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Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

Ray_Kalm

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
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Ontario, Canada
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Ray_Kalm7
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'The Wise Ganon' (Moveset & Competitive Discussion)



Rather than discussing Ganon's capabilities, problems and whatnot in multiple threads (I counted 3), let's put everything in one.

@ Z1GMA Z1GMA @ A2ZOMG A2ZOMG @ Vermanubis Vermanubis @ Bahamut777 Bahamut777 come here.

I'll update this OP and make it neater as we get more talking & time goes by.

www.Xat.com/Ganondorf_Brawlers - Chatroom
-------------------------------------------------------------------

*NOTE: Before reading whatever is written, you should understand that the game may have balance changes which can possibly change anything stated below. - Source, Credits to @ Daeyrat Daeyrat

Ganon's techniques:

Aerial Gerudo Pull Back:
You can pull your aerial flame choke backwards. This is good for ledge Ganoncides.

Flame Choke Follow Ups: *Note: Many of these follow ups can be avoided by teching and are determined by the input roll or getup attack the opponent chooses.



(http://imgur.com/9LhItgJ - for website view)

Character Jab F-tilt D-tilt
Bowser Yes Yes Yes
Bowser Jr. Yes Yes Yes
Captain Falcon No No HYES
Charizard Yes Yes Yes
Dark Pit No Yes Yes
DDD Yes Yes Yes
Diddy Kong No Yes Yes
Donkey Kong Yes Yes Yes
Dr. Mario No Yes Yes
Duck Hunt Yes Yes Yes
Falco Yes Yes Yes
Fox No Yes Yes
Game & Watch Yes Yes Yes
Ganondorf No Yes Yes
Greninja No No Yes
Ike No Yes Yes
Jigglypuff Yes Yes Yes
Kirby Yes Yes Yes
Link Yes Yes Yes
Little Mac No No Yes
Lucario Yes Yes Yes
Lucina No No Yes
Luigi No Yes Yes
Mario No Yes Yes
Marth No No Yes
Megaman No Yes Yes
Metaknight Yes Yes Yes
Mii Brawler Yes Yes Yes
Mii Gunner Yes Yes Yes
Mii Swordsman Yes Yes Yes
Ness No Yes Yes
Olimar Yes Yes Yes
Pacman Yes Yes Yes
Palutena No No Yes
Peach No No Yes
Pikachu Yes Yes Yes
Pit No Yes Yes
R.O.B. Yes Yes Yes
Robin No No Yes
Rosalina No No Yes
Samus Yes Yes Yes
Sheik No No Yes
Shulk Yes Yes Yes
Sonic No Yes Yes
Toon Link No Yes Yes
Villager No Yes Yes
Wario Yes Yes Yes
WFT No No Yes
Yoshi Yes Yes Yes
Zelda No No Yes
ZSS No No Yes


Ryu & Roy: No follow ups
Mewtwo: Jab, D-tilt on tech away
Lucas: D-tilt & F-tilt (credits to @adom4)

- Posted and submitted by @rahsosprout

From http://sns.prtls.jp/smashterra/newly_diary_login.html?id=398&did=034b3a35167de914b

You get NO followups on the following:
:rosalina::4sheik::4ganondorf:
:4pit::4darkpit::4palutena:
:4myfriends::4falcon::4wiifit:
:4lucina::4marth::4greninja:

Jab only on:
:4dk::4samus::4link:
:4duckhunt:

D-tilt only on:
:4peach::4zelda::4littlemac:
:4zss::4sonic:

D-tilt and F-tilt on:
:4mario::4luigi::4tlink:
:4robinm::4fox::4ness:
:4villager::4shulk::4megaman:

D-tilt and F-tilt and Jab on:
:4yoshi::4bowser::4bowserjr::4wario:
:4gaw::4diddy::4kirby::4dedede:
:4metaknight::4falco::4pikachu::4charizard:
:4lucario::4jigglypuff::4rob::4pacman:

D-smash
:4olimar:

Ryu & Roy: No follow ups
Mewtwo: Jab, D-tilt on tech away
Lucas: D-tilt & F-tilt

The tests do not include Miis, Shulk's Monado arts, and how DI affects followups (especially the D-smash one on Olimar). Dash Attack was not tested either due to difficulty of input on a 3DS. I can't really understand the other remarks they made given I'm working with google translate.

They also call the testing preliminary, and that things may be wrong or missing. I'll be editing this either when I hear word from anyone that there are corrections.

I'm personally keeping my eye on this, just for curiosity's sake. Good to know there's Japanese enthusiasm for Ganondorf at least.
Ganon's Frame Data:
Smash 4 runs at 60 frames per second (1 frame = 1/60th of a second). Basically, this means that everything you do happens within X frames after pressing buttons. Every action takes a certain amount of time to happen, which can be measured in frames.

Attacking frames are in yellow, invincibility frames are in green, super armor frames are in blue, and windboxes are in orange.


Active frames tell you both the earliest and latest frames a move does it's job. If a move hits multiple times, each hit will be separated by a comma.

The number you see under total frames essentially tells you how long it takes to complete the move. You can act freely starting from the next frame.


I haven't gotten around to doing some of the more obscure things like items/throws and will finish the custom move stuff when I can. If you see an xx, it's just a placeholder value to be filled in later. Any number marked with a question mark I haven't tested too thoroughly or at all.


Ground Attacks


Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes

Jab | 8-9 | 34 | 0 |

Grab | 7-8 | 35 | Unblockable |



Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes

Dash Atk | 10-19 | 41 | 5/3 | Weak hit 13-19

Dash Grab | 11-12 | 44 | Unblockable |

Pivot Grab | 10-11 | 41 | Unblockable |



Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes

Ftilt | 10-12 | 39 | 5 |

Utilt | 6-70 , 81-84 | 114 | 10 |20 Bonus shield damage

Dtilt | 10-12 | 35 | 5 |



Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes

Fsmash Up| 21-26 | 59 | 9 |

Fsmash Side | 21-26 | 59 | 9 | Charges on frame 10

Fsmash Down | 21-26 | 59 | 9 |

Usmash | 21-23 | 41 | 9/8 | Charges on frame 10

Dsmash | 15-18, 35-38 | 63 | 2, 5 | Charges on frame 5



Aerials


Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Landing Lag | Auto-Cancel Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes

Nair | 7-13, 20-32 | 44 | 18 | 1-3, 41+ | 4/2, 3/1 | Weak hit on frames 9-13, 22-32

