Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Daeyrat]

flame chain collides with projectiles and travels quite far. I guess it depends on the matchup...

 

[Thinkaman]

Between higher shield damage (which heavily favors high-damage moves) and down-b 2, as Ganon I am not terrified by shields anymore. Flame Chain is a better spot-dodge eater, and is a stronger recovery option.

It also clashes, which is good since Flame Choke would just lose in all of those cases, including projectiles.

And of course, the reward is better in high-level play, since they can't tech it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And of course, the reward is better in high-level play, since they can't tech it.

Sorta debatable. You can F-smash inward techrolls, and I'm pretty certain you can DACUS outwards ones, though I wouldn't be able to test this. Ganon's trap potential from Flame Choke still is scary.

 

[Opana]

I guess Choke just suits me more, that and I haven't spent extensive time with Chain.

I just love tech chases lol

 

[HeavyLobster]

I guess Choke just suits me more, that and I haven't spent extensive time with Chain.

I just love tech chases lol

The thing is you actually still get quite a few tech chases off of Chain because of the horizontal trajectory it sends opponents. Dropkick and Ftilt can set them up as well sometimes, so I wouldn't worry too much about Ganon getting tech chases. Chain is also good at following tech chases as well. I still feel like choke is important in certain matchups like Little Mac and Bowser(At low %s, Bowser's Tough Guy ability keeps him from being carried through the entire attack, and he'll just stay where he is as if he's in shield, though he still takes damage and can't hit you while he's getting hit. If you hit him late in the attack, he'll take the strong final hit and get knocked away, but if you hit him early you'll go through him and he can punish you on hit.) but Chain will likely be needed in others.
Edit: Apparently Flame Chain goes through Bowser at all %s, so I guess it isn't Tough Guy at work here. This didn't happen with any of the other heavyweights, though, including Shield Stance Shulk, so I don't know what's going on here. Either way, Choke looks like the better choice in that particular matchup.

 

[Opana]

I'm going to make a compilation of tech chases I've pulled off with choke, mainly just for the wow factor but also to show ther potential.

How much damage does chain do?

 

[HeavyLobster]

To add to my previous post on Warlock Blade edgeguarding, I've actually been able to WB offstage and make it back from the side platform of Battlefield with Dark Fists, and even been able to FH WB offstage from the floor of Battlefield and make it back with Dark Vault.(The timing on both can be a bit strict, but it's not impossible) This really opens up the possibilities for this move, as being able to throw out a huge powerful hitbox like this with armor while under the stage is pretty scary, and it can be done on all stages if you opt for Dark Vault as a recovery.

 

[Big O]

Personally, I like going 3122 (shotgun punch, flame choke, murder fist, wiz dropkick).

I know many of you advocate the sword over the shotgun punch, but the way I see it all the sword adds is range (which is very nice, don't get me wrong).

The shotgun punch is still kinda slow and loses the super armor, but it has a very nice and fat hitbox you can poke with. To give you an idea on how fat the hitbox is, it is fat enough to hit people on BF platforms from below and people dangling on the edge at the same time.

While it is laggy enough to not be THAT great, I feel this adds a new kind of tool in his arsenal that merits some exploration. If you could stutter-step Fsmash like in Brawl, I would switch to the sword without much hesitation though.

Even though you can now tech flame choke, I feel flame chain isn't that much better outside of certain matchups. The extra distance is not worth being able to block it and giving up ganoncides imo. Sometimes they pop out of it before the last hit too.

What I like about flame chain is that aerial flame chains go through most clankable projectiles much like Brawl MK's tornado. My guess would be it goes through any clankable projectile that does less than 11% damage.

I haven't put in the time to test the threshold, but based on what I know about priority that's a good estimate. I've gone through super missles, fireballs, and megaman's lemons/metal blade for reference.

Murder fist seems like his regular up b 2.0. He gives up the silly grab for super armor frames and a kill move OoS. The extra recovery from dark vault might be better in some matchups though.

Wiz dropkick needs no explanation. Pretty easy choice.

 

[Z1GMA]

Quick Pro Tip:
How to iDA on 3DS w/o C-stiking:
Dash, let go of the stick, press attack. You can start a DA at frame 2 if you're fast enough.
Power Shield > iDA is back, brothers.

@ Big O , you gave us Ganon Frame Data during Brawl, right? Can you get us Ganon Frame Data for smash 4?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Personally, I like going 3122 (shotgun punch, flame choke, murder fist, wiz dropkick).

I know many of you advocate the sword over the shotgun punch, but the way I see it all the sword adds is range (which is very nice, don't get me wrong).

The shotgun punch is still kinda slow and loses the super armor, but it has a very nice and fat hitbox you can poke with. To give you an idea on how fat the hitbox is, it is fat enough to hit people on BF platforms from below and people dangling on the edge at the same time.

