This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.

[Panix]

NO.
They take away the tornado in many cases, but ****? Not by a long shot (have you seen luigi's glide toss?) You are right about the utilt though, its bad news.



LOL NO.



Listen to this mann. I did when I had to fight panda, and it kept me from getting ***** TOO hard lol (not because snake is better, but because panda is WAY better than me).

Snakes nair has almost 40+ frames of high priority attack and comes out in the early 5 frames.

your nair comes out early but isn't as reliable as snakes nair.

 

[MrEh]

your nair comes out early but isn't as reliable as snakes nair.

Luigi's Nair is the reincarnation of Jesus, only in foot form.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Luigi's nair is a bit better for obvious reasons. Don't mock it. I think we should take into account that some stages like Luigi's Mansion and Mario Circuit are banned in some regions like the one I live in.

On a side note, someone will HAVE to write synopses or summaries for the other characters.

 

[Ken Neth]

Luigi's nair is ****. /discussion

LOL.

Panix, didn't you say you didn't have any luigi experience when we started this discussion?

Edit:

On a side note, someone will HAVE to write synopses or summaries for the other characters.

What do you mean?

 

[Dark Ryu]

What do you mean?

He means that someone needs to write an overview of that character matchup. Like for example, on the first page of this thread you have falco and D3 etc...

 

[Ken Neth]

I know that's what he was referring to. I'm not that dumb.

What I was asking was why does there HAVE to be writeups for all the characters, while linking them to the actual discussion that took place will suffice. Also, we haven't even done all the matchups, so until then we can't have a writeup for all the characters.

Writing a summary takes way more time than it is worth to me, but if anyone feels up to writing a summary for them I will be more than happy to update the first post with it. Just make sure to keep it in the same format as the rest of the summaries.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

For convenience and quick reference, as all of the character matchup threads have it or will have it. I'll try to do Diddy based on the discussion in this thread and the Diddy matchup thread in the morning. Good Night. Oh. Can you tell me which stages benefit Snake and which ones don't against Diddy? My guess is that Diddy does well against Snake on Rainbow Cruise and Jungle Japes.

 

[Ken Neth]

If people are too lazy to read a few pages of discussion to find out everything about the matchup, then they don't deserve to actually know the match-up LOL. That's just my opinion. But if you are up to writing the summaries, then I will gladly put them in the OP.

 

[hippiedude92]

Snakes nair has almost 40+ frames of high priority attack and comes out in the early 5 frames.

your nair comes out early but isn't as reliable as snakes nair.

40 frames that can be easily DI'd towards to or out of :/ I rather see snake's Bair more reliable here then Nair since luigi's will be living off their pivot grabs.

 

[napZzz]

what you luigi players aren't noticing is that snake has the 2 things that **** him-

A good camping game, and alot of range.

You cant really gimp him, and its hard to get close for kill moves vs. a campy snake with a good keep away game.

I think DMG summed it up far better than anyone else has so far

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Okay.

This my summary for Diddy. Feel free to edit wherever necessary.

Difficulty: 55:45 Snake’s favor

Things to be watch out for:

• Bananas. He will be using them a lot.
• Rocket-Barrel deploys after getting hit by a Grenade, Nikita, C4, or mine.
• KOs by spikes. Both his dair and Monkey Flip can spike.
• Banana Choke Chain Grabs.
• Banana locks on the ground. Top level Diddy’s can do this with only one Banana.
• Utilt to grab combos at very low percentages.


Strategy:


Diddy is a very unique character to play against. He has a rhythm and style all his own. The first thing that needs to be covered is Bananas. He has several uses for them and the amount will only increase as the metagame matures. One of these uses includes the Banana CC, in which he will grab release you to slip on a Banana. He’ll most likely set this up by having a banana right behind you. Good Diddys will do this across the stage until there’s no more stage. From there, Diddy will most likely attempt a spike.

Diddy can also perform Banana Locks (A.K.A. Dribbling) , which racks up damage and can set you up to get spiked. There are many other things he can do with them, including doing a forward smash and aerials while holding one. This is why it is very important to relinquish him from control of his bananas asap, which, fortunately, Snake can do so well.

You can use your dash attack, nair, and Mortar Slide to grab them. You can also grab them mid throw. This eliminates a lot of options and makes the fight much easier. Make it your top priority. Your tilts outrange most of Diddy’s moveset, so use them, but only after you have taken control of his bananas, or you will find yourself getting banana locked.

When using your Grenades, C4, Mines, or Nikita, watch out for Barrel Canelling. When he gets hit by one of the wile charging his Barrel, they will fly off of him in an unpredictable trajectory towards you and have good knockback. Diddy can also Barrel Cancel using bananas if he is not in control of them.
The factor that gives Snake an advantage in this matchup is that Diddy lacks killing power. Provided you DI and not get spiked, you will live over 150%, especially if his KO moves are stale. You can SDI out of his forward smash, thus making it harder for him to kill. This is why his KO’s have to be obtained through spikes from his Monkey Flip or dair. Make sure you recover as high and as far as you can to prevent this. On the other side, Diddy is a lightweight and your up tilt can kill him at roughly 115%. Play smart and fast and always keep his bananas in check and you will be victorious.



Counterpicks:

• Battlefield - The platforms hinder his banana tactics and you can pressure him
with your tilts easily here.
• Brinstar – The acid helps you survive spikes and the stage layout prevents him
from consistently using his bananas.

Bans:

• Jungle Japes – Diddy’s spikes can KO Snake at early percentages on this stage.

I Don't have time to do the others at this time.

 

[hippiedude92]

What you snake players aren't noticing is that Luigi has 2 things that **** him as well.

A very good air game and combo/kill game. Don't think luigi won't ever get inside his range.

Yes we can gimp him. Snake's are pretty easy to gimp; If he goes too high, juggle trap, pivot grab him if he trys to land on stage or you can tornado chase him in the air. If hes too low, hes asking for a dair spike or stage spikes.

 

[Atash]

Snakes nair has almost 40+ frames of high priority attack and comes out in the early 5 frames.

your nair comes out early but isn't as reliable as snakes nair.

Define reliability? Do you mean reliably observable? That is one of the reliabilities of Snake's N-air - one can reliably follow it all the way to the ground from many Snake-heights above the stage (admittedly, with some but not a lot of landing lag), whereas Luigi's N-air can be pulled off twice within a single short-hop with roughly zero landing lag. The reliability certainly does not lie within the aspect of speed.

