Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Illuvial]

http://youtu.be/D_OO7Z8DI7U?list=UUVGyW9oSTeF4zvQ8XDEAdKw

tips?

Punishing rolls with his Down Smash isn't effective, punishing with Up Smash is better since its faster and only hits at one angle instead of alternating

Utilize his Down B and Side B more. His Down B can be use to get out of sticky situations when you see the opponent running towards you or it can be used to punish if they roll away from you. His Side B is self explanatory, it leads to big damage and oki opportunities

 

[rahsosprout]

Could you update my section on the flame choke followups?
The original one I did was crap. There are some qualifying statements in the original thread that aren't that important.

http://imgur.com/9LhItgJ

Edit: also just a question, if they tech roll away, are there any guaranteed followups/is it even worth testing?

 

[Kamiko]

I'm not sure how important this is considering the move involved, but Warlock Punch seems to lose its armor when reversed.

 

[Bittersweet]

I'm not sure how important this is considering the move involved, but Warlock Punch seems to lose its armor when reversed.

WP's armor has actually served me well several times in matches. It's great for punishing moves with end lag.

 

[Jacob29]

Personally to me, and the other local top players.

Ganon sucks really badly.

But heck he is the most fun character in this dry game so I am going to main the hell out of him.

 

[jahkzheng]

I feel I ought to elaborate on the custom equipment I discussed earlier in this thread a while ago now...

For those curious, my initial equipment was a Super Agility Badge with +35 Speed and -22 Attack, a Mystical Magic Stone with +31 Attack and -21 Defense, and a Protection Badge with +15 Defense and -7 Speed. My numbers in total being Attack 9+, Defense -6, and Speed +28. This set gave me AC SH dairs easily and it was with just a small set of options as I'd not acquired much equipment at all at the time. I did some tests on my power and defense as well with Warlock Punch from the default position of FD. I could kill default Ganon about 5% earlier, but he could kill me about 4% earlier. The damage he did to me and the damage I did to him were also increased in both cases.

Later I got more equipment and was able to make a custom Ganon with Attack +2, Defense +1, and Speed +22. Still had SH AC dairs and no negatives. Yes, I didn't hit as hard, but default Ganon hits plenty hard already. I didn't test if the 2% gave a significant boost to my attack but I'd imagine it wouldn't be more than a 1% damage increase or a 1% sooner kill.

I understand this stuff may not at all be relevant to competitive play since I'm talking about custom equipment here, but I did acknowledge that in my previous post. Just elaborating on my customs for those curious.

 

[DooshMcDoosh]

I'm not sure how important this is considering the move involved, but Warlock Punch seems to lose its armor when reversed.

are sure u werent just really high in dmg? it does lower the armor cap for the frames the more dmg u got

 

[Super_Smasher6]

i can confirm that you lose your super armor when reversing it, a fireball from mario will cancel your move at low % :/

 

[Daeyrat]

so that's why it's so strong (reverse wp)

 

[victra♥]

ganon's only approach

is to hope your opponent sucks

 

[Z1GMA]

ganon's only approach

is to hope your opponent sucks

These are old news. Click the link in @ Opana 's thread "Up Tilt Wind Canceling" and you'll see.

Please use the search-function next time.

 

[victra♥]

@ Opana
These are old news. Click the link in @ Opana 's thread "Up Tilt Wind Canceling" and you'll see.

Please use the search-function next time.

lmaoooooo I'm dying 10/10

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Could you update my section on the flame choke followups?
The original one I did was crap. There are some qualifying statements in the original thread that aren't that important.

http://imgur.com/9LhItgJ

Edit: also just a question, if they tech roll away, are there any guaranteed followups/is it even worth testing?

Thanks for your work. Edited into the OP.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I believe on grounded flame choke, we can chase away techrolls with DACUS.

Obviously I can't test this yet, but U-smash has similar startup to F-smash, and you can punish inward techrolls with F-smash.

This is a very big deal because I believe DACUS techchase might be safe even if they don't techroll away because you will crossover your opponent, and techroll away is usually the hardest option for Ganondorf to punish. Also now we generally have a KO option on every escape option the opponent has after Flame Choke.

 

[Shogger]

http://youtu.be/D_OO7Z8DI7U?list=UUVGyW9oSTeF4zvQ8XDEAdKw

tips?

Lay off the smashes. The beauty of Ganondorf is that a lot of your moves hit hard. Why use the slowest ones? At the beginning you were just throwing out smashes and hoping they connected. Step back, space a bit by walking and shielding, and try punishing with tilts or jabs, or grabs. Then you can lay on the ham once he's airborne or higher %.

