Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Swamp Sensei]

can clearly be properly shrink down in size

It can?

 

[UserKev]

It can?

Rayquaza is very easily shrink-able. It can share similar height and length to Dragonair. It can be bulkier and slower. I feel like Rayquaza can get away as a heavy weight.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Is it just me or should Rayquaza have gotten the PP treatment? Rayquaza can ideally rep gen 3 of Pokemon and can clearly be properly shrink down in size. It has a full moveset in Brawl and its floaty movements would clearly be no issue similarly to Mewtwo. Sakurai should curveball us again with Rayquaza as one of the most brilliant contenders.

You know, why not? If they can pull it off, am more than down for it.

 

[fogbadge]

It can?

I'm picturing baby rayquaza in mario kart

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

A long while ago, I said this

A lot of people argue for overtly-source-accurate movesets by arguing that "characters aren't functions", but surely if you're to adopt that mentality then the functionality of their original games should be ignored too? If you only want to view Mario as a character and not a function, then having a yellow cape is the only info that should be relevant, not that he glides with it.

and really this is something I think applies in general: a lot of Smash fans are WAY more characters-are-functions-pilled than they let on or are even personally aware of, just in regards to the original games instead of Smash. There's the moveset rework paradox I mentioned in the post quoted - people want Wario's shoulder bash to be a special instead of a normal because its function was his main move in Wario Land - but I can think of a ton of other examples of this

• People in Smash communities don't take kindly to the idea of rep from "bad" games - Cheetahmen, Bubsy, CD-i Zelda, e.t.c. - even though those games are regarded as bad because of their functions and not their worlds or characters.
• Clones are seen as a "lesser option" to having a unique moveset, even though the only differences between a clone and unique fighter are how their functions are designed
• "Moveset potential" comes up a lot as a qualifier in Smash discussion, and if the potential for a moveset (or in other words, a set of functions) isn't met then a character is considered disqualified to many.
• There's a strong belief in heirarchy in Smash fandom - main character first, villain second, sidekick third, so on - even though things like "player character" and "final boss" aren't inherently diegetic concepts, and hell, I'd argue that "protagonist" or "main character" isn't really a diegetic concept within other mediums
• Year of game release, development company, and popularity of a game are considered to matter to many despite not existing whatsoever in the game world and basically just being boring Wikipedia infobox statistics.

Those are all, regardless of your stance on these opinions (some of these mentalities I actually agree with with!), function-based mentality and not character-based mentality.

 

[AlRex]

I don't think this is a good idea, you removed all the interesting ones and kept the boring important ones!

Late, but I think that’s why they should experiment with more of the later Gen choices rather than doing the obvious promotional ones. At least in this hypothetical. Bias would make Meowth have Team Rocket w/him, and extra bias would swap Charizard for Blastoise.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Charizard honestly should've been a separate character from the beginning in my opinion. The very design being based around the strengths and weaknesses of Squirtle and Ivysaur limited this character way too much.

Mewtwo and Lucario also need a overhaul almost as badly as Ganondorf does.

 

[RileyXY1]

Charizard honestly should've been a separate character from the beginning in my opinion. The very design being based around the strengths and weaknesses of Squirtle and Ivysaur limited this character way too much.

Mewtwo and Lucario also need a overhaul almost as badly as Ganondorf does.

And DK as well, as his moveset was moreso tailored to him filling an archetype than actually referencing the DK games.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

And DK as well, as his moveset was moreso tailored to him filling an archetype than actually referencing the DK games.

and that's a good thing.

 

[Lenidem]

and that's a good thing.

If you want to play with archetypes, there are tons of fighting games with rosters made up just for that.

Smash Bros. is the only one where you can play with the characters you know and love from other games. So I'd say referencing those games is pretty important.

 

[Louie G.]

I think there's a necessary balance to achieve. Gameplay variety is important, and I think the community underestimates this sometimes. As much as Smash is about seeing our favorite characters duke it out, character "function" is a necessary evil in providing diverse ways of play and keeping movesets coherent.