As Hippiedude stated:

40 frames that can be easily DI'd towards to or out of :/ I rather see snake's Bair more reliable here then Nair since luigi's will be living off their pivot grabs.

Then there's the reliability of direction of knockback. An opponent can DI out of Snake's N-air in any roughly diagonal direction. The reliability of Luigi's aerial in direction is that the opponent is going to always go up upon contact - no ifs or buts about it. The DI aspect comes into play AFTER the opponent has been hit upwards, however Luigi's reliably fast N-air, relative to Snake's, allows him to more reliably follow an opponent (given that the opponent does not have incredibly fast DI, which Snake doesn't) and combo.

The reliability of priority and hitbox is the only (questionably) comparable aspect. Luigi's N-air hitbox surrounds his entire body for the full duration of the attack, appearing to also include his head for some bizarre reason (I may not be observing this correctly, however). Snake's hitboxes have intervals (albeit, short intervals) of non-existence, allowing Luigi to pull off a fast-falling N-air if he manages to DI out of the first few initial hits (that is, of course, if the Snake somehow manages to even pull off an N-air nearby the air-superiority fighter Luigi).

And by the way - don't the Snake play-guides state that the N-air isn't an attack one ought to use? Why is that, I wonder?

what you luigi players aren't noticing is that snake has the 2 things that **** him-

A good camping game, and alot of range.

You cant really gimp him, and its hard to get close for kill moves vs. a campy snake with a good keep away game.

I think DMG summed it up far better than anyone else has so far

First off - camping. I agree with you. Range - I agree with you.

"You cant really gimp him" - I don't agree with you. Although Luigi has low aerial maneuverability, Snake has even less. Off the stage, Snake's reliably predictable recovery is his bane. Combine that with the fact that Luigi can in fact spike him out of the cypher with his down aerial and that the slowness of said cypher contributes to said spike; Snake can, in fact, be 'gimped'. I'm not saying Luigi cannot - but the concept of 'gimpage' deserves some looking into (Hippie put it nicely, to say the least).

"keep away game" - just what is a keep away game? Is it running away from a faster opponent? Against an overly aggressive Luigi, a 'keep away game' isn't going to do the Snake much good. Someone's eventually going to be hit. It drivels down to a question of what happens at melee range if you want to look at it that way.

Here's DMG's post:

I would think Luigi would have a hard time with a really campy Snake (Not talking about just throwing grenades, but rolling away after shield camping if Luigi gets too close). If Luigi can't approach very well vs Snake on the ground (for multiple reasons, sliding in his shield backwards after getting hit, not having good ground range, Snake having ground traps/projectiles to avoid), than that just leaves aerial mixups mostly (I mean you can try stuff on the ground but I'd think the air is preferable). Rolling away from Luigi if Snake absolutely has to is pretty hard for Luigi to punish when he is in the air.

Luigi gets murdered on the ground, and he's slow movement wise in the air. It's also hard for him to hit Snake's shield in the air and still be safe, the only thing I can think of would be a well spaced Bair and maybe rising-retreating aerials. But to hit his shield/him, you gotta move into his range first. Not saying Luigi can't do that, but he's gonna be the one putting in a lot of work to win in this matchup compared to Snake.

I think it's 60:40 for Snake probably or more on the neutrals/majority of stages. Can't approach that safely on the ground, has trouble with Snake being able to roll if he's under pressure while Luigi is in the air, Snake has grenades/c4/mine for Luigi to avoid. Really Luigi's strong point are being able to kill Snake quick when his kill moves land and keeping him in the air, but you also have to remember that Luigi has to get inside Snake's range first before he can kill him or try to get him in the air. You combine grenades, ******** tilts/Bair/Nair, rolling/occasional mortar slide as a last resort to reset the position, and I don't see Luigi having it as even.

I'm going to poke at DMG's second paragraph. While Luigi may be slow in the air, one has to put into account that Snake is far slower. Yes, Snake has to be tossed into the air first for that to even come into play, but that then results in the only difference between your explanation of how things would shake down and the vast majority of Luigi players' opinions being that of Luigi's approach, which, granted, you did speak about.

About Luigi being murdered on the ground... True. There are always certain situations, however, that can give either character the advantage.

Poking some more fun at DMG's first paragraph - the aspect of a character rolling away consistently being a reliable countermeasure to chasing isn't one hundred percent true. A Snake is eventually going to be punished for a mis-roll, and given that rolls don't necessarily damage the opposing Luigi, the match winds back down into Luigi's approach. Also, if the pressure driving Snake into rolling is being performed via short-hop aerials, chances are that the Luigi will be able to fast-fall into a tornado and punish the roll due to the tornado's ground speed (in my untested opinion - roughly as fast as Sonic). The multi-hit tornado's final blow fires the opponent straight up, which then leads to combos.

If you pull up the aspect of grenade camping, yes, I realize that shield dropped grenades can explode upon tornado - however, a Luigi who is serious about the match will be keeping track of the timers on your grenades as you pull them out, and will be able to react accordingly. This includes grabbing the grenade, running to where the Snake stands, and shielding; grabbing the grenade, baking it for the remainder of its time, and throwing it; whatever else the Luigi can think of. Granted, Snake's dodge-roll is quick... But...

Rolling does not seem to be a smart Snake's best option for playing 'keep away' as far as I can see against a smart Luigi. If the match-up is really 60-40, Snake's favor, there's probably a better option against Luigi's approach you aren't telling us.

Now... as for DMG's third paragraph. I actually agree with you about everything except for the numbers that you've given. This match seems to depend too much on one character doing one thing or the other character doing another thing and the opposing character of either character doing something characteristically charismatic to chronologically counter... 'c'em. *cough* Okay, my attempts at using consonance obviously fails, but a reader should be able to understand that (don't judge me! -.-' ). In the case of Snake, it's how he reacts to the approach, and in the case of Luigi, it's how he reacts to the counter of his approach. Whoever starts reading the opponent first is probably going to win - thus my continued support of 50-50.

 

[DMG]

Caution: Wall of Text coming up.

What you snake players aren't noticing is that Luigi has 2 things that **** him as well.

A very good air game and combo/kill game. Don't think luigi won't ever get inside his range.

Yes we can gimp him. Snake's are pretty easy to gimp; If he goes too high, juggle trap, pivot grab him if he trys to land on stage or you can tornado chase him in the air. If hes too low, hes asking for a dair spike or stage spikes.

