Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Swamp Sensei]

where it's never called out for being "just an ad" outside of when it does Byleth/Pythra type picks,

I would argue those aren't "just an add" type picks either.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I would argue those aren't "just an add" type picks either.

I wasn't speaking about my own opinion there, I was speaking about the general cultural perception of Smash in relation to being a marketing tool

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I find it a bit weird how people say Astro Bot is "just a giant ad", but give Smash the benefit of the doubt - considering Astro Bot doesn't use the character or game names at all, and treats the characters more like fun cameos than Smash's all-important vibe (even though, yes, by all means playable Smash characters are - or least should be - just cameos). Not that there isn't a marketing element to Astro Bot, but it's very clearly on, if not the lesser end, at least the subtler.

What are they calling it an ad for? Dead IPs?

I kid,I kid - but this is the first time I'm hearing this sort of criticism thrown at Astro Bot- which is bit sad as that game really seems to carry on the fun and imaginative vibes we used to get from IPs of Sony long gone now that it tributes to. (LBP, Parappa, Ape Escape my beloved)

To me, I liken it's use of IPs as cameos more closer to what Super Bomberman R has done with it's various Konami-themed Bombers. Smash Bros is bit of an odd comparison here as it being "an ad" for IPs it features is an on-going perk it's had for them at large.
Like folks said here before, it only rears it's head with Fire Emblem most. Whether we'll see this become a recurring thing for Xenoblade has to yet be seen - I mean, they did skip Xenoblade X during Ultimate...

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Speaking of this third-party character speculation...
Yeah. I'm not a big fan of this thing that many people speculate about the future of Smash Bros becoming an entire gaming museum at the point of including Sony, Valve or Microsoft "exclusive" IPs. i'd rather keep Smash Bros as a Nintendo crossover with some few guests here and there. I just think that Smash Bros being a Nintendo crossover has always been the charm of Smash Bros in the first place. Plus, only focusing on fanservice is a really bad idea in the long term... No matter how much fanservice you put it in - You'll never satisfy everyone. Plus i just really like when they put obscure classic characters that no one expected like R.O.B, or Duck Hunt.

This is just personal opinion, but i've always prefered third-parties that have long-history with Nintendo. It just feels right to have them standing along with the other Nintendo characters. (That's why my top picks are Bomberman and Goemon.)

On that note, I wonder how feasible would it even be to make Sony-characters or other Console-exclusive characters be added to Smash - as that'd would force Sony-console userbase and like to buy a Switch just to get their fix, while on their end Smash Bros will never be on a Playstation or Xbox due Nintendo strictly keeping their IPs out of those systems due them being the cornerstones of their systems selling...

Also yeah, your very point reminds me why I was lowkey anxious that Smash 64 Remix would try to emulate Ultimate and start adding Cloud Strife or similar 3rd Parties that don't really fit with Smash 64's period in likeliness. Glad to now we not only got Goemon, but even Ebisumaru instead later (who's pretty much become my current SSB64-these days...) and Marina Lightyears. They'd never have a chance in hell today in any Smash-title on forward, so I'm glad they finally get to have their time to shine in fan-hack landscape.

Still, I feel like this assumption of "Nintendo-historic 3rd Parties" has been broken long time ago since Cloud Strife appeared in SSB4 - and if it means there'll be more bigger or well-known picks as 3rd Party Reps over possible cult classics or historically relevant to Nintendo-systems... it just can't be helped. The choices need to be thought well in this time and age where Smash has managed to reach so many fanbases and communities in gaming at large - and if going by Byleth-related outcry of negativity with how many were focusing on 3rd Parties of any kind before... it's bit inevitable things will further lean on continuing that direction

I hope to be proven wrong though.


Apologies by the way for double posting.

 

[Guynamednelson]

and if going by Byleth-related outcry of negativity with how many were focusing on 3rd Parties of any kind before... it's bit inevitable things will further lean on continuing that direction

People weren't defaulting to hating Byleth because they were first-party, but rather what kind of first-party they are. Furthermore, there's more focus on third-parties in DLC anyway because it's more profitable for the IP holders than having them in the base game.

