Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[_Magus_]

That's just the combo counter in training mode being misleading and only accounting for what the game "thinks" is hitstun.

I'm probably just misreading what you said, @ A2ZOMG , but please, what in Ganon's name does that have to do at all with what he just said? XD

EDIT: nvm, figured it out. It's been one of those days...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay, I found a way to count frames by using video editing software on Ganondorf footage I downloaded on my computer (I specifically used this video from @Conda), though it's not completely perfect. But to make a long story short...I've confirmed with certainty that Ganon's Jab is still 8 frames startup.

KINDA DISAPPOINTED because we REALLY could have used this buff against Sheik especially. Only reason it probably looked faster outside of frame advance is just because on crappy 30 fps footage it's hard to see all the animation startup frames.

I'm too lazy to check exact numbers for anything else given 95% of everything else just seems clearly the same. The only other really seriously important thing is that F-air has 7 frames less landing lag according to the Japanese. Otherwise if we need frame data, Big O's Ganondorf frame data for Brawl mostly has everything we need as long as we factor that we can't AC D-air and that landing with F-air is noticeably safer.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay, I found a way to count frames by using video editing software on Ganondorf footage I downloaded on my computer (I specifically used this video from @Conda), though it's not completely perfect. But to make a long story short...I've confirmed with certainty that Ganon's Jab is still 8 frames startup.

KINDA DISAPPOINTED because we REALLY could have used this buff against Sheik especially. Only reason it probably looked faster outside of frame advance is just because on crappy 30 fps footage it's hard to see all the animation startup frames.

I'm too lazy to check exact numbers for anything else given 95% of everything else just seems clearly the same. The only other really seriously important thing is that F-air has 7 frames less landing lag according to the Japanese. Otherwise if we need frame data, Big O's Ganondorf frame data for Brawl mostly has everything we need as long as we factor that we can't AC D-air and that landing with F-air is noticeably safer.

I would really love to know the range and speed on/of Ganon's smashes and aerials. His DSmash seems to have the same range as his FSmash (which has somewhat of a disjointed range). NAir seems to be his faster aerial now, and I think it comes out below 8 frames.

Is there any data on the shield drop lag and the shield put up lag?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay there's an advanced technique that was carried over from Brawl but with a few differences.

Gerudo Ledge Lag Cancelling/Cancel (GLLC) Similar to what Z1GMA pointed out in another thread, where Ganon can cancel full hop fair's lag with any B move.

In Brawl when Ganon was on the ledge, if he would DJ > UAir he would just fall down without grabbing the ledge, but if he DJ > UAir > Gerudo towards the ledge he instantly grabbed it.

In Smash 4 the ledge mechanics are different as we all know, no character can DJ and regrab the ledge after having grabbed it once until a short while later, but similar to Brawl if Ganon were to DJ to UAir, and now even BAir > gerudo towards the ledge he would grab it almost instantly this time.

But the what I really want to point out is that, in Brawl if you were to run off stage near the ledge and Uair and Bair you would grab the ledge after the animation, and this was only possible for the Nair and Dair if you GLLCed, and this was not possible for the Fair at all.

In Smash 4 it's a bit different. If you full hop any aerial off stage near the ledge, Ganon would grab the ledge instantly. But if you short hop any aerial, Ganon will only regrab the ledge if it was from an Uair (in Brawl this was possible with both sh uair and bair, with sh nair and dair if you gllced, and not with sh fair at all, as I mentioned above).

But in Smash 4 if you SH off stage and GLLC you can grab the ledge instantly instead of avoiding it with ALL aerial moves, including the Fair this time.

GLLC was very underrated in Brawl, and only a few Ganon (like @Ijosh) really abused it. In this game it seems like it'll be very situational, but being able to grab the ledge after any sh aerial near the edge (even after hitting your opponent) can do you wonders in advanced levels of game play.

SH > Fair near ledge off stage > gllc > follow up Is much quicker than SH > Fair near ledge, miss ledge fall down only to have to recover.

