Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Kyogokudo]

Nope specials will never hit (tried dark dive and WP too)

 

[Theosmeo]

Would Flame Choke work? I'm not sure if it's actually useful, but...

The people it could dunk (DK, charizard) would be too big to actually be knocked off the ledge, it's free damage and puts them back on the ledge tho

Edit: NVN covered above

 

[LoveExpert]

Nope specials will never hit (tried dark dive and WP too)

you can totally hit zard with an air-choke, video proof at 0:54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRTFDIrGX8w

 

[Kyogokudo]

you can totally hit zard with an air-choke, video proof at 0:54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRTFDIrGX8w

I only tested ground choke.
Updated with aerial choke now.

 

[Z1GMA]

Okay, guys.
After the Dash Attack Buff (end-lag), I was thinking that maybe iDA after Gerudo is a better option than Dtilt (provided you can perform a perfect iDA asap every time), which is hard vs 10-framers, but not very hard vs 12-framers+.

It does more damage, and sets ppl up for juggling better (debatable).
Dtilt is also better at getting kills a lot of the times, especially when kinda fresh.

I mean, if I knew a technique that let me buffer an iDA, I'd use it A LOT with the current Ganon.

Thoughts?

 

[Theosmeo]

Okay, guys.
After the Dash Attack Buff (end-lag), I was thinking that maybe iDA after Gerudo is a better option than Dtilt (provided you can perform a perfect iDA asap every time), which is hard vs 10-framers, but not very hard vs 12-framers+.

It does more damage, and sets ppl up for juggling better (debatable).
Dtilt is also better at getting kills a lot of the times, especially when kinda fresh.

I mean, if I knew a technique that let me buffer an iDA, I'd use it A LOT with the current Ganon.

Thoughts?

In terms of follow ups I guess it depends, (Imagine they´re to the right of you) dtilt knocks people right but early DA knocks them up and you are put more right of them you with more time to put out a Bair or a later Uair that´ll launch them left. It probably depends on what kind of stage control you want. For people with small tech forward lengths(M2, Mac, Bowser, Falcon) it would probably hit them with late hit, meaning a free fair. Itś probably good against little mac and bowser just because it covers 2 techs and every techless option and leads to a Fair.

I´ve tried instant DA because it seems like it´d work before but I never got it too work because my hands are kinda slow

 

[MGK]

I would have to test if DA for a missed tech is a option. I'll defiantly have a look at this one for everyone.

In case you guys wanted to get a sour spot DA > Fair from missed tech side B roll away. I did lab this a day or two after DA buff.

Here the link: http://smashboards.com/threads/sour-hit-of-dash-attack-set-ups.433274/

 

[free33]

one thing i find frustrating about ganon's competitive design is that he thrives so much on the ledge and offstage with edgeguarding, side b, ftilt, ledge canceled wizard foot, jab into tumble dair, and powerful general base knockback, but then he struggles so much with recovering and getting off the ledge and gaining stage control. His biggest strengths require ganon to confront his biggest weaknesses, forcing him to have to always make the correct decisions, lest he be put in a terrible disadvantaged state. What do you guys feel about this?

 

[Opana]

I kinda like that aspect, it forces me to be precise. I guess I don't really mind it in this instance.

 

[Litany]

I don't mind it, even though it's fundamentally flawed design. It's what makes Ganon unique I suppose.

 

[MGK]

I honestly wouldn't change a thing with ganondorf because I love playing such a high risk, high reward character. Making the right move is really satisfying and his edge guarding is one of the best things in this game. I probably get the most enjoyment out of his edge guarding to be honest.

 

[Blobface]

I'd only call Ganon's disadvantage state mediocre, not terrible or anything. He's pretty good on the ledge due to his stupid ledgehang and decent ledgehops and getups. U-air, N-air, and Wizkick aren't get-out-of-jail-free cards but they still do a good job of keeping people from just murdering you off a single hit.

 

[Opana]

I agree with that as well for most of his mus, he's no Bowser lol.

 

[adom4]

Kyogokudo compiled the moves that hit Ganon's ledge hang into a google doc (note that this was tested on battlefield):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hJGGMml_-YLuxAJHFhK5Zpj729pqEb5FEhBjc_SRsN0/edit#gid=0

 

[free33]

Every time someone in the SoCal sm4sh community posts a mu spread, Ganon is always losing massively. It seemed strange to me, since I see good ganons beating many different characters that he apparently should pretty much never beat. It got me thinking. Why does he lose so many mu's so poorly in theory? Is there a specific flaw, or a few specific fundamental flaws in Ganon's competitive design that makes him lose pretty much every mu? What could be changed about Ganon, without changing his fundamental competitive design, and without making him stupid good in casual play, that would make him at least a mid tier threat? Or is his competitive design too fundamentally flawed?

 

[Blobface]

Every time someone in the SoCal sm4sh community posts a mu spread, Ganon is always losing massively. It seemed strange to me, since I see good ganons beating many different characters that he apparently should pretty much never beat. It got me thinking. Why does he lose so many mu's so poorly in theory? Is there a specific flaw, or a few specific fundamental flaws in Ganon's competitive design that makes him lose pretty much every mu? What could be changed about Ganon, without changing his fundamental competitive design, and without making him stupid good in casual play, that would make him at least a mid tier threat? Or is his competitive design too fundamentally flawed?

Ganon does lose a lot of matchups but honestly a lot of matchup charts seriously overstate it. If you actually asked them to explain what makes Ganon lose you'd probably they don't really know much about Ganon. That's exactly why I hate matchup charts actually, they're a format that actively prevents explanation and actual matchup discussion.

 

[adom4]

Ray_Kalm can you add these two google docs to the OP please?

Moves that hit Ganon's ledge hang: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hJGGMml_-YLuxAJHFhK5Zpj729pqEb5FEhBjc_SRsN0/edit#gid=0

Air choke follow ups: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K0nN9ktorpxb_S5NSa6eOVqoiax-pV32tVAyg5_Hecg/edit#gid=0

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I will do so in a bit.

 

[Z1GMA]

I feel I can deal with most situations in the Game as Ganondorf, except edgeguarding ppl with Tether Recoveries.
As Ganondorf Mains, we are deadly when when get ppl off stage, but I feel Tether Recoveries greatly nerfs my edgeguarding.
Do we have an expert in this area?

 

[adom4]

i try to Nair with my face to the stage because it lasts for so long, falling Nair from a ledge hang works well too.

 

[Litany]

I feel I can deal with most situations in the Game as Ganondorf, except edgeguarding ppl with Tether Recoveries.
As Ganondorf Mains, we are deadly when when get ppl off stage, but I feel Tether Recoveries greatly nerfs my edgeguarding.
Do we have an expert in this area?

I'm no expert, but I usually perform a ledgedrop DJ N-air to cover tether recoveries.

 

[Daeyrat]

I feel I can deal with most situations in the Game as Ganondorf, except edgeguarding ppl with Tether Recoveries.
As Ganondorf Mains, we are deadly when when get ppl off stage, but I feel Tether Recoveries greatly nerfs my edgeguarding.
Do we have an expert in this area?

Use ground Down B to gain horizontal distance from the stage, then meet them where they're not safe to tether (it doesn't grant them invulnerability unless they touch ledgesnap)

 

[adom4]

I forgot to put it here lol, here's a compilation of google docs about Ganon data, Ray_Kalm can you add it to the OP please?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...kM76Bf74jvhM8OV_PU78dCWNGw/edit#gid=527703575