Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Scarlet Jile]

I never assume they can tech it until they do. It doesn't take long for you to get a feel for how consistent your opponent is with the tech. There are too many better characters in this game for flame choke tech to become essential practice for most people.

 

[Opana]

I fought this Pikachu main a lot that I'm roughly even with that teched everything including chokes 100% of th4e time unless the connection was like a 1/10. At the highest level of play I absolutely expect players to tech this whenever they choose to, but I don't expect every player to always choose that as laying there can be a good mix up as well. But yeah if they're not lying still I can almost guarantee they'll tech, that's why I've used choke less and less as I've developed my play. I have fought others who tech it just as well, although I bring up Pikachu as I feel a Pikachu that can tech reliably is worse than a Sheik, when they learned to tech that it really pushed Pikachu over the top for me lol.

I still think choke is amazing, really I think any moving grab box is amazing including dd, but at higher levels of play it does become unreliable to follow up from from my exp.

 

[Showyoucan]

Here's a somewhat of a combo:
Down Throw > Perf Pivot > F-tilt (c-stick)
works on fast fallers and avoids staling Ganon's aerials

 

[verbatim]

I'll make a video later, but has anyone experienced this before? I Flame Choked my friend at the edge and she didn't grab the ledge as per usual. It just spiked her. Most disrespectful thing I've ever seen. I felt like I was Scar, and her Mufasa.

This happened to me in a for glory match. The person quit so I didn't get to save the video, but me and my friend did find some interesting things out while trying to recreate it.

If you Flame Choke a get up your opponent will fall down and auto snap to the ledge, even in edge case situations like the wind blowing against them on Dreamland 64. The only way for it to spike them is if they are holding down when they would normally snap to the ledge. This doesn't seem very useful, since generally speaking people recovering want to grab the ledge, but some characters, Ganondorf included, can choose to mixup their recovery by holding down so their up b doesn't autosnap and can hit the opponent before releasing down and THEN grabbing the ledge. If you bait this out on an up b that doesn't produce a hitbox that will stop you and they don't release down in time, a Flame Choke will instakill.

This is pretty minuscule and I doubt it's worth practicing, but I think we should consider using Flame Choke and holding away from the ledge (so you don't SD) against characters with chokeable recoveries. If they go for the hold down trick they die, if they don't we get a ledge trump. Worst case scenario we get hit by the move that would have hit us if we tried the normal trump anyways. Realistically this would be a slow ledge trump mixup that might instakill once in a lifetime.

Characters that I know this works on:

Luigi

Characters that this could work on and who actually benefit from not sweetspotting. Generally speaking you'd need to grab them before their hitbox comes out, at an angle where their hitbox doesn't touch you, or when they're in special fall and they don't have a hitbox.

BJR
Wario
G&W
Diddy Kong
Little Mac (can't sweetspot even if he wants to)
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
DDD
MK
Pikachu (good luck)
Sonic
Megaman


Sidenote: I really wish we got a custom side b that didn't work on shields but had super armor

 

[Kyzon Xin]

This happened to me in a for glory match. The person quit so I didn't get to save the video, but me and my friend did find some interesting things out while trying to recreate it.

If you Flame Choke a get up your opponent will fall down and auto snap to the ledge, even in edge case situations like the wind blowing against them on Dreamland 64. The only way for it to spike them is if they are holding down when they would normally snap to the ledge. This doesn't seem very useful, since generally speaking people recovering want to grab the ledge, but some characters, Ganondorf included, can choose to mixup their recovery by holding down so their up b doesn't autosnap and can hit the opponent before releasing down and THEN grabbing the ledge. If you bait this out on an up b that doesn't produce a hitbox that will stop you and they don't release down in time, a Flame Choke will instakill.

This is pretty minuscule and I doubt it's worth practicing, but I think we should consider using Flame Choke and holding away from the ledge (so you don't SD) against characters with chokeable recoveries. If they go for the hold down trick they die, if they don't we get a ledge trump. Worst case scenario we get hit by the move that would have hit us if we tried the normal trump anyways. Realistically this would be a slow ledge trump mixup that might instakill once in a lifetime.

Characters that I know this works on:

Luigi

Characters that this could work on and who actually benefit from not sweetspotting. Generally speaking you'd need to grab them before their hitbox comes out, at an angle where their hitbox doesn't touch you, or when they're in special fall and they don't have a hitbox.