Fair | 14-19 | 44 | 23 | 1-6, 55+ | xx/6 |

Bair | 10-12 | 35 | 20 | 1-6, 22+ | 3/5 |

Uair | 6-16 | 33 | 20 | 25+ | 5/4/3/2 | Weak semi-spike on frames 11-16

Dair | 16-18 | 44 | 28 | 1-3, 32+ | 0 | Transcendent priority



Neutral B


*No Super Armor in the air or when B-Reversed


Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes

*Warlock Punch | 70-71 | 117 | 11-62

Warlock Punch (B-reverse) | 80-81 | 127? |

*Warlock Blade | 53-58 , 60-66 | 117 | 8-52 ... 20/50 Bonus shield damage ... Transcendent priority

Warlock Blade (B-reverse) | 63-68 , 70-76 | 127? | 20/50 Bonus shield damage ... Transcendent priority

Warlock Thrust | 40-41 | 106 | Transcendent priority on explosion

Warlock Thrust (B-reverse) | 50-51 | 116? | Transcendent priority on explosion



Side B


Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Landing Lag | Notes

Flame Choke | 16-30 | 59 | |

Flame Choke (Air) | 19-31 | xx | 30 | Jump > Flame Choke lasts 73 frames

Flame Wave | 21-35 | 79 | |

Flame Wave (Air) | 24-35 | xx | 30 | Jump > Flame Wave lasts 78 frames

Flame Chain | 19-23 , 25-41, 43-45 | 93 | | The windbox is unblockable lol

Flame Chain (Air) | 27-38, 40-41 | xx | 30 | Jump > Flame Chain lasts 83 frames



Up B


Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Landing Lag | Notes

Dark Dive | 14-28, 34-36 | xx | 30? | First hit is a grab

Dark Fists | 15-16, 42-44 | xx | 26? | 5-14

Dark Vault | 14, 40-42 | xx | 36? | Both hits are grabs



Down B


Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes

Wizard's Foot | 16-35 | 76 | 4/3 | Can WKC during frames 40-50 (approx.) ... Ends on frame 68 offstage w/o WKC

Wizard's Foot (Air) | 16-38 | 57 | 5 | 10 Bonus shield damage

Wizard's Dropkick | 20-43 | 65 | 3/2 | Can WKC during frames 46-50 (approx.) ... Ends on frame 73 offstage w/o WKC

Wizard's Dropkick (Air) | 19-31 | 60 | 4/3/2 | 10 Bonus shield damage

Wizard's Assault | 29-46 | 87 | 3/2 | Can WKC during frames 51-62 (approx.) ... Ends on frame 78 offstage w/o WKC

Wizard's Assault (Air) | 32-44 | 73 | 5/4 | 10 Bonus shield damage



Dodge Data


Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes

Spot Dodge | 4-20 | 28

Front Roll | 4-21 |33 | Can cancel into item toss

Back Roll | 4-21 | 33 | Can cancel into item toss

Air Dodge | 4-29 | 34 | Landing Lag = 21



Ledge Data


Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes

Ledge Climb | 1-32 | 33 | Can't be buffered

Ledge Roll | 1-25 | 49 |

Ledge Jump | 1-12 | 12? | Can't buffer actions during jump

Ledge Attack | 24-26 | 54 | 1-21


Item Data


Tested using banana's

Hitbox is active as long as the item is airborne


Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes

Fthrow | 9+ | 25 |

Bthrow | 8+ | 23 |

Uthrow | 8+ | 26 |

Dthrow | 8+ | 23 |

Dash Throw | 5+ | 39 |



Can DI while airborne

Changes to ground values upon landing


Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes

Fthrow (Air) | 6+ | 21 |

Bthrow (Air) | 7+ | 23 |

Uthrow (Air) | 6+ | 23 |

Dthrow (Air) | 6+ | 23 |

Z-Drop | 1+ | 1 |



Extra Stuff


Jump Squat - 7 (Time it takes to go from ground to air/jump startup)

Full Hop - 44

Short Hop - 29

AC/Hard Landing Lag - 5 (Landing at high fall speed or with an AC'd aerial)
^ - Posted entirely by @Big O

Moves that hit Ganon's ledge hang: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hJGGMml_-YLuxAJHFhK5Zpj729pqEb5FEhBjc_SRsN0/edit#gid=0

Air choke follow ups: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K0nN9ktorpxb_S5NSa6eOVqoiax-pV32tVAyg5_Hecg/edit#gid=0

^ By @adom4

Tip Against Rob:

GYRUDO (Gerudo > Gyro Down Toss)
Ok, so I messed around with ROB's Gyro today, and Ganon can do some freaky stuff with it.

While holding the Gyro:
Gyrudo > pick up > FToss
I recommend Smash Tossing as it deals more damage and comboes more reliably during the FToss.
It does a whopping 36%.
Best thing about it, except the nasty damage, is that it works from like 0 to 80%, so it's not really a %-dependant combo.
Kills very early by the ledges as hit as the FToss its ROB while he's already close to the Blast Zone.

There are more combos as well, but they either aren't as reliable, does less damage, does only work on very low %s, or doesn't true combo.

Gyrudo > Wizkick 35%

Gyrudo > iDA (weak) + pick up > FToss > iDA (Strong) 60% (Not very reliable.)

^ Posted By @ Z1GMA Z1GMA

:rob: *sob*

I forgot to put it here lol, here's a compilation of google docs about Ganon data, Ray_Kalm Ray_Kalm can you add it to the OP please?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...kM76Bf74jvhM8OV_PU78dCWNGw/edit#gid=527703575
Ganon's UTilt hit and Wizardkick cancelling Positions:



- Posted and submitted by @Mister

Character's who are Hit by SH BAIR on the Ground:
I haven't seen one of these and I felt it could be useful to know which characters SH AC Bair can hit on the ground, considering how it's probably Ganon's best aerial approach option, so I decided to do some research and make a list.
Mario No
Luigi No
Peach Yes
Bowser Yes
Yoshi Yes
Rosalina Yes
Bowser Jr. Yes
Wario No
Game & Watch No
DK Yes
Diddy No
Link Yes
Zelda Yes
Sheik Yes
Ganondorf Yes
Toon Link No
Samus Yes
ZSS Yes
Pit Yes
Palutena Yes
Marth Yes
Ike Yes
Robin Yes
Kirby No
DDD Yes
Meta Knight No
Little Mac Yes
Fox No
Falco Yes
Pikachu No
Charizard Surprisingly No (At one part of his idle animation he raises his head and can be hit, but he can't while hunched over)
Lucario No
Jigglypuff No
Greninja No
Duck Hunt No
ROB Yes
Ness No
Falcon Yes
Villager No
Olimar No
Wii Fit No
Dr. Mario No
Dark Pit Yes
Lucina Yes
Shulk Yes
Pac-Man No
Mega Man No
Sonic No
Mii Size Dependent(Don't remember the height/weight of the Miis used for each Mii Fighter, so I'm going to say that the big ones get hit while the small ones don't)
^ Submitted by @ HeavyLobster HeavyLobster