Lol I mentioned that as his strengths: Being able to kill Snake soon when his kill moves land and having a good air/combo game. It's not like I'm saying "Lolol Luigi is helpless, 70:30 Snake's favor."

The problem, as I see it, is this:

Luigi, I would think, is heavily discouraged from trying to approach on the ground since his range cannot match up to Snake's range and since he has issues sliding back in his shield. He also possibly has c4/grenades to watch out for. That and he only has a few moves on the ground to set up Snake into the air/into a combo. So, it looks like Luigi's best bet is usually for him to go to the air.

Now, although Luigi is excellent at comboing in the air for multiple reasons, he has two big flaws in his air game. One is that he honestly doesn't have that spectacular of range in the air, and the other is that his movement in the air is slow. Snake has quite a bit of range with Uair, Bair, and Nair. He also can Utilt, possibly OOS, he can try Usmash (U can aerial through it obviously but still something to think about) he can lob grenades slightly upwards or shield drop them and fool around with them (Jumping near you and airdodging before they explode, sitting in his shield with one and try to let it explode on you when you approach, toss it down and shield drop another one to make the first grenade's momentum suddenly halt, and other applications), and Snake can also reset the position fairly well if he needs to. He has a great roll length that is fairly quick, and he also can mortar slide if he sees an opening.

Luigi is gonna have trouble dealing with Snake if he can just roll out of danger, and Luigi's not the best at trying to chase people down horizontally while in the air. He also has trouble getting to the ground with his fall speed for maybe a surprise Down B to try and sweep Snake before his roll is over/to catch him mortar sliding. Now, Luigi can deal with these better when he is on the ground, but he also has to deal with his ground problems if he chooses to do so.


That's why I don't think it's even. Luigi is gonna have to put in a lot more effort than Snake to keep up. Now, obviously Luigi can get inside his range, I expect it to happen eventually even if it's only because the Snake player messed up or was too risky. But the effort Luigi has to put in to get to that point is clearly a lot more effort than what Snake has to do. Luigi can **** him in the air, the question is how hard is it to get him there? And I think the answer is that it should be really hard. Harder than what Snake has to do to try and be safe.


Edit:

"keep away game" - just what is a keep away game? Is it running away from a faster opponent? Against an overly aggressive Luigi, a 'keep away game' isn't going to do the Snake much good. Someone's eventually going to be hit. It drivels down to a question of what happens at melee range if you want to look at it that way.

Luigi, for the most part, has to approach. He lacks range compared to Snake. It's hard to get to that "melee" zone because of the range/possibly grenades he has to get past first.

Here's DMG's post:


I'm going to poke at DMG's second paragraph. While Luigi may be slow in the air, one has to put into account that Snake is far slower. Yes, Snake has to be tossed into the air first for that to even come into play, but that then results in the only difference between your explanation of how things would shake down and the vast majority of Luigi players' opinions being that of Luigi's approach, which, granted, you did speak about.

About Luigi being murdered on the ground... True. There are always certain situations, however, that can give either character the advantage.

Actually, I think Snake is faster moving in one direction alone. Like, have Snake and Luigi double jump at the same time, going to the left. Snake should travel faster horizontally. Now, if Snake wants to weave, or change directions, Luigi is clearly better at turning his momentum around and going the opposite way or going multiple ways in one jump.

Poking some more fun at DMG's first paragraph - the aspect of a character rolling away consistently being a reliable countermeasure to chasing isn't one hundred percent true. A Snake is eventually going to be punished for a mis-roll, and given that rolls don't necessarily damage the opposing Luigi, the match winds back down into Luigi's approach. Also, if the pressure driving Snake into rolling is being performed via short-hop aerials, chances are that the Luigi will be able to fast-fall into a tornado and punish the roll due to the tornado's ground speed (in my untested opinion - roughly as fast as Sonic). The multi-hit tornado's final blow fires the opponent straight up, which then leads to combos.

Not rolling away constantly, rolling away when Snake thinks that he absolutely cannot stop Luigi at his current approach, so he drops back and rolls. If Luigi is approaching with Short Hops, there's a greater threat of Utilt or even Ftilt scraping him. I'd rather either sit still or try to force Luigi to airdodge if he is short hopping, it's when he full hops or DJ's and Snake doesn't feel comfortable that he rolls and Luigi can't punish.

If you pull up the aspect of grenade camping, yes, I realize that shield dropped grenades can explode upon tornado - however, a Luigi who is serious about the match will be keeping track of the timers on your grenades as you pull them out, and will be able to react accordingly. This includes grabbing the grenade, running to where the Snake stands, and shielding; grabbing the grenade, baking it for the remainder of its time, and throwing it; whatever else the Luigi can think of. Granted, Snake's dodge-roll is quick... But...

Rolling does not seem to be a smart Snake's best option for playing 'keep away' as far as I can see against a smart Luigi. If the match-up is really 60-40, Snake's favor, there's probably a better option against Luigi's approach you aren't telling us.

I'm not just talking about using them to stop tornado, it makes Luigi have to be more careful when he approaches since Snake can toss them, hold them, cancel their momentum, strip them from you, etc. Now, he doesn't have to shield drop a grenade and then roll, that's just an option for him to consider if Luigi is in the air and falling with, say a Nair.

Now... as for DMG's third paragraph. I actually agree with you about everything except for the numbers that you've given. This match seems to depend too much on one character doing one thing or the other character doing another thing and the opposing character of either character doing something characteristically charismatic to chronologically counter... 'c'em. *cough* Okay, my attempts at using consonance obviously fails, but a reader should be able to understand that (don't judge me! -.-' ). In the case of Snake, it's how he reacts to the approach, and in the case of Luigi, it's how he reacts to the counter of his approach. Whoever starts reading the opponent first is probably going to win - thus my continued support of 50-50.

the reason I think Snake has the advantage is this:

Snake outranges Luigi in the air and on the ground. Luigi is usually the one who has to approach, given Snake's better projectiles and Luigi's somewhat subpar camping game. Range wise, Luigi is troubled when he has to approach. He can't just approach directly and try to beat out Snake's attack, he has to mix it up to try and get past his range and then "go for gold" and try to combo him. So already, Luigi usually has to approach, he's outranged in the air and on the ground, he can't really camp Snake back as efficiently as Snake can camp, and if Snake feels that all else fails he can roll or try to reset the position when Luigi is in the air.