While it is laggy enough to not be THAT great, I feel this adds a new kind of tool in his arsenal that merits some exploration. If you could stutter-step Fsmash like in Brawl, I would switch to the sword without much hesitation though.

The main issue I have with Shotgun Punch is that it has no kill power behind it, even when sweetspotted. You have to reverse it to kill anything at all(even then it's situational and at higher %s), and even then stuff like Uair and aerial Dropkick kill sooner. Yes the hitbox is nice and big, and the startup is workable, but it still has horrendous lag, and isn't really rewarding when it does hit. It is true that you can jump offstage with it and make it back without having to opt for Dark Vault over Dark Fists(you can't with Warlock Blade) and throw out a big, disruptive hitbox offstage, but Uair does this as well, and has much less startup and endlag so you can actually follow up on it and finish your opponent off. I just don't see any situation in which I'd actually want to use Shotgun Punch over any of Ganon's other moves, while Warlock Blade definitely has uses even if they are situational. If you still feel Shotgun Punch is worth using I encourage you to explore its meta to your heart's content, and maybe you can find a use for it, but I personally just don't see the point of it.

 

[Daeyrat]

if shotgun had armor at least...
Best B move is still the sword for me

 

[Opana]

I use the sword because of the aesthetics I won't lie lol.

 

[Xinc]

Hey, everyone. I wrote up a Ganondorf guide: http://smashboards.com/guides/reviving-the-king-of-evil.48/
I wouldn't mind a bit of help and critique. I've been seeing success with Ganondorf since I picked up the game on release date.

I've to update it with more of the ATs that I've noticed, but one I've done but haven't seen written is what I dub "less lethal Ganoncide." For PM players, it's what Vex does a lot, using aerial flame choke right off the stage. Because Ganon's still on the platform, he will fall onto the stage, but the opponent would find himself spiked offstage.

Thoughts?

 

[A2ZOMG]

A video of the Ganoncide technique to explain the positioning would be helpful.

 

[Big O]

@Z1GMA Yeah I did provide frame data for Ganon in Brawl. Basically to make a long story short, while I would like to get the frame data, the method I used to get it is something I wouldn't bother trying until I get the WiiU version.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@Z1GMA Yeah I did provide frame data for Ganon in Brawl. Basically to make a long story short, while I would like to get the frame data, the method I used to get it is something I wouldn't bother trying until I get the WiiU version.

I'm guessing that the method you used is most likely recording based especially since you were able to acquire frame data before hacking really became a thing for Brawl. Definitely would be harder to do accurately on a 3DS.

 

[Shogger]

So apparently yesterday Nintendo released a patch containing balance updates. Do we know if Ganondorf has been affected? Anyone want to test replays to see if they desync?

 

[HeavyLobster]

So apparently yesterday Nintendo released a patch containing balance updates. Do we know if Ganondorf has been affected? Anyone want to test replays to see if they desync?

My replays work fine. Ganondorf's moves seem to be the same in terms of damage output and I haven't noticed any changes.

 

[SaltyKracka]

No balance changes here. They simply hid the ongoing Conquest stats in a desperate attempt to stop people from bandwagoning.

 

[Daeyrat]

Super Armor Frames

I never found info about ganon s super armor frames, so i made some tests to figure them out,
First... Super armor frames are absolute. % is not factored. You can resist from 0 to 999. Ganon s armored attacks are Neutral B 1, Neutral B 2, Side Special 1, Side Special 2, Up Special 2.

Side b variations gave armor during the choke and explosion frames only.
Up b custom variation has super armor during its preparation frames if ganon performa the move while on the grouns.
Warlock variations s armored frames start a little after the first startup frames and end when he stretches his arm. Ganon doesn t get any armor if he starts the move while airborne or he changes directions. Only works for grounded front attack.

 

[Daeyrat]

I tried to resist a bob omb at 999 and it worked

 

[HeavyLobster]

Super Armor Frames

I never found info about ganon s super armor frames, so i made some tests to figure them out,
First... Super armor frames are absolute. % is not factored. You can resist from 0 to 999. Ganon s armored attacks are Neutral B 1, Neutral B 2, Side Special 1, Side Special 2, Up Special 2.

Side b variations gave armor during the choke and explosion frames only.
Up b custom variation has super armor during its preparation frames if ganon performa the move while on the grouns.
Warlock variations s armored frames start a little after the first startup frames and end when he stretches his arm. Ganon doesn t get any armor if he starts the move while airborne or he changes directions. Only works for grounded front attack.

I would add that aerial Dark Fists also has armor. I've tanked a Hard Knuckle with it before, and been able to confirm it in Training Mode. When testing it with a Bob-Omb you have to be careful that it walks into you during the armor frames, because if you hit it first it'll blow up because there's no armor on the attacking frames.