...quite frankly I kind of feel like they should greenlight more DLC for Ultimate just because the fanbase is now focused on what DLC is like, rather than base game newcomers. Even those who believe more DLC for SSBU is completely and utterly impossible are focused on who'll join the next game's DLC, which makes speculation feel like Schrodinger's FP3 discussion.

 

[RykZyk]

They'd never have a chance in hell today in any Smash-title on forward, so I'm glad they finally get to have their time to shine in fan-hack landscape.

I don't really think that Goemon has null chances to be in Smash, i mean, yes it's one of those things that we should not be expecting but i don't think he's impossible considering he was a Mii Costume, Sakurai seems to really like his franchise and after all he's still fondly remembered as a retro character in Japan. Honestly i sometimes think that Goemon is one of those characters that should be in Smash Bros, like my god, he has more history with Nintendo than most of the third-parties that got in Ultimate...

Ganbare Goemon series - MobyGames

A series of humorous titles in various genres by Konami starring Goemon, a warrior in feudal Japan who sets out to fight evil. The character is based on the historical Ishikawa Goemon (石川 五右衛門), a...

www.mobygames.com

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

People weren't defaulting to hating Byleth because they were first-party, but rather what kind of first-party they are.

Most likely - but I really believe people wouldn't have been as receptful of first parties from existing series like say, Dixie Kong or even Waluigi as they'd be considered just less "hype" in comparison to the immense clashings of videogame giants with their mascots or iconic reps.

I'm also reminded of sizeable portion of Smash's fanbase still thinking Banjo was an overhyped character with a boring moveset, having only been made notable and pushed by "loud middle-aged Ninty-fans that constantly talked how amazing the series was in Youtube".

Furthermore, there's more focus on third-parties in DLC anyway because it's more profitable for the IP holders than having them in the base game.

Perhaps - but the way it ended completely shifting the overall perception of what Smash Bros to it's playerbase and outside of it, to be now considered "The Celebration of Gaming - The Game" - has only cemented that as most favored direction for the series for majority involved. Would mean steady stream of big profits and major marketing for the IP-holders too.

Putting these two points together, I really feel the focus on 3rd Parties will be more heavily favored in the next installment, as it seems to Sakurai, if staying a supervisor or even a director still, that his series is looking to be scraping the bottom of the barrel in means of roster picks after the mandated pick for Pokemon, foreconcluded inclusions of Fire Emblem Engage + Xenoblade 3-reps, and maybe one rep for Metroid and Zelda each - incase he's not willing to explore recurring long-wanted characters he has traditionally pushed to NPC-roles before.

I guess this is why I'm really hoping for Sakurai to pass his directorial seat to someone else so we can finally explore this series with fresh eyes and blood, perhaps being less averse to these enduring fan-favorite picks - like Waluigi, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong, Captain Toad/Toad, plus handful of obscurer, Assist Item-bound Ninty-reps like Isaac, and so forth. Though we could just end up looking getting more creative never-knew-we-wanted types of characters like Plant or Wii Fit Trainer. Even if I don't share the same opinion.

...quite frankly I kind of feel like they should greenlight more DLC for Ultimate just because the fanbase is now focused on what DLC is like, rather than base game newcomers. Even those who believe more DLC for SSBU is completely and utterly impossible are focused on who'll join the next game's DLC, which makes speculation feel like Schrodinger's FP3 discussion.

I might see this as a possibility incase Smash Ultimate being ported to Switch 2 as either the bridging point between a more conventionally shaking Super Smash Bros. 6 - but I think we had hit the ceiling with the hype by now due Sora. Unless we really need to bring in Reimu Hakurei and maybe even that Fortnite-guy to break it even further. Also maybe have Master Chief on the side, unless we get Dante or DoomGuy be next chars to be upgrade straight from Mii Costume to playable in the same game... sorta.

With SSB6's case, I feel the base roster then would mainly end consisting of the fore-gone picks and maybe a few newer chars for existing franchises.

