Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Jiom]

You guys think stuff like this could benefit the dark lord's Gerudo Game Play?
http://www.wikihow.com/Win-at-Rock,-Paper,-Scissors

Surprisingly detailed for RPS but which part did you mean specifically?

I found the "pregame" influencing your opponent really interesting although for us pregame is most likely game 1 of a set or your first stock.

I have more to say but I keep thinking and it keeps geting more complex.. thanks sykkamorre for mentioning that xD

 

[Z1GMA]

Surprisingly detailed for RPS but which part did you mean specifically?

No specific part, really. But i think stuff like this, and similar stuff, might be cool to learn for Ganons.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Habits I've noticed from Flame Choking people:

*People who don't know much about Ganondorf will often roll away the first time, especially after aerial Flame Choke as a recovery move. These players are the ones who are most likely to try to do different things after you successfully techchase them in one direction.
*Ganondorf players or people who have decent experience in the matchup have about a 60% chance of doing something "stupid" like roll towards the ledge, or do the same option about twice in a row even after you successfully techchase it.
*Really serious Ganon mains are more likely (about 40% of the time as opposed to 10% of the time) to wait on the ground after they're choked to throw off and punish techchase attempts. Or then at a certain point, they start acting like "inexperienced" players and doing "normal" mixups to further throw you off balance.

tl;dr, the better players have more complicated patterns for dealing with grappler oki. They exist, but it's harder to get into their rhythm repeatedly.

 

[Shogger]

I notice a lot online that most people's reflex is to GUA, so I usually step back to re-choke them. Shockingly, a lot of players' reflexes are then to GUA again, so I usually step back to either re-choke from that or cover the inward roll.

 

[jahkzheng]

*Really serious Ganon mains are more likely (about 40% of the time as opposed to 10% of the time) to wait on the ground after they're choked to throw off and punish techchase attempts. Or then at a certain point, they start acting like "inexperienced" players and doing "normal" mixups to further throw you off balance.

Not sure I'd say I'm "really serious" but that sounds like me. Notice how I didn't highlight "to throw off and punish techchase attempts". That's kind of only half of what's going on in my head. The other half is, "I don't know what to do now"... which is mostly due to having barely played any Ganon dittos at all in this game yet and not used to being on the other side of a choke. But I do know how Ganon operates and I know he's one of those "un-dtilt-able" characters after choke, so I'm relatively safe just lying there for a moment and trying to react to who choked me. And I also know about a lot of the scary follow ups he can perform after a choke tech read and I don't want to fall into them either. I do end up doing the "inexperienced" stuff eventually though if the match is fast enough and I default to my reckless nature, but that's hardly by choice, heh~

 

[Jiom]

I notice a lot online that most people's reflex is to GUA, so I usually step back to re-choke them. Shockingly, a lot of players' reflexes are then to GUA again, so I usually step back to either re-choke from that or cover the inward roll.

When they are at the ledge a pivot flame choke can cover every option except for staying on the ground. If they aren't at the ledge though they can get out with a forward roll which might lead you to getting punished or just going back to neutral game.

If they tech it, that's a different story and is character dependent.

 

[Z1GMA]

A stupidly good way to land Fsmashes on some characters after a Gerudo is to Dash away and do a down-angeled Fsmash-canceled turnaround. (I perfer this over Pivot Fsmashing.)
Against a lot of characters, it covers roll in, stand up, GUA, and if they are just lying there.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I notice a lot online that most people's reflex is to GUA, so I usually step back to re-choke them. Shockingly, a lot of players' reflexes are then to GUA again, so I usually step back to either re-choke from that or cover the inward roll.

They either do GUA or they roll one way and get choked then roll the other way and get choked. And that's usually when my "Flame Chain" stops.

 

[RAzul]

Can someone help explain to me how the super armor on WP works? Like, its properties and when it is able to be hit through.

 

[Pyr]

Hey guys. Post from the Competitive Discussion forum for S4 that I made:

It may just be me thinking things or seeing things, but can anyone confirm or deny that Ganon's Fsmash is top invincible? I have an oddly high streak of throwing it out during their aerial and it hitting without issues when I definitely should've been hit.

