Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Opana]

Flame Chain hits everyone on the ledge except:

Ganondorf
Palutena
Greninja
Sonic

Flame Chain hits Captain Falcon, but only with a weak hit which actually may be better as it has very high knockback like other multihit moves when not all hits connect.

It hits Bowser but due to his super armor he isn't knocked away, not even by the final hit. I tested these all myself.

 

[adom4]

Flame Chain hits everyone on the ledge except:

Ganondorf
Palutena
Greninja
Sonic

Flame Chain hits Captain Falcon, but only with a weak hit which actually may be better as it has very high knockback like other multihit moves when not all hits connect.

It hits Bowser but due to his super armor he isn't knocked away, not even by the final hit. I tested these all myself.

Thanks for the info, i didn't even know it could hit on the ledge.
BTW, in what match ups do people here think flame chain is superior to choke?
The only matchups i can think are Rosaluma & maybe Samus.

 

[Opana]

Yeah np.

For one, I think it's a good alternative to a MM who skillfully plays defense, it's hard to get in with the choke for me so WDK is usually my go to option which can put them in a position to get hit by chain. If they ledge camp lots their invincibility frames will be gone which makes this easier.

Also you can't fall off no matter how close to the ledge you are unless you're facing away from the stage doing that about to fall animation.

 

[adom4]

Yeah np.

For one, I think it's a good alternative to a MM who skillfully plays defense, it's hard to get in with the choke for me so WDK is usually my go to option which can put them in a position to get hit by chain. If they ledge camp lots their invincibility frames will be gone which makes this easier.

Also you can't fall off no matter how close to the ledge you are unless you're facing away from the stage doing that about to fall animation.

I don't know, we have good follow ups on MM after chokes so it's hard to give it up.
also kinda off topic but any chance you want to go a few rounds?

 

[MezzoMe]

Flame Chain has a semi-spike trajectory, so it can as well tech-chase, though some options might get harder to punish, but it's as well guaranteed space conquered faster than any other in Ganon's arsenal, not to mention that a point blank it can do up to 30%, and at higher percentages, it can easily set up for a broken Utilt edgeguard, that's how I cleared Event mode on Hard whetever I could choose character.

 

[Kyzon Xin]

Pro-Tip: Don't use flame chain on Lylat towards a down tilting ledge. You don't actually stop there.

 

[Opana]

I don't know, we have good follow ups on MM after chokes so it's hard to give it up.
also kinda off topic but any chance you want to go a few rounds?

It was hard to land the choke for me personally and he was hard to read to I went chain for a slightly better result.

Yeah next time we're both free let's play some games, reminds me I still need to play Ray.

 

[adom4]

It was hard to land the choke for me personally and he was hard to read to I went chain for a slightly better result.

Yeah next time we're both free let's play some games, reminds me I still need to play Ray.

Honestly i think sometimes it's good to go with chain just to mess with your opponents, it's such a different move than choke it can help if they don't know much about it.
I still haven't found a good use for flame wave in singles though, the range & speed kill this move.

 

[Opana]

Actually I use it to punish whiffed moves, I think it's disjointed enough to hit through some moves too.

 

[Opana]

Another use for flame chain I've used to stage spike:

Run off, chain at the ledge, hold down to have the multi hitting hitbox cover the ledge. The strong hit stage spikes, I've done it in matches not just in practice.

Also, in case it hasn't been mentioned, the very end of WDK still carries the hitbox while having such low ending lag. This can lead into some things like choke or dtilt at low percentages. Also I can't stress how usrful just knowing how to turnaround is for using this move to it's fullest, not walking or running but simply turning around.

 

[Kyzon Xin]

I need to record it when I pull it off again, but I've been doing WDKs with no jump at the beginning. Just a horizontal quick version with the start up cancelled.

Anyone know how to do this?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I need to record it when I pull it off again, but I've been doing WDKs with no jump at the beginning. Just a horizontal quick version with the start up cancelled.

Anyone know how to do this?

Seems stage dependent from all the testing I've done. Only thing off the top of my head I haven't yet tested is interactions with knockback and shield pushback before starting WDK.

Also in case if nobody knew, Ganondorf and Little Mac can reach the tree on Duck Hunt either by using the Dog (hit the ducks in the air to get the Dog to rise where you want) or by ledge jumping + double jump. Knowing this, I actually feel like we don't have to worry about banning Duck Hunt in tournament.

 

[adom4]

I need to record it when I pull it off again, but I've been doing WDKs with no jump at the beginning. Just a horizontal quick version with the start up cancelled.

Anyone know how to do this?