Luigi has to work harder than Snake does to try and win. I mean, Luigi is already out ranged, out projectiled (I don't even think that is a phrase lol, but you know what I mean), and Luigi is the one who is usually gonna have to approach for the match. Yes, Luigi can **** Snake in the air, but do you see how hard he has to work to get to that point? I don't think it's a fair trade off for Luigi to have to go through that much trouble just to get a shot at putting Snake in the air.

 

[Panix]

I don't know how to put into words what im saying with snakes nair in usefullness aginst luigi's

Im saying luigi does recover with his forward B. which is just like falco.

and a well placed nair does the same justification that it does to falcos.

Again I might be totally wrong and luigi's nair could be a godsend that has so much priorty even MK's tornado dosn't mess with it. but im saying luigi suffers from the same recovery problem most falco's have aginst a snake.

 

[Atash]

@ DMG:

Not rolling away constantly, rolling away when Snake thinks that he absolutely cannot stop Luigi at his current approach, so he drops back and rolls. If Luigi is approaching with Short Hops, there's a greater threat of Utilt or even Ftilt scraping him. I'd rather either sit still or try to force Luigi to airdodge if he is short hopping, it's when he full hops or DJ's and Snake doesn't feel comfortable that he rolls and Luigi can't punish.

A question: where should Snake be camping? If it's at the edge of a platform (such that he's maintaining the largest distance possible from Luigi as the green guy approaches), why would Luigi every full-hop? The aspect of things being situational is bugging me to no end on this and is really pushing me to say that the approach problem is countered readily by the aerial superiority.

I'm not just talking about using them to stop tornado, it makes Luigi have to be more careful when he approaches since Snake can toss them, hold them, cancel their momentum, strip them from you, etc. Now, he doesn't have to shield drop a grenade and then roll, that's just an option for him to consider if Luigi is in the air and falling with, say a Nair.

I realize you weren't talking about it that way. I was saying that so I would not be called a hypocrite by anyone who read the first post I made in this thread >_<.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In total, anyway, you've converted me to considering it an advantage for Snake, simply because it has been agreed upon that the approach is the first element of Luigi's game and the advantageous combos the second element, rather than the approach being the first element of Snake's game.

By your argument, however, shouldn't the match-up then be in Luigi's favor for stages that significantly change (however few they may be)? Say, Rainbow Cruise and perhaps Pokemon Stadium?

EDIT:

I don't know how to put into words what im saying with snakes nair in usefullness aginst luigi's

Im saying luigi does recover with his forward B. which is just like falco.

and a well placed nair does the same justification that it does to falcos.

Again I might be totally wrong and luigi's nair could be a godsend that has so much priorty even MK's tornado dosn't mess with it. but im saying luigi suffers from the same recovery problem most falco's have aginst a snake.

Luigi's Side-B recovery is at its best used to sweet spot the ledge (and is rarely even used - the tornado is usually more than enough to get to the edge). If you want to commit suicide by pulling off an N-air right above the edge and falling to your death just to attack Luigi's recovery, be my guest. As a SAM (Snake to Aerial-Luigi Missile :D ), I believe even Snake's forward aerial is better than his N-air.

EDIT EDIT: Wait - wait. *cough*. Okay, so you wouldn't be commiting 'suicide' per se...

EDIT EDIT EDIT:
Okay, so - well... ... ... Wait, couldn't Luigi DI out of the N-air anyways and then edge-guard from there...?

 

[Panix]

@ DMG:



A question: where should Snake be camping? If it's at the edge of a platform (such that he's maintaining the largest distance possible from Luigi as the green guy approaches), why would Luigi every full-hop? The aspect of things being situational is bugging me to no end on this and is really pushing me to say that the approach problem is countered readily by the aerial superiority.



I realize you weren't talking about it that way. I was saying that so that I would not be called a hypocrite by anyone who read the first post I made in this thread >_<.

In total, anyway, you've converted me to considering it an advantage for Snake, simply because it has been agreed upon that the approach is the first element of Luigi's game and the advantageous combos the second element, rather than the approach being the first element of Snake's game.


By your argument, however, shouldn't the match-up then be in Luigi's favor for stages that significantly change (however few they may be)? Say, Rainbow Cruise and perhaps Pokemon Stadium?

EDIT:


Luigi's Side-B recovery is at its best used to sweet spot the ledge. If you want to commit suicide by pulling off an N-air right above the edge and falling to your death just to attack Luigi's recovery, be my guest. As a SAM (Snake to Aerial-Luigi Missile :D ), I believe even Snake's forward aerial is better than his N-air.

Most stages like rainbow cruise against a snake vs a ariel character snake have a disadvantage to anyway. but you don't see alot of fighting their with snake due to bann's

 

[Panix]

@ DMG:

forward aerial is better than his N-air.

Never will snakes fair be better then his nair.

This was suppose to be a edit, i don't know why a new post happened.

Also, I don't think im thinking correctly anyway, like i said, i played inexpirenced luigi's who think c-stick should be banned. they foward B from high up making their end trajectory quite predictable. a well placed nair punishes it.

i'll be quiet from now on. DR. wario knows the match-up better. i like the input he's putting in.

 

[Atash]

@ DMG:

forward aerial is better than his N-air.

Never will snakes fair be better then his nair.

This was suppose to be a edit, i don't know why a new post happened.

Also, I don't think im thinking correctly anyway, like i said, i played inexpirenced luigi's who think c-stick should be banned. they foward B from high up making their end trajectory quite predictable. a well placed nair punishes it.

i'll be quiet from now on. DR. wario knows the match-up better. i like the input he's putting in.

For future reference... Could you quote more than that next time? People can read that and say, from this 'text-bite', that I had stated that Snake's F-air is better than his N-air, when really I was only saying it was so for a certain situation... And such misunderstanding is kind of... bad...

 

[Panix]

For future reference... Could you quote more than that next time? People can read that and say, from this 'text-bite', that I had stated that Snake's F-air is better than his N-air, when really I was only saying it was so for a certain situation... And such misunderstanding is kind of... bad...

I quoted that part because if your snake and you use your fair period your setting yourself up for failure.

 

[DMG]

@ DMG:



A question: where should Snake be camping? If it's at the edge of a platform (such that he's maintaining the largest distance possible from Luigi as the green guy approaches), why would Luigi every full-hop? The aspect of things being situational is bugging me to no end on this and is really pushing me to say that the approach problem is countered readily by the aerial superiority.