What not to do:

Aerial Gerudo: Do not use aerial gerudo against Jigglypuff (and others?). She's able to tech and attack right out of it. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8zn9fr3BDE - Credits to @ A2ZOMG A2ZOMG , discovered by Japanese players
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Ganon's advanced techniques:

Cancelling Lag with Specials (Special Lag Cancel, SLC): You can cancel Ganon's forward air animation lag from a full hop with any B move (the hardest of these to do is down B, as it requires perfect timing so that you don't fast fall).

Gerudo Ledge Lag Cancelling/Cancel: Okay there's a new advanced technique that was carried over from Brawl but with a few differences.

Gerudo Ledge Lag Cancelling/Cancel (GLLC) Similar to what Z1GMA pointed out in another thread, where Ganon can cancel full hop fair's lag with any B move.

In Brawl when Ganon was on the ledge, if he would DJ > UAir he would just fall down without grabbing the ledge, but if he DJ > UAir > Gerudo towards the ledge he instantly grabbed it.

In Smash 4 the ledge mechanics are different as we all know, no character can DJ and regrab the ledge after having grabbed it once until a short while later, but similar to Brawl if Ganon were to DJ to UAir, and now even BAir > gerudo towards the ledge he would grab it almost instantly this time.

But the what I really want to point out is that, in Brawl if you were to run off stage near the ledge and Uair and Bair you would grab the ledge after the animation, and this was only possible for the Nair and Dair if you GLLCed, and this was not possible for the Fair at all.

In Smash 4 it's a bit different. If you full hop any aerial off stage near the ledge, Ganon would grab the ledge instantly. But if you short hop any aerial, Ganon will only regrab the ledge if it was from an Uair (in Brawl this was possible with both sh uair and bair, with sh nair and dair if you gllced, and not with sh fair at all, as I mentioned above).

But in Smash 4 if you SH off stage and GLLC you can grab the ledge instantly instead of avoiding it with ALL aerial moves, including the Fair this time.

GLLC was very underrated in Brawl, and only a few Ganon (like Ijosh) for example really abused it. In this game it seems like it'll be very situational, but being able to grab the ledge after any sh aerial near the edge (even after hitting your opponent) can do you wonders in advanced levels of game play.

- Submitted by @ Ray_Kalm Ray_Kalm


DACUS: https://vine.co/v/OAQtn1qE1L1 - Discovered by Japanese Ganons, credits to @Bloodynite

The Hell Drop: Summary of AT: From what it looks like, you can platform drop to aerial wizkick the lower level below you. But that's not the weird part. The weird part is you are able to do this in such a way that you Quake the platform, and then it INSTANTLY CANCELS leaving you airborne, which you can use to attack people below you with aerials almost instantly and other tricks.

Situational, but it certainly does make Ganondorf a lot scarier near platforms because not only can you reach people below you pretty efficiently, you have threatening mixups on people that are next to you on platforms. Now we need a new frightening name for this. I'm thinking something on the lines of the Hell Drop (as opposed to Platform Drop). - Submitted by @ A2ZOMG A2ZOMG , founded by Japanese Ganons

Video: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24502089 (Watch till the end)
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ganon's Match-ups:

Find a discussion of match-ups in this thread.

From worst to best (so far):

Rosalina: 35:65
Yoshi: 45:55
Luigi: 45:55
Peach: 45:55

Mario: 50:50
Bowser: 50:50

Mean: 46.67/53.33 (How Ganon fairs overall against the cast)
Mode: 50:50 (Neutral match-ups most common)
Median: 45:55 (The Middle Value, not really important)
Worst: 35:65 (Rosalina)
Best: 50:50 (Bowser, Mario)

Game Effects:

The Rage Effect:

Oh, and if vectoring is worth a mention here, I think the new info regarding "rage effect" should be added. It actually has a lot to do with the implementation of vectoring. If you've not heard yet, apparently "rage effect" is basically a new game mechanic where your moves have higher knockback the higher your damage. So if say Ganon uses his uncharged upsmash on a character with 0%, he will launch them higher if his percent is higher. The same move on the same enemy with the same damage could be an almost kill if you're at 50%, but a kill if you're at 150%. I think this could favor Ganon pretty well. He has the tools to kill at low percents keeping his enemies from utilizing their knockback buff from "rage effect" at high percents. While at the same time, his great weight will allow him to survive into higher percents better, for the most part, and give him a chance to punish even harder with his already devastating attacks. I think it stops effecting knockback around 150 though. I'll link a vid explaining better... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZPxLLaL4N8 - Posted by @ jahkzheng jahkzheng

-------------------

I was reading a post about the new replacement to directional influence called vectoring. I recommend you read it too, it's a very interesting new aspect. To understand what I'm about to say you'll have to read the first half at least.

I stumbled upon this paragraph: "For explanation purposes, let's assume the percentage of this is 20%. You are hit by an Upsmash whose knockback value at your current percentage is 100. For simplicity's sake, the trajectory of this attack is 90 degrees, straight upward. You are holding down, which grants you a vector downwards of 20 (units per frame, I'm just going to use numbers from now on)."

Basically, vectoring is you altering the amount of knockback you receive based on the percentage of damage you were at, and the power of the move used against you. The knockback of the power of a move is, of course, determined by your weight, the damage percentage you have, and how stale that move is beforehand. Vectoring properly against horizontal attacks is very similar to how one would DI them in previous smash games, but vectoring properly against vertical attacks is completely different.

This new replacement of directional influence will definitely benefit vertical heavy hitters more, and more so for moves that hit VERY hard vertically (say Ganon's Aerial Wizkick KOing Robin at 90% off the ground). Vectoring is less helpful when you are at lower percentages, and more helpful when you are at higher percentages. Characters find it tougher and tougher to kill as percentages go up.

Hopefully you're all following along. I'm sure you've seen many replays of the game, and you've noticed that sometimes the players have a very hard time KOing each other despite the very high percentages. This is, as stated above, because of vectoring & coupled with the stale factor of a move.