 

[Lozjam]

So apparently yesterday Nintendo released a patch containing balance updates. Do we know if Ganondorf has been affected? Anyone want to test replays to see if they desync?

Hmmmmm. Did any characters that are terrible for Ganondorf get nerfed? Such as Shiek? Also, did they fix Yoshi and Wario's glitches?

 

[Daeyrat]

I would add that aerial Dark Fists also has armor. I've tanked a Hard Knuckle with it before, and been able to confirm it in Training Mode. When testing it with a Bob-Omb you have to be careful that it walks into you during the armor frames, because if you hit it first it'll blow up because there's no armor on the attacking frames.

I simply threw the bomb upwards and timed the warlock

 

[Thinkaman]

Patch 1.0.3 is not a balance patch. (It is primarily for adding the ability to share screenshots)

It has been confirmed that no character files are changed at all.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Patch 1.0.3 is not a balance patch. (It is primarily for adding the ability to share screenshots)

It has been confirmed that no character files are changed at all.

Good to get that cleared up. People have been claiming to see pretty much every kind of change to the game in this update short of wavedashing and l-cancelling.

 

[Lilfut]

Huh, could have sworn Ganon was weaker. Guess it's just my expectations ****ing with me.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I haven't seen one of these and I felt it could be useful to know which characters SH AC Bair can hit on the ground, considering how it's probably Ganon's best aerial approach option, so I decided to do some research and make a list.

Spoiler: Characters hit by Bair

Mario No
Luigi No
Peach Yes
Bowser Yes
Yoshi Yes
Rosalina Yes
Bowser Jr. Yes
Wario No
Game & Watch No
DK Yes
Diddy No
Link Yes
Zelda Yes
Sheik Yes
Ganondorf Yes
Toon Link No
Samus Yes
ZSS Yes
Pit Yes
Palutena Yes
Marth Yes
Ike Yes
Robin Yes
Kirby No
DDD Yes
Meta Knight No
Little Mac Yes
Fox No
Falco Yes
Pikachu No
Charizard Surprisingly No (At one part of his idle animation he raises his head and can be hit, but he can't while hunched over)
Lucario No
Jigglypuff No
Greninja No
Duck Hunt No
ROB Yes
Ness No
Falcon Yes
Villager No
Olimar No
Wii Fit No
Dr. Mario No
Dark Pit Yes
Lucina Yes
Shulk Yes
Pac-Man No
Mega Man No
Sonic No
Mii Size Dependent(Don't remember the height/weight of the Miis used for each Mii Fighter, so I'm going to say that the big ones get hit while the small ones don't)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Something VERY very helpful I found, a neat trick that not only helps against projectile users but the whole cast in general (@ Z1GMA you would love this) is a full hop airdodge to > Double Jump > Anything.

This can bait the opponent into using a projectile, and then you can DJ into them with fair/something else, or simply use this to whiff off moves and retreat. Ganon's second jump is really unique in it's animation movement and this can help Ganon loads not just against players with weaker skills, but top level players too.

Edit: I'll upload a video showing you the potential in a bit.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Something VERY very helpful I found, a neat trick that not only helps against projectile users but the whole cast in general (@ Z1GMA you would love this) is a full hop airdodge to > Double Jump > Anything.

This can bait the opponent into using a projectile, and then you can DJ into them with fair/something else, or simply use this to whiff off moves and retreat. Ganon's second jump is really unique in it's animation movement and this can help Ganon loads not just against players with weaker skills, but top level players too.

Edit: I'll upload a video showing you the potential in a bit.

Yeah, airdodges universally have fewer total active frames. I've seen Gungnir take advantage of this in tight situations too, and it's both really helpful for recovering successfully and other things like stalling out enemy invincibility spawn frames.

 

[Z1GMA]

The fact that you can tech Gerudo has made it INCREDIBLY powerful in one way,
as players who rely on trying to tech it gets VERY prectictable when they do miss the tech.
Even top level players miss the tech on occasion.

Let's say you plan on techrolling backwards. You fail, then you'll have to instantly come up with a Back Up Option, which is stressful enough as it is.

First they'll have to mix-up their potential tech (back, neutral, or forward), then they must have an additional mix-up if they fail the tech (back, lie down, rise up, GUA, forward), and this is definitely not an easy task for the opponent in the middle of a Top Battle.

It can often create a confusion in ppl that wouldn't be there if they simply ignored to try and tech it from the beginning.

 

[Big O]

What I really want to know is what kind of frame advantage we have on people who tech, and if that frame advantage varies based on characters. Ideally you should be able to punish every option if you prepare for it, but that might not be possible depending on how the numbers end up.