Donkey Kong was designed to be Smash 64's signature superheavy and given grappler elements. I ask of you guys, what else would you do with him? He has several elements from the DKC games in tact, some granted to him as the series progressed. But everything here that was crafted around the archetype makes sense. Donkey Kong does delivery big walloping punches. He does have an affinity for grabbing things... since his debut in arcades, really. Donkey Kong IS a big silly gorilla, this is the fundamental basis of his character. There are feasible ways to bring him closer to perfection - "Headbutt" is a dispensible move, and he should probably have his stupid lil Scooby Doo voice - but all in all we aren't getting something so unrecognizable here.

Compare this to an "accurate" DK, who wields a coconut gun and throws barrels, or whatever. I'm actually of the belief that you can make barrels work - if they're a slow moving, grounded projectile that forces your opponent into jumping or blocking moreso than a zoning or dumb offstage camping tool. DK's philosophy should be about bringing you closer, getting you in the optimal position to run in and slam you into oblivion. This design is essential to making Donkey Kong feel like Donkey Kong! Any new additions should be in service of this idea, and this archetype.

"Character as function" is not a bad philosophy, it's just one that sounds inherently soulless. But it is a necessary thought process for a diverse, balanced fighting game. Smash should be commended for its ability to blend both character essence and gameplay archetype together into a satisfying, expansive roster. With only a couple exceptions in mind I don't think Smash has rejected a character's identity in such an egregious way to make them into an unfitting archetype... instead they create fitting new ideas to help assimilate them into a fighting game format. This is why archetypes exist in the first place.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If you want to play with archetypes, there are tons of fighting games with rosters made up just for that.

Smash Bros. is the only one where you can play with the characters you know and love from other games. So I'd say referencing those games is pretty important.

To be fair, at least it's an archetype that fits DK. Lack of barrels and coconut guns be damned, everything else he does still feel like stuff DK would do or actually has done in the DKC games, like his Down-B being that one move from DKC no one uses.

Characters are not just functions, but they shouldn't resort to being a mess of unsubtle references to feel like you're playing as (insert character here), and that's what DK avoids IMO. Even someone like Min Min avoids this, a lot of the kicking she does had to be made up for Smash since ARMS' mechanics are too limited for her to have all the kicks she has in Smash.

 

[Pupp135]

I think there's a necessary balance to achieve. Gameplay variety is important, and I think the community underestimates this sometimes. As much as Smash is about seeing our favorite characters duke it out, character "function" is a necessary evil in providing diverse ways of play and keeping movesets coherent.

Donkey Kong was designed to be Smash 64's signature superheavy and given grappler elements. I ask of you guys, what else would you do with him? He has several elements from the DKC games in tact, some granted to him as the series progressed. But everything here that was crafted around the archetype makes sense. Donkey Kong does delivery big walloping punches. He does have an affinity for grabbing things... since his debut in arcades, really. Donkey Kong IS a big silly gorilla, this is the fundamental basis of his character. There are feasible ways to bring him closer to perfection - "Headbutt" is a dispensible move, and he should probably have his stupid lil Scooby Doo voice - but all in all we aren't getting something so unrecognizable here.

Compare this to an "accurate" DK, who wields a coconut gun and throws barrels, or whatever. I'm actually of the belief that you can make barrels work - if they're a slow moving, grounded projectile that forces your opponent into jumping or blocking moreso than a zoning or dumb offstage camping tool. DK's philosophy should be about bringing you closer, getting you in the optimal position to run in and slam you into oblivion. This design is essential to making Donkey Kong feel like Donkey Kong! Any new additions should be in service of this idea, and this archetype.

"Character as function" is not a bad philosophy, it's just one that sounds inherently soulless. But it is a necessary thought process for a diverse, balanced fighting game. Smash should be commended for its ability to blend both character essence and gameplay archetype together into a satisfying, expansive roster. With only a couple exceptions in mind I don't think Smash has rejected a character's identity in such an egregious way to make them into an unfitting archetype... instead they create fitting new ideas to help assimilate them into a fighting game format. This is why archetypes exist in the first place.

I feel like this sums up my opinion pretty well. References are nice to have given that this is a crossover game, and people want to see things from games that they like, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of a cohesive moveset. Also, I think that archetypes/functions have brought in some interesting types of characters, including transforming fighters (Zelda/Sheik initially and now Pokemon Trainer and Aegis), a Double Team (Ice Climbers), a puppet fighter (Rosalina), and a magic based sword fighter (Robin). At the same time, this shouldn’t be the sole focus either as SSB is also a crossover series.