Simply put, If a decent vertical knockback move should KO your opponent at 130%, your opponent can vector his or her way to saving him or herself much more efficiently than he or she can from a much harder hitting vertical knockback move that should KO at 90%.

KOs will be much more early out of just the sheer knockback power of some heavy hitting moves and we'll see vectoring of many KOing moves, that don't hit as hard, at very high percentages.

Note, all that I mentioned above is when and if you vector 'DOWN' not 'UP'.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

About Ganon. I think he has improved a lot and will be above a few characters away from the bottom. He will most likely end up lowest mid-tier OR higher. I can assure you that he will not be last. It is way too soon to make any assumptions.

The fact that his weight has increased along with his speed is very significant. Why? In Brawl he had trouble for a good OOS option, the opposing players would play around your shield and force Ganon to constantly reset his position away from his main attack zone, and along with that he would get comboed easily and put off stage very early. In Smash 4 the fact that off stage as a whole has changed may actually give Ganon advantages over some characters. His new jab speed, and his weight and speed increases will make him more formidable on-stage, as now he'll be able to stay there longer and force people away from his shield more often unlike Brawl. I've also noticed that his Jab puts his opponents in positions where they are more vulnerable than they are safe, this is because jab now has a FTilt-like fixed pushback knocking the opponents downwards. Ganon can still kill quite early in most situations, but in some situations he will not kill as early as he would have in Brawl (but that may actually be worth the trade for the benefits Ganon has gotten).

His dash attack, though weaker, is faster and has a new 'down below' hitbox. - This means that characters with good edge games (Villager) will not be able to take as much advantage as Ganon can swoop them right off the ledge - thus forcing a good player to be on stage more. Ganon can also force people to land fast, because of a few quick aerials, and then take advantage with IASA frames on ground too.

Your opponent will most likely be hitting you more often than you hit them but that doesn't matter, Ganon only has to land a few good hits to get a kill, and he can do so much more reliably than he can in Brawl. His game style will be similar to Brawl, but with much easier initiation and much bigger rewards. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and then kill.

I don't see Ganondorf being last, not at all. He has improved and will definitely be better than at least a dozen characters.

Ganon has possibly the best surprise gimp game. He can gimp with tipman (tip of his UAir and the hitbox close to the tip, there are two for those who don't know). He can do this so fast and out of nowhere that your opponent won't except it. His UAir is even better this game, it is very strong and comes out faster. It can be combed into from a dash attack due to long hitstun. NAir is also a gimp move now, both or any one of the two hits. Using it out of wizard foot is surprisingly useful now.

FAir is a wonderful move. It is useful this game. It still has the brawl method use, where you would jump below or in front your opponent and wait for them to drop their shield. It can combo into itself on mid-high percentage. It is surprisingly fast, safe on many shields, and doesn't have as much lag as it did in Brawl.

Also, something I've noticed about the two moves are, when you're in the air, say in front of your opponent, two of the things your opponent can do is try attacking you or try spacing away or with an attack. UAir and FAir mixup can punish both those options. UAir will hit them before they hit you, and FAir will get them if they try spacing away.

WDK and Flame Choke are huge game changers for Ganon. This changes his whole style as a character. Couple these moves with a now useful neutral B and a killer Up + B. Warlock Sword - this move has massive range, kill potential, and super armour. Reverse kills much faster than the normal position. This itself is huge for Ganon mains because this gives us an extra option, Brawl dorfs would never use Warlock Punch unless if it's for punishing shields or recovery. Dark fists is going to be more of a surprise kill move now, super armour on the first hit and then a killer uppercut, it also travels more upwards than Dark Dive.

Most of Ganon's hits do as much damage as many characters can achieve with 3 to even 4 hits. Each hit you get with Ganon feels like a combo, and the fact that the above custom moves give him more viable options for things he couldn't normally do makes him even deadlier.

I think even without custom moves Ganon would be pretty viable. But with custom moves he is definitely more viable.

Ganondorf has improved greatly. He has some very great pros, but also a few horrible cons.

Pros:
- He has more reliable ways to get KOs now
- He lives longer not just because of the new edge mechanics, but he is generally heavier.
- He feels more like Brawl Donkey Kong with heavy weight and early surprise kills.
- BAir resets his stance in the air to facing forward relatively well and quick, much like Marth's FAir in Brawl
- FTilt resets his spacing in the ground relatively fast and quick, and can actually give him situational advantages over the opponent
- His damage input is much higher per move, most of his moves can equal up to 2-3 opponent's moves
- His FTilt can automatically put some characters in positions in which they will not recover
- Wizard Kick is relatively quicker and does not get punished on lower percentages like it would in Brawl. It can also be used to punish rolls.
- You can control whether you want to Ganoncide or not if you grab your opponent on the ledge, and Ganoncide will always result in your victory now
- Has a wide variety of moves, all but a few kill. (B-Throw grab is the only kill potential grab)
- Can DACUS 1/3rd of FD now
- NAir comes out quicker and can surprise opponents and help get out of combos
- Aerial Wizkick can kill quite early
- Good against characters who can not apply heavy safe shield pressure (For example Lucario has a harder time shield pressuring as compared to Yoshi's amazing shield pressure)

That said, he has a few very horrible cons and these cons can be taken advantage of quite easily.

Cons:
- Very vulnerable to good projectile camping tools
- Shielding at spot and guessing what Ganon will do - you do not need to approach him, but at times he can force you to approach
- Horrible at face length as he has no quick out of shield option, quick jabbers and grabbers can attack him before his he time to react
- Gimpable recovery - if he is put off stage by a throw or a move, he can have a hard time recovering
- Combo easy, probably one of the easiest characters to combo at lower
percentages due to heavy build.

Ganon is the third slowest character in this game, a bump up from second slowest in Brawl (above only Jigglypuff, who would spend most of her time in the air anyway). The two slower ground speed characters this game are Jigglypuff and Robin.

His fastest walk speed is the second slowest, above just Jigglypuff.

Scenarios in which Wizard Foot is better than Wizard Drop Kick:

Wizard Foot:

In the air: Provides a safezone below, this coupled with the massive killing power it has benefits Ganon greatly. If you had WDK in this position (in the air), you would simply have the option to retreat behind the opponent - and that can get predictable. Your opponent may be able to bait that out, and knows that he can play under you more often.

On the ground during early percentages: Coupled with flame choke, can limit the what your opponent can do. Your can't simply stand in shield or roll away unpunished. WDK is less effective in this situation because, not only can it get you punished during early percentages, but it can only really punish rolls if they are at a particular distance, while Wizard Foot can punish rolls near normal flame choke distance (much closer to Ganon).

