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The thing is i never do stuff like this...and i really need to start doing it..
Things like just rinning of the stage and doing a Uair or Fair...
Let me tell you a sweet thing to do though when they recovering of stage and the straight level with the stage.
Run and do a wizard kick its enough to kill em or even more devasting if they are at the low end on percent after the wizard kick use your double jump for a quick second and Uair after the wizkick hits em you travel with em and just Uair them and UpB is enough for you to grab the lesge.
I have beat Lil macs like instantly with this.
Seeing how much people actually fear the Volcano Kick is just too much fun. Very often when I use it, people get panic and either hold shield, start to roll around like crazy or run away. It's awesome. And the most satisfying thing (in the whole game even) is when they try to block the Volcano Kick, their shield break, do a taunt, reverse Warlock Punch. Disrespect 101%.
But seriously, ya don't mess with the Volcano Kick. You fear it.
So I did some item testing and found some good stuff:
Before I anything keep in mind whether they hold left, right, or remain neutral before drooping out of choke will influence where they land slightly. Also, all items are tossed down.
Anyway...
Pac Man:
Apple- Out of choke, if they hold towards you or remain neutral they'll be hit, popping them up for either a true combo into dair or a pretty tight string into it. This can be a potential zero to death provided they don't react properly(Percent may not give them time to react, unsure.).It works from 0 with room for a tiny bit of percent.
Bell- It can lead into many things out of choke if they remain neutral or hold towards you such as aerials, fsmash, another choke etc.
All other fruit sets them up for dash attacks or choke at lower percents. They best way to grab the majority is full hop airdodge which works for any of them.
Peach:
Mr. Saturn- This is pretty great, it causes a forced get up well into kill percentages, and out of choke. The only way to escape is to hold away, however, this may be a true zero to death combo at any percent except very high(I had it working in the 180s and stopped there.) by doing this at the edge of a stage or platform. Saturns are rare, yes, but should you get ahold of one it can potentially wing you a match now.
Bob omb- Kinda silly but it works out of choke so if she's at ko percent and we're not go for it.
I'd like to mention two more things unrelated to the above, if you'd like to gimp Ness very early jump into his PKT2 and tech the stage to drastically shorten his recovery. The other thing, we can toss items and zdrop out of full hop fair, just like we use specials although we need to catch them with the fair.
So I did some item testing and found some good stuff:
Before I anything keep in mind whether they hold left, right, or remain neutral before drooping out of choke will influence where they land slightly. Also, all items are tossed down.
Anyway...
Pac Man:
Apple- Out of choke, if they hold towards you or remain neutral they'll be hit, popping them up for either a true combo into dair or a pretty tight string into it. This can be a potential zero to death provided they don't react properly(Percent may not give them time to react, unsure.).It works from 0 with room for a tiny bit of percent.
Bell- It can lead into many things out of choke if they remain neutral or hold towards you such as aerials, fsmash, another choke etc.
All other fruit sets them up for dash attacks or choke at lower percents. They best way to grab the majority is full hop airdodge which works for any of them.
Peach:
Mr. Saturn- This is pretty great, it causes a forced get up well into kill percentages, and out of choke. The only way to escape is to hold away, however, this may be a true zero to death combo at any percent except very high(I had it working in the 180s and stopped there.) by doing this at the edge of a stage or platform. Saturns are rare, yes, but should you get ahold of one it can potentially wing you a match now.
Bob omb- Kinda silly but it works out of choke so if she's at ko percent and we're not go for it.
I'd like to mention two more things unrelated to the above, if you'd like to gimp Ness very early jump into his PKT2 and tech the stage to drastically shorten his recovery. The other thing, we can toss items and zdrop out of full hop fair, just like we use specials although we need to catch them with the fair.
Nice, Opana - I've tested a lot of MU-related items as well.
Note that you can still hit Pacman if he DIs out if you Studderstep DToss. (Not Jump Canceled Dtoss).
I haven't tested the customs, I only really have dorfs and a few others. The saturn lock can be teched but I figured it'd be useful either if they can't tech or if they miss a tech for a guaranteed smash.
We can knock anyone off the platform into an untechable fall at any percent with semi spike uair. It has to be the semi spike angle though, even if it's still the weak hit. Full hop uair with perfect timing hits Diddy and autocancels on the platform, and for others you need to double jump like Sheik but definitely doable. At really high percents they'll actually slide far enough that we can hit them or they go off the stage though.
It's possible to run off dair from bf's low plats although it's pretty difficult, you need to run off and immediately dair without fast falling. This is done by lightly holding down, it can be used after the above but you'll need some good tech skill.
I have a sort of read based chain of grabbing I do although not actually chain grabbing if that makes sense. I use Uthrow, then cover their landing with Choke, followed by successfully reading their action and Uthrowing again. I've done this 4 times in a row so far and it's a pretty good damage racking series of reads.