There's not really a perfect distance for Snake to camp. I mean, it's harder to hit Luigi the further away he is, but it's also easier to camp him with that distance. I think the best distance is where Snake is about 2 and a half Ftilt lengths away, maybe a little shorter and not totally with his back to the edge. This lets him camp Luigi a bit, gives him space to move back a bit if he needs to, and at that range you can tell pretty ok how Luigi will continue to approach.

As for the full hop, Luigi shouldn't always SH, like I said there's a better chance of Ftilt or Utilt nabbing him from a SH than if he full hops. Also, for the double jumps I meant like if he approaches with like an aerial, hits your shield, and tries to do a DJ rising Nair to help cover him.

I realize you weren't talking about it that way. I was saying that so I would not be called a hypocrite by anyone who read the first post I made in this thread >_<.

Haha it's cool.

In total, anyway, you've converted me to considering it an advantage for Snake, simply because it has been agreed upon that the approach is the first element of Luigi's game and the advantageous combos the second element, rather than the approach being the first element of Snake's game.

By your argument, however, shouldn't the match-up then be in Luigi's favor for stages that significantly change (however few they may be)? Say, Rainbow Cruise and perhaps Pokemon Stadium?

I do think Luigi has the advantage on a few stages and even/close to even on a few more as well. I think RC he has the advantage, a stage like Delfino looks interesting, IDK how Brinstar or Pipes would turn out, I think Lylat is bad for Luigi, same for Castle Siege, FD, and YI.



Also, Panix I think he was talking about using Fair to hit Luigi out of Side B rather than Nair, and I'd say that in some instances Fair is a LOT better than Nair, especially if you can spike his Side B. If not, you also don't have to worry about Luigi SDIing out of Fair as he can to Nair, although if I was gonna Nair him I would try to nab him with the last 2 hits or even the very last kick to negate my opponents ability to SDI out of it.

 

[Panix]

Also, Panix I think he was talking about using Fair to hit Luigi out of Side B rather than Nair, and I'd say that in some instances Fair is a LOT better than Nair, especially if you can spike his Side B. If not, you also don't have to worry about Luigi SDIing out of Fair as he can to Nair, although if I was gonna Nair him I would try to nab him with the last 2 hits or even the very last kick to negate my opponents ability to SDI out of it.

I also want to put in that i hardly ever connect with my nair the full 4 hits.

double jumped ff nair is to good imo.

 

[hippiedude92]

Argh. too many wall of texts. too much to read lol.

I'll get my wall of text, as soon i start reading all these and stop being so lazy

 

[Atash]

Off Topic:

Argh. too many wall of texts. too much to read lol.

I'll get my wall of text, as soon i start reading all these and stop being so lazy

What's entertaining to think about is that almost half of the text from the walls of text is coming from the quotation of other peoples' walls of text. Just look at those huge quote blocks peppering this thread >_< Lawls - someone's going to have an <sarcasm>AWESOME</sarcasm> time making a summary out of this (even if you don't know HTML conventions, you should still understand what I meant :-P ).

On Topic:

I have a question (this is more for poking the Luigi people than the Snake people):

Let's all assume that Snake appears to have a small to moderate advantage over Luigi due to Luigi's need to approach. Let us then assume that we could magically, without changing any other aspect of the game, that we could change the approach to make it work 100% of the time. Would it then be Luigi's advantage?

Given that we've already established the approach to be the driving factor of Snake's advantage in this match-up (I believe I'm sponsored by DMG in this case - if not, just say so and I'll apologize for 'using' you, sir), there's a distinct possibility that Luigi's combo-superiority in the air and early kills could drive the match-up in his favor.

This then leads me to ask... How many different ways can we approach that force Snake to use a different method of punishing us - a method that if chosen incorrectly could allow Luigi to punish the mistake? If there are different ways that can cause such orthogonal effects, is there any way to make any two or more look the same? If there aren't different ways, is there any way to just utilize our fireballs as projectiles (novel concept, I know) incessantly and call it a day (thrown grenades clank with fireballs rather than detonate, nikitas are either deflected or explode [I dunno], the effect of camping seems diminished, perhaps)?

I'm not willing to attempt to answer this question at the moment (irrespective of my recent walls of text, I actually have things to do, believe it or not :-P ), but perhaps Hippie could elucidate when he posts his wall of text :-D

 

[hippiedude92]

I'm still being lazy to post a wall of text. I'll get to it pretty soon i guess. Let me count the approaches luigi has.

He has the classic Dair Nair approach, it can't be shielded grabbed when it's spaced correctly.
RARBair, main stay approach luigi's love to do. Can't be punished when spaced correctly as well.
SH fireballs, walking fireballs another meat of Luigi's game. Mostly baiting, working inside like a extra arm.
Tornado approach, Luigi's can do t his to rush towards them if there isn't any thing laid out.
He has rising Nair approach; same thing as Dair Nair thing.

that's the approachs i can think of ATM.

Personally.. I find it a 50/50 definitely hands down, when Snake doesn't have anything laid out on field and also depending on the stage (RC says alot).. unless there are things that are laid out, MAYBE i'd go for a 55-45.. but 60-40 just doesn't cut it...

edit: sorta misread Atash's text lmao.

Things with platforms, help me approach since I can get away from nades and such. But meh that's just me :/ Most snakes will attempt to do a upsmash.

 

[Vorguen]

You guys should get the summaries on Snake vs Marth going. I am looking forward to them.

 

[DMG]

I'm still being lazy to post a wall of text. I'll get to it pretty soon i guess. Let me count the approaches luigi has.

He has the classic Dair Nair approach, it can't be shielded grabbed when it's spaced correctly.
RARBair, main stay approach luigi's love to do. Can't be punished when spaced correctly as well.
SH fireballs, walking fireballs another meat of Luigi's game. Mostly baiting, working inside like a extra arm.
Tornado approach, Luigi's can do t his to rush towards them if there isn't any thing laid out.
He has rising Nair approach; same thing as Dair Nair thing.

that's the approachs i can think of ATM.

Personally.. I find it a 50/50 definitely hands down, when Snake doesn't have anything laid out on field and also depending on the stage (RC says alot).. unless there are things that are laid out, MAYBE i'd go for a 55-45.. but 60-40 just doesn't cut it...

edit: sorta misread Atash's text lmao.

Things with platforms, help me approach since I can get away from nades and such. But meh that's just me :/ Most snakes will attempt to do a upsmash.