On the ground: Can get you some very good follow up with cancels, or with the jump you get off air. WDK can get cancelled as well, but requires precise position, the two directions of the stages every time. Wizard Foot can hit, and still get a cancel - which is the bulk of Ganon's combo game.

Momentum stoppage: The existence of the stoppage of Ganon's momentum in the air helps Ganon. Although good players shouldn't be getting hit, just being able to stop Ganon's momentum with knockback below you limits what the opponent can do.

This is just a few examples of why Wizard Foot may be better in many scenarios. I can actually go on about particular match-ups, and more examples.

After having tested his moves out quite a lot, my opinion on what his best custom moves are have changed. Though, remember, all of his custom moves have unique uses and each one may all be very useful for different match-ups, and even be switched around during the same match-ups if your opponent switches. The custom move which I find to be the worst is Wizard's Assault, in the air it has a straight downward hit which always spikes (seems good when used right at the ledge), but the move is just too slow and predictable both on the ground and in the air.

Forward B: Flame Wave is an underestimated move. I didn't think this before, but the move KOS. Yes, it KOS very early. The move starts up like a flame choke, but goes a smaller distance and has a bigger start-up time and more overall lag. It does 8% more damage than a normal flamechoke on the ground, and 5% more damage than an aerial flamechoke. I believe that in the competitive scene, Ganon's forward B customs will be the most interchangeable. All 3 of them have very good and useful uses.

Upwards B: Dark Fists seems to be the best here, but before I go into it, I want to mention that Dark Vault (two grabs special) seems kinda very good, but also kinda mehish. I say this because, it gives Ganon another command grab along with his others, and has the ability to grab twice, it also goes higher in distance, which can help Ganon in those positions which he'll usually not be able to recover back. Though the bad factor about the grab seem to out weigh the good. No uppercut, only 4% damage per grab (for Ganon standard, that's horrible), though the grab potential on stages with platforms is amazing the RCO lag and normal lag on stage if used is horrible. Now to Dark Fists. Dark Fists is amazing, it's a move that can scare the opponent into not messing with Ganon off stage, and it has the ability to setup kills even by taking a hit on stage! If you keep the normal wizard kick, flame wave, and warlock sword/punch along with this move, then nearly every move in Ganon's arsenal can kill.

Neutral B: Warlock Thrust. Yes. Warlock Thrust is probably his option. Warlock Thrust is probably the closest move to a projectile Ganon has. Underestimated, and in a quite decently fast paced game like Smash 4, you need faster moves. Warlock Thrust is like a very laggy flame-thrower, or more like a flame burst, but with darkness. It hits not only a good amount of range in front of you, it can hit opponents on platforms. Even then, I'd prefer this on stages with no platforms because of the disjointed 'projectile-like' range it has. The move won't ever kill though, it is good to use in unique situations (usually when your opponent is on a platform). This move can hit your opponent standing on the highest platform in Battlefield if you're standing on one of the two lower ones. The move has a different number of hitboxes, but all of which cancels if any other one hits. Damage ranges from 21% - 9% (reverse included). Warlock Sword is still not out of the box here, but I don't think a good player should get hit by that move at higher levels of play.

Downwards B: Wizard Kick default. I prefer this, and I also believe this to be Ganon's best down special. Wizard Drop Kick is amazing, don't get me wrong, and especially now when people don't know what to expect, but as the metagame develops the move will get more and more predictable, and the fact the it erases any early approach or 'fluke' options for Ganon is a horrible nerf for Ganon. I mentioned this elsewhere with a discussion with @Thinkaman, but I'll mention it again, Ganon's default kick also has intense kill power in a downward angle below him in the air, and this is hugely beneficial for a character like Ganon in so many ways.

Good stuff. Here you can find the frame data of about every character and of most of their moves.

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Ganon's Jab is 8 frames on startup as we all thought. Dash attack is surprisingly fast at 10 frames at startup. Ftilt 10 frames. Utilt hits on frame 6 but initiates at frame 79. Dtilt is frame 10 startup.

Dsmash is his fastest smash with the same reach horizontally as fsmash at 15 frames start up. Fsmash and Usmash both start up at 21 frames (which is actually pretty fast and safe, considering the power and the push back they give shields). Normally, Dtilt could and should be used at moments when only dsmash could hit the opponent. Dsmash is a good roll teaser though.

I am surprised that uair comes out at the 6th frame, faster than nair's 7th frame. Bair is 10 frames, dair is 16 and fair is 14.

Here is a guide by @ Xinc Xinc

The Shadow Realm stage guide by @Hi-Hatz

The King's Domain stage guide by @_Magus_

Grab Game guide by @_Magus_
 
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A2ZOMG

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My main theory on Ganon right now is a lot of his "hidden" potential lies in edgeguarding. This is a little less risky for Ganon to attempt in this game due to edgehogging being nerfed, and Ganon's aerials are all generally speaking deadly for edgeguards. Even N-air as I recall hits a little harder, making it better for edgeguards than before. Ganon's slightly buffed Jab and F-tilt imo all help in getting your opponent off the stage, where you have the advantage.

Alternatively, if you are in a position to D-throw your opponent next to the edge, they're more likely to DI towards you, which gives you a guaranteed combo into possibly F-air perhaps, which should easily kill.

If you're center stage though, I might consider U-throw on Ganondorf in this game unless you are certain you can pull off a wizkick cancel followup after F-throw, because the same edge mechanics that help Ganon recover also make timing more strict for edgeguarding. Ganondorf still has good juggles, and U-throw as I recall does more damage than D-throw, which is less useful at higher percents when your opponent DIs away from you.

It is also worth noting that in this game, a Ganoncide on the last stock for both of you is Ganondorf's victory. Not something you will pull off every game, but it can be a gamechanging option.
 
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Ryuutakeshi

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I think I get it. People really have to work for KO's in this game. Nice to see Ganondorf getting to take advantage of his power even more.
 

Z1GMA

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This is pretty cool.
I can't see how Meta Knight will ever make someone lose a stock now without gimping them.
And even then, edgehogging is gone.

It is also worth noting that in this game, a Ganoncide on the last stock for both of you is Ganondorf's victory. Not something you will pull off every game, but it can be a gamechanging option.
Ganoncide is gonna cripple ppl to hell and back now when it can't be edgehogged.
 
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Bahamut777

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Thanks for pointing that thread, Ray. I found it fascinating and very useful.

