Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Sykkamorre]

doesn't activate at all? is it because you're invincible? O_o

*are you sure that what you're describing isn't just how the move acts when you're too far from it? i was doing it on stage too, and ledge-clinging didn't seem to affect it differently. this was a brief test though.

Sorry for the double post but:

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mwa ha ha^

 

[Hi-Hatz]

lol i was somewhat misunderstanding your original post. i see now though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Big O I was doing lab work comparing Dark Dive and Dark Fists. Dark Dive is noticeably better as an out of shield option. Consider the range of Dash Grab, and that's about how far you can reach horizontally with Dark Dive even on short characters. I wouldn't do this as an OOS option at low percents, but I definitely believe there are matchups where the big grab range out of shield can be useful. One of the most common ways to annoy Ganon in a spacing war is crossing him over, and Dark Dive is the most efficient option you have for punishing crossovers. It's faster out of shield than Jab I think, and does more damage (11).

Dark Fists you shouldn't be using out of shield to take advantage of the armor frames for countering things because in order for it to connect, your opponent has to be effectively touching you. The 2nd hit as you may be aware is able to miss due to DI. Don't get me wrong, I believe Dark Fists is overall the superior option because it's a safer recovery move because your opponent can't screw you over by stage teching it and also you can kill them if they don't respect the uppercut.

Dark Vault is overall the worst option but can be used for edgeguarding really low recoveries. It gets the worst horizontal distance however, though at least WDK makes up for that. With Dark Vault however, you cannot go as far away from the stage horizontally when edgeguarding, and ironically enough, you also can't even recover high with this move because it kills your horizontal momentum.

@ Z1GMA You might have mentioned this a while ago, but I have been practicing Dash away -> pivot F-smash as a techchase option for getup attacks, and I think this has a lot of potential in hard read situations. The other thing I think which is situational but has uses is Foxtrot -> Dashdance -> Dash Attack. It's obviously a bit more powerful with faster run speed, but Ganondorf at least has a strong DA which covers a lot of distance, and using a Dashdance after Foxtrot is a very efficient way to turn around.

Another thing that people might have noticed is that you cannot immediately input a turnaround except with F-tilt during D-tilt IASA frames. However you can input a dashdance or a pivot grab. This seems universally useful for punishing inward rolls.

 

[Z1GMA]

I bought a new Capture Card today, so I made this vid to celebrate.
It shows some basic, reliable stuff, as well as some creative, murderous stuff.
I put it in here instead of the Video Thread since this is partly a Guide Thread.

Ganon has more combos, but these are all for now. Might do part 2, 3, etc, later on.

Although Kalm's favourite, Dthrow > iDA, is the most reliable option after Dthrow - Dthrow > Nair can deal great damage to floatier characters, which wasn't shown in the vid.
Just make sure to perform a Buffered Dash Cancel first.

 

[Opana]

Some amazing stuff there man, I never even considered mid air nair comboing. I hope for more, and I'll do my best to contribute as well.

 

[LiVeR]

Sorry if its already been answered somewhere but..
I saw a vine or gif of ganon doing a DACUS. I could easily dacus with any character in Brawl but I cant do it with anyone in Smash 4 anymore. Is there a different button input or did they patch it out of the game?

 

[the king of murder]

Sorry if its already been answered somewhere but..
I saw a vine or gif of ganon doing a DACUS. I could easily dacus with any character in Brawl but I cant do it with anyone in Smash 4 anymore. Is there a different button input or did they patch it out of the game?

They patched it out. I was really excited to hear that he got a dacus but Sakurai says nope.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In exchange, we got reduced landing lag on all aerials. In particular our N-air only has 18 frames of landing lag, which is low enough for both legitimate combos and spacing safely on shield.

 

[the king of murder]

Never used nair for spacing, gotta try that out. Dacus would be such a bliss for Ganon, though, as it would help his abysmal approach option, unless the reduced landing lag helps our approach?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Never used nair for spacing, gotta try that out. Dacus would be such a bliss for Ganon, though, as it would help his abysmal approach option, unless the reduced landing lag helps our approach?

It does help a lot. You have to be careful with it like all of Ganon's moves, because it NEEDS to be spaced correctly to be safe from shieldgrabs. The majority of tether grabs I believe are still fast enough to punish N-air before you can spotdodge. However when you're outside of shieldgrab range after a well spaced N-air, this puts you in a great position to add more pressure with D-tilt.

Fullhop U-air -> N-air also controls a lot of space during juggles/footsies, and you can catch a lot of people off guard with N-air used in this fashion. You could do this in Brawl, just in Smash 4, this is overall a lot more effective due to the damage and speed buffs to N-air, and it's something your opponent needs to respect. Alternatively, another good way to sometimes sneak in an aerial approach with either B-air or N-air is buffering them after fullhop Airdodge.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Would Hit-Cancelled AWKSpike into B-Reversed AWK count as an AT?