Sometimes when you do WDK out of shield stun it does the kick in a weird angle.

 

[Opana]

@ A2ZOMG I actually realized that about Duck Hunt a day or two ago, posted it in the stage thread I made but should I just post stage info here?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sometimes when you do WDK out of shield stun it does the kick in a weird angle.

Tested and confirmed. Buffering WDK while you are sliding from shield pushback causes the hop to not happen. Also works from windboxes. Basically sliding ground momentum that is not self induced takes priority over the hop animation of WDK and causes you to do a grounded version.

 

[Kyzon Xin]

Tested and confirmed. Buffering WDK while you are sliding from shield pushback causes the hop to not happen. Also works from windboxes. Basically sliding ground momentum that is not self induced takes priority over the hop animation of WDK and causes you to do a grounded version.

Ah, thanks everyone. Very interesting punish option.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ah, thanks everyone. Very interesting punish option.

I think in actual practice, the grounded angled WDK is basically useless when you consider the only situations in which it ever happens and that it's a 20 frame move that only does 9 damage in close range. Sourspot DA outclasses it in basically every situation.

 

[Opana]

I used WDK out of Bowser's default fire breath and launched super high into the air, could be great for escaping the ledge

EDIT: Here's how it works, you need to use WDK at the part of his fire breath that doesn't flinch but deals damage, then you'll go up higher than both your jumps using WDK. Works at any percent, may need to be as close to the flinching hit boxes as you can get though.

 

[Blobface]

Edit: Unfortunately it doesn't work. Characters either bounce too high from the groundbounce or don't go high enough for Ganondorf to properly hit them with D-Air. It might have niche uses if someone is coming from below you, but for the most part, it's ineffective.
With that said, I still say we call D-air --> Footstool --> Tipman jab lock "The Five Boots of Turmoil"

Most of us have seen some of Gungnir's vines where he demonstrates the incredible amount of damage Ganondorf can get off of Footstool --> U-air jablock --> anything. Can you imagine what Ganondorf could do if he had some kind of guaranteed setup for one? Well he might. If you land a D-air on an aerial opponent (possibly off of an airdodge read?), you can footstool people as they bounce off the ground towards you, possibly giving Ganondorf reliable setups for footstools. It only works at fairly specific, low percents, where they bounce off the ground slow enough to footstool, but the kind of things one gets when you combine "free hits" with "Smash 4 Ganon" bring an evil smile to any Dorf's face. If this turns out to be as effective as it might be, it needs it's own name. I personally vouch for The Five Boots of Turmoil (two for the first D-air, two for the footstool, and one for the tipman hit).

 

[jahkzheng]

Hey guys, what would you say is the best option against an approaching Sonic?

I have a hard time reading them since the approach often looks pretty similar and it's really fast of course. I try to shield spin dash approaches and jump over grab or dash attack attempts, although dash attack can catch you surprisingly well. Sonic closes ground so fast though that sometimes I react wrong even if it's clear he's spin dashing or running toward me. They can delay their spin dash approach and get in your head too. It's also a bit hard to regain stage control from the air since he can close in and grab on reaction from just about anywhere on the stage. I try to use nair and dtilt a lot and jab when he's close. I don't often have time to "set up" a pivot ftilt and just throwing out an regular ftilt feels unsafe. I say "set up" because it feels like it requires one relative to Sonic's reactive play. Choke doesn't appear to have priority on spin dash at all or maybe the timing is really narrow. In general, the timing feels really narrow. The amount of time Sonic is in your reach but you're not in his is a very short period of time. Maybe if I had better reaction times I could handle him better, but I think it's as much to do with knowing the matchup and getting the reads. I also realized I don't really have a character I use that counterpicks him. He's pretty great in this game.

Yeah, recently had some trouble with a Sonic I guess, heh. Curious what everyone's thoughts are. I feel like I've read stuff about this here before but I can't remember what was suggested.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Choke and Wizkick can beat Spin Dash if they do it from too far away. Usually I try to shield it and punish his hop with aerials. Pivot grabbing or Nair also can work on reaction if your timing is good. In general against Sonic you have to be mobile without committing too hard to attacks. Your goal as always is to find out what situations he plays more carefully so you can establish your offensive rhythm. If he does a lot of spin dash shield cancels, try to either look to grab him or Usmash in close range. If he goes for grabs, pivot Ftilt and Nair are your friends. Try to spotdodge Homing Attack, which can help you punish it. Most importantly try to not do anything really unsafe when Sonic's back is to the ledge. Even if he doesn't kill you with Bthrow, his edgeguarding is scary and WDK cannot help you due to facing backwards.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Something interesting i found is that ganon's side b can combo into up smash if the opponent doesn't tech vs certain characters.