 

[Thinkaman]

Now if I understand how teching works in this game, it is probably worth keeping in mind that your opponent probably is not allowed to tech Flame Choke if they were actually shielding. This is because when inputting the shield button (which allows you to tech), it also forcibly creates a window where you are not allowed to input a tech afterwards.

How true is this?

I just confirmed this completely and utterly false. Even a late shield input (where the shield never came out) still allows a tech.

Happy Halloween everyone!

 

[A2ZOMG]

I just confirmed this completely and utterly false. Even a late shield input (where the shield never came out) still allows a tech.

Happy Halloween everyone!

They really changed the fundamental tech timing in this game? What are we talking, 64 style teching?

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, the animation of flame choke is pretty long...

 

[Xinc]

Found out that there's some little window at the end of Ganondorf's up tilt that will allow him to do the axe kick no matter what. This is excellent for trying to get recovering opponents into thinking they can stop it. Thoughts?

Did it against a Rosa twice in one match but couldn't record because I didn't have any more space. Ugh. The last hit she managed to get a get up attack on me but my axe kick came by and traded, which was magnificent.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Found out that there's some little window at the end of Ganondorf's up tilt that will allow him to do the axe kick no matter what. This is excellent for trying to get recovering opponents into thinking they can stop it. Thoughts?

Did it against a Rosa twice in one match but couldn't record because I didn't have any more space. Ugh. The last hit she managed to get a get up attack on me but my axe kick came by and traded, which was magnificent.

Ledge attacks in general are not fully invincible unless I'm mistaken. Or are you talking something else?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The UTilt hitbox itself may have the most priority in the game due to being an explosive hit, and it has more extended backwards range.

A Sonic rolled behind a UTilt I was charging and charged a forward smash and attacked me as soon as I let go of the kick, although he was behind me, he was blasted away despite hitting Ganon's back.

 

[Xinc]

Ledge attacks in general are not fully invincible unless I'm mistaken. Or are you talking something else?

I don't think ledge attacks are all invincible either. It's possible she hit the explosive radius of the move just after it started, thus causing the giant trade.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I've done some testing of Dark Fists and how easy/hard/reliable it is to link the two hits together. Basically, I've found that heavyweights on the ground/next to Ganon tend not to get hit high enough to land the second hit, especially at low %s, though there are some exceptions. It seems to link against DK, Samus, Bowser Jr, and Yoshi(except maybe at 0% for him) just fine, but doesn't against Bowser, Dedede, or Wario unless you hit them from below. Charizard is % dependent and requires you to angle the move diagonally rather than vertically to land it from the ground.(You also should angle the punch diagonally if you land the outer edge of the first hitbox in general to more consistently land the second one, as they can otherwise fly out) Lightweights can sometimes fly out too far if they get hit from below while they have upward momentum from a jump or something like that, but usually they'll get hit by both punches. The big problem as far as lightweights that I've found is Jigglypuff, as she'll fly away if hit from below with or without upwards momentum. Middleweights don't seem to get out of anything with any consistency as far as I can tell. All of this was done in training mode, so I don't know how vectoring, rage, or anything else might affect what I've found.
Edit:
Here's a list of all the characters where Dark Fists doesn't seem to link reliably:
Bowser
Dedede
Wario
Falcon
Megaman
Jigglypuff
Charizard and Yoshi don't seem to be completely reliable at low %s, but most characters don't seem to be affected much if at all by %s. Ike needs to have the punch angled diagonally for it to link. Most lightweights(usually Zelda and lighter, but there are exceptions like Palutena) can get out if hit from below while having upward momentum(right after a jump) but this is very situational and probably not a big deal unless they can vector out in a wider range of situations. Also note that in all cases except for Jigglypuff the move will hit reliably if you hit them from below, so if you use the move strictly for recovery against those characters you probably won't run into too many problems.(and even Puff will fly too far away to punish you)

 

[AquaTech]

The glitch I was referring to is his Fair being unable to autocancel for the entire move. If you ever looked into the coding for his Fair via PSA, you will see that they intended his Fair to AC after a certain amount of frames, but the window for autocanceling the move never occured because they goofed with the timer (the count starts after the hitbox instead of the start of the move like every other aerial in the game).