I think this will help us score kills, since Ganon's sheer knockback is pretty high (it seems) and help our survivability to star KOs. Characters like Jiggly, LMac and MKs new Shuttle Loop seem to relly a lot on it.

About Ganon's overall metagame (from what we've seen on current videos). I think we will, indeed, focus a LOT more on out edge game, now that we can't really be in absolute risk while doing it. I didn't look much into other characters possibilities besides Villager and Duck Hunt (one of them is going to be my second option for sure), so this has to be thought carefully and might even be completely scraped.

Also, we might have to drift a bit from Gerudo tech chasing, since its now techable, if the frame data is not in out favor. Heck, if it's bad, then we might be even forced to Custom Move it to wither the multi hitting one or the knockback one. I'll definitely miss it, if it happens ofc.

We need MOAR DATA!
 

Xinc

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Ganon does have a lot of good options to knock people off stage and KEEP them offstage, which is a very crucial aspect in this meta (more than the others). Wizkick, f tilt, and throws ought to do the job quite well for keeping them off stage. Fair's landing lag seems reduced from Brawl's and seems still as another viable option to punish a mistech or bad DI. Ganon's aerials are godlike at keeping people offstage. He can steal the ledge back and dropdown bair, it looks like. I'm fairly certain his up air is another good option, as well as fair. The stomp seems like a less viable tactic unless you're certain you're opponent won't be able to airdodge at some point. I wonder if the Up B can semi spike, as that's another good option.
 

Vermanubis

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Firstly, I really hope that if vectoring is really as effective as they say, that the standard'll be two stocks. I loved Brawl, but I dunno if I, personally, or the community can handle another game where local tournaments take 12 hours.

That aside, I think it's good news for Ganon, for the most part. His KO potential's easily in the top 3, and he's heavy. So he can can deal decisive blows in spite of this, and have a much harder time dying.

I agree with A2Z to a degree. I think gimps are gonna be a big deal for Ganon. Considering his FTilt is so fast now (dunno who all's seen it used in quick succession in a match, but damn, it has 0 recovery), and his FTilts are probably guaranteed on anyone with a sufficiently fat hurtbox, he'll have a really easy time getting people offstage. More good news is a variety of viable follow-ups after Gerudo all send people in different directions, which would make vectoring harder to execute properly.

On the side, I think the new ledge mechanics are gonna make WKC even more effective. And like Zig said, Ganon's side-b's ever scarier offstage than before.
 
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Sykkamorre

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Christ, it's like Sakurai went "Let's hide all the Ganondorf buffs inside the game mechanics! The Ganon-ers will love it!"

Seems like even if you vector against stuff like the ftilt, it'll just place you in perfect position to get intercepted offstage. I can't actually think of anything that would benefit us more than this.
 

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Is gerudo confirmed to be techable on the ground? I haven't seen this.
It is most definitely techable. The only other thing I know absolutely for certain is you can buffer F-smash on inward techroll during grounded Flame Choke for a punish, and that you are at SOME frame advantage when they tech in place (though I would assume for air choke, it might actually be unsafe on hit).
 
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Vermanubis

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More news: DAir is techable. That is, grounded opponents can tech it, presumably thanks to the bounce mechanic.
 
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A2ZOMG

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@ Vermanubis Vermanubis Makes me wish that meteors specifically were untechable in general ESPECIALLY since they fixed Jab locks already to not be infinite. Untechable meteors would make the game feel less bull**** and make certain reads feel a lot better. And of course, it would fix Ganon's Flame Choke.

The ground bounce mechanic is thematically really cool. But JESUS, it's nearly pointless competitively. I mean to be real, most of the meteors in this game are actually pretty tricky to land (Falco's D-air even got nerfed this game). They should be consistently rewarding outside of edgeguards.
 
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jahkzheng

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Oh good. Just now noticed this thread. My "dair questionnaire" can be moved here I suppose. I look forward to seeing what can be discovered.

Oh, and if vectoring is worth a mention here, I think the new info regarding "rage effect" should be added. It actually has a lot to do with the implementation of vectoring. If you've not heard yet, apparently "rage effect" is basically a new game mechanic where your moves have higher knockback the higher your damage. So if say Ganon uses his uncharged upsmash on a character with 0%, he will launch them higher if his percent is higher. The same move on the same enemy with the same damage could be an almost kill if you're at 50%, but a kill if you're at 150%. I think this could favor Ganon pretty well. He has the tools to kill at low percents keeping his enemies from utilizing their knockback buff from "rage effect" at high percents. While at the same time, his great weight will allow him to survive into higher percents better, for the most part, and give him a chance to punish even harder with his already devastating attacks. I think it stops effecting knockback around 150 though. I'll link a vid explaining better... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZPxLLaL4N8
 

A2ZOMG

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Conveniently enough, it's easier for Ganon to survive to 150%+ these days due to anti-edgehogging mechanics. So rage mechanics do definitely benefit his comeback potential.
 

jahkzheng

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I do wonder though how much vectoring at high percents and rage effect counteract each other and vise versa. If both opponents are at 150%, how much does the boost from rage effect get counteracted by the DI of vectoring? Obviously, less so then if the opponent doing the hitting had 0% damage.

There's going to be a lot of numbers to crunch associated with kill moves and such is all I know. Just making your damage relevant to the knockback you have on your moves adds so many variables now. A single kill move will now have a low end for KO consisting of a non-stale attack from a character with 150% damage on a light character DI'ing with their trajectory, and a high end for KO consisting of a stale attack from a character with 0% damage on a heavy character DI'ing against their trajectory. And then there's all the situations in between including all kinds of damage combinations. Seems like too much, imo. I'll just go by common sense and remember that most real attacks kill soon enough, heh


Edit: Oh... and I guess, if I recall correctly, staleness just effects damage and not knockback necessarily, so I guess it wouldn't factor much in all this.

Speaking of "staleness", I should've mentioned that rage effect doesn't change your damage output at all, just the knockback. If it effected knockback AND damage, it would be one "larger hitbox" effect away from Lucario's aura.
 
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Biinii

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I've been testing Ganon's IASA frames on his skid animation and it is looking good, you can cancel it very soon. It opens up a lot more ground options.
 

Vermanubis

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I dunno what's been posted so far, so forgive me if I'm delivering old news. I wasn't able to test as much as I'dve liked, since the other person with the Japanese 3DS had to leave early, so we couldn't finish everything.