I wish there was an option to make cpu's always tech or something.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The fact that you can tech Gerudo has made it INCREDIBLY powerful in one way,
as players who rely on trying to tech it gets VERY prectictable when they do miss the tech.
Even top level players miss the tech on occasion.

Let's say you plan on techrolling backwards. You fail, then you'll have to instantly come up with a Back Up Option, which is stressful enough as it is.

First they'll have to mix-up their potential tech (back, neutral, or forward), then they must have an additional mix-up if they fail the tech (back, lie down, rise up, GUA, forward), and this is definitely not an easy task for the opponent in the middle of a Top Battle.

It can often create a confusion in ppl that wouldn't be there if they simply ignored to try and tech it from the beginning.

You're absolutely right. I've noticed this actually becomes a pain in the armour for even high level players, as they have multiple options they can work with which ends up becoming very frustrating for them.

 

[Xinc]

About Ganonciding: Found a less lethal Ganoncide that works especially well on Yoshi's Island. The edges of the stage are slanted downwards, so when Ganon aerial chokes an opponent near the slanted edge, he will slam them downwards and meteor them (past the ledge, they slide ride off). It can be teched but the surprise factor is pretty darn good. I'm going to bet a lot of Ganon players will end up going to Yoshi's if BF is banned in any tournies, so... yeah.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What I really want to know is what kind of frame advantage we have on people who tech, and if that frame advantage varies based on characters. Ideally you should be able to punish every option if you prepare for it, but that might not be possible depending on how the numbers end up.

I wish there was an option to make cpu's always tech or something.

There is circumstantial and video evidence that suggests very strongly that frame advantage for missed techs vs teching works exactly the same in this game as in Brawl (and probably Melee for that matter, honestly).

In short, you have the exact same frame advantage on people who tech in place instead of not teching. Only against people who tech in place, you can grab them, and if your frame advantage on tech in place was already enough to D-tilt (which I'm assuming is 10+ frames, because D-tilt and F-tilt do not appear visually different), you get guaranteed F-tilts on all those characters as well that won't whiff.

Your frame advantage on people who techroll is 14 frames greater than what it is for them (not) teching in place, which means if they are in range and you read the roll, you can get a guaranteed Smash Attack followup. Understanding the interaction with Ganon's DACUS and away techrolls will very likely be extremely important because of this.

The main time teching Ganondorf's Flame Choke sucks for him is when you do aerial Flame Choke, which is still negative on hit.

Now if I understand how teching works in this game, it is probably worth keeping in mind that your opponent probably is not allowed to tech Flame Choke if they were actually shielding. This is because when inputting the shield button (which allows you to tech), it also forcibly creates a window where you are not allowed to input a tech afterwards.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Now if I understand how teching works in this game, it is probably worth keeping in mind that your opponent probably is not allowed to tech Flame Choke if they were actually shielding. This is because when inputting the shield button (which allows you to tech), it also forcibly creates a window where you are not allowed to input a tech afterwards.

How true is this?

 

[A2ZOMG]

How true is this?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Tech

Unless things drastically changed since Melee, inputting a shield command that does not result in a tech within 20 frames puts you in a state where you are not allowed to tech for 40 frames. Now, neither of us probably has the exact total duration of Ganon's Flame choke in terms of frames, but the jist of this means successfully Flame Choking an opponent who was shielding theoretically would put them in a situation where they were not allowed to tech.

I'm pretty certain that the devs are generally speaking fans of reusing general mechanics, so I'd have reason to believe it's probably about the same in this game.

 

[_Magus_]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Tech

Unless things drastically changed since Melee, inputting a shield command that does not result in a tech within 20 frames puts you in a state where you are not allowed to tech for 40 frames. Now, neither of us probably has the exact total duration of Ganon's Flame choke in terms of frames, but the jist of this means successfully Flame Choking an opponent who was shielding theoretically would put them in a situation where they were not allowed to tech.

I'm pretty certain that the devs are generally speaking fans of reusing general mechanics, so I'd have reason to believe it's probably about the same in this game.

The Implications being that all the normal followups (character specific, obviously) are available if you catch somebody who shields too much? Very intruiging

 

[HeavyLobster]

The Implications being that all the normal followups (character specific, obviously) are available if you catch somebody who shields too much? Very intruiging

It gets even more intriguing, because according to training mode, Flame Choke -> Dark Fists is guaranteed on Mario if he doesn't tech, and depending on who else it works on it could mean guaranteed kill setups at relatively low %s, as Dark Fists kills much sooner than Dtilt or Ftilt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It gets even more intriguing, because according to training mode, Flame Choke -> Dark Fists is guaranteed on Mario if he doesn't tech, and depending on who else it works on it could mean guaranteed kill setups at relatively low %s, as Dark Fists kills much sooner than Dtilt or Ftilt.

That's just the combo counter in training mode being misleading and only accounting for what the game "thinks" is hitstun.