Dsmash, if hit with the first foot directly and not at the toes or towards the leg, can put them close to you at low percents if they're heavy. If they hit the ground and don't tech, we can Uair a forced get up.
By standing at the very edge, as in it shows the about to fall off animation, we can turnaround and dtilt someone who uses a normal get up to put them behind us. This can lead into a bair or uair, or maybe even a footstool->wizkick.
Moves that can lead to a footstool with slow rezction/bad di/good reads:
-Dair
-Usmash
-Dtilt
-Dthrow
-Uthrow
-Wizkick Quake
At low percents, Ftilt won't push them off edges due to the semi spike angle but Jab will due to it's more horizontal angle.
Uair autocanceled on to bf's low plats at mid percents can lead to a wizkick follow up.
Some of these should probably go in the tricks thread but it's hard to navigate efficiently on the Wii U.
Ganondorf's an amazing planker. You should try focusing your entire game style on trying to get people to chase you at the edge, and anticipating with baits and punishes.
Ye, Ganon is deadly, and, actually really fast around the ledges.
Feel free to tell us more about it, Kalm. I'm sure you know stuff I haven't really thought of.
There are some characters I'm a bit afraid of when it comes to planking though - Captain Falcon is one.
His Utilt and Dtilt can hit you from miles away.
There are some characters I'm a bit afraid of when it comes to planking though - Captain Falcon is one.
His Utilt and Dtilt can hit you from miles away.
i'm also really careful w/ the marios. can't remember if cape renews ledge invincibility but it's still always going to be scary. but fludd definitely doesn't so all mario has to do is then walk up to the ledge and dsmash or cape depending on our height. heck, mario can even fair spike ppl off the ledge from onstage. rob and rosaluma would prob not be very wise either simply because of their dair disjoint and luma.
I try and play the fastest dorf I can and assumed everyone did this after seeing the frame data but figured I'd share anyway. After seeing ZeRo fast falling his Diddy fairs I've started fast falling my Uairs. I fast fall off platforms, wizkick at non lagging heights(in moderation), shield canceling dashes, non crouching dtilts, run off edge grabs, and most importantly buffer to speed up my game. Buffering turnarounds is so amazing, especially if your move ends the opposite direction and you buffer a turnaround into wizkick. Many things are good out of buffered turnarounds though like tilts and grabs too which I'm sure some know.
Also here's an interesting tip for Delfino, before the main platform lands jump off, like early enough where you're on the ground but appearing as a bubble in the bottom blast line. It puts you in a very advantageous position below them.
Another thing,, some of you may know about air dodging into a ledge while facing it allows you to slid off the edge rather than suffer lag. Well, I recently did this accidentally and think it could have use, doing this off a high enough platform to go immediately into an air wizkick to simultaneously avoid attacks and either attack or reposition ourselves. I did this at town and city today accidentally and got in a better position at the ledge.
Last thing, this sounds super gimmicky and it is but it may have use. We can kill off the ducks at dh(they extend the active frames of dair too I believe) and use utilt while rising on the dog platform. I need to test this but I think it can at least hit some shields or bigger characters while avoiding them, and while this can most definitely back fire I try and consider every option and felt the need to share anyway lol.
I want to make a guide on edgeguarding and while it is simple to explain situations where tools work, I don't have a good way to make visuals myself meaning I will want to do a recording session with a friend. Also I want suggestions as to what things people want explained, whether it's execution, matchups, stage specifics, you name it.
I want to make a guide on edgeguarding and while it is simple to explain situations where tools work, I don't have a good way to make visuals myself meaning I will want to do a recording session with a friend. Also I want suggestions as to what things people want explained, whether it's execution, matchups, stage specifics, you name it.
I feel content in trumping personally, not only for the trump itself but for those who know they can buffer a ledge option I can essentially bait a 50/50 ledge hop or ledge roll just by dash at the ledge without grabbing it. To cover that 1 frame though I'd suggest a long lasting hitbox like nair or maybe even air wizkick.
I've gotten down ledge hop wizkick past that ledge fairly well and think it's an interesting mix up. If you're above them many expect dair or some other aerial and air dodge, which this punishes. In my combo highlight vid I stage spiked a Bowser doing this.
I tested his aerials for disjoints quick using bumpers in training mode (shoutout to @TheReflexWonder
) and found the following.
N-air has no clear disjoint
U-air has a disjoint similar in size to Ganon's D-tilt disjoint all the way around
D-air has a slight disjoint from his shins to his feet, though technically, it has a way bigger hitbox that isn't even touching him, especially horizontally but that can't be obviously tested with bumpers.
F-air and B-air are 100% disjointed. His fist just passes through the bumper.
If you want to test hitbox sizes, set a second controller in Training Mode to Mega Man and put an item in his hand (Metal Blade or whatever). Mega Man has no Wait animation, and holding an item prevents your character from doing his idle poses.