-Zerxion (a player from Washington) found an AT. You can cancel full-hop FAirs with specials. E.g. FH FAir > Gerudo = lagless.
-I toyed with custom moves a bit and custom skills. Custom skills give Ganon his AC DAir and other things.
-Ganon can no longer perform two aerials after a FH NAir/DAir. You'll hit the ground before their cool-down ends. With the exception of custom skills, in which case it's entirely possible.
-IDA is still a follow-up and kills fresh around 120%
-FTilt is amazing.
-Wizkick cancel is still in.
-Warlock punch has full superarmor. Actually has uses outside of shieldbreaks now.
-Shields break super easily, so aerial wizkick + quake take up around 1/2 shield.
-DTilt doesn't hit everybody after Gerudo (Captain Falcon, for instance) (though I could be wrong, and the timing could just be tighter)
-Pretty sure Ganon's neutral after an Aerudo. Plus Aerudo puts people in awkward spots really close to Ganon, making them hard to hit.
-DAir is punishable on hit at very low percents (assuming custom skills aren't allowed and he can't AC)
-DAir can be teched on the ground because of the new bounce mechanics.
-Aerial wizkick when sweetspotted (when it spikes people down) can kill because it'll bounce people off the stage and into a star KO.
-Same with DAir against aerial opponents.
-Ganoncide is ALWAYS in Ganon's favor.

I'll post more as I remember it. To be honest, if custom skills are allowed, Ganon will be better than he was in Brawl. If not, he'll probably be the same, if not worse strictly in terms of base tools. But he may be better in either case thanks to changes in the game itself. I'm hoping that one of two things'll happene in this regard:

-That an optimal moveset is agreed upon and each character is allowed a certain skillset arrangement as a tournament standard
-That custom skills can be integrated into the counterpick system (as far as I know, this is Seibrik's idea)
 
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Daeyrat

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What is the optimal moveset for you people in case this happens?
I didn't get a chance to play yet, but by analysis, for 1x1 I thought of:
1 - Warlock Sword. Big range useful. Super armor still present to eat some attacks and counterattack.
2 - Short Flame Choke. Personally, launching them upwards seems to me a way to put Ganon in a better position. Plus... there's KO potential. Hitting them with KO attacks may be troublesome in some matchups. This helps a bit.
3 - Powerful Wizard Foot - The one with startup. The range is too good. Reaching far enemies gives him versatility, which he needs. It may be slow, but I can use the shoulder tackle for speed.
4 - Power (punch only) Up B/Regular Up B - I don't know yet. Regular seems to reach higher, but the KO potential and hit advantage of the custom punch seems like another good option to finish the enemy. I guess this choice depends more on stage/character matchups.
 

Lozjam

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What is the optimal moveset for you people in case this happens?
I didn't get a chance to play yet, but by analysis, for 1x1 I thought of:
1 - Warlock Sword. Big range useful. Super armor still present to eat some attacks and counterattack.
2 - Short Flame Choke. Personally, launching them upwards seems to me a way to put Ganon in a better position. Plus... there's KO potential. Hitting them with KO attacks may be troublesome in some matchups. This helps a bit.
3 - Powerful Wizard Foot - The one with startup. The range is too good. Reaching far enemies gives him versatility, which he needs. It may be slow, but I can use the shoulder tackle for speed.
4 - Power (punch only) Up B/Regular Up B - I don't know yet. Regular seems to reach higher, but the KO potential and hit advantage of the custom punch seems like another good option to finish the enemy. I guess this choice depends more on stage/character matchups.
Also might I add that the flame choke can teched, making the short flame choke a lot better because it can't be teched
 

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The short flame choke does not become better just because it launches the opponent away and can't be teched.

It is pretty good though. And even better for lower level of gameplay. 18% is a lot of damage.

With that said, grounded flame choke will always be better, but more at higher levels of gameplay. You should be able to deal with tech, and landing a follow up of any kind afterwards will always do more damage and lead to possibly even more follow ups, which is a benefit to have as the game plays on as compared to the short flame choke.
 
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Sykkamorre

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The short flame choke does not become better just because it launches the opponent away and can't be teched.

It is pretty good though. And even better for lower level of gameplay. 18% is a lot of damage.

With that said, grounded flame choke will always be better, but more at higher levels of gameplay. You should be able to deal with tech, and landing a follow up of any kind afterwards will always do more damage and lead to possibly even more follow ups, which is a benefit to have as the game plays on as compared to the short flame choke.
This.

ChainChoking is still one of the most demoralising things to happen to someone. It makes people flustered and a flustered enemy is more liable to make mistakes that we can take advantage of. One mistake can cost the opponent a hearty chunk of damage, or set them up for a kill move.
 

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Copied this post from the Video & User thread:
Ray_Kalm said:
"If I'm not mistaken, Ganon has the strongest BAir in the game (now), and it also comes out very fast. If this is true, the new edgehogging to BAir follow up and the mechanics of the new edge hogging in general is going to benefit Ganon a lot. Meaning, he can possibly be the best "edgehogger" in the game.

This is great news." @ A2ZOMG A2ZOMG @ Z1GMA Z1GMA
See it in action against the Palutena in this video.

This truly is great news.
 
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Lozjam

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Copied this post from the Video & User thread:


See it in action against the Palutena in this video.

This truly is great news.
This really is. Also, might I add that Ganondorf won't be edgeguarded so easily. A simple side b with take out your opponents stock. Whether it is variation 1 or 2, the outcome is the same.
 

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Copied this post from the Video & User thread:


See it in action against the Palutena in this video.

This truly is great news.
Killed Palutena, a mid-lightweight, from the ledge at 77% while Dorf was at 60%, meaning that he got a very mild rage boost. Vectoring may or may not have been present. So he kills lightweights at around 80% from the ledge with a fresh Bair consistently, maybe 85% with optimal vectoring. Not too shabby.
 

Chauzu

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Ganondorf certainly is the king of edgeguarding, wonderful!

This just further cements him as one of my mains.

Edit: I've been training the ledge steal now and for a competetive smash beginner like me it took a time to get a hang off so here are some points that helped me:

- run and change direction to the ledge THE MOMENT Ganondorf starts leaning forward to jump off
- easiest set up is rolling up to the ledge and just tilting the stick a bit jumping down
- when on ledge spam both the stick and jump, the timing is very precise otherwise
 
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Z1GMA

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I like the blue Speed Kick Version of down+b.
It should hit more often due to its speed, which helps Ganon refresh his killmoves slightly better than the other two does.
It looks like it should be able to go over some projectiles, and speed in general in a good complement for Ganon.
 

