Top ten at Apex 2013 predictions.

[PB&J]

I cannot wait til next week all the streams and all the vids like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXXLvcIbEKI

 

[darkatma]

FREE UNKNOWN!

Ban Inui

 

[Engo]

how so? i said he was the best EVER, not the best right now. if you called me an hbox fanboy, i would easily agree, but i don't like mango, i just think he's the best to ever play the game of super smash bros melee. if you say that person is armada, you would have a legitimate case, and you obviously wouldn't be a homer.

also i agree totally with shadrach's post, for what it's worth

If you're going to argue that he's the best EVER,in which you're comparing him not so much with the best players right now but with the other legends like Ken, M2K, Azen etc. then why wouldn't you look to his years of dominance after Pound 3 as proof? Why would this one tournament win against someone he's lost to twice in a row(assuming they're in grand finals it's not 100% certain in my opinion) in the past make him officially the best to ever play the game? Wining 2 or 3 times against Armada might help improve the strength of the claim but just one win doesn't add anything to his "best player of all time" status which you're proposing. If he wins Apex 2013 and then loses Genesis 3 then that win didn't mean as much as you're making it sound.

edit: Especially after losing to PP the tourney before Apex 2013.

 

[Dorsey]

armada pp hbox and mango getting top 10.

Just remember that i called it.

 

[The Business]

armada pp hbox and mango getting top 10.

Just remember that i called it.

****in ballsy call dude.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I wonder how they're gonna seed things. I want armada and mango to be a semi, with pp, hbox, and m2k on the other side, but I'm biased lol.

 

[Landry]

I wonder how they're gonna seed things. I want armada and mango to be a semi, with pp, hbox, and m2k on the other side, but I'm biased lol.

Based on results, though, it should probably be PP (2/3) and Mango (2/3) on the same side with Armada (1), Hungrybox (4) and Mew2King (5) on the other side.

 

[Lovage]

the only call im making is armadas getting 3rd place

 

[Engo]

^ I honesty agree with the prediction of Armada getting 3rd. My mind says "He's won two times in a row and practices like no body else there's no way he's not going to atleast get to grandfinals" but my heart thinks he'll be taken down by someone like PP or KK. (or Unknown if he was there :/)

 

[Landry]

PP's going in this time. I hope he gets to face Armada and go Pound 5 all over him.

 

[Diakonos]

how so? i said he was the best EVER, not the best right now. if you called me an hbox fanboy, i would easily agree, but i don't like mango, i just think he's the best to ever play the game of super smash bros melee. if you say that person is armada, you would have a legitimate case, and you obviously wouldn't be a homer.

also i agree totally with shadrach's post, for what it's worth

Hm, but if Armada is the best right now, how is he also not the best ever? Are you saying that Mango's "best," his global maximum, was higher than his current one, and higher than Armada's current maximum? That seems to me to be a hard position to hold.

PP's going in this time. I hope he gets to face Armada and go Pound 5 all over him.

May PP go into Mango. I would rather see Smasher's Reunion type sets from PP-Armada.

 

[tarheeljks]

Hm, but if Armada is the best right now, how is he also not the best ever? Are you saying that Mango's "best," his global maximum, was higher than his current one, and higher than Armada's current maximum? That seems to me to be a hard position to hold.

wat. the best person at a given time in a given endeavor is not necessarily the best ever. i'm not agreeing or disagreeing w/him fwiw b/c idk much about smash history and thus don't have a well formed opinion who the goat is, but his position is pretty clear and defensible. if you watch sports just think of who you think the best player currently is in your favorite sport-- is he the best ever? fo example most would say lebron james is currently the best player in the nba, but few would call him the best ever

 

[shadrach kabango]

ya mango's peak was best ever but he's been away from his peak for a long time

right now armada is > than him and i think pp is too

the only person who can ruin it is hbox cuz no one wants to see a jigglypuff

unless, coincidentally, it's mangos

 