Dair to Nair... from what height? If SH'd, Snake can just Utilt or even Ftilt you. Maybe even Jab depending on your positioning.

Bair's are hard to punish, but if you are trying to space those well you aren't getting inside Snake's range, so you're not accomplishing much aside from poking at him, which can get dangerous if he PS's it or gets too close.

Fireballs are kinda meh, shield/PS them, or get hit by it on purpose and hit Luigi if he tries to follow up on it since the fireball doesn't have that much knockback/hitstun.

Tornado is vulnerable to accidentally hitting shield dropped grenades, and it also leaves Luigi open if you end it too close to Snake.

Now, obviously I don't expect Snake to be able to stuff those approaches 100% or near 100% of the time, but those aren't exactly really good ways to get reliably past his range and try to Nair/Utilt/combo him. I actually do not think Luigi has a reliable or near reliable way to get inside Snake's range, he's gonna have to fake him out somehow.

I think it's be more useful to try and mix up airdodges in, with fast falling and random tornado's in the air but near the ground to try and hit him. Maybe Dair into fast falled airdodge into buffered Utilt or grab. Now obviously this, like just about anything, can get predictable, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

 

[CR4SH]

DMG you're right. Luigi can't, under any circumstances, RELIABLY approach snake. Or anyone for that matter. There's nothing luigi can do that will, more often than not, get him inside. I'd say at best, any approach attempt he makes gives him 25-30% chance to get in, 50% to poke or reset, and the rest to get punished for it. Thats just the way luigi is.

However, when luigi DOES get inside, he's mother****ing murderous. At 0%, a sourspot nair, jab, or grab of any type is nearly always going to net 30-50%. Luigi's game is about poking, prodding and pressuring your way inside, so you can get a few hits in before your oppoent is able to reset the situation (the higher his damage, the quicker he can reset, but he's more vulnerable to the KO).

Snake does a decent job, actually no, a very good job of keeping luigi out of his range. He has good options, and a brilliant defensive game. The problem is that he is VERY bad at reseting the situation. Once luigi manages to get in, snake is one of the easiest characters to keep a string of hits alive on, and he's not terribly hard to KO. This is mostly because he has noticeable and predictable lag on one part of pretty much every move in his arsenal.

This results in a matchup where, if either party is noticably worse than the other, they get W-W-W-Wrecked. 50-50 dude.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I think you guys are really underestimating Wigi's ground game. Yeah, he's got a great air game. That's not all there is to him.

Also, dair to nair is REALLY outdated by now.

 

[DMG]

DMG you're right. Luigi can't, under any circumstances, RELIABLY approach snake. Or anyone for that matter. There's nothing luigi can do that will, more often than not, get him inside. I'd say at best, any approach attempt he makes gives him 25-30% chance to get in, 50% to poke or reset, and the rest to get punished for it. Thats just the way luigi is.

However, when luigi DOES get inside, he's mother****ing murderous. At 0%, a sourspot nair, jab, or grab of any type is nearly always going to net 30-50%. Luigi's game is about poking, prodding and pressuring your way inside, so you can get a few hits in before your oppoent is able to reset the situation (the higher his damage, the quicker he can reset, but he's more vulnerable to the KO).

Snake does a decent job, actually no, a very good job of keeping luigi out of his range. He has good options, and a brilliant defensive game. The problem is that he is VERY bad at reseting the situation. Once luigi manages to get in, snake is one of the easiest characters to keep a string of hits alive on, and he's not terribly hard to KO. This is mostly because he has noticeable and predictable lag on one part of pretty much every move in his arsenal.

This results in a matchup where, if either party is noticably worse than the other, they get W-W-W-Wrecked. 50-50 dude.

The thing though is that I believe that the trade off Luigi gets (having a very difficult time approaching/landing anything in exchange for a good combo game) is slanted towards Snake's favor a bit. He can't reset the position very well when he is getting combo'd, but he can reset it when you approach/he has incredible tools to make approaching a pain compared to most characters. If you guys think that trade off is even, that's cool. I just think it's slanted towards Snake on the neutrals and a few CP's, with the rest being even/near even or in Luigi's favor (although I am interested to see how Luigi would do on certain stages).

 

[hippiedude92]

I agree with the certain stages as well. and lol @ Sp yes it really is outdated. Everyone knows about it <3.

From what gone through before, Nair's will trade off with ftilt but if not that, then definitely snake's utilt. The tip of luigi's foot sticking out like in a jackie chan stance like ( can't put it into word use lol), I believe strongspot trades off with snake making snake pop up in the air. Since snake is in the air higher then luigi (again this what I have gone through when I fight snakes), luigi will usually be on the ground first DEPENDING on the %s. Basically summarize it = Nair trades off with utilt, both chars are in the air, luigi SHOULD hit the ground (again said before experience), first and have him where he wants him in the air.
I def know the Nair > Snake's jab or at least the sourspot of Nair. lol, luigis jab and snake's jab clank with each other. lol'dful.

In all srsness, when you mean slanted at least let it be 55-45. 60-40 just seems mehish :/.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Don't underestimante the hitbox of Snake's Utilt.
Is there another stage where Luigi has an advantage? Over 90% of Snakes will ban Rainbow Cruise anyway.

 

[hippiedude92]

lol? why would anyone underestimate snake's utilt ? LMAO. Nair will majority of the time trade hits because of it's weird high priority. Lol even though snake's will ban RC, it doesn't exclude the fact his at a disadvantage there. *tries to think of other stages*

 

[Atash]

Interesting news...

I did some testing, and I've found some odd trade off of hits mixed up with clanks and some such.

Attacks that clank:
Luigi ---- Snake
Jab 1 ---- Jab 1
Jab 1 ---- F-tilt 1
F-tilt ---- F-tilt 1

Attacks that trade hits:
Luigi ---- Snake
N-air ---- U-tilt*

Now... the one marked with an asterisk is of particular interest. It's a situational trade off of hits that doesn't necessarily always occur and upon happening tends to result in Luigi flying far above Snake and Snake flying a minute distance off the ground (tested with both characters initially at 0%). On the other hand, this trade off of hits is far less likely to occur than one hit landing or the other hit landing exclusive of the opposing hit.

That is to say that it's more likely for one opponent to get the shaft.