 

[jahkzheng]

Choke and Wizkick can beat Spin Dash if they do it from too far away. Usually I try to shield it and punish his hop with aerials. Pivot grabbing or Nair also can work on reaction if your timing is good. In general against Sonic you have to be mobile without committing too hard to attacks. Your goal as always is to find out what situations he plays more carefully so you can establish your offensive rhythm. If he does a lot of spin dash shield cancels, try to either look to grab him or Usmash in close range. If he goes for grabs, pivot Ftilt and Nair are your friends. Try to spotdodge Homing Attack, which can help you punish it. Most importantly try to not do anything really unsafe when Sonic's back is to the ledge. Even if he doesn't kill you with Bthrow, his edgeguarding is scary and WDK cannot help you due to facing backwards.

Thanks A2. I'll keep this all in mind. Hope I can utilize in practice and not just in theory.

 

[Blobface]

I've realized something truly scary about Dark Fists. It both drags characters upward and hits vertically.

Ok so there are two other killing Up-b's that "drag" the other character to their apex: ZSS's Booster Kick (that is it's name right?) and Little Mac's Tornado Uppercut. Booster Kick knocks horizontally, so there's not really many ways to capitalize on the dragging. Tornado Uppercut not only doesn't go as far in the air as it does on the ground, but Little Mac has no way to actually land Tornado Uppercut in mid-air to begin with.

Ganondorf however, can land Dark Fists' first hit in midair and it knocks vertically. What this means is, if you read an airdodge, you can Dark Fists someone and kill them below 40% (results may vary). The only trouble is getting them up in the air at that low of a %.

And do you know what that means?

Ganondorf's Ultimate Patty Cake Attack actually has a use now!

(By which I mean U-throw)

 

[Xinc]

I've realized something truly scary about Dark Fists. It both drags characters upward and hits vertically.

Ok so there are two other killing Up-b's that "drag" the other character to their apex: ZSS's Booster Kick (that is it's name right?) and Little Mac's Tornado Uppercut. Booster Kick knocks horizontally, so there's not really many ways to capitalize on the dragging. Tornado Uppercut not only doesn't go as far in the air as it does on the ground, but Little Mac has no way to actually land Tornado Uppercut in mid-air to begin with.

Ganondorf however, can land Dark Fists' first hit in midair and it knocks vertically. What this means is, if you read an airdodge, you can Dark Fists someone and kill them below 40% (results may vary). The only trouble is getting them up in the air at that low of a %.

And do you know what that means?

Ganondorf's Ultimate Patty Cake Attack actually has a use now!

(By which I mean U-throw)

Patty Cake, Patty Cake, GANON SMASH
Hit your opponent as hard as you can!


Realized something about tech rolls and Choke. Not sure if you guys can confirm or not, but Little Mac's tech roll in place and away will still get hit by down tilt out of Choke

 

[adom4]

Patty Cake, Patty Cake, GANON SMASH
Hit your opponent as hard as you can!


Realized something about tech rolls and Choke. Not sure if you guys can confirm or not, but Little Mac's tech roll in place and away will still get hit by down tilt out of Choke

Can confirm, Bowser & Mii Brawler also get hit by D-tilt if they tech roll away.

 

[Blobface]

Sometimes I get annoyed at how good Sheik is against Ganon. It almost seems she was entirely designed to kill Ganondorf.

But then I remember Ganon vs Mac. Poor Mac. It's like every single move Ganon does is designed to end Mac's boxing career. Flame Choke covers all of Little Mac's landing options, Ganon can actually outspace Little Mac on the ground, and Ganon's edgeguarding is top notch.

I can't wait till we cover Little Mac in the matchup thread. 11:-1 Ganon's favor!

Also seriously, what is U-throw supposed to be? He tosses them up in the air above him and you wonder what he's about to do. Will he attack them with some kind of dark energy? Kick them into the sky? Nope, he just goes "meh" and casually shoves them into the air.

 

[Kyogokudo]

Sometimes I get annoyed at how good Sheik is against Ganon. It almost seems she was entirely designed to kill Ganondorf.

But then I remember Ganon vs Mac. Poor Mac. It's like every single move Ganon does is designed to end Mac's boxing career. Flame Choke covers all of Little Mac's landing options, Ganon can actually outspace Little Mac on the ground, and Ganon's edgeguarding is top notch.

I can't wait till we cover Little Mac in the matchup thread. 11:-1 Ganon's favor!.