BJR
Wario
G&W
Diddy Kong
Little Mac (can't sweetspot even if he wants to)
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
DDD
MK
Pikachu (good luck)
Sonic
Megaman


Sidenote: I really wish we got a custom side b that didn't work on shields but had super armor

That's how I ledge trump half the time with Ganon anyways

The timing is very specific, but you have to be right up on the ledge and catch someone either as soon as they jump from the ledge, or if they're poking over (like Charizard) just catch them not doing anything, but the choke will always send them down without a snap if you're extremely close and have proper timing.

I tested this with 2 controllers in training mode. I used the 1/4th speed with the L button to make sure the dummy Charizard didn't press down during the choke. It's pretty situational though, but I'm guessing it can scare some opponents on the ledge.

 

[adom4]

I just noticed that the OP lacks the choke follow ups on the DLC characters:

Ryu & Roy: No follow ups
Mewtwo: Jab, D-tilt on tech away
Lucas: D-tilt & F-tilt

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I just noticed that the OP lacks the choke follow ups on the DLC characters:

Ryu & Roy: No follow ups
Mewtwo: Jab, D-tilt on tech away
Lucas: D-tilt & F-tilt

Added to the OP.

 

[Alter Requiem]

I fought this Pikachu main a lot that I'm roughly even with that teched everything including chokes 100% of th4e time unless the connection was like a 1/10. At the highest level of play I absolutely expect players to tech this whenever they choose to, but I don't expect every player to always choose that as laying there can be a good mix up as well. But yeah if they're not lying still I can almost guarantee they'll tech, that's why I've used choke less and less as I've developed my play. I have fought others who tech it just as well, although I bring up Pikachu as I feel a Pikachu that can tech reliably is worse than a Sheik, when they learned to tech that it really pushed Pikachu over the top for me lol.

I still think choke is amazing, really I think any moving grab box is amazing including dd, but at higher levels of play it does become unreliable to follow up from from my exp.

While i do feel your pain against those people that tech literally everything, i have found that people are usually preoccupied learning sheik and pika matchups to learn the timing of their characters tech for FC.

At Evo i played against a couple people i consider were probably better than me at the time, and they were missing FC techs left and right. (Including nintendude btw)

You shouldnt let that one person who has mastered the ganon counter turn you off of tech chasing and hard reads with FC, because after all, the unexpected action of playing ganon at high really high levels can pretty much our greatest strength and greatest weakness lol

 

[HeavyLobster]

Thanks to the patch, it's now possible to hit taller characters with FHAC Dair, which is both safe to throw out and can combo into all sorts of stuff at mid %s. Here's a list of all the characters I could hit.

Spoiler: FHAC Dair hits

Bowser
Peach
Yoshi
Rosalina
Bowser Jr.
DK
Link
Zelda
Sheik
Ganondorf
Samus
ZSS
Pit/Dark Pit
Palutena
Marth/Lucina
Ike
Robin
Dedede
Falco
ROB
Falcon
WFT
Shulk
Mewtwo
Roy
Ryu
Cloud

 

[Blobface]

Tested some stuff with Grounded D-air kill %'s since FHAC D-air is pretty safe to throw out now. No Rage D-air will kill most characters at 110% or below, with Bowser dying at 130% on Duck Hunt (high ceiling IIRC). With Full Rage, D-air will kill most characters at 90% or below, with Bowser now dying at 110%. The lowest % I could get was Jigglypuff on Town and City, dying at 70%, full rage of course.

 

[Pikachutobal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0qHaVNNx4s
I think I discovered a new glitch on ganondorf, I'm not sure

 

[Opana]

If you dthrow fair near a ledge you can choke towards the ledge instead of land with lag to put you in a more optimal(imo) position to edge guard.

Out of an aerial flame choke, if they roll away our dsmash can catch some characters. Atm I know it works on Bowser Jr, Falco, and Robin. I think it can catch Robin's outward techroll from a grounded choke too. So pretty much condition them to roll away and ledge hope choke->dsmash these characters. I theorize that it'll work on mac and zard too, can't test myself though.

FHAC Dair true kill combos into dark dive uppercut at specific percents iirc and strict timing.

We can use nair more effectively from a ledge grab position, it covers vertical recoverys much better than uair too. We can cover vertical/misc. recoverys from behind with uair, and if it whiffs rising nair. This is a really solid mix up that can force vertical recoverys to go high since we can control so much area with uair/nair.

Out of dthrow on some characters at early percents we can full hop nair to intentionally miss the second kick and set up a grounded footstool to I believe guaranteed wizkick or fast fall dair for more potential reward.

On fast fallers if they di away and don't jump I believe nair2 still catches them assuming they land on the ground(likely missing a tech) for a lock.