If Luigi pulls off his N-air well within the range of Snake's U-tilt (his head or even less of his body is beneath the level of Snake's foot upon Snake's U-tilt), and Snake attacks with his U-tilt, the manly whooshing of a sound that signifies Snake's powerful move plays, but Snake receives damage and vertical knockback. If Luigi pulls off the N-air from behind Snake (or any attack from behind Snake for that matter), the lack of a U-tilt hitbox behind Mr. Explosive allows the attack to succeed.

In every other case that I've managed to create that doesn't involve a trade off of hits, however, Snake's U-tilt overpowers Luigi's N-air.

As for how exactly the trade off occurs, I wasn't paying much attention. My guess is that Snake has a hurtbox that overlaps a little but not entirely with his U-tilt hitbox, and that this hurtbox is extended upon the U-tilt's hitbox coming into existence (that is to say, they both come extend/come-out in the same frame). This immediacy combined with Luigi's hitbox could cause the trade off of hits... But that's just my guess.

My conclusion is that the trade off of hits stemming from Snake's disjointed hitbox and hurtbox will happen rarely in competitive play, if only because most Snakes would know the range of their attacks and attack with the tips of their attacks rather than the insides of their attacks. Not only that, but the trade off appears useless unless Snake already has high% damage and Luigi has low% damage anyway...

Oh - and something I just learned. Snake's U-tilt has longer horizontal range than Luigi's F-tilt by roughly half of Luigi's already skinny width.

By the way, guys, I never tested Luigi's free-falling D-air, which supposedly has higher priority in the downward direction than even his N-air, against Snake's U-tilt. If anyone else could do that, that'd be nice.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, as for the clanking that's apparent between Luigi's jabs and Snake's jabs (and F-tilt!?)... It brings up an interesting proposition... Maybe short-hop air-dodges into buffered jabs as an approach?

It adds an element of orthogonality to Luigi's different approach methods; because it is a short hop, it looks similar to the rest of his short hop approaches, and lends itself to the proposed mindgames in my previous post.

Yes? No? Just throwing ideas out :-D


EDIT:
Note: I apologize for coloring Snake's name black, thus making it hard to read... But... Everyone deserves some color, jah?

 

[hippiedude92]

LMFAO!!! Luigi's jab clanks with snake's ftilt? TOO GOOD LMFAO! I'm pretty sure snake's jab clanks with tornado at least.

And this is why I acknowledge people who wall of text because it really burns my eyes ( don't get me wrong it's good **** rofl.).

I'm watching myself doing a SH fireball buffered into a jab. And since anything buffered into jab is like lighting fast, (literally humans can't react but I forgot which frames is it correct me on this). jab leads to alot of options with luigi's.

You should try testing retreating Dairs as said before, it has a really unsuspecting range and hitbox when really looked at. First glance it really looks like some petty twirl :/

Also does that mean, Snake's utilt completely ***** Luigi's Nair? From every point and side? Like the heel of snake's foot?

 

[Atash]

LMFAO!!! Luigi's jab clanks with snake's ftilt? TOO GOOD LMFAO! I'm pretty sure snake's jab clanks with tornado at least.

And this is why I acknowledge people who wall of text because it really burns my eyes ( don't get me wrong it's good **** rofl.).

I'm watching myself doing a SH fireball buffered into a jab. And since anything buffered into jab is like lighting fast, (literally humans can't react but I forgot which frames is it correct me on this). jab leads to alot of options with luigi's.

You should try testing retreating Dairs as said before, it has a really unsuspecting range and hitbox when really looked at. First glance it really looks like some petty twirl :/

Also does that mean, Snake's utilt completely ***** Luigi's Nair? From every point and side? Like the heel of snake's foot?

To be certain, one must test. I didn't test Snake's jab versus any of Luigi's other attacks simply because attempting to manipulate two controllers at once is nigh impossible for me. I had enough trouble as it was just testing the U-tilt trade offs and F-tilt clanks... Attempting to test retreating D-airs would be a whole 'nother level of mental pain by itself.

Granted, for testing Snake's Jab 1 vs. Luigi's Tornado, Snake does have an auto-jab which leaves both of my hands free to manipulate Luigi... But, I don't feel like running to the basement to test - I'm enjoying my music too much :-D

Luigi's N-air is spared of **** by Snake's U-tilt if and only if it connects with Snake's hurtbox (and even then, an unfavorable trade off of hits may occasionally occur). From what I can tell, Snake's hitbox is disjointed from his hurtbox right up until the split second before he pulls his leg from the air back to the ground. At that instant, an N-air can hit his foot and cause damage, but such timing is so ridiculously thin that it isn't something to be relied upon (yes, I failed to mention this in my previous post).

To put it simply, if Luigi is in the path of Snake's leg and cannot either interrupt the attack or hover right above it until the split second Snake's hurtbox encompasses his hitbox or dodge it entirely - Luigi is given a firm "FWOOMPH" to the face.

Please note, however, that I haven't tested any of Luigi's aerials against the disjointed hitbox located in front of Snake. That area should be of primary concern, along with falling D-airs (which my meager four limbs cannot hope to test decently), lest we continue to fear the U-tilt...

Hippie's suggestion of retreating D-airs come far later in my book (mostly because of the mental paiiiinnn required to test it as a single person) :-P

 

[hippiedude92]

You tested alone? You should test with another person to be completely sure. Sometimes both of your hands and fingers won't go in synch together all the time :/

When you mean disjointed box you mean the invisible hitboxes you can't see right? (I'd like it if you say that, sometime's I get mixed up with disjointed =/= invisible hitboxes >.<.

And yeah lol, the sound of the utilt when it lands makes luigi scream and myself scream too as well XDDDD!.

I think snake's disjointed or invisible hitboxes (w/e you call it) is the equal range to Luigi's Bair :O. That's just from my eyes though.

 

[Atash]

You tested alone? You should test with another person to be completely sure. Sometimes both of your hands and fingers won't go in synch together all the time :/

When you mean disjointed box you mean the invisible hitboxes you can't see right? (I'd like it if you say that, sometime's I get mixed up with disjointed =/= invisible hitboxes >.<.

And yeah lol, the sound of the utilt when it lands makes luigi scream and myself scream too as well XDDDD!.

I think snake's disjointed or invisible hitboxes (w/e you call it) is the equal range to Luigi's Bair :O. That's just from my eyes though.