[KanyeRest]

wat. the best person at a given time in a given endeavor is not necessarily the best ever. i'm not agreeing or disagreeing w/him fwiw b/c idk much about smash history and thus don't have a well formed opinion who the goat is, but his position is pretty clear and defensible

what i'm saying is in bold. i'd compare to lebron vs jordan but you could theoretically play smash until you die whilst athletes' careers are extremely limited.

also engo you have a great point, as determining the GOAT in melee would require more comparisons than "mango v. armada"

 

[Captain Smuckers]

Melee is a tad different from sports. I'm almost certain that Armada would beat 09 Mango, because the metagame has advanced; people are better now than they were 4 years ago. Therefore, whoever the best is now (most would argue Armada) is the best to have played. That's how I see it, at least.

 

[shadrach kabango]

u dont see it very well because the best is always relative to ur peers. so whoever is more > over their peers than whomever else is da bess

 

[Battlecow]

I feel like absolute skill is a valid metric for GoAT status

by your definition wilt chamberlain or someone would be the best basketball player of all time

 

[KanyeRest]

Melee is a tad different from sports. I'm almost certain that Armada would beat 09 Mango, because the metagame has advanced; people are better now than they were 4 years ago. Therefore, whoever the best is now (most would argue Armada) is the best to have played. That's how I see it, at least.

but wouldn't that make an athlete like lionel messi better than pele or maradona, since footballers are way better now? it's not just about who's better now, achievements have to come into play too, and i think mango has a better tournament record than armada by a smidge, whilst messi doesn't have a world cup unlike pele or maradona, which doesn't make him the GOAT in football in my opinion.

 

[tarheeljks]

Melee is a tad different from sports. I'm almost certain that Armada would beat 09 Mango, because the metagame has advanced; people are better now than they were 4 years ago. Therefore, whoever the best is now (most would argue Armada) is the best to have played. That's how I see it, at least.

that's not really much different than in sports. there are mediocre runners/athletes/whatever who would dominate if you sent them back in time, though how weak a player you could send varies by sport

edit: sporting forums always have these debates about how athletes from different eras stack up

 

[iRobinhoood]

but wouldn't that make an athlete like lionel messi better than pele or maradona, since footballers are way better now? it's not just about who's better now, achievements have to come into play too, and i think mango has a better tournament record than armada by a smidge, whilst messi doesn't have a world cup unlike pele or maradona, which doesn't make him the GOAT in football in my opinion.

Achievements come into play but you need to cite a different analogy first. Soccer is a team sport which relies on a lot of factors outside your control. I do believe footballers of the past would not mix well with the footballers of today. They might get away with a few old tricks but the game has changed just like in melee.

In terms of skill, I believe Messi is better than the likes of Pele, Maradona, Muller, etc. which is what should matter over achievement imo. And some might say well you can have all the skill in the world, but if you don't produce, you're not worth anything. This is true but statistically if you're as good as people say you are, you often have the results to prove it and prove it consistently.

 

[Captain Smuckers]

If we are talking strictly skill based, the person who is best at it is the best.... There is a difference between being the greatest skill-wise and the greatest success-wise. For the sake of my argument, let's say Armada is currently better than Mango (very reasonable). Though I suppose first I'd need to know that none of you think that Mango was better in 09 than he is now. I'd say that's absurd, but whatever. If we go off the assumption that Mango is at his best right now, and Armada is the current best in the world, he is a better player than Mango. He may be less successful, but he's better at the game. I'd like to say that you can't argue otherwise if the two conditions that I laid out before are met. I can't say I know much about the sports references that you've made, so instead I'll offer my own that none of you will get. In tennis, two players that are argued to be the best are Rod Laver (from the 60s-70s) and Roger Federer (current). Even if they achieved very similar levels of success during their careers, if they could somehow play each other at their prime, Federer would win without a doubt. Which would make him the better player. I suppose the GOAT is a bit different because when searching for that, for whatever reason, people don't look strictly at who was better at it skill-wise, but instead they look at levels of success.