At certain percents if they air dodge our dthrow they'll land with minimal time to dodge an utilt initiated immediately, potentially throwing up shield in a panic or just dodging for little to no punish. Just messed with this today and landed it on two different players(only two I attempted), may attempt it at my weekly if they dodge a lot.

Run off->air choke onstage can catch ledge options effectively and can be used out of choke effectively as well(or a jumping variant). This conditions them to roll away which we can catch with dash attack/wizkick/choke/etc.

If they've used their shield slightly zdrop select items(like gyro and mechakoopa) and air wizkick for a shield break.

If you're unsure what to do with an item I often find tossing it upwards to be effective, as it can keep most items out of play and control that space.

If you're fighting Bowser Jr you can airdodge or use an aerial as the mechakoopa approaches the very edge to grab it. Then you can buffer an item throw out of a ledge hop or use it for other things.

If you condition them not to waste their jump after uthrow spaced nair will cover every other option which can then potentially string into an aerial. You can condition them not to by taking advantage of their lack of a jump and punishing the jump/landing for great reward.

If you fthrow them and they jump, uair or other aerials can gimp them early due to the lack of jump, or put on good damage.

Run off and nair, then very briefly after you can fast fall to cover a very large area and still recover.

Wizkick spikes are effective when you believe they'll jump or you read an air dodge as it pauses your momentum. Specifically air dodges with horizontal momentum you read that a dair wouldn't hit. Few people expect a stall and fall option like that from dorf since it's so underused.

Out of an aerial wizkick, time warlock punch right as you land to beat punishes with super armor. Buffer a turnaround before use if necessary, don't use a reverse punch though despite the armor buff as it's slower. This tactic is an especially interesting option from the highest tree platform on duck hunt out of a double jump.

From that same area of trees, specifically on their lower ones, it sets us up in a similar position right when the wizkick ends to challenge punishes with superarmor.

When Lylat is tilted up and about to tilt back down, ledge hop reverse warlock punch can be safely used offstage. Due to the extra height when you jumped, and the ledge being lower, we can grab it unlike when we'd attempt it otherwise. This applies to the final stage of castle siege as well.

During a gale boomerang we can use this to power through his attacks barring grab, although we only goso far. However, if you read a back roll meant to avoid it you can catch that with a turnaround warlock punch(not reverse) potentially. Say they shoot an arrow and we tank it, if they panic roll back they get hit.

Out of a wizkick from smashville's platform, it sets us up perfectly for a grounded footstool into wizkick.

The wind on dream land extends the range at which we can wizkick cancel.

Not something I've done but I theorize a bomb instant tossed back at link can true combo into a ganoncide at certain percents.

At early percents(near zero) bair sets up an opportunity to tech chase with a turnaround wizkick.

Shielding the opposite way into turnaround wizkick is an interesting surprise option for people who may be pursuing you or within range.

Fthrow into wallls can string reliablely into fsmash kills on a stage such as delfino if they miss the fairly strict tech(s?).

Intentionally stand near the edge to bait a kirby/d3 inhale, then use utilt. We need to be extremely close, otherwise they can't inhale us afaik which will give them a nasty surprise.

If you intentionally hit the ducks on duck hunt to raise the dog platform, I believe utilt can hit some taller characters/shields who don't expect it.

If we sdi up and away, from my experience sometimes we can uair out of rapid jabs

We can grab falco if both jabs hit our shield before rapid jab comes out, or on it to break out from it and reset the neutral.

We can ganoncide ness or dark dive him before thunder hits him.

We can trade aerial flame choke with other moves offstage to actually grab break and gimp them(like lucas' pkt2 or just timing it right on the hit box). Likely more effective with dark dive though as we can angle that straight up to put a grab box along the side of the stage after dropping from the ledge.

Since reverse uair causes characters to slide starting in the mid percents, we can string turnaround wizkick or flame choke nicely(not guaranteed). At early percents reverse uair is punishable on hit, much like wizkick.

Some stuff I posted previously but I mentioned again as a sort of mini compilation.

 

[Alter Requiem]

Sorry for being totally off topic here.... but there was a thread dedicated to this data, but its been dead for a year so I'm not hopeful about getting a response.

http://i.imgur.com/9LhItgJ.png

I live by this guide
Memorized this ASAP and it hasn't let me down yet

But now as the game ages, more and more people tech FC. Effectively making it about half as likely for the Ganondorf to properly read the getup and punish accordingly. I have noticed that some characters successful teching away is still 100% punishable by wizard foot, yet others aren't. My worry is that I will read a tech properly go for the "Usual Punish" and in turn be punished back because of a characters awkward tech frame data (greninja has this) My question is this: Is there any data on a successful FC tech? If not I would be very interested in doing the testing, but I have very limited time and probably wouldn't be done in a timely manner. If anyone would like to help me test the other half of the roster it could be done relatively fast though.