 

[Big O]

Is aerial flame choke still techable? I tried teching it briefly to see what the frame advantage is on tech, and I wasn't able to get the tech working lol (Wii U version).

 

[Xinc]

This just in:

Was playing a few matches of For Glory today. Anyone remember air dodge aerials? Where many characters can short hop air dodge and do an attack to cancel the lag to act as some sort of "parry?" Ganondorf cannot do it short hopped (either that or my timing's really off, but in that case, you would be only able to do it with Nair), but he can do it with nair and bair with a full hop air dodge. This acts as a very good approach option and bypasses an opponent's defending attack once you get into its space with the air dodge. Nair is good for racking up damage and sending them away, especially if they're in front of you. Bair is good for hitting them if they end up behind you.

Also, Ganon's get up attack can stage spike recovering players, interestingly enough. Timing is extremely difficult, though. I'll try to get a video of that up sometime soon.

Thoughts?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I do Fullhop AD a lot personally. Like every other grappler approach, try not to rely on it excessively because it IS telegraphed and good players have the option of outmaneuvering you, or looking for a grab/punish. However it's a great way to get around zoning and force your opponent to play respectfully.

Ray_Kalm I believe was talking about this a while ago.

 

[Z1GMA]

There are a lot of things/mix-ups you can do after a Fullhop AD close to your opponent.
(Yes, Kalm talked about this)

Uair Nair Bair
Land and grab
Air Wizkick
DJ > Anything

 

[Z1GMA]

Flame Wave is hard to spotdodge, especially for fat characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Flame Wave is hard to spotdodge, especially for fat characters.

Good to know. I was actually wondering about that, meaning you should use this less to punish rolls, but it works better for punishing people who try to hold still against Ganon up close.

 

[Z1GMA]

Good to know. I was actually wondering about that, meaning you should use this less to punish rolls, but it works better for punishing people who try to hold still against Ganon up close.

Exactly.

I, too, was wondering about how well it did Vs spotdodging, so I decided to test it with Tonsana.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Something interesting to note is that if you double jump at the edge of the stage, you can use down b and still be able to recover. Could be useful for edgeguarding, although using one of ganon's ariel attacks would most likely be better in this scenario.

 

[WarioWaft]

A lot of the combos I've done have come from actually having my opponent force a direction on their body after I hit them.

One of my favorites to do at 0% was Jab>FTilt>D-B and depending on their weight you can jump up with a Uair and connect.
I have the C-stick set for Tilts instead of Smash attacks and it works wonderfully. Ganon's tilts do as much damage as most characters Smash Attacks. 80+% Ftilt and it's pretty much a guaranteed death whether off screen or can't return (unless you're Greninja or Lucario).

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is really random and minor, but I have a word on U-throw, and when it is actually a good option.

U-throw can be the most useful control option for Ganondorf when you are close to center stage, and your opponent is around ~40% or so, basically before percents where B-throw/F-throw would put your opponent offstage, after percents where D-throw sets up reliable combos.

Especially on a larger stage, if you're slightly on one side of that stage, but your B-throw wouldn't put your opponent offstage, what you can do instead is U-throw. Your opponent will likely DI away from you, which lets you "carry" your opponent to the ledge, and potentially follow up with a juggle as they land.

Most of the time, we know to use D-throw at low percents, and F-throw and B-throw whenever they will put the opponent offstage, U-throw's very high vertical knockback however is also very useful for establishing control in different situations. Use U-throw with the intention of scaring your opponent into moving a certain way before they land, because this throw gives you a lot of space to think things out.

Also, in case nobody was aware, Ganondorf's F-throw is one of the best FFA/anti-Rosalina throws in the game, because as you punch your opponent, anything else that is nearby also gets knocked upwards.

 

[Scraptor]

I really struggle with grabbing i am wiffing a lot and not fast enough out of shield. any tips on improving grabbing?

 

[the king of murder]

I would recommend using pivot grab a lot. It actaully has decent range, is quick and your opponent won't see it coming most of the time. You can use pivot grab as one of your options against someone who rolls towards you(in addition to pivot f-tilt and U-smash).

Because of Ganons horrible grab range, you should bait your opponent into a shield. Make empty jumps towards them, scare your opponent and grab them as you land. That doesnt work with everyone though and your opponent might see it coming if you do it too much so mix your jumps up a little with Fair Wizkick, Nair ect... Ganon has the tools to scare his enemies into hell but you have to use too use them properly to be effective.

Also, I have noticed that I can shieldgrab most of them when my Ganon shields a dash attack.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I really struggle with grabbing i am wiffing a lot and not fast enough out of shield. any tips on improving grabbing?

