledgements such as Mii Costumes or other NPC/cosmetic-based cameos - it's just much harder to justify marketing Western IPs to Japanese side of things incase the IP itself doesn't seem to be as big for Japanese demographic to justify having to market it for them due being a foreign IP to them. And we've seen how to majority getting acknowledged with these smaller roles has been a major win to their side - just look how much indie characters have gotten congratulated and celebrated in Smash, especially with the Deluxe Mii Costumes given to them that make them feel step up more passionately worked on than those without.
(-> <-)

Eh... I'm still not convinced this is a fully objective assessment. They rolled out the red carpet for Hero despite most of the industrialized world barely knowing what Dragon Quest is; did they not have to put in the extra work to market that character's inclusion to the rest of the world to the point of stapling his reveal to an ad for the most recent DQ game? I highly doubt it's a case of pure pragmatism, at least no further than the issue of communication, which a global company like Nintendo should have little trouble with. Businessman though I may not be, surely it's easier on paper to market a character to one country than the other 99% of the world's population. The Japanese crowd allegedly scratched their heads over Ridley due to his regional popularity to the point of calling him "Captain America" over there, but the decision to add him was globally pretty popular regardless. I'm not opposed to regionally focused picks on principle, but the focus does seem pretty heftily placed on specifically a Japanese audience out of what I can only assume is a case of the devs' blindspots and biases getting the better of them. That alone is excusable, if not ideal, but I think when people online say stuff like "you should be happy for [X character] since they're big in Japan," they need to check their own biases at the door.

 

[Louie G.]

Eh... I'm still not convinced this is a fully objective assessment. They rolled out the red carpet for Hero despite most of the industrialized world barely knowing what Dragon Quest is; did they not have to put in the extra work to market that character's inclusion to the rest of the world to the point of stapling his reveal to an ad for the most recent DQ game? I highly doubt it's a case of pure pragmatism, at least no further than the issue of communication, which a global company like Nintendo should have no trouble with. I'm no businessman, but surely it's easier on paper to market a character to one country than the other 99% of the world's population.

Projecting this argument so heavily toward Hero of all characters feels misguided to me because that's... kind of on you, I feel? I knew what Dragon Quest was for years, I never played the games as a kid (and hardly many RPGs) but I saw commercials and read Nintendo Power and just saw them sitting around on shelves at GameStop. I knew what the Slime was, and I was aware it had actually crossed over with Mario more than a few times. It's not some totally obscure series here, and I'm so confused why everyone wants to present it as such. It's just THAT much bigger in Japan that it eclipses the popularity in the west, but that doesn't mean that notoriety doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, a comparison may be that Sonic the Hedgehog is a far bigger phenomenon here than it had ever been in Japan, but the brand is still active and known out there. It was just never so overwhelmingly abundant.

But yeah, I feel like people in the community fell for the "big in Japan" meme too hard with Hero because they started to act like it meant they were some obscurity in America / Europe. I find it somewhat baffling that people brush shoulders with Nintendo consoles all their lives and were never exposed to Dragon Quest, let alone anyone who is aware of the existence of a certain Akira Toriyama. That's without even going into how DQ paved the way for series that ARE massively popular in America, like Pokemon. Mind you, I'm not saying DQ was a smash hit over here. But this is framed like DQ is an outright dud here equivalent to the way western properties like say, Rayman (sorry) is a complete non-entity overseas. Or Mortal Kombat, which is largely barred from being sold at all. Dragon Quest is not like that.

You don't need to be happy about it, I was largely indifferent to Hero when he was revealed. I just think your argument is kind of justifying ignorance, to be honest. If gamers don't know a series as influential as Dragon Quest, which is responsible for practically every RPG represented in Smash Bros existing at all, then maybe they should learn about it. If we're going to hang on this idea that Smash needs to do a better job representing the collective scope of video game history then I don't see why the grand daddy of RPGs is a contentious topic.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

DQ not having the same impact as some doesn't make it relatively unknown in the West, yeah. It's a really silly notion. It still is a very highly notable series, but obviously won't be as recognizable, as say, Final Fantasy here. I knew it early on cause I grew up with the NES and the first two Dragon Warrior games. I never even got a chance to play III till wayyyyyyyy later. No less other games beyond the first three Dragon Quest Monster games(which I own two out of three. That said, the second and third games are like Pokemon, with a relatively same experience for the dual copies. So I understand Tara's Adventure reasonably well due to playing Cobi's Journey). To note, I otherwise played a bit of 11's demo, but that's honestly 6 total Dragon Warrior/Quest games I played in any fashion. Maybe I simply prefer the older grindy games or something? I dunno.