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Primer TMT

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Ganondorf so...has the same weight, it's faster but Dair, Fair, Dash are weakest now, Stronger Bair, Dtilt, Ftilt. Uptilt, flame choke..really he's are better or not?My answer..YES!
 

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Ganondorf is mostly just better because there's no edgehogging in this game making him survive longer and risk less when edgeguarding. That and his Jab being slightly faster lets him play neutral game very slightly more easily in more matchups.

Though he's likely still the worst character overall, but I'm inclined to believe there's a chance he's competitively viable, just since his overall matchup spread probably has way fewer, if any true hard counters.
 

Primer TMT

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I was analyzing Ganondorf Dair..(Im mexican) so i can have a lot of mistakes writing xdWell i was analyzing Dair and..i think it's possible to cancel his Dair and chain to another one, simply a short hop and the second jump at the same time(second jump it's so small so i think with the short hop and the second jump together its a little more than a normal jump, and the Dair it's a bit longer) like snake neutral air to have no landing lag...imagine it..i think probably im right :3
 
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Ray_Kalm

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Ganondorf is mostly just better because there's no edgehogging in this game making him survive longer and risk less when edgeguarding. That and his Jab being slightly faster lets him play neutral game very slightly more easily in more matchups.

Though he's likely still the worst character overall, but I'm inclined to believe there's a chance he's competitively viable, just since his overall matchup spread probably has way fewer, if any true hard counters.
I think he has improved a lot and will be above a few characters away from the bottom. He will most likely end up lowest mid-tier OR higher. I can assure you that he will not be last. It is way too soon to make any assumptions, but Samus and Ike are candidates for last position.

The fact that his weight has increased along with his speed is very significant. Why? In Brawl he had trouble for a good OOS option, the opposing players would play around your shield and force Ganon to constantly reset his position away from his main attack zone, and along with that he would get comboed easily and put off stage very early. In Smash 4 the fact that off stage as a whole has changed may actually give Ganon advantages over some characters. His new jab speed, and his weight and speed increases will make him more formidable on-stage, as now he'll be able to stay there longer and force people away from his shield more often unlike Brawl. I've also noticed that his Jab puts his opponents in positions where they are more vulnerable than they are safe, this is because jab now has a FTilt-like fixed pushback knocking the opponents downwards. Ganon can still kill quite early in most situations, but in some situations he will not kill as early as he would have in Brawl (but that may actually be worth the trade for the benefits Ganon has gotten).

His dash attack, though weaker, is faster and has a new 'down below' hitbox. - This means that characters with good edge games (Villager) will not be able to take as much advantage as Ganon can swoop them right off the ledge - thus forcing a good player to be on stage more. Ganon can also force people to land fast, because of a few quick aerials, and then take advantage with IASA frames on ground too.

Your opponent will most likely be hitting you more often than you hit them but that doesn't matter, Ganon only has to land a few good hits to get a kill, and he can do so much more reliably than he can in Brawl. His game style will be similar to Brawl, but with much easier initiation and much bigger rewards. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and then kill.

I don't see Ganondorf being last, not at all. He has improved and will definitely be better than at least a dozen characters.
 
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A2ZOMG

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The problem I have with Ganon right now though, is I still don't see a lot of good options against spotdodge. If they spotdodge really early and you didn't commit to anything, yeah, you can punish with Wizkick or Choke. But both moves are still relatively slow, so when the opponent doesn't commit, they can defend against those easily.

Ganon's Jab, while faster, also is still noticeably unsafe on spotdodge, so you can't really use it for offensive pressure. Add that Ganon's grab range is still definitely below average and that we can't autocancel D-air in this game, it's still an uphill battle against any defensive playstyles. No other character really has this problem when it comes to picking moves that are able to pressure spotdodges, which is why I don't think Ganon is likely to have any technically favorable matchups.

Who knows, I do think he might be viable simply because he survives longer and everyone else in this game overall got worse at killing or cheesing at low percents. I probably won't attend in person tournaments, so go and impress me and prove to me that I'm right. Or rather, surprise me and prove me that Ganon's results are too strong for him to be the worst character overall.

Random thing: The vast majority of the footage I've seen of Ganon against Little Mac (who so far seems to be strong competitively) has Ganon winning those games pretty convincingly. It's almost certainly matchup inexperience, but it's pretty funny to watch Mac getting easily gimped by Ganon.
 
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Ray_Kalm

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The problem I have with Ganon right now though, is I still don't see a lot of good options against spotdodge. If they spotdodge really early and you didn't commit to anything, yeah, you can punish with Wizkick or Choke. But both moves are still relatively slow, so when the opponent doesn't commit, they can defend against those easily.

Ganon's Jab, while faster, also is still noticeably unsafe on spotdodge. Add that Ganon's grab range is still definitely below average, it's still an uphill battle against any defensive playstyles. No other character really has this problem, which is why I don't think Ganon is likely to have any technically favorable matchups.

Who knows, I do think he might be viable. I probably won't attend in person tournaments, so go and impress me and prove to me that I'm right. Or rather, surprise me and prove me that Ganon's results are too strong for him to be the worst character overall.
We'd be able to determine who ends up as the worst character overall in a definite amount of time.

Spotdodge gives a lot of characters troubles, and like it was in Brawl, it was best for Ganon to predict a spotdodge rather than commit to something. Flame choke was a good answer for predicting a spotdodge, but sometimes even punishing them.

The only problem I see with a good out of shield option are against small grounded characters, or characters with moves who can really shrink themselves. Sheik or Kirby for example. Jab and grab never hit/grabbed them in Brawl, and that same function exists in Smash 4. But Jab and grab are definitely much more reliable options now against everything else, and it can even punish most of Jigglypuff's airbone moves, which was something that was nearly impossible in Brawl.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Oh...Kirby.

****, almost forgot he existed. He still ducks under grab? I'll be sad if that's true.
 
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Daeyrat

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I don't think being top or bottom means something. The discussion is not quite right. There'll be always a top and bottom.
What's important is his matchups being around 5x5. As long as he gets lots of 5x5, a bit of 6x4 or few 4x6, it's fine.
 

A2ZOMG

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I want to say Ganon's matchups right now are likely half 45/55s and half 4/6s. Maybe up to five 5/5s. Not yet sold he beats anyone.

Sheik MIGHT be a 35/65 though because the character by design is just insanely stupid for Ganon to deal with. She's harder to edgeguard than Ganon would like, Needles are Needles, and her pressure game is really hard to react to. Fortunately, she is though relatively easy to juggle.
 
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