WARNING! What follows is what is commonly referred to as a wall of text. Literary supervision is advised.
@ SamuraiPanda
Covered a few pages ago as well - DMG and Hippie and I had a rather fun argument about it. To recap, Luigi has a lot of ways to get within range. No one is a perfect camper. No one can perfectly combo. No one can perfectly DI out of stuff (although, statistically speaking, long attacks such as Snake's N-air is easier to DI out of than a Luigi combo storm due to the lack of human control beyond that of Snake's own DI). Luigi's main problem is Snake's campiness, stage shenanigans give the advantage to Luigi, etc. etc. Yadda yadda. Blah blah. Everyone knows the reasons but gives emphasis to different things; at this point in the discussion only new strategies should change the flow of conversation. However - I'm curious. In what kind of situations have you been firing Nikitas at Green Missiles? I can imagine edge-guarding, but not too much in any other situation. Explanation plzthx!
@ Jman77
As far as I have seen, no Snake has ever decided to blow himself up for the sake of damaging Luigi. Luigi gets early kills - it's one of his pros that allows him to face off against the great punisher. Also, if Snake was holding the grenade, he'd be closer to the center of the blast and receive greater effect than Luigi (admittedly however, Snake's heavier). As a side note, a grounded and shielding Snake's held grenade will only blow up (as far as I have seen) based on the usual timer.
My point is that a Luigi who has gotten Snake above 50% or more will probably tend to cease the comboing (different than your run of the mill juggling) in favor of going in for the early kill or poking holes in Snake's defense left and right. Maybe the Snake simply has an easier time reseting his position due to knockback (with the exclusion of late-stock juggling, and even then, as you said, Snake can get out of that) and forces Luigi to cease the comboing, who knows. At that point, Snake pulling a grenade for the sake of aerial defense is a risky maneuver in the light of his safer and more reliable options (one of which is: getting the hell out of Luigi's way and onto the ground as fast as possible). Thus, in my opinion, the use of a grenade to defend against the air-superiority fighter Luigi doesn't really matter too much in this match-up beyond situational instances where the Snake doesn't mind the extra damage (which should only happen if the Snake is already owning the Luigi so hard that he doesn't care anymore, or the Snake is getting owned so hard that he's desperate, or the Snake has found himself in some amazingly beneficial situation - which is, you guessed it, situational).
Then again, I could be totally wrong about everything I've just said. I don't play as a Snake often enough to know his little dirty tricks.
Regarding Boss vs. Ally - do you have a link to the video of Boss getting his behind whupped to the tune of two stocks? I've looked over the youtube main site and have only found a video of two friendlies, both labeled to be at 'Cat4', where Boss pulled off two consecutive close-match wins (Brawl Yoshi's Island and Battlefield).
Specifically regarding Boss' Luigi, I'm amazed by him. His approaches are so varied in his friendlies match against Ally... So varied! It's like - yo, I'm going to hit you with this... NO I'M NOT! *punch* *walk away* *whistles...* Really though, in the same way that no Luigi can perfectly blast Snake the bajeezus away, Snake cannot keep Luigi from blasting him the bajeezus away.
By the way - you didn't specify how Snake was holding the grenade. Do you mean him holding it by the player holding down the special button after pulling it out or do you mean him holding it as a normal item? Or both?
@ Everyone who wants to make the argument that Luigi loses this match-up 60:40 or more
We've already discussed this! If you're going to make the argument, provide some new information with analytic backing that can be agreed upon by both parties: the Luigi boards and the Snake boards. The thing about considering the match-up as 60:40 or more in Snake's favor is that you're giving disproportional weight to Snake's ability to punish approaches relative to Luigi's ability to combo in the air. From 0%, Luigi has, on heavy characters, assured combos (assured to an extent - everyone makes mistakes) that take them to 50% or more from a variety of starting moves. The most reliable start up probably going to the jab. Unless the Snake player is a god of timing, there is going to be a combo (possibly unfinished due to human error - but unlikely), whether they like it or not, and its going to take them to Luigi's killing percentage. This match-up has already been boiled down to the bare bones over the past couple of pages - it's effectively Luigi's offense vs. Snake's defense. Snake has a huge defense which gives him the advantage of time and the ability to pressure Luigi into statistically unfavorable (from what I've seen) approaches, but Luigi has a huge offense that gives him a brief yet clear advantage once Snake's defense lets up for the briefest moment. Now, to any who wish to bring up select players - I've seen Ally play, but he's absolutely ridiculous and I'm doubtful that most tourney Snakes are able to emulate his SSBB ability. Also, given that match-ups are based on the prediction of how well most decently skilled Character-1 players will fare against most Character-2 players, and that most everyone (even the most skilled) make mistakes, theorycraft has to eliminate the players themselves and tourney results to leave only their strategies and where said strategies worked and failed. If you're going to bring up select players, bring up their strategies as well, please.