Having observed how Ridley and K.Rool (and most likely Banjo) ended mainly becoming a reality through the Smash Ballot, while some first-party or 2nd-party chars still long-rallied by certain fanbases got still passed over and/or continue on their given NPC-roles in the series (Bandanna Dee, Waluigi, Dixie Kong, to some lesser extent Toad) --- with some even being brought back just to do that such as Isaac... it has me feel the chances of vocally wanted, "fanservicey" picks from Nintendo's side will be really slim next time around.

I mean, we might maybe get 1 or even 2. All I'm saying is that any "highly requested" picks just haven't been exactly of importance or worth to Sakurai since SSB4-days, explaining why we got a lot of them glossed over or turned to NPCs (Ridley's whole internet fame before Ultimate) - whilst going for more unorthodox or not-as-"obvious" picks from Nintendo's recent or profitable franchises, usually in virtue of finding an interesting moveset or playstyle in them.

I don't really think that Goemon has null chances to be in Smash, i mean, yes it's one of those things that we should not be expecting but i don't think he's impossible considering he was a Mii Costume, Sakurai seems to really like his franchise and after all he's still fondly remembered as a retro character in Japan. Honestly i sometimes think that Goemon is one of those characters that should be in Smash Bros, like my god, he has more history with Nintendo than most of the third-parties that got in Ultimate...

Ganbare Goemon series - MobyGames

A series of humorous titles in various genres by Konami starring Goemon, a warrior in feudal Japan who sets out to fight evil. The character is based on the historical Ishikawa Goemon (石川 五右衛門), a...

www.mobygames.com

I frankly think Mii Costume is all Goemon gets going onward.

The series has been in total purgatory since 2005, and since then, he's only been relevant in pachinko-games and/or being a designated retro guest character/cameo in other Konami's games - with ones related to Bomberman having grown to 3 by now. Doesn't help that Etsunobu Ebisu has long realized a spiritual successor to it in Bakeru, which has gained an English-release lately.

Maybe Goemon's chances aren't "impossible" - but they're still astronomically low, especially next to Bomberman and already repped Castlevania + Metal Gear Solid, which have moved long on from where Goemon had been left of, and still see pretty strong relevancy. Castlevania could use a major new title though.

Contrasting that, I feel there's never been more fortunate and beloved guy than Goemon and his series as it gets to live on through fan-translations, especially with Smash 64 Remix putting him to spotlight for people to see and go try his games through - now that majority of mainline ones have seen an English translation up to PSX and N64.


In anycase -it'd be better to just hope that maybe in the future, Konami has the guts to explore bringing back Goemon as a core IP and kickstart a revival for it like they did with Getsu Fuma Den a while ago. Would feel more gradual and confident from their end and show they're not seeing it as some retro IP solely for cameos anymore.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Perhaps - but the way it ended completely shifting the overall perception of what Smash Bros to it's playerbase and outside of it, to be now considered "The Celebration of Gaming - The Game" - has only cemented that as most favored direction for the series for majority involved. Would mean steady stream of big profits and major marketing for the IP-holders too.

Putting these two points together, I really feel the focus on 3rd Parties will be more heavily favored in the next installment, as it seems to Sakurai, if staying a supervisor or even a director still, that his series is looking to be scraping the bottom of the barrel in means of roster picks after the mandated pick for Pokemon, foreconcluded inclusions of Fire Emblem Engage + Xenoblade 3-reps, and maybe one rep for Metroid and Zelda each - incase he's not willing to explore recurring long-wanted characters he has traditionally pushed to NPC-roles before.

Well I guess it's not impossible for the base game to focus on third-party newcomers if you consider Astro Bot's VIP bots-Its budget is lower than the amount of money Sony would spend on a game like The Last of Us II, and it still features VIP bots from numerous third-party companies and its credits spoil ones who'll be added in free content updates. But at the same time, these VIP bots don't come with all the content you expect a series with a fighter in Smash to have, IE no music from their home games.