It seems I need to fight a lot more Macs, because for me it would be 50:50 or even 55:45 for him. He will get insanely fast in Ganon's face, and most of Ganon's attacks are too slow to beat his approachs. And that freaking KO punch, with guaranted set-ups like with dtilt. I find it hard to get back to neutral once Dorf took a lot of hits. Mac's fsmash send us to a bad angle too, so it can kill quite early unless we use customs. Talking about customs, I heard LM gets some good ones and a much better recovery, is it true? I also have troubles gimping him efficiently with his counter, but that's just lack of experience and Mac is the best sandbag for dair anyways.

 

[Blobface]

First of all, on his customs, Little Mac's recovery is better against edgeguarding because of Grounding Blow. It actually gives him the ability to vary his recovery. Aside from that, he doesn't get much, and it actually becomes harder for him to recover from F-Tilt.

As for the matchup, bear in mind that Little Mac is the one that's approaching, since Ganondorf outranges Mac. Space him out heavily. While Little Mac has fairly long range for a small character, he doesn't outrange Ganondorf.

Secondly, the moment you land a hit on Little Mac, Flame Choke. Flame Choke over and over and over again. Literally nothing Little Mac can do will beat it. Airdodge? Gets hit anyway. Counter? Flame Choke is a grab. Aerial? Don't make me laugh. If he tries to cheese you with midair counters, you can delay your U-air and F-air or even go for an Aerudo. Counter is the only real winning proposition for Mac in the air, so even if you guess wrong and he doesn't counter, you still have a chance to hit him.

Lastly, F-tilt. Yes, this move gets its own spot for this matchup. Ganondorf can boot Mac into a position where he is forced to recover from like, 40-50%, and at that point, Mac is doomed completely. Even if he counters, he'll drop too low to get back. Speaking of counter, due to Mac's awful aerial acceleration, if he tries to counter you to recover, you can literally do nothing and laugh as he falls to his doom. F-tilt is so good that you should almost never use F-Smash even. Use it off of reads of course, but other than that, F-tilt is the only kill option you'll need.

The most important thing about this matchup however, is that Mac basically can't take a single hit against Ganondorf. Put simply, if you land a hit on Little Mac, he's dead. Once he's in disadvantage against Dorf, the only way out should be death. While it is very difficult to actually land that hit due to Mac's speed, all you need is one read and he's done.

 

[Xinc]

First of all, on his customs, Little Mac's recovery is better against edgeguarding because of Grounding Blow. It actually gives him the ability to vary his recovery. Aside from that, he doesn't get much, and it actually becomes harder for him to recover from F-Tilt.

As for the matchup, bear in mind that Little Mac is the one that's approaching, since Ganondorf outranges Mac. Space him out heavily. While Little Mac has fairly long range for a small character, he doesn't outrange Ganondorf.

Secondly, the moment you land a hit on Little Mac, Flame Choke. Flame Choke over and over and over again. Literally nothing Little Mac can do will beat it. Airdodge? Gets hit anyway. Counter? Flame Choke is a grab. Aerial? Don't make me laugh. If he tries to cheese you with midair counters, you can delay your U-air and F-air or even go for an Aerudo. Counter is the only real winning proposition for Mac in the air, so even if you guess wrong and he doesn't counter, you still have a chance to hit him.

Lastly, F-tilt. Yes, this move gets its own spot for this matchup. Ganondorf can boot Mac into a position where he is forced to recover from like, 40-50%, and at that point, Mac is doomed completely. Even if he counters, he'll drop too low to get back. Speaking of counter, due to Mac's awful aerial acceleration, if he tries to counter you to recover, you can literally do nothing and laugh as he falls to his doom. F-tilt is so good that you should almost never use F-Smash even. Use it off of reads of course, but other than that, F-tilt is the only kill option you'll need.

The most important thing about this matchup however, is that Mac basically can't take a single hit against Ganondorf. Put simply, if you land a hit on Little Mac, he's dead. Once he's in disadvantage against Dorf, the only way out should be death. While it is very difficult to actually land that hit due to Mac's speed, all you need is one read and he's done.

Can confirm. Also, it appears at when both players are at zero, Ganondorf can do flame choke to down tilt, to flame choke to down tilt. Only way to escape it is to jump.

 

[Blobface]

Can confirm. Also, it appears at when both players are at zero, Ganondorf can do flame choke to down tilt, to flame choke to down tilt. Only way to escape it is to jump.