But either way, comparing it to Mortal Kombat and Rayman is... no. It's definitely a bigger series worldwide. MK obviously has a bigger impact in the West, but it has relatively none in the East. ...DQ still had an impact in the West. The comparison doesn't work. Rayman is a cool series, but yeah, it's not even on MK or DQ levels in its most popular region(nor are Rabbids, though they did get some neat stuff on its own that Rayman has yet to. It might do with them having the more unique concepts that work well as a comedy TV show that Rayman simply didn't. Not that it couldn't have a good show, just it's not structured nicely towards comedy in particular).

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Dragon Quest games were really easy to come by in the 2000s/2010s in the UK, and got very good marketing pushes (I specifically remember a two-page promo in an issue of The Beano that, fitting with that whole anti-authoritarian school-sucks Dennis the Menace tone, hyped up the whole "banned from releasing on weekdays" thing lmao; the Rocket Slime (was that its name?) spin-off got a lot of hype in the kiddie gaming magazines of the time too.) - Slime is a pretty ubiquitously recognised character as well. Whether it worked I'm not sure, I didn't have any "nerd peers" until my teenhood, but I find it a bit ridiculous to suggest DQ is a non-entity - this isn't Power Pros we're talking about. I also remember a lot of Dragon Warrior love in the 80s-nostalgia-era internet.

 

[Louie G.]

But either way, comparing it to Mortal Kombat and Rayman is... no. It's definitely a bigger series worldwide. MK obviously has a bigger impact in the West, but it has relatively none in the East. ...DQ still had an impact in the West. The comparison doesn't work. Rayman is a cool series, but yeah, it's not even on MK or DQ levels in its most popular region(nor are Rabbids, though they did get some neat stuff on its own that Rayman has yet to. It might do with them having the more unique concepts that work well as a comedy TV show that Rayman simply didn't. Not that it couldn't have a good show, just it's not structured nicely towards comedy in particular).

To be fair to Diglett, I was the one who brought up these two to prove a point about what extreme skewed regional popularity looks like. I don’t think anyone directly compared their situations, at least I hope not.

Wario’s allusion to Power Pros is probably the most effective, actually. Because there are series with monumentous presence in Japan and virtually none overseas… those are also the series that don’t yet have characters on the roster.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Also, speaking on Rayman - I think "Rayman is more popular in Europe" does apply to the UK (can't speak for anywhere else), but it doesn't apply as much as some people believe. He is well-known to casual, ex- and non-gamers from the 90s, but considered on the same level as characters like Croc and Bubsy (who are very fondly remembered by their original demographics, even as an open and unironic Bubsy fan it's sometimes shocking to see just how passionate UK adults are about him and unaware they are of his modern reputation, so that is not me saying "Rayman is considered forgettable", moreso "Rayman isn't Sonic") - we don't have massive Rayman merchandising or anything. Rabbids was very popular for a time though, the "bunnies can dance" advert would be licensed for airing on the otherwise non-commercial CBBC on occasion, (possibly as part of Chute? That was basically a tax-funded meme clip show.) and I anecdotaly remember my non-retro-gaming peers seeking out the older Rayman games because of how much they liked the Rabbids.

I've said this many times before, but if you wanted to court the UK market for Smash for whatever reason, but didn't want to devote to putting in potentially-locally-isolating Commodore 64/ZX Spectrum content, you'd want to go with Crash Bandicoot or Alex Kidd. Those two are gargantuan presences here, and on the same level as Sonic to nostalgic adult audiences. (Spyro's on that level here too... but, you know)

 

[Ze Diglett]

Projecting this argument so heavily toward Hero of all characters feels misguided to me because that's... kind of on you, I feel? I knew what Dragon Quest was for years, I never played the games as a kid (and hardly many RPGs) but I saw commercials and read Nintendo Power and just saw them sitting around on shelves at GameStop. I knew what the Slime was, and I was aware it had actually crossed over with Mario more than a few times. It's not some totally obscure series here, and I'm so confused why everyone wants to present it as such. It's just THAT much bigger in Japan that it eclipses the popularity in the west, but that doesn't mean that notoriety doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, a comparison may be that Sonic the Hedgehog is a far bigger phenomenon here than it had ever been in Japan, but the brand is still active and known out there. It was just never so overwhelmingly abundant.