I might see this as a possibility incase Smash Ultimate being ported to Switch 2 as either the bridging point between a more conventionally shaking Super Smash Bros. 6

I was thinking more along the lines of cutting the middle man out. That is, no Ultimate port, just make more DLC for the Ultimate we already have. That's not to say I don't want a traditional Smash sequel, but when speculation is more like "who'll be in the next DLC pass?" than "who'll be in the next game?", it kinda feels like they should just do more Ultimate DLC.

 

[Diddy Kong]

More Ultimate DLC huh? I actually think we never discussed this option for long. We often here just laugh it off, but I think the longer we hear nothing the bigger the chances. Switch 2 is very likely backward compatible. Mario Kart 8 got DLC years after too. It's not out of the question and maybe likelier than a straight up port.

In which case, what would you guys expect from it?

 

[Diddy Kong]

More Ultimate DLC huh? I actually think we never discussed this option for long. We often here just laugh it off, but I think the longer we hear nothing the bigger the chances. Switch 2 is very likely backward compatible. Mario Kart 8 got DLC years after too. It's not out of the question and maybe likelier than a straight up port.

In which case, what would you guys expect from it?

 

[SharkLord]

More Ultimate DLC huh? I actually think we never discussed this option for long. We often here just laugh it off, but I think the longer we hear nothing the bigger the chances. Switch 2 is very likely backward compatible. Mario Kart 8 got DLC years after too. It's not out of the question and maybe likelier than a straight up port.

In which case, what would you guys expect from it?

Eh... MK8 was specifically the Deluxe edition, since nobody had a Wii U and the Switch had no backwards compatibility. SSBU sold gangbusters on a system that sold gangbusters, so it wouldn't need that update. So without backwards compatibility and without needing to save Ultimate from an unpopular system, I think there wouldn't be as much incentive. It would be a better advertising campaign to make a hot new Smash game and push that instead.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Eh... MK8 was specifically the Deluxe edition, since nobody had a Wii U and the Switch had no backwards compatibility. SSBU sold gangbusters on a system that sold gangbusters, so it wouldn't need that update. So without backwards compatibility and without needing to save Ultimate from an unpopular system, I think there wouldn't be as much incentive. It would be a better advertising campaign to make a hot new Smash game and push that instead.

While I agree, it just seems like some people only want a new Smash game, regardless if their hopes and expectations lean more towards Ultimate DX or a full on roster purge, because they think it's more likely to get the next DLC pass than Ultimate.

I know that's not the case with you, I just think some people are still caught in a DLC mindset despite thinking more DLC for SSBU is less likely than proof Bigfoot is real.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

While I agree, it just seems like some people only want a new Smash game, regardless if their hopes and expectations lean more towards Ultimate DX or a full on roster purge, because they think it's more likely to get the next DLC pass than Ultimate.

I know that's not the case with you, I just think some people are still caught in a DLC mindset despite thinking more DLC for SSBU is less likely than proof Bigfoot is real.

I think the problem would be having to keep one-upping the previous DLC in means of distinct gameplay mechanics and even star power when it'd come to character choices - and even then, I think Sakurai should keep giving himself a rest IMO for indefinite time instead of dragging himself back to the FP-assembly line (or Nintendo forcing him to it.)

I've been personally leaning at a fully new Smash so it'd get to build further upon its gameplay mechanics, especially with NASB2 having adopted the "EX Move"-mechanic with it's Slimes that has given it more depth and interesting ways for players to express themselves.

In fact, I always felt giving each characters' specials a "Limit Break"-version would give them even more tools than before. Might even rework the left-behind custom specials from SSB4 to these EX-versions if need be.

Besides with me not really being up to speculating/rallying for characters I've been looking forward to since 2000s, I rather wanna see what new ways I could get to play with the characters I already enjoy, at least ones not in the possible cutting floor.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

This may not be a shocking take from a storied EIH hater, but I think that Pichu could've easily come back in Ultimate if there wasn't EIH. Yeah, Pichu was a laughing stock during pre-Ultimate speculation, but outside of Smash fandom, that's a legitimately popular character and one of the most popular post-G1 Pokemon (even if you could argue it's "cheating" through its attachment to Pikachu), and the series has a history of (for better or worse) not really paying attention to negative opinions on fan-requested character inclusions even when the negative perception appears to be the majority (Cloud, Ridley, Daisy, even the return of Dr. Mario - hell, you could argue EIH as a whole).