 

[Bloodynite]

Random little note:

Ganon can combo after upsmash (opponent is grounded) with either jab or f-tilt at 0-3% for on certain characters. (Sometimes f-tilt connects more often then jab)
The only ones i quickly tried it out on were: Sheik, Bowser, Capt. Falcon, Dedede.

Some of said characters are actually tall enough to be hit by the sweetspot of the upsmash for extra damage.

I'll post data results within a week.

 

[Z1GMA]

"
Zero Suit Samus 00:10

• Weight: 81 -> 80
• Boost Kick Final Hit Angle: 50 -> 48
  
• Boost Kick Final Hit KBG: 220 -> 209

"

YES!!

 

[Jackson Fall]

I'm a bit confused as to how exactly these numbers work. How big of a nerf is this for her?

 

[Vermanubis]

I have no point of reference, so I'm guessing in a vacuum, but I was futzing around with it earlier today and it still kills pretty early, though not quite as early as it used to. I'd say it's a pretty decent nerf. It's a most welcome one, too, since she had kill confirms against Ganon out of dthrow with the old one.

 

[MGK]

Random little note:

Ganon can combo after upsmash (opponent is grounded) with either jab or f-tilt at 0-3% for on certain characters. (Sometimes f-tilt connects more often then jab)
The only ones i quickly tried it out on were: Sheik, Bowser, Capt. Falcon, Dedede.

Some of said characters are actually tall enough to be hit by the sweetspot of the upsmash for extra damage.

I'll post data results within a week.

You can also Combo uSmash into Nair or Uair and even Fair against Fast Fallers. The safest and most effective is Uair cos FH Uair then leads into a 50 / 50 and if you get that, so much %.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm a bit confused as to how exactly these numbers work. How big of a nerf is this for her?

Well, she can still kill us just as early if she gets us with that "Elevator-effect" (the kicks Before the final kick)
--but, we'll live a good tad longer when hit by the final kick.

On its own, the growth is a good tad worse, which helps us live longer, both verticaly and horizontaly.
On its own, that small change in the angle will help us not get KO'd verticaly as easy as before, but not really help us surviving horizontal knockback.
These two combined, makes for a pretty nice nerf.

 

[Blobface]

Found some neat ups we have against Sheik.

• We can F-air all of Sheik's getup options out of aerial choke. Against getup attack, shield, block the first hit (she only attacks once on each side) then immediately jump out of shield and F-air. Unforunately you have to hard commit to each option, and there's no way to cover more than one unless she's right next to a ledge.
• If you manage to force Sheik to use her Up B to ledgesnap, you can grab the ledge, then ledgedrop U-air for an EZPZ edgeguard. You can even go for ledgedrop DJ D-air if you're feeling saucy. Remember that if you hit her out of the two frame, she can DJ again, meaning she's likely to come back if the hit doesn't outright kill her.

 

[Urthclaw]

On Ganon's new Nair, I learned the early hitbox of the first hit has set knockback. You can hit with it by short hopping and fastfalling a late Nair. The set knockback puts them in a great place to hit with Ftilt, Grab, or another Nair. However, I'm unsure of its actual potential because it still puts you in landing lag and deals low damage. Does anyone know if the hitstun allows it to be actually useful? I haven't had the chance to test it against real people.

 

[Blobface]

On Ganon's new Nair, I learned the early hitbox of the first hit has set knockback. You can hit with it by short hopping and fastfalling a late Nair. The set knockback puts them in a great place to hit with Ftilt, Grab, or another Nair. However, I'm unsure of its actual potential because it still puts you in landing lag and deals low damage. Does anyone know if the hitstun allows it to be actually useful? I haven't had the chance to test it against real people.

It can mix people up at times, but usually you'll be frame neutral, or even at a frame disadvantage.

 

[Astrofallz]

This probs would have been a better thread for it but oh well. I have posted a full Flame Choke Missed Tech followups list in the "Discoveries, tricks and AT's thread" please look over it so I can change anything if necessary.

 

[Theosmeo]

Luigi

BJR
Wario
G&W
Diddy Kong
Little Mac (can't sweetspot even if he wants to)
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
DDD
MK
Pikachu (good luck)
Sonic
Megaman


Sidenote: I really wish we got a custom side b that didn't work on shields but had super armor

Don't know if it's because of the patch moving the grabbox forward but I got this on my friends Toon Link the other day, it was at his house and he was salty so I couldn't get the replay but I think testing should be done because this it a kill throw at any % and due to the darkness effect it is more like a spike than a meteor a la wizard foot or mewtwos dair

 

[Alter Requiem]

Hey guys check this out and tell me what you think

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-ledge-option-for-ganondorf.434756/

 

[Shmeckie]

I'll make a video later, but has anyone experienced this before? I Flame Choked my friend at the edge and she didn't grab the ledge as per usual. It just spiked her. Most disrespectful thing I've ever seen. I felt like I was Scar, and her Mufasa.