I think we are actually on the same page regarding this bug. The fact that the move can never autocancel means that if it ends at the exact frame before you are about to land, you still get the landing lag because the flag to land normally was never set. That's the reason you can't buffer an aerial or double jump, but buffering a special skips it.

The window for autocanceling being bugged and the aerials ending exactly before you land from a full hop is what causes this behavior.

I'm copying this from the AT thread as I think it would be better here. I'm just experimenting with Ganon and unsure of what's being said here. Does it mean that his aerials don't autocancel ever? (Unless you use B-moves?)

 

[Big O]

I'm copying this from the AT thread as I think it would be better here. I'm just experimenting with Ganon and unsure of what's being said here. Does it mean that his aerials don't autocancel ever? (Unless you use B-moves?)

A bug makes it so that his Fair always gets landing lag, even after the IASA window kicks in. It behaves similarly to air dodges in this game where you get landing lag until the animation ends, even though you can interrupt your air dodge before then.

Buffered full hop Fair's landing lag gets skipped when you buffer any special move.

With more air time than a full hop you can also bypass Fair's landing lag with another aerial or just double jump instead of landing.

Basically Fair can't autocancel, but you can interrupt it before it ends so it's k.

 

[Xinc]

It appears that Ganondorf's aerial wizkick's initial hitbox as two different kinds of hitboxes. If the opponent is behind Ganon, they're sent straight down. If in front or next to the foot, opponent is sent at the diagonal kick trajectory. This raises the question if the behind hitbox is a meteor smash, and if spikes exist (since this isn't an actual meteor smash, because it sends at a really diagonal angle.

 

[Daeyrat]

Actually, it's related to its moment, not position.
If you hit the enemy with aerial wizkick's first active frames, it's a meteor. Just like in brawl

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon is the third slowest character in this game, a bump up from second slowest in Brawl (above only Jigglypuff, who would spend most of her time in the air anyway). The two slower ground speed characters this game are Jigglypuff and Robin.

His fastest walk speed is the second slowest, above just Jigglypuff.

 

[Primer TMT]

In the ground, but only a few attacks like smashes, tilts are fast

 

[SaltyKracka]

Every game against a D3 I play just reminds me how terribly suited Ganondorf is for this game.

 

[Sykkamorre]

A thought just came to me.

Are there any chars with moves that can be used before they hit the ground after a grounded Flame Choke?

Y'know, like megaman's upB possibly?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Every game against a D3 I play just reminds me how terribly suited Ganondorf is for this game.

D3 may end up being one of Ganon's worst match-ups. Mainly, mainly, mainly because of that projectile.

 

[Slack is Love]

D3 may end up being one of Ganon's worst match-ups. Mainly, mainly, mainly because of that projectile.

For midstage against Dedede, wizkick seems to work alright against the gordo. It makes the timing of hitting it back a little easier, and since Dedede has to worry about the gordo coming back at them, it's not easy for them to punish the kick. Offstage though, yeah, that's probably not easy to deal with.

Plus Dedede gets mollywopped by flame choke follow ups, which makes it easier.

I have so much more trouble against fast characters with projectiles like Sheik, ZSS, Greninja, where it's hard to deal with both the projectile and having them just running up and grabbing you if you block. You pretty much have to hope that they get complacent with spamming the needle/shuriken/paralyzer so you can jump over and punish.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Every game against a D3 I play just reminds me how terribly suited Ganondorf is for this game.

D3 may end up being one of Ganon's worst match-ups. Mainly, mainly, mainly because of that projectile.