 

[Guynamednelson]

the negative perception appears to be the majority (Cloud,

Where would this seem like the case, just because people mock the fact that he only came with two songs? Because they're not saying the concept of Cloud in Smash sucks.

 

[SharkLord]

Where would this seem like the case, just because people mock the fact that he only came with two songs? Because they're not saying the concept of Cloud in Smash sucks.

I think there was also some initial confusion because of the assumption that Smash should be Nintendo-centric, but by now that viewpoint's no longer mainstream. I don't think anyone cares that Cloud's more of a PlayStation character than a Nintendo one.

 

[Louie G.]

Ridley's negative perception is not majority either, at worst it's an indifference. There's a handful of the too big squad who has remained consistent in their dissatisfaction but most critique against Ridley is "he feels kinda awkward to play". He's not even annoying enough to provoke some kind of community face-turn like Banjo does as a zoner or something.

I love Ridley personally, although I have some opinions on how to improve him, but to most I assume he's inoffensive. The only recent fan demanded characters who I feel eventually wrapped around to negative perception were Bayonetta and Banjo & Kazooie, and those stem from more niche gameplay complaints that a large chunk of the playerbase won't be concerned with.

 

[fogbadge]

This may not be a shocking take from a storied EIH hater, but I think that Pichu could've easily come back in Ultimate if there wasn't EIH. Yeah, Pichu was a laughing stock during pre-Ultimate speculation, but outside of Smash fandom, that's a legitimately popular character and one of the most popular post-G1 Pokemon (even if you could argue it's "cheating" through its attachment to Pikachu)

I've said something similar

 

[SharkLord]

Ridley's negative perception is not majority either, at worst it's an indifference. There's a handful of the too big squad who has remained consistent in their dissatisfaction but most critique against Ridley is "he feels kinda awkward to play". He's not even annoying enough to provoke some kind of community face-turn like Banjo does as a zoner or something.

I love Ridley personally, although I have some opinions on how to improve him, but to most I assume he's inoffensive. The only recent fan demanded characters who I feel eventually wrapped around to negative perception were Bayonetta and Banjo & Kazooie, and those stem from more niche gameplay complaints that a large chunk of the playerbase won't be concerned with.

Yeah, I think dissatisfaction with a character's portrayal isn't quite the same as the character themself being hated. For other examples, DK, Sonic, Ganondorf, and Samus all have a lot of calls for revamps, but I highly doubt anyone wants them cut entirely.

 

[Guynamednelson]

and even then, I think Sakurai should keep giving himself a rest IMO for indefinite time

I'd agree with you on this if said rest hadn't been for almost three years already. He's gonna want to work on game development sooner than later after that. That said, the Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games series does feature two clips that'd make me feel like he wouldn't want to continue development on SSBU specifically: Apologizing for people playing Smash for thousands of hours (though he doesn't say Ultimate/Special specifically and could be referring to hardcore fans of the entire series), and addressing how continuing to update one single game rather than moving on to new ones prevents devs from working on new opportunities.

Then again, arguments regarding whether or not the BCP means more DLC for SSBU is possible have made me curious about really looking at the BCP credits beyond "ooh look there's a thank you screen now!", and my research has shown me that the BCP team is rather different from the base MK8 one, including different directors and over thrice as many programmers as there were for vanilla 8. See for yourself:

List of Mario Kart 8 staff

This is a list of the staff involved with the game Mario Kart 8.

www.mariowiki.com

List of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass staff

This is a list of the staff involved with the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass DLC.

www.mariowiki.com

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Pichu is NOT one of the most popular non-G1 Pokémon by any stretch of the means.

 

[fogbadge]

Pichu is NOT one of the most popular non-G1 Pokémon by any stretch of the means.

that’s the weirdest thing you’ve said since BN hates digimon

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

that’s the weirdest thing you’ve said since BN hates digimon

Tell me, how well does it place in polls compared to other non-G1 Pokémon?
Not well.