@Shadrach
So, Ken without a doubt dominated his peers more than any other player ever. There is no arguing that. Does that mean that he is better than Mango or Armada?

Edit: Thank you, Robin

@Tarheeljks
I feel like it's more arguable in most sports. I know what you mean though.

 

[Landry]

Ken is the best player of all time

 

[tarheeljks]

why is it more arguable in sports? there are many instances in many sports where the best player at that time was not the best ever. that would usually be the case. making a leap here but are you saying it's b/c sports have evolved less?

recently there have been very clear developments in "metagame" in major sports. in basketball many teams have moved to smaller, more athletic power forwards and centers and offenses are more tailored more to perimeter players. teams also shoot far more 3's than they did even 5 years ago. in football offenses have become far more passing oriented which has affected formations, the type of players that are desirable, the roles of those players, etc. even before then there were various strategic innovations-- certain offenses/defenses going in and out of style and what not and none of that even gets to how the players themselves have evolved. bigger, faster, stronger, etc.

Does that mean that he is better than Mango or Armada?

just depends on one's criteria for the goat. no one would argue that he is in terms of absolute skill b/c he is obv not, but that's not what most people mean when they ask "who is the greatest of all time at ___" (and for good reason).

 

[KayB]

If we're still predicting Top 10...

Mango and Armada (no ****)
HBox
M2K
PeePee
AXE (maybe not, but what the hell)
Shroomed (maybe)
Hax/Darkrain (Is SS playing anymore? I haven't seen him in tournament vids)
and... I dunno after that.

It'd be cool if Taj does some Genesis 2 upset (or any sort of upset for that matter) in Apex but the chances are slim. Looking forward to it.

 

[MaNg0]

no one has ever seen my peek

except maybe lucky and alex


every tourney match you have ever ever ever seen of me ( 9/10 )

ive played with 0 warmup .. usually tired ( from hanging/drinking ) etc


When i play during the week nice and rested and play A LOT

im absolutely the greatest thing to ever touch a melee control


and no this is not a john in anyway.. JUST SAYING

 

[Captain Smuckers]

It doesn't sound like one

#MangoNation

 

[Tarv]

no one has ever seen my peek

Can we expect to see your full potential at Apex?

 

[hungrybox]

Can we expect to see your full potential at Apex?

don't count on it lol

 

[Tarv]

don't count on it lol

I would be very disappointed.

What about you hungrybox? Can we expect to see Hungrybox unleashed?

 

[iRobinhoood]

After falling runner-up in a tournament of this size, I think the fire was lit. I see Hbox going in hard but I also think people are beginning to adapt to the Puff playstyle.

Mango to go 9/10 this tournament(which is better than 8/10).

Edit: Not adapt to the Puff playstyle*, but actually try to come up with strategy and discipline themselves enough to be able to beat Hbox.

 

[Tarv]

I thought hungrybox was bringing in an alt so he wouldn't have to rely completely on puff anyways?

 

[Juushichi]

I hope HBox does work here.

I'm not sure if Mango has the discipline to come healthy* into APEX this year, just like many events that he's been at before. If he took the same approach to the game as PP seems to have recently, it might be easier to think him as the best. But even then, he doesn't and Armada is currently the most successful player on the national stage in the world.

Results still speak for themselves.

*by healthy, i mean in mindset/actions... not necessarily sickness like PP experienced, though even he said he took steps to try to avoid that sort of thing happening more diligently.

 

[_wzrd]

is pewpewu going?

i want to see that guy put in work
him vs armada/hbox would be tiiiighht

 

[Wretched]

I think the dynamic between the top 3 is pretty simple.

Peepee is meticulous. He is constantly baiting while maintaining a lock down with safe offense. You'll see that he does great against players who are also meticulous, like KK for example. They're playing a 'who can think far enough ahead to not mess up' game. His lasers are calculated and his shield pressure is safe but threatening. He maintains a degree of control almost unseen by Melee.