Other hot takes
If I was allowed to prioritize fighters in any way that I want, I’d rather prioritize Sheik over Zelda and Ganondorf because I find her more fun to play as.
I‘ve said this in other threads, but Amy is my most wanted Sonic newcomer.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Donkey Kong being a heavy weight grappler is a good fitting archetype. He does feel like DK, his play style is extremely explosive. That feels like DK. Headbutt is a terrible idea for a Special for DK, anything else fits very well.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I think the issue people have with DK is less a lack of directly referencing the source material and more that his moveset since day 1 has just been "what would a gorilla do in a fight." It's not technically unfitting, but it is certainly boring.

 

[Lenidem]

If you want to play with archetypes, there are tons of fighting games with rosters made up just for that.

Smash Bros. is the only one where you can play with the characters you know and love from other games. So I'd say referencing those games is pretty important.

Re-reading what I wrote, I realize that this message might sound agressive and personnal, and that was not the intent, Wario Wario Wario

I should have written something like: "If we want to play with archetypes".

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think the issue people have with DK is less a lack of directly referencing the source material and more that his moveset since day 1 has just been "what would a gorilla do in a fight." It's not technically unfitting, but it is certainly boring.

DK generates a lot of hype. His playstyle isn't boring. But could use a little more flash and style maybe. Up B as Barrel Canon and Barrel Throw and keeping Spinning Kong for Side B would be enough to make him perfectly represented.

He could be a little more build around speed than weight tho. That would allow for an even more explosive character. But size comes with range and he needs that.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

his moveset since day 1 has just been "what would a gorilla do in a fight." It's not technically unfitting, but it is certainly boring.

In what world is "gorilla fighting" boring? That is a "dudes will see this and go hell yeah" concept right there.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In what world is "gorilla fighting" boring? That is a "dudes will see this and go hell yeah" concept right there.

Especially if said gorilla makes things explode out of one grab.

I mean, just watch Junebug in Melee and Chunky Kong in Ultimate.

DK is a hype as **** character.

 

[fogbadge]

In what world is "gorilla fighting" boring? That is a "dudes will see this and go hell yeah" concept right there.

i suppose it depends if you've seen enough gorilla fights that the concept has become tiresome

 

[Ze Diglett]

DK generates a lot of hype. His playstyle isn't boring. But could use a little more flash and style maybe. Up B as Barrel Canon and Barrel Throw and keeping Spinning Kong for Side B would be enough to make him perfectly represented.

He could be a little more build around speed than weight tho. That would allow for an even more explosive character. But size comes with range and he needs that.

I think I'm in agreement there. Spinning Kong and Headbutt are the worst offenders in that there's a much more fun, obvious, and thematically fitting option for the former and the latter just being a lame move that's obsolete in most cases. (Does the man really need a fourth spike that's significantly worse and more limited than the other three?) Ditching either or both of these for something like the Barrel Cannon or a classic barrel toss would do a lot to make the character feel like himself and not just "a gorilla," not to mention give DK a way of pressuring people at range, which would be nice.

In what world is "gorilla fighting" boring? That is a "dudes will see this and go hell yeah" concept right there.

In a world where even the other superheavies are sending people to the Shadow Realm with bouncy balls and shooting people out of vacuum guns, sorry, A Gorilla is kinda boring. It's like if you had a game where all the characters have super unique abilities. and then there's just Ralph, the knight who does knight things.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The best thing that ever happened to Smash DK was Jungle Beat coming along and retroactively having his moveset make more sense for the nature of the character.

As far his general style I'm largely fine with it. Diddy feels much more off to me, but with Donkey Kong 1-2 move replacements would do some real good without drifting too much from the original conception of his Smash role.

 

[UserKev]

I sort of dislike DK's spin recovery due to how silly and almost suicidal it functions. Like why would you try to spin to a cliff that'd just make you dizzy? The barrel pod that launchers the Kongs would have been a better recovery for DK but I get that it would seem alittle OP. Would be amazingly representing of DK's franchise tho.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'm not really sure if this is considered an unpopular opinion (Sword and Shield's divisiveness aside) but a Gen 8 Pokemon should've been included among the Fighter Pass newcomers.

Not at the cost of one of the existing ones, mind you. I'd rather that one have been included along with the rest of the DLC newcomers that made the final cut.