What was nice about the situations I was testing was that they all were simple - the clanks didn't require much in the way of timing. If I messed up the timing one character would get hit without any sign of the other character even initiating an attack; if I succeeded, there was a clank with visible and distinct initial attack animation on both sides. As for the U-tilt testing, I based that on visual cues; timing wasn't necessarily an issue due to Luigi's N-air having its priority last and last and last.

Regarding invisible hitboxes - yes, I believe I messed up my terminology right there. Snake's invisible hitbox outranges Luigi's F-tilt. Different nomenclature, however, doesn't change just how ridiculous such range is (lawls).

By the way - where did the Snake side of this discussion go?

 

[hippiedude92]

they went to go back to their base to fap and make moar bombing nade factories yes? XD. Well how about let's be gay by adding more post and taking a page of theirs by discussing quickly on the stage issue as this is usually the last one if yyou can't decide on the ratio espically if its a 50/50 or 45/55 discussion? Hands down luigi has like 50-50 or 55/45 on RC on snake. Though obviously most snake's players will say that they will ban it (yes i know tourney wise), it doesn't exclude the fact he's at a disadvantage.

I can't really think of other stages except for luigi mainers love to do is at Cornia and Brinstar as luigi specializes highly there.

 

[Atash]

A quick addition - tack on 'walking and f-tilting' as an approach. Said approach can be mixed up by crawldashing back just outside of Snake's U-tilt range and fireballing (rinse, repeat) or f-tilting (good idea due to its clank-iness? It probably clanks with the U-tilt's invisible hitbox, but I dunno, I'll check that out later). As for Snake's D-tilt (which has not been discussed at all)... I'm still confused as to how it may or may not affect these approaches. There are just so many ways that an approach could be made and could be countered or fail to be countered...

they went to go back to their base to fap and make moar bombing nade factories yes? XD. Well how about let's be gay by adding more post and taking a page of theirs by discussing quickly on the stage issue as this is usually the last one if yyou can't decide on the ratio espically if its a 50/50 or 45/55 discussion? Hands down luigi has like 50-50 or 55/45 on RC on snake. Though obviously most snake's players will say that they will ban it (yes i know tourney wise), it doesn't exclude the fact he's at a disadvantage.

I can't really think of other stages except for luigi mainers love to do is at Cornia and Brinstar as luigi specializes highly there.

I don't think that going for low ceiling stages would give Luigi that much of an advantage - Snake's U-tilt has ridiculous range and ridiculous Snakeback (it's so strong that it defies the rather weak definition of knockback), thus making such stage attributes questionable. I mean, potential-kill-wise and percentage-wise, I would place a low ceiling as being more advantageous to Luigi than to Snake - but in case I'm wrong, I think a few other things need to be going for Luigi first...

Due to the relatively easy time Luigis have with spiking Snake and aerial superiority, especially off-stage, I'd be more inclined to place greater emphasis on the stage having large, wide open spaces between ground and blast zone and a cramped central platform or set of cramped central platforms, preferably with uneven terrain than to put emphasis on vertical 'shortness'.

Stages with anti-camp gimmicks are more than welcome :-D

Now... I'm going to rapidly jump through a few stages with little to no analysis. Be prepared for mindlessness:

Hanenbow

Believe it or not, Hanenbow comes to mind as a nice stage for this, but if I'm not mistaken, it's banned...​

75m

I'm absolutely serious! Snake may move quickly in the air, but he certainly isn't mobile enough to camp the upper level, and the rest of the level with its variety of spaces and platforms that can be attacked through and jumped through and... and... like. Really. I mean... Just look at it! It's almost screaming, "Advantage, Luigi!" with its huge variety of anti-camper mechanisms. Too bad it's banned <_<​

Pictochat

While Pictochat changes often, there's a certain 'safe zone' in the lower left that is devoid of all hazards and changes (save for the influence of that guy who blows [pun intended]). Not particularly advantageous to either character (as in, there's no additive effect) - it doesn't change enough to horribly affect Snake's camping game or to allow Luigi an easy approach. The central platform is too big for positive effects stemming from the transformations to even be noticeable...​

Castle Siege

2/3rds of Castle Siege (1st [uneven, cramped] and 3rd [wide empty spaces on the sides, relatively small central stage] forms) matches up okay.​

Lylat Cruise

Lylat Cruise is... Is... Well, if it doesn't favor Luigi, it probably favors Snake.​

Frigate Orpheon

Frigate Orpheon moves around a bit, has a few platforms... and it has roughly uneven terrain. Sounds like a fair match.​

AWESOME IDEA I JUST HAD!

Delfino Isle and Halberd... Why do I group these two together? Because their central platforms spend a relatively large amount of time floating in the middle of nowhere. What's so interesting about floating in the middle of nowhere? Rise-through platforms. What's so awesome about rise through platforms?

T3h Mindgames! What if, let's say, a Snake has just thrown Luigi off of the edge of the platform while in mid flight? Let's say that you sort of 'whiffed' a Side-B recovery and Snake is standing there being a happy edge-guarder. TORNADO YOUR WAY BACK UP INTO HIM AND BE LIKE, "WUT NOW!?" *cough* Okay, so, that was uncalled for, but really, just a little idea... It doesn't make or break the match, just adds one more way of getting into Snake's personal bubble (admittedly, this suffers from the edge-guarding Snake dropping grenades at the edge). Actually... No - this is entirely situational and should probably only be attempted, like, once per match (if that!).

But, really, with regards to Delfino, like DMG said, it'd be an interesting match-up... Halberd's cramped quarters, low in-flight ceiling and wide open air spaces should give Luigi some decent chances at getting face-to-face with Snake and taking him OUTSIDE for the match!​

Spear Pillar

... that lower level screams 'camp-mania!' to me. The stage gimmicks, in my opinion, aren't near enough in number or widespread power to counter Snake's campiness on the lower level...​

Norfair

I'm leaning towards saying that it's advantage Luigi, due to the variety of platforms. The only place Snake can effectively camp is the bottom platform (everywhere else Luigi can get beneath him and start an aerial combo), and even then, the stage gimmicks should eventually force him away from that lone place of solace.​

Smashville

*CRACK* Snake just put me to sleep... No anti-camp gimmicks, almost zero stage variability. That moving platform doesn't do jack to assist Luigi.​

Rainbow Cruise

It's already been accepted that RC gives Snake the shivers. Yay for the green thunder!​

Okay, that's all that I feel like doing... I'm sleepy... And my abilities of rational thought are failing me. I may have made a few logical errors within the above post - feel free to bash me for them :-P