Empty jumps are a good way to get grabs once you get really confident in your spacing. I personally don't do it enough, but you have to remember that Ganondorf is a character who is very capable of getting his opponent to be afraid of attacking him directly due to the threat of his punishes. Say if your opponent is afraid of attacking you when you do aerials. You can then take advantage of your opponent blocking a lot by then scaring them with an empty jump and grabbing.

A lot of it is experience, and just really getting familiar with spacing. Grabs will feel natural when you establish an offensive rhythm and recognize common spacing situations on the go.

Another very important skill is learning to powershield (something like a spaced aerial that you predict from your opponent) and then dashgrab. This can sometimes be your most efficient punish in high pressure situations.

 

[Scraptor]

Thanks. I will incorporate some more jumping into my game. I do feel a little to grounded. I am just starting to develop my bait game.

 

[Opana]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jgXKCt555s8

Situational but kinda cool.

Also this is more humorous than anything lol

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gjvYrBKVanU

 

[MagiusNecros]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jgXKCt555s8

Situational but kinda cool.

What I would give to have that kind of momentum on Aerudo by itself.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Funny gimmick for sometimes setting up Ganoncide:



__________________________X
Stage.................................Ganon..Opponent

You get a D-throw around ~80-100%. They airdodge the U-air, land on the edge of the stage, you catch them with a Ganoncide.

Pulled this off not long ago on For Glory. This is not a guaranteed followup by any means (the opponent whiffed an aerial), but I liked it a lot when it happened.

 

[adom4]

Funny gimmick for sometimes setting up Ganoncide:



__________________________X
Stage.................................Ganon..Opponent

You get a D-throw around ~80-100%. They airdodge the U-air, land on the edge of the stage, you catch them with a Ganoncide.

Pulled this off not long ago on For Glory. This is not a guaranteed followup by any means (the opponent whiffed an aerial), but I liked it a lot when it happened.

I always wanted to do something like this but it's risky as hell for obvious reasons.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf has very strange properties on his D-air.

If you connect with a frame perfect D-air on an opponent at the last frame possible before landing, you will actually have less landing lag after hitlag, which effectively allows you to pull off all the combos you are familiar with in Brawl. D-air -> Smash tends to work around the 30% range or so as I recall, but only if you time it perfectly.

I don't think this works if your opponent shields. Only if you actually hit, so don't try to do this as an approach, but rather if you can pull this off as a whiff punish or techchase, that can be really powerful. Try this on Charizard for practice (part of his tail is a hurtbox, making it easier to space on him).

This exploit also works with Falco D-air, Falcon Knee, and Bowser Jr. D-air (this one doesn't require timing to pull off). I believe this is a glitch concerning hitlag and landing lag frames.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I always wanted to do something like this but it's risky as hell for obvious reasons.

Well playing Ganondorf is a risk in itself.

 

[Opana]

Ganondorf has very strange properties on his D-air.

If you connect with a frame perfect D-air on an opponent at the last frame possible before landing, you will actually have less landing lag after hitlag, which effectively allows you to pull off all the combos you are familiar with in Brawl. D-air -> Smash tends to work around the 30% range or so as I recall, but only if you time it perfectly.

I don't think this works if your opponent shields. Only if you actually hit, so don't try to do this as an approach, but rather if you can pull this off as a whiff punish or techchase, that can be really powerful. Try this on Charizard for practice (part of his tail is a hurtbox, making it easier to space on him).

This exploit also works with Falco D-air, Falcon Knee, and Bowser Jr. D-air (this one doesn't require timing to pull off). I believe this is a glitch concerning hitlag and landing lag frames.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx_FF-5owgY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OlXn2Zam2XU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yA6oUGfluF8

Can't edit them atm, tried my best to perform the setups well.

 

[MezzoMe]

You can easily cancel the Dair by short-hopping and waiting a little.
Also, at specific percentages, you can combo into Uair, Bair, and the first hit of the Nair against Fox(didn't test other characters since I was mostly messing around)
What is the difference between this and the Brawl combos from an auto-cancel?
The difference is that these are true combos, as such, you get a guaranteed 31/32% (from Uair and the first hit of the Nair), and the third strongest Bair in the game now can reliably hit, and if performed at the edge of Final Destination, it is a death combo.
This was tested without DI and without rage.
I may do some testing testing a single character for every weight-falling speed combination.
I also think that you can set-up for a jab lock with the tipman, and maybe Dair a second time to jab lock again, but he should miss three techs, but it would start a tech-chase in other cases.
But, as I said, I haven't tested that, I might be able to test Saturday/Sunday, but I'm not sure.