 

[Perkilator]

Since the next Smash game is likely going to continue the tradition of newcomer reveal trailers, the only change is make is not make a trailer for every base game newcomer, mainly for the sake of making sure any potentially unlockable newcomers remain a secret until the game’s release. and of course leaks

 

[RileyXY1]

Since the next Smash game is likely going to continue the tradition of newcomer reveal trailers, the only change is make is not make a trailer for every base game newcomer, mainly for the sake of making sure any potentially unlockable newcomers remain a secret until the game’s release. and of course leaks

I do think this is the case because I'm expecting that the next game will handle its prerelease more like Brawl and Smash 4 because they're most likely not gonna do Everyone is Here a second time.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Gonna make a rare defense of modern Smash

I don't think SSBU's DLC had a lack of characters with US appeal due to being a "Japanese game for Japanese people" - Smash has historically always appealed to Western audiences, even in 3Ps (Sonic is living proof of this, if Smash was meant to be a strictly Japanese game, Sonic would've never been as much as considered in passing, but from the 1P well you have Duck Hunt, Metroid, and Punch-Out) - I think the truth is actually a bit more... nuanced. Licensing from foreign companies, particularly with major IP, is difficult, especially as IIRC it's been said there has to be actual in-person meetings for Smash negotiations, and I think focusing on 3Ps for SSBU's DLC directly caused US audiences to get the short end of the stick - there's kind of a different "American Nintendo culture" from the "Japanese Nintendo culture", which isn't exactly true of any other Japanese company except maybe Sega, as Capcom, Konami, e.t.c. tend to go for an otaku audience when bringing content broad, so with the exception of Sonic (and Pac-Man, I've heard he isn't as popular in Japan as the US), you have to go to the source to appeal to US audiences, something they clearly tried to do considering the presence of games like Fallout, Doom, and Warframe in minor roles, but clearly wasn't possible for full playable characters.

I do think there's no excuse, however, for the lack of art style and tone diversity in SSBU's DLC - but, I think that the scrimblo problem could've been remedied by playing MORE into regionally Japanese series - other than a few outliers like Nintendo games and Sanrio, Japanese culture was selectively chosen for export based on counter-culture value in the 90s - shonen, seinen, and occasionally shojo if there's enough action to overcome the "girly sigma" - you don't see much Doraemon or Anpanman love in the West given how superficially similar they are to Western animation, and as a result a lot of people don't realise that Japanese pop culture is filled with just as many cartoony goofballs as our English-speaking pop culture, instead of the homogenised image of "anime" as a single entity, so perhaps if you need scrimblos, but can't get American creations or draw from the Nintendo well, get the stuff that hasn't been successfully exported. I'm kinda tempted to argue that the Great Scrimblo Drought was a result of trying to appeal to international audiences, and not Japan specifically, without the resources to do so.

 

[Louie G.]

I think Ultimate’s DLC lineup was quite good all things considered, but I always believed where it comes up a bit short was in its ability to cast a wide net. I don’t mind the JRPG characters. But it began to stand out more the longer I was waiting for the kind of games that I like to play. Terry was perhaps the most directly appealing choice for me, and at that time I wasn’t as much of an SNK fan as I am today either.

I’ve felt for a while that Smash should strive to bring in more unique genre representation moving forward. Not out of arbitrary checklist pandering, but simply because those distinct game essences organically provide new potential for unique characters. Solving the puzzle of representing rhythm, horror, VN, FPS, SHMUP or well… puzzle games in Smash would create a bunch of exciting new opportunities that I feel Smash is bordering on egregiously neglecting. But in fairness I feel particularly burned by this since several of these genres are more true to my own gaming tastes and experiences.

I’m not sure I agree 100% on design variety being a shortcoming - Hero, Banjo, Steve and Min Min help to remedy this - but the “Japanese scrimblo” that Wario shouts out here is perhaps one of my favorite character types that I do wish got extra love. Seeing how my most wanted characters are from Rhythm Heaven and Puyo Puyo I suppose my bias couldn’t be clearer.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Part of the weirdness is that Japan has plenty of remaining cartoony characters that would gladly fit alongside a Mario or Banjo in Smash... but they often don't come from platformers or action-adventure games like so many in the West do and the exceptions lean towards the obscure even regionally. As a result, they tend to get overlooked despite their visual aesthetic perfectly fitting for a wacky platform fighter like Smash.