But yeah, I feel like people in the community fell for the "big in Japan" meme too hard with Hero because they started to act like it meant they were some obscurity in America. I find it somewhat baffling that people brush shoulders with Nintendo consoles all their lives and were never exposed to Dragon Quest, let alone anyone who is aware of the existence of a certain Akira Toriyama. That's without even going into how DQ paved the way for series that ARE massively popular in America, like Pokemon. Mind you, I'm not saying DQ was a smash hit over here. But this is framed like DQ is an outright dud here equivalent to the way western properties like say, Rayman (sorry) is a complete non-entity overseas. Or Mortal Kombat, which is largely barred from being sold at all. Dragon Quest is not like that.

It may be partially since I admittedly heard little to no mention of Dragon Quest in my entire life prior to the whole "brave" datamine, and that was with me being unhealthy engrossed in gaming and gaming discourse since I was old enough to hold a controller. That said, when the series pretty consistently performed poorly outside Japan to the point that it was not long ago in question whether the games would continue to be localized at all, I feel there's at least some objective backing to the assessment that DQ is, or at the very least was until recently, obscure in the West. Maybe I'm wrong, but either way it has little bearing on my opinion that Smash fans who otherwise have no attachment to the series are pretty weird about defending the whole thing. (I still get HOES MAD flashbacks, to be quite honest.)

Hell, the whole Sonic debacle might be an even more egregious case than anything I've brought up. Poor guy's gotten, what, one stage and an Assist Trophy since his debut in Brawl? You're telling me nobody even wants to give the guy a remix? If the game were made with a more balanced perspective, I'm fairly certain Sonic would at least have a second character by now, what with the series' global stature and how many obvious candidates there are. (Shoot, if we're talking pure icon status, Eggman might be the most glaring omission thus far. I will die on the hill that not making him a WoL boss was the blunder of the century.)

You don't need to be happy about it, I was largely indifferent to Hero when he was revealed. I just think your argument is kind of justifying ignorance, to be honest. If gamers don't know a series as influential as Dragon Quest, which is responsible for practically every RPG represented in Smash Bros existing at all, then maybe they should learn about it. If we're going to hang on this idea that Smash needs to do a better job representing the collective scope of video game history then I don't see why the grand daddy of RPGs is a contentious topic.

You're free to think that. I don't claim to know much about Dragon Quest specifically. On the contrary, I feel the people who parrot the "big in Japan" meme think they know more about not just Japanese culture, but gaming culture in general than they really do. We can agree to disagree on the matter of the grandaddy of all JRPGs, but I think that's a pretty fair opinion to have.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

If there's any 3P in Smash that's a non-entity in the UK, it is Banjo (ironically a British character). I have met Banjo fans, but typically the response to mentioning Banjo is "uhh... yeah, I know that one" or "is that the one with the Great Mighty Poo?", and the Banjo fans I've met have also been multiplatform PS1 owners who were equally nostalgic for Crash and Spyro. Rare Replay topped a few charts, but I'd personally attribute that to being one of the very few ports of ZX Spectrum games to modern hardware - Rare is not a well-known gaming brand in the UK, but Ultimate Play the Game is. Conker's retroactive popularity is a lot stronger than Banjo's from what I've observed (BFD copies are actually very common in second-hand stores, and I'm sure I've seen more BFD cartridges than any Banjo game in person, though their prices are predictably absurd), but even he is a niche cult character as he is elsewhere.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You're telling me nobody even wants to give the guy a remix?

That is actually due to Sega licensing being very particular. There's a reason that the only Sonic remix we have is from one of the people who helped make that soundtrack of the game it's from. Sega doesn't actually own a lot of their soundtracks like other companies do. They actually had some difficulty working with the Green Hill Zone theme at times.