Also, if you're coming down towards someone who likes to try and juggle in the air, use Down-B. Does hella damage and knockback, and people don't expect it if you don't do it often.

 

[Z1GMA]

I've been abusing SH Uair > Buffered Gerudo lately, against ppl falling to the ground.
Thanks to the new landing airdodge-mechanic, some characters can't really respond to it that well.
Either you try to outpower Ganon's Uair (good luck), or you airdodge and eat his Gerudo.

This is nothing new - we did it in Brawl, but I just can't stress enough how powerful this is in this game.
For many opponents, it creates a window that is hard to do anything about, really.
Actually, it's so good in this game, that it deservers its own name;
Dark Window? Evil Window? Wicked Window?

Usmash can work at times as well, but it's not nearly as practical as Uair.

 

[Thinkaman]

Important:
Villager Timber Counter is a very important move to understand. It has 15 HP and reflects all melee attacks until it dies. The attack that kills it is not countered.

Ganon can kill the tree safely with:

• f-smash
• u-smash
• bair (best option)
• fair
• dair
• initial aerial hitbox of fresh default wizkick

This is a very dominant and powerful move against people without projectiles. Ganon should consider taking default wizkick and default Flame Choke in this matchup if bair proves insufficient.

 

[Opana]

Honestly, I only use Usmash to bait with the IASA frames.

 

[Lozjam]

@ Thinkaman
I'm glad you have joined us.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Important:
Villager Timber Counter is a very important move to understand. It has 15 HP and reflects all melee attacks until it dies. The attack that kills it is not countered.

Ganon can kill the tree safely with:

• f-smash
• u-smash
• bair (best option)
• fair
• dair
• initial aerial hitbox of fresh default wizkick

This is a very dominant and powerful move against people without projectiles. Ganon should consider taking default wizkick and default Flame Choke in this matchup if bair proves insufficient.

I don't believe Default Wizkick outweighs FOOT DIVE in this matchup simply because FOOT DIVE is superior for actually getting out of traps safely as well as recovery, which are two things Ganon appreciates against Villager.

Warlock Blade in contrast is probably underrated for killing the tree.

 

[Opana]

I find it best to bait them into chopping the tree or power shield, may not be the best methods but they work for me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I find it best to bait them into chopping the tree or power shield, may not be the best methods but they work for me.

You're talking a different move. This is one of the Villager's custom moves.

 

[Opana]

You're talking a different move. This is one of the Villager's custom moves.

Woops, sorry about that.

Thanks for letting me know.

 

[Dr. Krumm]

I've been abusing SH Uair > Buffered Gerudo lately, against ppl falling to the ground.
Thanks to the new landing airdodge-mechanic, some characters can't really respond to it that well.
Either you try to outpower Ganon's Uair (good luck), or you airdodge and eat his Gerudo.

This is nothing new - we did it in Brawl, but I just can't stress enough how powerful this is in this game.
For many opponents, it creates a window that is hard to do anything about, really.
Actually, it's so good in this game, that it deservers its own name;
Dark Window? Evil Window? Wicked Window?

Usmash can work at times as well, but it's not nearly as practical as Uair.

I tried this out, and yea, this is pretty damn good. Unless the opponents character has some crazy disjointed dair to challenge Ganons Uair, this is really useful. Either they eat the Uair or the eat the Gerudo.

Oh, and I vote for Wicked Window, that way we can confuse newcomers and say WW, they'll think we're talking about Wind Waker.

 

[Dr. Krumm]

I have found that Nair is excellent for combo-breaking, comes out pretty fast, has quite good hitboxes and hits twice. One of my sparring partners main Greninja and I destroyed his combos all day with Nair.

Oh and Ganon wrecks the Ninja off-stage. God I love how his recovery only has a wind box, he ate the tip man all day long last time we played.

 

[Dr. Krumm]

I feel I ought to elaborate on the custom equipment I discussed earlier in this thread a while ago now...

For those curious, my initial equipment was a Super Agility Badge with +35 Speed and -22 Attack, a Mystical Magic Stone with +31 Attack and -21 Defense, and a Protection Badge with +15 Defense and -7 Speed. My numbers in total being Attack 9+, Defense -6, and Speed +28. This set gave me AC SH dairs easily and it was with just a small set of options as I'd not acquired much equipment at all at the time. I did some tests on my power and defense as well with Warlock Punch from the default position of FD. I could kill default Ganon about 5% earlier, but he could kill me about 4% earlier. The damage he did to me and the damage I did to him were also increased in both cases.