Thought it might be better here. Anyone know if this feeling has some merit? It's become more consistent over time, and I can't believe I'm that godly at prediction.

Specific circumstance: They're hit high. I initiate the smash as they come in to catch an empty land. They throw an aerial that hits my head as the hitbox for the shoulder comes out. It's not angled. Their hitbox seems to overlap my hurtbox (my head), and clearly is at the part of the attack that would suggest I'd be hit out of it. Instead, they get killed as the elbow finishes and I receive no damage.

Has happened with several aerials so far, specifically with ones like who don't have major vertical hitboxes on bair.

 

[Jyro]

Hi all! I haven't been on smashboards in a while, forgive me if this has already been established.
It is just me or is Up-smash really, really good? It comes out pretty fast and ENDS really quickly too, faster than most people expect (even me), so I use it to bait and punish. It covers high and in front of him (which in previous games might be covered better by up air) Any opponent coming down that dodges the up-smash incorrectly will usually be punished on landing. If you predict a counter, then up-b instead or wait for the counter period to end. It kills really early too, and does good shield damage.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Hi all! I haven't been on smashboards in a while, forgive me if this has already been established.
It is just me or is Up-smash really, really good? It comes out pretty fast and ENDS really quickly too, faster than most people expect (even me), so I use it to bait and punish. It covers high and in front of him (which in previous games might be covered better by up air) Any opponent coming down that dodges the up-smash incorrectly will usually be punished on landing. If you predict a counter, then up-b instead or wait for the counter period to end. It kills really early too, and does good shield damage.

It is indeed a very great move. Gives Ganon a huge versatility tool.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Just thought i'd post here about probably the most amusing little string that I've found.

So, onstage: Tipman( The ending hitbox of uair) >Ftilt.

Probably been used before but oh lord is it funny. They slide away, immediately run to punish and eat an ftilt. You could just as easily replace it with a dtilt depending on distance but satisfaction abounds from that deeply manly boot.

It got me thinking, what else is tipmanning good for onstage?

 

[Obake]

If anyone wants to practice Ganon techs with me please let me know. I'm available for any practice if anyone wants.

 

[_Magus_]

Habits I've noticed from Flame Choking people:

*People who don't know much about Ganondorf will often roll away the first time, especially after aerial Flame Choke as a recovery move. These players are the ones who are most likely to try to do different things after you successfully techchase them in one direction.
*Ganondorf players or people who have decent experience in the matchup have about a 60% chance of doing something "stupid" like roll towards the ledge, or do the same option about twice in a row even after you successfully techchase it.
*Really serious Ganon mains are more likely (about 40% of the time as opposed to 10% of the time) to wait on the ground after they're choked to throw off and punish techchase attempts. Or then at a certain point, they start acting like "inexperienced" players and doing "normal" mixups to further throw you off balance.

tl;dr, the better players have more complicated patterns for dealing with grappler oki. They exist, but it's harder to get into their rhythm repeatedly.

I love this. I couldn't figure out how to put this into words, but this is what you learn after Chainchoking enough.
Priceless info for all of us. Thanks A2Z.

 

[_Magus_]

Hi all! I haven't been on smashboards in a while, forgive me if this has already been established.
It is just me or is Up-smash really, really good? It comes out pretty fast and ENDS really quickly too, faster than most people expect (even me), so I use it to bait and punish. It covers high and in front of him (which in previous games might be covered better by up air) Any opponent coming down that dodges the up-smash incorrectly will usually be punished on landing. If you predict a counter, then up-b instead or wait for the counter period to end. It kills really early too, and does good shield damage.

My personal favorite of all his smashes. Side smash is nice too for hard reads, but Up smash is nearly unpunishable.

Edit: Whoops! Double post. Sorry, it's been awhile. Won't happen again, I swear!

 

[Jiom]

Just thought i'd post here about probably the most amusing little string that I've found.

So, onstage: Tipman( The ending hitbox of uair) >Ftilt.

Probably been used before but oh lord is it funny. They slide away, immediately run to punish and eat an ftilt. You could just as easily replace it with a dtilt depending on distance but satisfaction abounds from that deeply manly boot.

It got me thinking, what else is tipmanning good for onstage?