Are you sure Fullhop N-air/U-air isn't effective? Should easily hit the Gordo and can be used to poke DDD simultaneously because he's extremely tall. Or heck, even SHFF F-air should be pretty good against him.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I know the best of ways to deal with it, trust me. It's not that, nor should it be that. His Gordo, like every other projectile in this game, is unlimited. The way he can angle it, protect himself with it, guide it off stage, pretend to use it for a bait, and even get a kill with it, is what makes it deadly, especially for a slow aerial and ground character like Ganon. D3 can use his Gordo in so many ways, it's nasty.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Not to mention that his disjoints and jab absolutely wall Ganon out.

 

[_Magus_]

Really? I haven't had too much trouble against DDD. Guess I need to play better DDD's.

 

[Xinc]

DDD is difficult, especially that he can Zone you out. But one way to get unpunished for an approach is to get close enough to Dedede to pressure him to throw out a Gordo and WizKick it. Place yourself so upon hitting his shield, you can go through but will end up in the lagless position right off the ledge. Or just behind him, up to you lol

 

[Z1GMA]

DDD can be tricky. He can zone you out really bad if he's got good reactions and MU-experience.
However, if Ganon gets some air under his wings, bad things are bound to happen for DDD.

 

[Daeyrat]

Have you guys tested Custom Ganon in 1x1?
Maybe my friends don't know how to deal with him yet, but they say he's "too strong". I'm not using Equipments. It made hard matchups like Link much, much easier.

I used:
Warlock Blade
Flame Choke/Flame Chain (multi hit)
Wizard Dropkick (blue)
Dark Fists (hit only)

 

[ElPanandero]

Really? I haven't had too much trouble against DDD. Guess I need to play better DDD's.

This I've played DDD more than anyone else, and I always smash on em. Gotta fina D3 apparently

 

[Xinc]

I normally do Warlock Blade, Flame Choke (Chain against certain characters), Wizard dropkick, regular up b.

 

[Daeyrat]

Try Dark Fists. It works like Zelda's teleport. Fast startup, but kills at 75%. Has Super armor too.
Excellent for both FFA and 1x1s.

 

[FEFIZ]

Sorry if my post is in a wrong thread but, which are the best Ganon custom moves to use in a competitive scene? Thanks!

 

[Daeyrat]

Probably the choices I've made.

Here's an agreement.
http://smashboards.com/threads/suggested-custom-specials-for-every-character.376530/

As for why:

***Neutral B - Warlock Blade (2)
The standard form was buffed. Got super armor, but the range is still limited. While the 3rd variation is faster, it loses super armor and serves no purposes because it's too weak. The warlock blade retains super armor and is only slightly weaker than a fsmash, but the range is enourmous. The range alone makes you dangerous at new distances.

***Side B - Flame Choke (1) or Flame Chain (3)
Flame Wave (2) is designed for FFAs. It has kill power and huge area of damage. Flame Chain travels farther and pushes the enemy, granting you advantageous position. Flame Choke is good for mixups and ground control. Good against Mac por example.

***Down B - Wizard Dropkick (2)
The standard one is trash. Unsafe and poor rewards. The 3rd variation (Assault) doesn't change the move in a meaningful way. Dropkick, though, allows Ganon to jump over projectiles (covers one of his weaknesses) and its aerial variation grants him godlike recovery power (his OTHER weakness). Basically, with one move, you patched his problems.

***Up B - Dark Fists (2)
His standard and Vault (3) variations aren't really that useful. Poor knockback. They're mostly used to get back to the stage. His 2nd variatin DOESN'T decrease his reach (in comparison to 1), but adds new stuff. Fast armored kill move. Kills at early % and can be used whenever your opponent messes up and does something unsafe up close.

 

[Xinc]

Different topic here, but I found something odd about Ganon's Wizard's Foot. It seems like the last hitbox right before the kick ends deals a remarkably high knockback that can kill people, not unlike the megabus in PM and melee.