 

[Opana]

I've tried to get that method to work with little success so that's why I'm looking for set ups. I have successfully performed the platform fall dair cancel but nothing else mid bsttle.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A good method of dsmash is using it to punish like a dash grab backthrow near the edge of a stage if you want your opponent behind you.

It's long enough and quick enough to punish some moves that dash grab can't.

 

[Opana]

Dsmash out of usmash at 0% seems to work on a good amount of characters.

Also, a Lucario used extremespeed to escape my grounded flame choke. Right as dorf's hand explodee with darkness his es activated. He probably buffered it accidentally, but still I am curious if other characters can buffer a move to escape.

Will try and get a video up.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Did a bit of refurbishing in the front page. Added tips by @ Z1GMA and linked the two stage guides by @ _Magus_ and @ Hi-Hatz

 

[_Magus_]

I always wanted to do something like this but it's risky as hell for obvious reasons.

This is a good bait for airdodge happy players. And it doesn't seem too risky, if you see them not taking the bait, you can just grab the ledge instead of Ganociding.

 

[MezzoMe]

Allright, so I tested the true combos from a cancelled Dair.
Remember that the ones that pop the enemy in the air can be tetched, so they turn into tech-chases.
Here are the guaranteed follow-ups, all of them are tested on Mario in training mode, with the rage always nullified by eating an heart container, and with no DI, also, the range in wich the percentage will work, is before the Dair connects. Also, the attack are pergormed as soon as possible, some of them might true combo if delayed, but then the reward would be overshadowed by the one of slower and stronger moves:
Jab
Is true between 5% and 23%
It deals 27%
FThrow
Is true between 5% and 18%
It deals 32%
How do I know that it is true if the combo count resets when I grab? Because the grab has the same start-up of his jab.
Dthrow->Wizard Dropkick
Is true between 17% and 18%. Yes, it is literally a single percent window, at least against Mario, but remember that this window is needed for the DThrow to combo from the calcelled Dair, the DThrow->WDK alone is true until 49%.
It deals 35%
DTilt
Is true between 8% and 17%
It deals 32%, however, the DTilt has more range than the grab so you can connect it more easily.
FTilt
Is true between 10% and 19%
Deals 32%
DSmash
Is true between 17% and 23%
Deals 40% if both hits connect, 25% if only the first one does
USmash
Is true between 27% and 36%
Deals 43%
It requires precise spacing, you may need to hypen smash or reverse the USmash depending on wich part of the Dair hits.
I tested togheter short-hopped aerials and full hopped ones, though that shouldn't matter that much given the knockback scaling of the Dair.
Nair
Is true between 17% and 62%
Deals 31% as only the first hit connects, 28% if the second does. Deedless to say, if you do everything correctly, you will always hit with the first hit.
Also, technically the Nair has the same start-up as the jab, however, because of the new buffering system, you can't short hop and Nair as fast.
Uair
Is true between 15% and 73%
Deals 32%
Having a wider reach where this combo is possible and dealing more damage, this combo is always better than the Nair, unless Stale Move Negation comes in play.
GANNON-BAN COMBO 1
I want to continue on the path of "Hell Drop" and call this
Phantom Crusher
Fair
It's true between 30% and 67%, at starting from 50% at the ledge, even without rage, the combo throws Mario to the blast line, just the perfect situation to complete a GANNON-BAN.
Note that in order for it to be a true combo, you must hit with the hitbox above Ganon's head
GANNON-BAN COMBO 2
Death hand
Bair
It's true between 20% and 59% and is a GANNON-BAN combo for the same reason as the Fair, with the difference that from the ledge and without rage, it needs 40% in order to throw Mario to the limit of the blast line.
The two following GANNON-BAN combos aren't guaranteed, but unlike the previous two, they cause the death of Mario no matter what, in other words, they aren't guaranteed to connect but are guaranteed to K.O. Mario, so you can use them as mix-up between the true combos, since they are just too powerful to ignore. Speaking of this, the third needs 30%, to hit properly an unprepared opponent, the 4 needs 40%, both need both you and your opponent at the ledge, and cause the death of Mario no matter what, guess some of you already understood at what I'm referring to.
GANNON-BAN COMBO 3
Shadow crush
You can jump over Mario and deathspike him with the wizkick, Ganon will land onstage
GANNON-BAN COMBO 4
Abyss choke
Aerudo
Guess you know what to do next
TL;DR: DAIR IS BROKEN.
I discarded the rest of the moves either because they didn't have any true combo(FSmash) or because they weren't neither fast or stong enough(both in damage and knockback) to have some uses in combos(Dark Dive and Wizard Dropkick).
The only one that might have some use is Dark Fists, but I still havent't it.
On a side note, i find it fairly easy to cancel the Dair by short-hopping, and Dairing on reaction when I see Ganon that starts falling down.