Well I conditioned my friends to shield after I land a tipman on them so I love to get a sideb after it. Also if you do it near the ledge as an edgeguard you can pretty much run off stage and combo into fair or whatever air move you want.

If you land them off stage though double jump dair is my favorite

 

[RAzul]

Somebody please help me with tips against Sheik. She's broken in every facet whether Ganon or not. It's incredibly ridiculous and frustrating

 

[A2ZOMG]

Somebody please help me with tips against Sheik. She's broken in every facet whether Ganon or not. It's incredibly ridiculous and frustrating

You pray.

Your best bet against her is slowly making your way into D-tilt range as usual, and try to predict whether or not she commits to either a needle or F-air while you are in position to either DA or N-air her. Try your best to juggle her whenever the opportunity presents itself because it's your best chance of getting massive reward against her. Otherwise when edgeguarding her, you have to find a way to go deep before she's in range to Up-B to the ledge.

It's definitely a difficult, potentially demoralizing matchup. Not much to it other than being both patient and quick witted.

In other news, I find ZSS difficult, but I mostly believe it's due to matchup inexperience. I haven't yet trained myself to spotdodge her grab on reaction, and how to punish her DA on block consistently.

Other than that...I don't actually think it's that bad. Flip jump from what I've seen is actually not too hard to punish as long as you don't overcommit when chasing her, though you will often trade with it depending on your timing, but ZSS is much lighter than Ganondorf meaning you should try to challenge it directly. Paralyzer is annoying, but at the right ranges, you can powershield it and force ZSS into a defensive position due to the threat of DA. You can play footsies with her due to your range.

She juggles Ganondorf ridiculously well, so it's definitely not easy. But I think neutral is totally doable, and being able to trade with Flip Jump gives Ganondorf options to KO ZSS.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Guys... so I was just looking through the brawl dorf boards and I remembered a thing.

Ready for this? BANANA CHOKING.

Please Tell me this is still a thing.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Guys... so I was just looking through the brawl dorf boards and I remembered a thing.

Ready for this? BANANA CHOKING.

Please Tell me this is still a thing.

I'm dumb. What is Banana Choking?

 

[Sykkamorre]

A way to do an inescable 41 damage to Diddy, that's what!

Hold banana > choke > stutterstep downtoss > fsmash

 

[MagiusNecros]

Hmm. Will give it a go in training for the hell of it.

 

[Kofu]

I'm sure you can get one or two chokes off with a banana in hand. Unfortunately Diddy's new bananas disappear after two throws, so you can't really keep it going. Not sure how teching interacts with banana choking, either.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I guess it depends on what happens if they tech or not.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Why choke more than once? If it works, we have pretty much a free kill.

Blasted teching.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah unless you can prep them to not tech it probably won't work. Otherwise you can choke short hop and down throw and land a raw point blank Fsmash.

So basically you need a insane read on your opponent.

Although a Choke > Tech chase x2 > Banana > Fsmash sounds demoralizing.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Somebody please help me with tips against Sheik. She's broken in every facet whether Ganon or not. It's incredibly ridiculous and frustrating

Let her hits flow through you. Only respond with controls when necessary and play normally but more passively.

DIng Sheik's move is the best asset Ganon has against her.

 

[Xinc]

Duly noted against Falco: You can choke him out of side B.

 

[RAzul]

You pray.

Your best bet against her is slowly making your way into D-tilt range as usual, and try to predict whether or not she commits to either a needle or F-air while you are in position to either DA or N-air her. Try your best to juggle her whenever the opportunity presents itself because it's your best chance of getting massive reward against her. Otherwise when edgeguarding her, you have to find a way to go deep before she's in range to Up-B to the ledge.

It's definitely a difficult, potentially demoralizing matchup. Not much to it other than being both patient and quick witted.

In other news, I find ZSS difficult, but I mostly believe it's due to matchup inexperience. I haven't yet trained myself to spotdodge her grab on reaction, and how to punish her DA on block consistently.

Other than that...I don't actually think it's that bad. Flip jump from what I've seen is actually not too hard to punish as long as you don't overcommit when chasing her, though you will often trade with it depending on your timing, but ZSS is much lighter than Ganondorf meaning you should try to challenge it directly. Paralyzer is annoying, but at the right ranges, you can powershield it and force ZSS into a defensive position due to the threat of DA. You can play footsies with her due to your range.