You would know that if you actually did a modicum of research.

 

[Guynamednelson]

that’s the weirdest thing you’ve said since BN hates digimon

It's not weird for Smash fans, the one thing that's consistent about them is willful ignorance regarding Pokemon marketing circa 2000-2002.

 

[fogbadge]

Tell me, how well does it place in polls compared to other non-G1 Pokémon?
Not well.

You would know that if you actually did a modicum of research.

the large pile of pichu stuff and the number of digimon projects that BN green light suggests otherwise

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

So because something used to be marketed in a specific era two decades ago means it's still "one of the most popular" today when polling says otherwise and far more options exist.

Just when I thought Mr. Muntz has said the most ridiculous thing ever, he opens his mouth again.

the large pile of pichu stuff and the number of digimon projects that BN green light suggests otherwise

For one, I never said BN hated Digimon. I said they don't treat the series well. Which ask any Digimon fan that's followed the franchise for quite some time other than your blind self, they will tell you.
Digital Hazard

All the "merch that BN greenlights"? Because of Toei, and that's because it's their 4th most profitable franchise.

 

[fogbadge]

So because something used to be marketed in a specific era two decades ago means it's still "one of the most popular" today when polling says otherwise and far more options exist.

Just when I thought Mr. Muntz has said the most ridiculous thing ever, he opens his mouth again.


For one, I never said BN hated Digimon. I said they don't treat the series well. Which ask any Digimon fan that's followed the franchise for quite some time other than your blind self, they will tell you.
Digital Hazard

All the "merch that BN greenlights"? Because of Toei, and that's because it's their 4th most profitable franchise.

I was thinking of the video games. The TGC. And that online book that doesn’t do well

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

You're misinterpreting both of my statements on Pichu.

-When I say Pichu is one of the most popular post-G1 mons, I am speaking from a mainstream perspective, not a Pokemon die-hard perspective. Fan polls are irrelevant in that case.
-When I say the majority hated Cloud, Ridley, e.t.c., I was referring to before their reveals, not after. Late 2000s-Early 2010s. My argument is that Nintendo do not typically listen when there is backlash against a potential new character or cut return, not that they cut characters for being hated.

 

[Perkilator]

Even if Smash was outsourced to a Western developer, my only preference is that they respect Sakurai’s wishes to only include characters from franchises that started as video games.

 

[Ze Diglett]

My Smash-related "hot take" of the month is that it's weird not only how much Smash ignores Western gaming, but especially how people don't question it. This game with 89 characters from dozens of different series has like, half a dozen Western-made characters and a whopping two non-Japanese series in its roster, and people are just... okay with this? I especially don't know how the "celebration of gaming" crowd reconciles this with their belief that Smash is/should be a gaming hall of fame given that it willfully ignores a majority of gaming (indies have it especially rough in that regard, and shooters as a genre basically get screwed by this mentality). People will defend regionally popular picks like Hero because they're "big in Japan," but like... isn't that sort of bias kinda bad in a game that carries itself on mass appeal? Japan's one country out of the nearly 200 that exist in this world, surely there's more than just Minecraft worth pulling from. I get the game's made in Japan and obviously the devs have a better read on what's popular over there, but I honestly don't take that as an excuse given how Sakurai has stated in no uncertain terms that Ultimate especially represents gaming as a whole. The guy plays lots of games and has used footage from plenty of popular Western games on his YouTube channel, so I'm not really sure what the holdup is.

Granted, I think it'd be preferable if Smash went back to being more focused as a crossover event instead of trying to grab whatever's most globally popular; I just think it's odd how keen people are to ignore the blatant Japan-centrism in the "celebration of gaming" era and even implicitly support it in their discussion of characters like Hero.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