 

[_Magus_]

Yeah, I've been able to kill offstage with wizkick pretty easily. And it always happens to be right at the end. Go figure

 

[Xinc]

Yeah, I've been able to kill offstage with wizkick pretty easily. And it always happens to be right at the end. Go figure

We're talking grounded or air, here? I'm talking grounded (though air is remarkably stronger... given Ganon's weight, it makes sense that he's plowing his entire weight through this attack)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Sorry if my post is in a wrong thread but, which are the best Ganon custom moves to use in a competitive scene? Thanks!

After having tested his moves out quite a lot, my opinion on what his best custom moves are have changed. Though, remember, all of his custom moves have unique uses and each one may all be very useful for different match-ups, and even be switched around during the same match-ups if your opponent switches. The custom move which I find to be the worst is Wizard's Assault, in the air it has a straight downward hit which always spikes (seems good when used right at the ledge), but the move is just too slow and predictable both on the ground and in the air.

Forward B: Flame Wave is an underestimated move. I didn't think this before, but the move KOS. Yes, it KOS very early. The move starts up like a flame choke, but goes a smaller distance and has a bigger start-up time and more overall lag. It does 8% more damage than a normal flamechoke on the ground, and 5% more damage than an aerial flamechoke. I believe that in the competitive scene, Ganon's forward B customs will be the most interchangeable. All 3 of them have very good and useful uses.

Upwards B: Dark Fists seems to be the best here, but before I go into it, I want to mention that Dark Vault (two grabs special) seems kinda very good, but also kinda mehish. I say this because it gives Ganon another command grab along with his others, and has the ability to grab twice, it also goes higher in distance which can help Ganon in those positions which he'll usually not be able to recover back. Though the bad factor about the grab seem to out weigh the good. No uppercut, only 4% damage per grab (for Ganon standard, that's horrible), though the grab potential on stages with platforms is amazing the RCO lag and normal lag on stage if used is horrible. Now to Dark Fists. Dark Fists is amazing, it's a move that can scare the opponent into not messing with Ganon off stage, and it has the ability to setup kills even by taking a hit on stage! If you keep the normal wizard kick, flame wave, and warlock sword/punch along with this move, then nearly every move in Ganon's arsenal can kill.

Neutral B: Warlock Thrust. Yes. Warlock Thrust is probably his option. Warlock Thrust is probably the closest move to a projectile Ganon has. Underestimated, and in a quite decently fast paced game like Smash 4, you need faster moves. Warlock Thrust is like a very laggy flame-thrower, or more like a flame burst, but with darkness. It hits not only a good amount of range in front of you, it can hit opponents on platforms. Even then, I'd prefer this on stages with no platforms because of the disjointed 'projectile-like' range it has. The move won't ever kill though, it is good to use in unique situations (usually when your opponent is on a platform). This move can hit your opponent standing on the highest platform in Battlefield if you're standing on one of the two lower ones. The move has a different number of hitboxes, but all of which cancels if any other one hits. Damage ranges from 21% - 9% (reverse included). Warlock Sword is still not out of the box here, but I don't think a good player should get hit by that move at higher levels of play.

Downwards B: Wizard Kick default. I prefer this, and I also believe this to be Ganon's best down special. Wizard Drop Kick is amazing, don't get me wrong, and especially now when people don't know what to expect, but as the metagame develops the move will get more and more predictable, and the fact the it erases any early approach or 'fluke' options for Ganon is a horrible nerf for Ganon. I mentioned this elsewhere with a discussion with @ Thinkaman , but I'll mention it again, Ganon's default kick also has intense kill power in a downward angle below him in the air, and this is hugely beneficial for a character like Ganon in so many ways.

 

[Twoyears]

Forward B: Flame Wave is an underestimated move. I didn't think this before, but the move KOS.

I would also like to mention that the aerial version of wave for whatever reason kills about 20% earlier than the grounded version.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I would also like to mention that the aerial version of wave for whatever reason kills about 20% earlier than the grounded version.

Yes. An unvectored grounded flame wave should kill Bowser at about 107%, and an aerial wave should kill him about 127%. And this is against Bowser, probably the heaviest character in the game overall.