Later I got more equipment and was able to make a custom Ganon with Attack +2, Defense +1, and Speed +22. Still had SH AC dairs and no negatives. Yes, I didn't hit as hard, but default Ganon hits plenty hard already. I didn't test if the 2% gave a significant boost to my attack but I'd imagine it wouldn't be more than a 1% damage increase or a 1% sooner kill.

I understand this stuff may not at all be relevant to competitive play since I'm talking about custom equipment here, but I did acknowledge that in my previous post. Just elaborating on my customs for those curious.

I tested some stuff myself, you need exactly 18+ in movement to AC your Dairs, on top of that you can do full hop Nair and still have time to use the mid air (which I believe Ganon could do in Brawl), which does not work with standard stats Ganon. Both of these things are really powerful should customs be legal, since it enhances his options and his mobility. Like you said, he already hits hard and is already heavy, so it is my belief that improving his greatest weakness, which is mobility, will be most benefitial.

Edit: holy moly, I'm totally spamming the forum right now! My apologies! xD

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

SH Dair > D-throw > Uair works

Dair > Fair works

Ganon why are you so good?

 

[Opana]

Ganonfist(Link)

Ganondorf: God of Thunder

 

[rahsosprout]

SH Dair > D-throw > Uair works

Dair > Fair works

Ganon why are you so good?

Unfortunately, it's quite easy to tech the d-air.

 

[Shogger]

Ganonfist(Link)

Ganondorf: God of Thunder

I'm not sure if this is correct, but did you tank the Thunder with WP super armor and then hit him with it offstage?

If so, that's fricken' awesome.

 

[Opana]

I'm not sure if this is correct, but did you tank the Thunder with WP super armor and then hit him with it offstage?

If so, that's fricken' awesome.

Yes sir, the SA frames literally saved me from the bolt and the shock and killed him off. One of the most bad ass kills I've eveer gotten lol, I was trying to recover like in brawl with the reverse reverse punch. It still somewhat works but not as good.

Sorry for the quality though.

 

[Z1GMA]

If anyone didn't know, Mega Man can Up+B out of Gerudo instantly before touching the ground.

 

[Opana]

Not 100% on this, but when my timings off for wizkick ledge cancels into aerials, it seems to buffer a nair. Might be useful for covering a lot of area or something, idk but wanted to mention it.

 

[Z1GMA]

Not 100% on this, but when my timings off for wizkick ledge cancels into aerials, it seems to buffer a nair. Might be useful for covering a lot of area or something, idk but wanted to mention it.

Yeah, the same happens to me. If I try to WKC > buffered aerial, I always get a Nair.
I don't know why this happens yet.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, the same happens to me. If I try to WKC > buffered aerial, I always get a Nair.
I don't know why this happens yet.

What I heard is in this game, the buffering system is only able to que one input at a time.

 

[Z1GMA]

What I heard is in this game, the buffering system is only able to que one input at a time.

That sucks. Expalins why I can't SH Bair > buffered turnaraound-Dtilt.

This means C-sticking will not be as useful as I thought.
At least we'll get iDA and quicker smashes. Hopefully increased range on reversed Fsmashes as well.

 

[Opana]

I don't recall this in Brawl, and it's likely been brought up but you can fast fall an uair right as you run offstage. Didn't try much else, but know from experience that fair and nair won't work lol.

Also, a follow up I've started experimenting with for missed flame chioke techs(Where applicable):
Flame Choke->Dtilt->Full Hop Flame Choke

I know aerials gerudo isn't as good, but maybe it can lead to a ganoncide or just catch an unsuspecting foe.

 

[Thinkaman]

New game! Convince me that I shouldn't always use Flame Chain vs. Flame Choke!

 

[HeavyLobster]

Here's something interesting I've found. If you FH Warlock Punch/Blade off of one of the side platforms on BF so that you go offstage, the attack will come out just a bit below the stage and you can make it back if you use Dark Vault(not if you use either of the other recoveries). Considering the armor on these moves, this could be a useful, albeit risky, edgeguarding tactic, especially against predictable horizontal recoveries like DK and Bowser's.

 

[Opana]

New game! Convince me that I shouldn't always use Flame Chain vs. Flame Choke!

Flame Chain isn't as versatile, can be shielded unlike choke, no ganoncide, and Flame Choke sounds cooler.