She juggles Ganondorf ridiculously well, so it's definitely not easy. But I think neutral is totally doable, and being able to trade with Flip Jump gives Ganondorf options to KO ZSS.

**** you're so right.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0&feature=youtu.be

Very good information you should look into.

@2:34-2:36 You can find the length of Ganon's perfect pivot.

 

[Cleaver9077]

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLL, Ganondorf isn't that great to meh but he does reserve repect since he is a fatty that weighs a lot. So I disagree with the post.

 

[Hi-Hatz]

@ Ray_Kalm @ A2ZOMG i was working on my thread for stage-related ganon techniques when i stopped to think about the hell-drop, and i've been trying to figure out what exactly to say about it. the shockwave itself is incapable of dealing damage, right? is the only advantage a very slight frame advantage over regular platform dropping, and if so, any idea how much? it seems like something you have to premeditate, because it happens too fast to just first want to drop down and THEN decide you want to cancel it in that instant. somebody explain it to me better pls.

*i guess while i'm at it, would anyone have the frame data on the inputs for hell-dropping? if not, i can try to do it myself.

also, i finally had time to sit down and comprehend that bit about the SH aerial to gerudo cancel on the ledge, and it seems really good and easy to incorporate. thanks for posting it!

** it wasn't mentioned, but you can also SH air dodge to GLLC. dang i love ganon.

 

[Big O]

After watching a video featuring @Vermanubis vs a Marth, I remembered something cool that should probably be explored. In that set he employs empty ledge trumping a lot. While it's not as cool or obvious as ledge trump to Bair, empty ledge trump may be something to look into because when they re-grab the ledge they won't have any invincibility frames.

Against certain recoveries, this can be even more exploitable than the trump lag itself. Ledge magnetism assisted Dair for maximum evil.

 

[Hi-Hatz]

to add to all this ledge-related hype... i just want to make sure everyone knows about frame 1 ledge-snap vulnerability:

why wait for the second ledge-grab when it's already free on the first? good for a d-air on sheik, palutena, and anyone else who doesn't come up swinging.
shout-outs to my man ryo for showing the video to me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Ray_Kalm @ A2ZOMG i was working on my thread for stage-related ganon techniques when i stopped to think about the hell-drop, and i've been trying to figure out what exactly to say about it. the shockwave itself is incapable of dealing damage, right? is the only advantage a very slight frame advantage over regular platform dropping, and if so, any idea how much? it seems like something you have to premeditate, because it happens too fast to just first want to drop down and THEN decide you want to cancel it in that instant. somebody explain it to me better pls.

*i guess while i'm at it, would anyone have the frame data on the inputs for hell-dropping? if not, i can try to do it myself.

also, i finally had time to sit down and comprehend that bit about the SH aerial to gerudo cancel on the ledge, and it seems really good and easy to incorporate. thanks for posting it!

** it wasn't mentioned, but you can also SH air dodge to GLLC. dang i love ganon.

I'm guessing the AT is pretty pointless tbh. Platform dropping by itself is only a 3 frame commitment for reference. This AT would have been a lot cooler if the shockwave was in fact a hitbox.

 

[Hi-Hatz]

yeah, i tried a few different variables and it just can't seem to do anything. oh well.

 

[Sykkamorre]

So guys, ever had a pesky sonic use homing attack offstage to recover?
Simply drop to ledge as he starts the attack and giggle to yourself as his homing doesn't activate, sending him to his grave all early like.

Just thought i'd mention it.

 

[Hi-Hatz]

So guys, ever had a pesky sonic use homing attack offstage to recover?
Simply drop to ledge as he starts the attack and giggle to yourself as his homing doesn't activate, sending him to his grave all early like.

Just thought i'd mention it.

doesn't activate at all? is it because you're invincible? O_o

*are you sure that what you're describing isn't just how the move acts when you're too far from it? i was doing it on stage too, and ledge-clinging didn't seem to affect it differently. this was a brief test though.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Looks like the timing is incredibly tight, but yeah, I has a replay of me pulling it off.
Tested the range of his HA, it shoulda locked on.