That said, I don't know if this is a great comparison either. Aside from his moveset (which is due to rushed development and then a hesitation to change), Sonic has it better than most third parties. Lots of music, two stages, two assist trophies and a comprehensive list of spirits. I know people look at representation in regards to non characters stuff differently, but Sonic is doing fine. And this is coming from a lifelong fan who stuck with the franchise through the dark times and then the second dark times that weren't actually dark times but Sonic fans be cringe sometimes. Also, Japan still likes Sonic a lot. He's not a huge giant like he is in the West, but they definitely know and love him.

A second Sonic character is definitely warranted, especially if they continue to branch out with already included third party franchises. But I don't think it's being shafted in regards to characters at all. Ken and Richter were the first two secondary characters from a third party franchise and they were echoes. Those are always going to be different circumstances. That leaves Final Fantasy as the only third party franchise with two unique characters. And yeah I can see why.

Final Fantasy is a much bigger IP than Sonic in terms of gaming (it sells a LOT more). It has more rounded international appeal (in that everyone loves it) and Sephiroth's resume should speak for itself. We just got our first character like this. Sonic isn't being shafted yet. If they continue to add characters like Sephiroth and Sonic continues to get nothing, than I might feel differently, but as of now I think it's being treated much better than the likes of Metal Gear, Pac-Man, Street Fighter, Bayonetta, Persona and Dragon Quest.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Conker's Bad Fur Day is also a game that really stands out among platformers. Its style is not heavily copied or used as inspiration in the way Banjo-Kazooie, Mario, and Sonic are. So it having some more popularity can make sense. It simply has a niche that is rarely delved into.

To be fair to Diglett, I was the one who brought up these two to prove a point about what extreme skewed regional popularity looks like. I don’t think anyone directly compared their situations, at least I hope not.

Wario’s allusion to Power Pros is probably the most effective, actually. Because there are series with monumentous presence in Japan and virtually none overseas… those are also the series that don’t yet have characters on the roster.

Right. But overall, yeah, there's clearly different levels of niche, heh.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If there's any 3P in Smash that's a non-entity in the UK, it is Banjo (ironically a British character). I have met Banjo fans, but typically the response to mentioning Banjo is "uhh... yeah, I know that one" or "is that the one with the Great Mighty Poo?", and the Banjo fans I've met have also been multiplatform PS1 owners who were equally nostalgic for Crash and Spyro. Rare Replay topped a few charts, but I'd personally attribute that to being one of the very few ports of ZX Spectrum games to modern hardware - Rare is not a well-known gaming brand in the UK, but Ultimate Play the Game is. Conker's retroactive popularity is a lot stronger than Banjo's from what I've observed (BFD copies are actually very common in second-hand stores, and I'm sure I've seen more BFD cartridges than any Banjo game in person, though their prices are predictably absurd), but even he is a niche cult character as he is elsewhere.

Honestly I would love to hear about more games that are more popular in the UK.

Not in regards to Smash but in general.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Thinking about it, yeah Sonic might be the best inverse comparison to DQ. Liked in Japan with most games getting released there, but nothing matching the sheer multimedia/merch/legacy empire that Sonic in the US and the UK. The fact that a major movie studio essentially backtracked on a design and spent millions to change it because mass audiences rejected it speaks to the series' impact even if the game sales can be a bit modest.

 

[Ze Diglett]

That is actually due to Sega licensing being very particular. There's a reason that the only Sonic remix we have is from one of the people who helped make that soundtrack of the game it's from. Sega doesn't actually own a lot of their soundtracks like other companies do. They actually had some difficulty working with the Green Hill Zone theme at times.

That said, I don't know if this is a great comparison either. Aside from his moveset (which is due to rushed development and then a hesitation to change), Sonic has it better than most third parties. Lots of music, two stages, two assist trophies and a comprehensive list of spirits. I know people look at representation in regards to non characters stuff differently, but Sonic is doing fine. And this is coming from a lifelong fan who stuck with the franchise through the dark times and then the second dark times that weren't actually dark times but Sonic fans be cringe sometimes. Also, Japan still likes Sonic a lot. He's not a huge giant like he is in the West, but they definitely know and love him.

A second Sonic character is definitely warranted, especially if they continue to branch out with already included third party franchises. But I don't think it's being shafted in regards to characters at all. Ken and Richter were the first two secondary characters from a third party franchise and they were echoes. Those are always going to be different circumstances. That leaves Final Fantasy as the only third party franchise with two unique characters. And yeah I can see why.