Ryu seems to be pretty good for us. Tipman bops him right out of his Side B, and without it, his recovery is terrible. Hadouken is a sub-par projectile (we can charge through the red version with Dash Attack) and a lot of stuff he does is punishable. And to top it off, he has relatively short undisjointed range.
With that said, I was just trying this stuff out on level 9 Ryu, an absolute masterpiece of AI that knows only how to Hadouken. I have a pretty good grip of what we can do to him, but his capabilities are unknown. Even for now.
Lucas seems pretty doable so far. Ftilt is very good against him since the pull back animation Ganon does counters some approaches you could force Lucas into (dash grab).
Ganondorf's range really seems to help him against the Ryu matchup.
Even thought we have yet to find out Ryu's true combo potential, Ganondorf really seems to not have a hard time against him at all.
Now that customs are legal, I should probably bring up d throw to WDK.
D throw to WDK is one of Ganon's only true combos. It works on the entire roster, but some floaties aren't "truly" comboed by it.
Here are some characters and percentages:
Wizard's Drop Kick
Works on: The entire roster. Yes, even floaties. The angle of WDK is perfect for comboing out of down throw.
True? Yes (on more than half the roster :D)
Summary:
As I said before, WDK's angle is perfect for comboing out of d throw, and also the low ending lag of it allows for us to punish our opponent's response afterward. (Note that some fast fallers may not be hit by WDK out of D throw at super low percents. It works on them later.) We could not ask for a more perfect move to combo out of d throw in my opinion. It also true combos on a lot of the cast, and at mid/early high percents. This is yet another reason to pray customs are tournament legal, bc WDK greatly increases the prowess of our throw game.
True Combo Percents: : 36-49%
: 26-41%
: 45-53%
: 18-41%
: 38-71%
:10-42%
: 43-66%
: 59-71%
: 27-46%
: 26-64%
: 35-47%
: 47-50%
: 21-63%
: 28-69%
: 30-39%
: 27-68%
: 46-71%
: 28-64%
: 17-40%
: 72-85%
: 18-65%
: 18-64%
: 24-63%
: 23-65%
: 18-57%
: 45-70
: 3-27%
: 29-59%
: 31-70%
: 54-57%
: 27-44%
: 45-72%
: 19-49%
: 19-39%
: 36-49%
: 28-68
: 27-67
: 37-56%
: 28-62%
: 45-83%
: 35-56%
I've tested all these in training. Might need to reconfirm as these were pre-patch.
The reason WDK is great as a D throw combo is twofold. For one, WDK has barely any end lag, making it very hard to punish. For another, the angle of WDK is perfect for hitting characters as they fly up from D throw. This allows D throw to WDK to work even on floaties (though it isn't a true combo).
Personally I think this is a really solid option and that it should be explored more. What think, guys?
D-throw Dropkick is meh. A grand total of 14% (or maybe 16% if you're lucky). No reason to do this if you're close to the ledge, as the position advantage is then worse than F-throw, and if your opponent gets tricked into DIing towards you expecting F-throw, you get a free F-air out of D-throw instead in that situation.
Also even if it's not guaranteed, reading their jump and catching them out of it >>> D-throw Dropkick.
Now that customs are legal, I should probably bring up d throw to WDK.
D throw to WDK is one of Ganon's only true combos. It works on the entire roster, but some floaties aren't "truly" comboed by it.
Here are some characters and percentages:
Wizard's Drop Kick
Works on: The entire roster. Yes, even floaties. The angle of WDK is perfect for comboing out of down throw.
True? Yes (on more than half the roster :D)
Summary:
As I said before, WDK's angle is perfect for comboing out of d throw, and also the low ending lag of it allows for us to punish our opponent's response afterward. (Note that some fast fallers may not be hit by WDK out of D throw at super low percents. It works on them later.) We could not ask for a more perfect move to combo out of d throw in my opinion. It also true combos on a lot of the cast, and at mid/early high percents. This is yet another reason to pray customs are tournament legal, bc WDK greatly increases the prowess of our throw game.
True Combo Percents: : 36-49%
: 26-41%
: 45-53%
: 18-41%
: 38-71%
:10-42%
: 43-66%
: 59-71%
: 27-46%
: 26-64%
: 35-47%
: 47-50%
: 21-63%
: 28-69%
: 30-39%
: 27-68%
: 46-71%
: 28-64%
: 17-40%
: 72-85%
: 18-65%
: 18-64%
: 24-63%
: 23-65%
: 18-57%
: 45-70
: 3-27%
: 29-59%
: 31-70%
: 54-57%
: 27-44%
: 45-72%
: 19-49%
: 19-39%
: 36-49%
: 28-68
: 27-67
: 37-56%
: 28-62%
: 45-83%
: 35-56%
I've tested all these in training. Might need to reconfirm as these were pre-patch.