Arle's a great example; had she come from a series of 2D/3D platformer games and not Madō Monogatari/Puyo Puyo, she'd end up on more ranked lists if for other reason because the moveset would seem more obvious to a broader swath of fans. But with Madō Monogatari not having broken out in the West like other RPG's have, that game's roots as sub-genre that's pretty niche in the today's market (first person dungeon crawler), and Puyo Puyo's puzzle status making her moveset conception initially tricky to many people, she ends up less thought about then she warrants even with a distinct design.

I personally wonder if that's why Bomberman got a promotion to Mii costume and might end up in the next game (or at the very least why he's more easily considered); he's a prominent cartoony character from Japan that does have enough action adventure/platformer adjacent titles to fit into Smash while having a hypothetical moveset that's pretty natural to conceive of.

 

[UserKev]

Is it just me or does Smash stages not make you want to fight anymore? Man there's just something about Smash 64's, Melee and Brawl's stages that pumps the urge. Maybe it's an aesthetic change. Stages are now like "OK, do we fight now?" "Uhh maybe?" "The scenery is so beautiful." I'm hoping Smash can bring back that rawness and subtle atmosphere.

 

[TheZizz]

Anticipating your opponent's next move doesn't automatically entitle you to a free punish, and smash is no less dynamic for it. It's nice having tactical options besides "bait n wait" (I mean it's called "wall of pain" for a reason, it's not trying to conceal itself or use the element of surprise, it's a damn wall openly blocking your path and I dare you to try and breach it!)

 

[Oracle Link]

Brawl had an awful artstyle why the heck is everything so textured!

 

[TheZizz]

Smash esports' "hype hard reset" is a net positive, ultimately. Make way for players who just love the game whether it's big or not. Then no one has to ask, why am I doing this after all?

 

[Perkilator]

Smash esports' "hype hard reset" is a net positive, ultimately. Make way for players who just love the game whether it's big or not. Then no one has to ask, why am I doing this after all?

I'm gonna be real, I genuinely have no idea what that means.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'm gonna be real, I genuinely have no idea what that means.

In competitive Smash, there's typically thought to be two official options for a player: Melee, or the latest game - once a new game comes out, the former latest "dies" and fades into competitive obscurity - what they're saying is that Smash games "dying" is for the game's own good, because latest-Smash players since Brawl have always historically been cynical about their game, and a new game coming out means those who really do like the older game for what it is can stick with it, while the players who dislike the game and spread negativity go their own way.

 

[TheZizz]

I'm gonna be real, I genuinely have no idea what that means.

Short answer? Fewer johns.

Longer answer. The end of career prospects means mass migration, with the remaining players regarding smash as an end, and not a means to some other end. No more obsession over status or "relevance" (ie. Let's maximize our impact regardless of context). Greater stage variety, and overall better play experience according to my personal preference.

 

[TheZizz]

This is not my original opinion, but here is a fascinating & detailed analysis of why "boycotting" brawl ahead of smash 4 was absurd: https://youtu.be/1vtAc1g3FHQ?si=qONRu_6quxpttCuo once again illustrating the lack of foresight, and overall questionable taste of the greater smash community, in my opinion, at least until recently

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think Smash's future third party endeavors will lean more towards smaller franchises like Persona, Bayonetta and Fatal Fury. We'll still get the occasional Minecraft or Final Fantasy, but the majority of third parties won't be gigantic and the fan base needs to be accepting of that.

I expect things like Bravely Default more than Master Chief.

 

[Perkilator]

I think Smash's future third party endeavors will lean more towards smaller franchises like Persona, Bayonetta and Fatal Fury. We'll still get the occasional Minecraft or Final Fantasy, but the majority of third parties won't be gigantic and the fan base needs to be accepting of that.

I expect things like Bravely Default more than Master Chief.

I think franchises like Trails in the Sky will benefit from this kind of approach, especially with the first game’s recently-announced remake being Switch-exclusive.

 

[fogbadge]

I think Smash's future third party endeavors will lean more towards smaller franchises like Persona, Bayonetta and Fatal Fury. We'll still get the occasional Minecraft or Final Fantasy, but the majority of third parties won't be gigantic and the fan base needs to be accepting of that.

I expect things like Bravely Default more than Master Chief.

tbh I agree