My Smash-related "hot take" of the month is that it's weird not only how much Smash ignores Western gaming, but especially how people don't question it. This game with 89 characters from dozens of different series has like, half a dozen Western-made characters and a whopping ONE non-Japanese series in its roster, and people are just... okay with this? I especially don't know how the "celebration of gaming" crowd reconciles this with their belief that Smash is/should be a gaming hall of fame given that it willfully ignores a majority of gaming (indies have it especially rough in that regard, and shooters as a genre basically get screwed by this mentality). People will defend regionally popular picks like Hero because they're "big in Japan," but like... isn't that sort of bias kinda bad in a game that carries itself on mass appeal? Japan's one country out of the nearly 200 that exist in this world, surely there's more than just Minecraft worth pulling from. I get the game's made in Japan and obviously the devs have a better read on what's popular over there, but I honestly don't take that as an excuse given how Sakurai has stated in no uncertain terms that Ultimate especially represents gaming as a whole. The guy plays lots of games and has used footage from plenty of popular Western games on his YouTube channel, so I'm not really sure what the holdup is.

Of course, I think it'd be preferable if Smash went back to being more focused as a crossover event instead of trying to grab whatever's most globally popular; I just think it's odd how keen people are to ignore the blatant Japan-centrism in the "celebration of gaming" era and even implicitly support it in their discussion of characters like Hero.

I've said this before, but I don't think the Japan-centricism of 3Ps in Smash was an intentional decision, it was just a case of licensing being tricky - HOWEVER, I also do agree that it's disingenious to market Smash as this Big Thing that represents and impacts all of gaming when it very much doesn't, and that's not even just a Western situation - I think it also applies to Japanese IPs, since Smash has no only-big-in-Japan 3P IPs, only ones that have proven international appeal; as well as the obvious Sony disparity (or really non-Nintendo hardware as a whole, Sega's representation is very much dominated by post-multiplatform games, even if not as much so as the slightly more understandable case of MS' representation being dominated by acquired games)

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

On the subject of people treating smash as a perfect ultimate video game crossover, it kind of annoys me when people say it represents almost every aspect of the games industry… but also want to cut the one character from a puzzle game, Dr. Mario.

This is an incredibly specific gripe that’s probably just a me thing though to be fair. I’m also not saying just dr mario is perfect puzzle game “representation” whatever that means

 

[Ze Diglett]

I've said this before, but I don't think the Japan-centricism of 3Ps in Smash was an intentional decision, it was just a case of licensing being tricky - HOWEVER, I also do agree that it's disingenious to market Smash as this Big Thing that represents and impacts all of gaming when it very much doesn't, and that's not even just a Western situation - I think it also applies to Japanese IPs, since Smash has no only-big-in-Japan IPs, only ones that have proven international appeal; as well as the obvious Sony disparity (or really non-Nintendo hardware as a whole, Sega's representation is very much dominated by post-multiplatform games, even if not as much so as the slightly more understandable case of MS' representation being dominated by acquired games)

I mean, if they were willing to go to Bethesda for a handful of Mii Costumes and that's it, I have few doubts they could've swung a Kratos or Master Chief if they wanted to. I do think Dragon Quest counts as a case of an only-big-in-Japan IP given how much of a non-entity it was in the West prior to, generously, DQ11, if not Hero's inclusion in Smash itself. It's wild to me how people will bow down to Dragon Quest even if they have no prior exposure to it yet ignore globally influential phenomena like TF2 for not being popular in Japan. But sure, "celebration of gaming."

Regardless of the reason or motivation for it, the lack of non-Japanese representation is certainly incongruous with Smash's current identity and I hope the series can truly decide what it wants to be going forward.

 

[Perkilator]

My Smash-related "hot take" of the month is that it's weird not only how much Smash ignores Western gaming, but especially how people don't question it. This game with 89 characters from dozens of different series has like, half a dozen Western-made characters and a whopping ONE non-Japanese series in its roster, and people are just... okay with this? I especially don't know how the "celebration of gaming" crowd reconciles this with their belief that Smash is/should be a gaming hall of fame given that it willfully ignores a majority of gaming (indies have it especially rough in that regard, and shooters as a genre basically get screwed by this mentality). People will defend regionally popular picks like Hero because they're "big in Japan," but like... isn't that sort of bias kinda bad in a game that carries itself on mass appeal? Japan's one country out of the nearly 200 that exist in this world, surely there's more than just Minecraft worth pulling from. I get the game's made in Japan and obviously the devs have a better read on what's popular over there, but I honestly don't take that as an excuse given how Sakurai has stated in no uncertain terms that Ultimate especially represents gaming as a whole. The guy plays lots of games and has used footage from plenty of popular Western games on his YouTube channel, so I'm not really sure what the holdup is.