I played A2's Little Mac today, and I'd say it's 6:4 our favor, maybe even 65:35. And it's pretty much entirely because of D-tilt, Flame Choke, and F-tilt. Those are literally the only moves you need against Little Mac. Flame Choke and D-tilt are all you need for damage racking, and F-tilt is all you need for kills. (This is all massive hyperbole, but you get the idea)

In fact...

Choose your own adventure: Mac edition
You are fighting Ganondorf in neutral. What do you do?
Dash Attack

Spoiler

This isn't For Glory. You get grabbed, Ganon is in advantage now

Dash Grab

Spoiler

How do you grab with boxing gloves anyway? D-tilt outspaces you, Ganon is in advantage

Walk forward and use D-tilt

Spoiler

Your D-tilt isn't good enough. Outspaced, Ganon is in advantage

Walk forward and use F-tilt

Spoiler

Ganondorf boots you right in the toe with D-tilt, Ganon is in advantage

Side-B off the stage

Spoiler

The Ganondorf player's controller suddenly bursts into flames, allowing you to easily win with your second stock.

Ganon has the advantage! What do you do?
Airdodge

Spoiler

Flame Choke, D-tilt, Ganon has advantage

Aerial

Spoiler

Did you forget you were playing Little Mac? Flame Choke, D-tilt, Ganon has advantage

Counter

Spoiler

Flame Choke is a grab. D-tilt, Ganon has advantage

Fast fall

Spoiler

Not fast enough. Flame Choke, D-tilt, Ganon has advantage

Double Jump

Spoiler

Ganon U-airs you, launches you offstage without your double jump, and you die. Game over

What do you mean I stole this from Locke 06 this is completely original.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Ganon wins against Mac about 55/45, personally. It's a pretty challenging matchup that does require some thought once they space D-tilt correctly and confirm the right combos from it. I'm really bad at using Mac D-tilt because I don't know all the character specific interactions Mac has out of D-tilt.

Also worth keeping in mind that his D-air is a 7 frame spike. While you can usually either hug the stage or U-air him out of this if you have space, it's not hard for Mac to D-air you out of Up-B if neither of those options are applicable, and even as a relatively weak hit, it can be strong against Ganon's recovery.

That being said, Flame Choke and F-tilt both are really good against Mac, so we kinda steamroll him in risk/reward as long as we don't do anything that can be predictably KO punched.

Also, Mac in my opinion wants Guard Breaker, not Grounding Blow against Ganondorf. Ganondorf doesn't really air camp quite to the point where Grounding Blow's aerial variance makes a difference that Up-B doesn't already cover decently. Guard Breaker with the armor frames is the superior recovery option against Ganon who is able to gimp Mac with lingering aerials.

 

[Blobface]

Would that technically make this a matchup where you actually want to take Dark Dive? It would ignore the armor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Would that technically make this a matchup where you actually want to take Dark Dive? It would ignore the armor.

That's actually a very good point, especially since Dark Fists in contrast doesn't have any hitbox for the middle part of the animation which also makes it easier for Mac to edgeguard offstage while the grab from Dark Dive in contrast can sometimes protect you better. Though armoring Mac out of his F-smash is something to consider as well.

Random tip for Mac matchup: try to punish Mac's landing with D-smash. This is a good way to get him offstage since the first hit of D-smash does really low damage, making you less vulnerable to taking a massive hit from Mac's counter.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'd like to add that Ganon acts very weird when hit by Mac's Ftilt sometimes.
Ganon's animation when hit by the first hit can often avoid the second hit, which allows for a free punish with Dtilt/Ftilt, etc...

 

[adom4]

Only jab works against Mewtwo if he doesn't tech a choke, D-tilt hits if he tech rolls away (thanks to @ Z1GMA ).

 

[Blobface]

Ganon's tippered Jab is actually a kill move now, and if it doesn't kill it's trajectory sets up edgeguards. It's good if you want to use something faster than F-tilt.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ganon's tippered Jab is actually a kill move now, and if it doesn't kill it's trajectory sets up edgeguards. It's good if you want to use something faster than F-tilt.

It also outranges Ftilt slightly and covers aerial approaches unlike Dtilt. The buff didn't address Ganon's lack of a fast CQC move, but the increased Jab reward does make it more usable, and its range and slightly better frame data make it more usable now that the reward gap between it and F/Dtilt has been reduced.

 

[jmanup85]

I looked through and found that Dair has transcendent priority. I noticed something was up with the move the minute I totally stuffed Mewtwo's Usmash and sent him to his untimely demise with the stomp of destiny. Shoutout to @Big O for that work he did getting that info.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You can clank out mewtwo's full charge shadow ball with bair and fsmash.