Armada is the punisher. Armada, in the neutral game, is an extremely defensive player. He waits. Its just the nature of Peach. He understands that Peach cannot win by putting the other player in a bad position, but rather he must wait until they do it themselves. When that time comes, which it does for every player, Armada is one of the if not the best punisher in the game. You **** up once and you lose a stock.

Mang0, however, is playing a different game. Both Peepee and Armada are patient, but Mang0 just goes in. His constant reevaluation of options allows him to always pick the most aggressive yet safe option. When he locks players down, everything they know becomes irrelevant. When you're playing Mang0, you're getting ***** in your shield, getting punished, getting grabbed, or you're trying to do something OoS and Mang0 is punishing you for it. That's why Mang0 wins so decisively sometimes.

“One mark of a great soldier is that he fights on his own terms or fights not at all.”
“Those skilled at making the enemy move do so by creating a situation to which he must conform; they entice him with something he is certain to take, and with lures of ostensible profit they await him in strength.”
― Sun Tzu

I think these quotes are pretty accurate.

With that said, when Mang0 is on point, you lose more and more options as his pressure gets more airtight. When he doesn't have that airtight pressure, he gets punished. When he plays people like Armada who will wait all day for that opportunity, he loses stocks for single mistakes.

We all expect Mang0/Peepee/Armada/Hbox? for top 3. Peepee is always getting better, so who knows what will happen. Armada has probably gotten better, too. However, I think the placing will all depend on how Mang0 applies himself. We've all seen what happens when he throws the neutral game out of the window. I'd like to reference Genesis 2, Taj Vs. Mang0 in winners. Mang0 wasn't playing too well, so the neutral game became more apparent and Taj was able to do some fancy tricks. However, watch his match in losers with Taj. The difference between not warmed up Mang0 and warmed up Mang0 is clearly visible. Mang0 ****S Taj up, no doubt. I still wonder why he went so ham and then lost to Armada, but I guess that's in the past. If Mang0 just waited a LITTLE bit against Armada, I think his chances would double. He takes every aggressive option possible, and eventually Armada gets a punish and then a stock.

Another example is Kings of Cali. Winners, Peepee vs. Mango was a decisive victory for Mang0. Peepee was thinking too hard and being too patient, so Mango wrecked him. Whatever anyone wants to say, Grand Finals, Peepee got more aggressive than Mang0, and he won because of it. All johns aside, Peepee was playing much more aggressive than normal and it seemed like he flat out outplayed Mang0, regardless of Mang0's dedication to the performance.

We can see this evidence in other matches. Who is another character who punishes really hard? Ganon. We all know Mang0 has lost to Kage before. He loses when he gets punished really hard.

We'll see, though.

 

[Battlecow]

maybe wednesday mango could do work

maybe not

I personally think we'll never see it because mango loves to be the best in the world and hates the idea of having to prove it. He'll lose apex, laugh it off, and then eventually he'll start getting consistent 3rd places, then consistent 4ths, until eventually he's losing to KK and co. At some point he'll cop out to mario or someone so that he can say he's not trying at all, and then he'll quit.

 

[Landry]

One thing is for sure - if Mango gets bodied at Apex it'll raise a lot of questions about his legacy and exactly how great he was.

 

[PB&J]

I actually want mango at his best @ this. I love watching Him play when he is super in the zone.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Apex 2014 predictions.

Mango 17/25 maybe 9th.

 

[Renth]

Someone handcuff mango to a bed when they get him to a hotel don't let him drink anything.

 

[KrIsP!]

One thing is for sure - if Mango gets bodied at Apex it'll raise a lot of questions about his legacy and exactly how great he was.

Not really, the more embarrassing a loss, the more johns the fan boys will give. He's an amazing player, it shows but if he wants to be the best he can't be inconsistent and then lose at the biggest tourney there is. He had time to prepare for this one and if he didn't then how can we say he's better than armada going off of sets that happened before armada made some serious improvements.