Granted, I think it'd be preferable if Smash went back to being more focused as a crossover event instead of trying to grab whatever's most globally popular; I just think it's odd how keen people are to ignore the blatant Japan-centrism in the "celebration of gaming" era and even implicitly support it in their discussion of characters like Hero.

I think a lot of it boils down to the following factors:

• Language barriers (admittedly the least important factor)
• How well negotiations go (since we know Steve was in the negotiations phase as far back as the Wii U era)
• Whether or not Sakurai can make them work as fighters, something he’s talked about before

 

[Digital Hazard]

For one, I never said BN hated Digimon. I said they don't treat the series well. Which ask any Digimon fan that's followed the franchise for quite some time other than your blind self, they will tell you.
Digital Hazard

All the "merch that BN greenlights"? Because of Toei, and that's because it's their 4th most profitable franchise.

I can confirm that yes, Bandai-Namco is behind most of Digimon's mistreatment, but at the same time, they do still try to keep it alive because they profit out of it.

That said, Toei isn't an innocent paragon in this, they've been desperately trying to recapture the lightning in a bottle that was Digimon Adventure, and the result is doing plenty of Adventure-related projects with questionable quality, and in the case of new shows, just struggling to write a continous plot as well as early seasons, or trying to make an almost fully episodic show until they're like "oh right, we must write a finale". I liked Ghost Game, but it suffered a lot from this.

Even so, BN are the ones that move the merchandise, and they have a VERY strained relationship with Toei in general with what they want to do. And what they want is to push merch after merch after merch while throwing darts at a board to see what works while failing to understand what people want.

This not only applies to Digimon, ask fans of any other active franchise they own like Gundam or Kamen Rider, but in the case of Digimon as an example, back in 2019, they were selling a brand new V-Pet with a web storyline of some pretty important lore people going against each other, and it was going well... Then BN sawing the success, said "PANDER TO ADVENTURE AND TAMERS NOSTALGIA! NOW!" and destroyed what little that web story had to put in sub-plots of Adventure and Tamers related Digimon in hopes it would sell even more.

So yes, BN doesn't hates Digimon... They just have no actual idea how to handle the IP. And Toei isn't helping matters with how they just keep nostalgia pandering or thinking lower of any potential new audience.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I have few doubts they could've swung a Kratos

That should...really be more than a few considering who owns Kratos. Third-party licenses don't just grow on trees.

 

[Ze Diglett]

That should...really be more than a few considering who owns Kratos. Third-party licenses don't just grow on trees.

If ****ing Shovel Knight could get Kratos, the game that has Dragonborn as a CAMEO could get Kratos. I don't take "but they're a direct competitor!!" as an excuse given that Microsoft has two characters in this.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If ****ing Shovel Knight could get Kratos,

Kratos is only in the Playstation versions, not all of them.

I don't take "but they're a direct competitor!!" as an excuse given that Microsoft has two characters in this.

Microsoft lets more of their games be ported to competitors' consoles than Sony does. I wouldn't be surprised that the only reason Lego Horizon is on Switch is because Lego forced it.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Kratos is only in the Playstation versions, not all of them.

I'm aware. He is still in the game.

Microsoft lets more of their games be ported to competitors' consoles than Sony does. I wouldn't be surprised that the only reason Lego Horizon is on Switch is because Lego forced it.

I don't doubt that Sony plays less nice with this sort of thing than Microsoft does, I just don't buy it being a complete impossibility in the universe where Sora was allowed to happen with the only strings being that Donald and Goofy were busy that weekend.

 

[Guynamednelson]

He is still in the game.

But not in the version you can play on Switch. At least use Fortnite if you wanna argue it's not illegal to display an image of Kratos on a Nintendo system.