Final Fantasy is a much bigger IP than Sonic in terms of gaming. It has more rounded international appeal (in that everyone loves it) and Sephiroth's resume should speak for itself. We just got our first character like this. Sonic isn't being shafted yet. If they continue to add characters like Sephiroth and Sonic continues to get nothing, than I might feel differently, but as of now I think it's being treated much better than the likes of Metal Gear, Pac-Man, Street Fighter, Bayonetta, Persona and Dragon Quest.

Fair enough, if that's the case. I actually didn't know that about Sonic's music. That really sucks, considering the music is the one part of Sonic games people can agree is good.

I've long been a proponent of the idea that alternative forms of representation matter, but like... even from that perspective, Sonic's been weirdly stagnant. He's got two stages, sure, but they're both the same genre of "Green Hill Zone." (And one of them's from Lost World which, even if you like the game, isn't a great representation of Sonic by any stretch.) Adding Knuckles to the assist roster is cool, but then there's a bunch of similarly iconic characters who just... don't appear except as JPEGs. Sure, the first two third-party series to get second characters were as Echoes, but you say that like Sonic didn't have an incredibly obvious candidate for an Echo that left many scratching their heads when he was revealed as an AT. Yes, Shadow would be better as a unique fighter than an Echo, but the DNA is there if they really wanted to.

Honestly, those other series you mentioned at least have an excuse given they've only been here for a game or two (more like half a game in the case of Persona and Dragon Quest). Sonic's got a perfect attendance record as far as third-parties go and has gotten what feels like table scraps on a per-game basis, which is to say nothing of the moveset people want reworked so badly.

 

[MasterCheef]

my new best Smash 6 roster. i was able tio make room for 5 more characters
.

( SSB Rumble ) ; tagline = Everyone can play.

Mini Games = attracting casuals , overwhelmed by regular game-play
1 = ( Obstacle & Maze races ) , 2 = Volleyball , 3 = Mini-Golf

New Mode = Tag Team , = can swap between 2 characters during game-play

Ultra Special meter = charges via ; dealing ( damage & knock-back )

Numbers = character slots , & , ( 61 total playable characters )

1 , 2 , 3 = Mario , ( Luigi = echo ) , Peach , ( Daisy = echo ) , & , Yoshi
4 , & , 5 = Bowser , & , Wario
6 , & , 7 , & , 8 = Donkey Kong , & , Diddy Kong , & , King K Rool
9 , & , 10 , & , 11 , & , 12 = Link , & , Zelda , & , Impa , & , Ganondorf
13 , & , 14 = Samus , ( Dark Samus = echo ) , & , Ridley
15 , & , 16 = Kirby , & King DeDeDe
17 , 18 , & , 19 = Pikachu , & , Gholdengo , & , Iron Valiant
20 = Pokemon Trainer : Chesnaught , Quaquaval , Incineroar
21 , & , 22 = Pit , ( Dark Pit = echo ) , & , Palutena
23 = Mii Brawler , & , Mii Gunner , & , Mii Sword Mage
24 = Isabelle , ( Animal Crossing )
25 & 26 = Byleth & Alear ( Fire Emblem )
27 , 28 , 29 = Shulk , & ,( Pyra + Mythra ) , & , Noah + ( Mio = echo )
30 = Inkling , & , ( Octoling = Echo ) Splatoon
31 = Officer Howard – Astral Chain
32 = Ring Fit Trainee
33 = Tabuu

Base 3rd party

34 = Sonic
35 = Pac-Man
36 = Kazuya
37 = codename : Legacy = XenoBlade Origins : protagonist
38 = Yumia ( Ryza & Marie = Alts ) = Atelier , via , Koei Tecmo
39 = Monster Hunter , via , Capcom ; MHST2 , design
40 = New ( Tales of ) rep from New ( Tales of ) game , via , Bandai Namco
41 = Harvard , from ; Deca Police
42 = Effy, from ; Starlight Re:Volver
43 = Techter ; Phantasy Star Online 2 New Genesis
44 = Crash Bandicoot , via ; Activision
45 = Vault Boy