Late reply, I know, but yes! Certain characters seem to drop like a stone if choked while climbing onto the ledge. Pretty sure it would be worth cataloging who it works on and who it doesn't work on. I know for a fact it works on Donkey Kong, because I've done it to DKs more times than I can count.

 

[free33]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvF79iT-VAg
does anyone know if this really works? because my sparring partner mains ness and this would be awesome!

 

[HeavyLobster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvF79iT-VAg
does anyone know if this really works? because my sparring partner mains ness and this would be awesome!

Training mode is a filthy liar, especially when grab releases or Flame Choke are concerned.

 

[free33]

Training mode is a filthy liar, especially when grab releases or Flame Choke are concerned.

Dang it! ok thanks i guess

 

[Theosmeo]

Dang it! ok thanks i guess

Seems like an effective mix-up though, just be quiet when you mash down and B. I know pummel releases are really laggy as well so It'll be less reliable than just being greedy on pummels.

 

[Alter Requiem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvF79iT-VAg
does anyone know if this really works? because my sparring partner mains ness and this would be awesome!

After testing this myself i can confirm that its never true offstage or onstage. However while using it offstage is good for killing if they fail to react properly (mashing airdodge or mashing jump), I feel like it could be even better utilized as an on stage damage tool in that dry % area where most combos fail to connect and most kill moves fail to kill. When grab released over the stage the "mash airdodge" option doesn't protect them from wiz kick. So once they're conditioned to that, their only option is to mash jump. This can potentially lead to very bad situations for them if you read the jump reaction and wait below them or under a platform with a punish. And all of this doesn't just apply to Ness BTW, just not multi jump characters, obviously.

So while your original plan didn't pan out it has gotten me thinking about this for elaborate kill setups.

 

[Blobface]

So after labbing Air Choke, I think we might have some legitimately good option coverage on characters that get hit by D-Tilt on both their getup rolls. All you need to do is buffer a crouch in the direction you think they might go and you might be able to effectively react to whether they standard getup or getup attack, allowing you to cover 3 directions at a time. My hope that reacting to the boolean motion (or lack thereof) of a characters body is far faster than other sorts of more nuanced reaction.

I really hope this is reasonable to perform. This combo does a hefty 28% and puts them in a juggle situation and can kill and works on a large portion of the cast.

 

[Kyogokudo]

Here's the list of moves that will hit an opponent hanging on the ledge with no invulnerability.

Spoiler: Dtilt

Spoiler: Down angled fsmash

Spoiler: Dash attack

Spoiler: Usmash

Spoiler: Aerial choke

Spoiler: Ftilt

Spoiler: Dsmash/Jab

...

 

[Theosmeo]

Here's the list of moves that will hit an opponent hanging on the ledge with no invulnerability.

Spoiler: Dtilt

Spoiler: Down angled fsmash

Spoiler: Dash attack

Spoiler: Usmash

Spoiler: Ftilt

Spoiler: Dsmash/Jab

...

Useful!

ALSO HOLEY MOLEY IT'S SO WELL ORGANIZED

 

[Alter Requiem]

>gets hit by jab at ledge

I'm dying.

 

[MGK]

Thanks for the info Kyogokudo, there is another one that charizard and not sure if anyone else gets hit by but you can aerial flame choke which leads into a ganoncide. Poor Zard.

 

[mgleed]

Here's the list of moves that will hit an opponent hanging on the ledge with no invulnerability.

Spoiler: Dtilt

Spoiler: Down angled fsmash

Spoiler: Dash attack

Spoiler: Usmash

Spoiler: Ftilt

Spoiler: Dsmash/Jab

...

This is great. Do you happen to know if anyone gets knocked off by WK?

 

[Alter Requiem]

This is great. Do you happen to know if anyone gets knocked off by WK?

if i had to guess, it would probably only be dk and/or zard. the hitbox is comparable to ftilt in terms of height

 

[Theosmeo]

Realizing dash attack is A) active for 10 frames and B) a kill confirm at high % and C) it's faster than human reaction time means it's super useful for predicting the end of someone's invincibility and destroying their stock for it

 

[Litany]

Would Flame Choke work? I'm not sure if it's actually useful, but...