Returning to the remainder of the stage discussion before the thread deteriorated into 'this character has that advantage and that character has this disadvantage and I think that so and so has some number advantage over such and such because of this pseudo-analytical list of attacks and random points that have little application in the match-up without some serious explanation' (why would you be canceling a Luigi Missile with a Nikita to begin with? Edge-guarding? C'mon guys - empty info doesn't help without some analysis!)... I'm going to bring up the neutrals/counterpicks, as it seems that there's a steady (and rational) opposition to Luigi having any sort of even match-up or advantage against Snake on the neutrals (for those of you who happen to not know what those are and for some odd reason are reading this post, the neutrals are: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, and Brawl's version of Yoshi's Island).
The neutral/counterpicks are: Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, and Pokemon Stadium I. It's already been agreed upon that Pokemon Stadium I is in Snake's favor (or so I would like to think) along with Lylat Cruise. Delfino Plaza has as of yet been indeterminate (DMG questions the match-up there, I question the match-up there, Hippie questions the match-up there, the various other experienced players who have posted have not mentioned Delfino Plaza) - probably due to its subtle shenanigans.
Halberd is questionable as well (with, in my opinion, a leaning towards Snake's favor), somewhat for the same reason that Corneria is questionable and somewhat for other reasons. The relatively short ceiling during the flight sequences benefits Luigi when Snake has moderate percentages, and benefits Snake when Luigi is at moderate to high percentages. Luigi gains the kill advantage earlier, but the approach is, as always, a problem. Snake can camp the living daylights out of Luigi during the grounded (by which I mean, aboard the Halberd's hull) sequences... Unless the laser targets him or the grappling hook targets him. Then the shenanigans are on and Luigi has a brief upper hand. The shenanigans don't affect Luigi all too much because of Luigi's style in this match - he's always displaced from his strong points (aerial combos) and thus always on the move. My conclusion: if the targeting reticule or claw takes a liking to Snake, Luigi has a decent chance of getting the upper hand once every flight cycle (thus making Snake's advantage smaller - to the point of being even I don't know nor care to think about). If it doesn't, the stage's match-up is effectively like that of a weighted combination of Battlefield and Final Destination (both of which are in Snake's favor).
Castle Siege has already been discussed, but I wanted to quickly mention/repeat that the uneven terrain and vacuous spaces of Castle Siege(1) is arguably in Luigi's favor, that the uneven terrain and various platforms of Castle Siege(2) are arguably in Luigi's favor again, that the relatively flat terrain of Castle Siege(3) is much too much like an enlarged Smashville for me to say it gives any advantage to Luigi, and that every transition between stages should be an opening for a close-up and personal green player.
Regarding the counterpicks - all of them that have shenanigans are arguably in Luigi's favor. The more shenanigans, the better. Shenanigans that do damage and have knockback push the match-up further in Luigi's favor. With clarity: all shenanigans that can displace Snake gives the advantage to Lugi. Kudos to cr4sh on this one.
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And with that I conclude my minor contributions (beyond responding to directed remarks :-P ) to the stage discussion (I think 5+ walls of text are more than enough for one character match-up >_<) G'luck figuring out the rest, guys! *walks away over the hills, whistling...*
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*Pulls out binoculars* *Holds a stolen C4 detonator at the ready* *silent cackle*