DLC

46 , & , 47 = ( Ahri & Lux ) - League of Legends , via Riot Games
48 = ( Soul Calibur ) Rep ; NOT Nightmare
49 = Dwarf , from ; World of Warcraft
50 = Octopath III rep
51 = New PokeMon Rep
52 = New Resident Evil Rep
53 = New Final Fantasy Rep
54 , & , 55 = Master Chief & Arbiter ( Halo )

 

[fogbadge]

Dragon Quest games were really easy to come by in the 2000s/2010s in the UK, and got very good marketing pushes (I specifically remember a two-page promo in an issue of The Beano that, fitting with that whole anti-authoritarian school-sucks Dennis the Menace tone, hyped up the whole "banned from releasing on weekdays" thing lmao; the Rocket Slime (was that its name?) spin-off got a lot of hype in the kiddie gaming magazines of the time too.) - Slime is a pretty ubiquitously recognised character as well. Whether it worked I'm not sure, I didn't have any "nerd peers" until my teenhood, but I find it a bit ridiculous to suggest DQ is a non-entity - this isn't Power Pros we're talking about. I also remember a lot of Dragon Warrior love in the 80s-nostalgia-era internet.

that's more than pokemon got

If there's any 3P in Smash that's a non-entity in the UK, it is Banjo (ironically a British character). I have met Banjo fans, but typically the response to mentioning Banjo is "uhh... yeah, I know that one" or "is that the one with the Great Mighty Poo?", and the Banjo fans I've met have also been multiplatform PS1 owners who were equally nostalgic for Crash and Spyro. Rare Replay topped a few charts, but I'd personally attribute that to being one of the very few ports of ZX Spectrum games to modern hardware - Rare is not a well-known gaming brand in the UK, but Ultimate Play the Game is. Conker's retroactive popularity is a lot stronger than Banjo's from what I've observed (BFD copies are actually very common in second-hand stores, and I'm sure I've seen more BFD cartridges than any Banjo game in person, though their prices are predictably absurd), but even he is a niche cult character as he is elsewhere.

I think that's a generational thing, zoomer. millennials all know them

 

[Swaggod7]

Brawl is underrated.

 

[UserKev]

After reading the Goemon discussion, I was severely meh. Mega Man hasn't been exactly relevant in a very long time. Like Mega Man, Goemon inclusion in the roster will entirely depend on legacy.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

After reading the Goemon discussion, I was severely meh. Mega Man hasn't been exactly relevant in a very long time. Like Mega Man, Goemon inclusion in the roster will entirely depend on legacy.

Mega Man's much bigger and expansive IP with hotly enduring fanbase still campaigning on the series to come back though - not to mention we got about 2 games in last 5 years (kinda? Megaman X Dive is an odd beast due it's origin...)

Not something you could say about Goemon who's pretty much had it's much smaller fanbase gather to more confined spaces as no new games have been made for the series for almost twenty years now.

It's feels pretty similar observing the general non-preference to C-List Nintendo-IPs vs flagship ones we see in Smash but with 3rd Parties - legacy's there definitely but the general reach in videogaming pop culture today isn't due obscurity. It's why Sakurai's passed on Takamaru and Ayumi Tachibana before, something I feel can be said about rest of obscure reps that he put as Assists often.

 

[fogbadge]

Mega Man's much bigger and expansive IP with hotly enduring fanbase still campaigning on the series to come back though - not to mention we got about 2 games in last 5 years (kinda? Megaman X Dive is an odd beast due it's origin...)

Not something you could say about Goemon who's pretty much had it's much smaller fanbase gather to more confined spaces as no new games have been made for the series for almost twenty years now.

It's feels pretty similar observing the general non-preference to C-List Nintendo-IPs vs flagship ones we see in Smash but with 3rd Parties - legacy's there definitely but the general reach in videogaming pop culture today isn't due obscurity. It's why Sakurai's passed on Takamaru and Ayumi Tachibana before, something I feel can be said about rest of obscure reps that he put as Assists often.

no he said he passed on those two due to japan exclusivity

 

[Perkilator]

Honestly, if I was making the next Smash game then I would absolutely NOT try to appeal to the people in the competitive community who think old movesets are too “iconic” to leave behind. I’m sorry, but their definition of “iconic” is NOT more important than changing a moveset for the better.