The reason WDK is great as a D throw combo is twofold. For one, WDK has barely any end lag, making it very hard to punish. For another, the angle of WDK is perfect for hitting characters as they fly up from D throw. This allows D throw to WDK to work even on floaties (though it isn't a true combo).
Personally I think this is a really solid option and that it should be explored more. What think, guys?
Yes! The edges of the stage are tilted as well, so you can auto cancel DAirs while short hopping towards the ledge.
The entire stage itself also tilts, so if you are aware of the tilt, you can auto cancel your DAirs wherever! Not to mention that DJ DAirs can be auto cancel when landing on a platform, creating great pressure and setting up kills near 40% without rage.
I'll make a video later, but has anyone experienced this before? I Flame Choked my friend at the edge and she didn't grab the ledge as per usual. It just spiked her. Most disrespectful thing I've ever seen. I felt like I was Scar, and her Mufasa.
I'll make a video later, but has anyone experienced this before? I Flame Choked my friend at the edge and she didn't grab the ledge as per usual. It just spiked her. Most disrespectful thing I've ever seen. I felt like I was Scar, and her Mufasa.
Perhaps she was inputting a fast fall by accident? I believe that makes you not grab the edge. That's the only explanation I can think of. I hope I'm wrong though, as this sounds really fun to pull off.
So with the new Nair buff we can do some cool new things with it.
We can hit shorter characters with FF sourspot Nair (the 8% hitbox i think) & follow up with stuff (managed to get D-tilt from mid-% until around 80%, U-air at around 100% securing kills, also credit to A2ZOMG
for finding that!).
In general i think Nair will be a really good edgeguarding because the 2nd hit is so strong now, the fact that it lasts for so long will help against air dodging too.
Perhaps she was inputting a fast fall by accident? I believe that makes you not grab the edge. That's the only explanation I can think of. I hope I'm wrong though, as this sounds really fun to pull off.
Been messing around with the footstool mechanic, I can see some potential using this as Ganon. People know about the D-Air > Footstool > Sourspot Up-air when they land (the one that does 6%). Although this doesn't look true, Replacing Sourspot Up-air to Down B in the air looks like a kill confirm (if you get the spike hitbox) when you are near the ledge. Has to be done immediately and works only on some characters. (DDD doesn't work) You also have to be facing towards the stage or else, there's a possibility for SDing if you mash your jumps to get the footstool.
Need some advice. I was playing against this Lucas who literally drove me insane in the end. He was actually quite good, but he played like a Lucas I wansn't used to. He spaced like mad with PK Fire. He would run forward, roll back or jump back and always spit out either PK Fire or his areal teather grab. I tried to run towards him and perfect shileld, but even so, the times he used his teather grab he would just land and grab me or Jab me or whatever. I couldn't do a thing. Or, I could obviously, but I wasn't able to. And he would mix in some SH Nairs and Fairs. I tried to block, I tried to Wizfoot him on reads, tried to Flame Choke him - nothing worked. If I Wizkicked he always shielded. If I flamechocked, he waited and rolled backwards before punishing. Then he would continue to space and approach with PK Fire and the snake. In the end I got so frustrated I actually threw the controller on the floor.
Personally with that type of player I actually suggest stalling out a match just to observe a player's playstyle.
Do it long enough in a match and you start to "see" things.
Other then that know with Ganon you get punished on stuff because you commit to your attacks, with that said look for attacks Lucas HAS to commit to and punish accordingly.
Ok, so I was messing around with the tech timing on Flame Choke, and I can definitely confirm it is not a 40 frame window because they can't buffer a tech until they're launched out of his hand. If you press shield before you enter the air, you'll miss the tech.
Based on my testing with 1/4th speed frame advance*, the time between being released and hitting the ground is around 5-7 frames. This is a much smaller window than I thought, and on top of that the sound effect and explosion happen significantly before the actual release, throwing off timing.
My question is, how reasonable is it to expect people to always tech Choke at a high level? Have any of you ever had someone who teched every choke? And above all else, at a high level, should Ganons assume techs will be missed or should they try to punish teching as best as they can?
*I can't perfectly test the amount of frames, but I tested how many light presses I needed for a character to hit the ground after being released from frame choke (first sighting of tumble animation), then compared it to the amount of presses needed for Ganon's Frame 21 F-smash to hit. Choke took 3-4 presses, while F-smash took 12+, indicating that the amount of frames between being released and hitting the ground is about 5-7 Frames. Leaning towards 5 for characters that we have less frame advantage against, leaning towards 7 for characters we have more frame advantage against.
My friend and I aren't high level by any means but after playing against my ganon for awhile he seems to be able to tech around the majority of my chokes, to the point where I'm surprised if he doesn't tech.
: 36-49%
