Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Ray_Kalm]

Way too early to be giving Ganon a -35 matchup already, A2.

I believe light weights are going to be less of a problem for Ganon this game. Heavy and mid weights will give him a harder time.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's speculative. She does however have most of the things that Ganon really dislikes, and that hasn't changed in three Smash games. It's almost certainly Ganon's hardest matchup overall in this game, as it has been since forever (ignoring the Ice Climbers in Brawl...obviously).

Most of the heavy characters, you can space SH autocancel B-air against, which makes things better. I mean, against anyone tall enough to be hit by it easily, SH B-air is AMAZING.

 

[Primer TMT]

I believe ganon autocancel Dair it's back, i think ganondorf is better, his speed now make him insane because, how a tank can be so fast? he's the only heavy who can make continuous atacks, strong attacks to be exactly, I thinks thats why, he's not the heaviest character, because he's was fast in brawl!! now is faster, the problem is to use correctly the attacks, i think with short hop and 2nd jump at the same time Dair and Fair has no landing lag!! in smash 4 Ganondorf is ****ing Good, the problem is you respect characters like sheik, falco etc, the only heavy that can autocancel Air atacks the only.
Flame choke, another good pro, teachable but, 12%, with a jab it's like 20% Ftilt/Dtilt 26%...etc, if someone tech forwards use wizard foot, if backwards, grab/Ftilt/maybe Fsmash/etc, Ganondorf needs brain too, my opinion is...Ganondorf its awesome now, so simpleNow, it's so sooooooooooon! to say he's lame or horrible matchups for him...We haven't used him yet, a lot of time is waiting us tu use DORF! and of course...new Advanced techniques, tricks, mind games, a lot to secrets with Ganondorf

 

[HeavyLobster]

I want to say Ganon's matchups right now are likely half 45/55s and half 4/6s. Maybe up to five 5/5s. Not yet sold he beats anyone.

Sheik MIGHT be a 35/65 though because the character by design is just insanely stupid for Ganon to deal with. She's harder to edgeguard than Ganon would like, Needles are Needles, and her pressure game is really hard to react to. Fortunately, she is though relatively easy to juggle.

Well, if that's the standard for worst character in the game, Sakurai and Bamco did a good job, as that basically makes Ganondorf about as good as Brawl Ike in terms of usability in tourneys, and you could do a lot worse than that. (Not that balance patches wouldn't be appreciated)

 

[A2ZOMG]

I believe ganon autocancel Dair it's back, i think ganondorf is better, his speed now make him insane because, how a tank can be so fast? he's the only heavy who can make continuous atacks, strong attacks to be exactly, I thinks thats why, he's not the heaviest character, because he's was fast in brawl!! now is faster, the problem is to use correctly the attacks, i think with short hop and 2nd jump at the same time Dair and Fair has no landing lag!! in smash 4 Ganondorf is ****ing Good, the problem is you respect characters like sheik, falco etc, the only heavy that can autocancel Air atacks the only.

If you are able to, posting videos would be helpful. I don't think anybody here is quite sure in what situation you are talking about to autoacancel D-air. We know it can be autocanceled in fullhop, which is more reliable against taller characters. Are you suggesting this can work in a short hop too?

 

[Z1GMA]

Do you guys think there's a tiny, tiny chance Ganon can AC Dair on the WiiU-version, even though it seems he can't on 3DS?
I mean, in Brawl, he wasn't able to ledgedrop > DJ > Aerudo on to the stage in the EU-version of the game, but Clai (I think it was Clai..?) showed that it was possible on the US-version.

 

[Primer TMT]

i Don't mean a fullhop...idk how to explain it...mmmm....isn't short hop, this 1st jump followed by the second jump, almost simultaneously..really do you not understand? i can't post a video becuz none do it... this is what i think!..Friday i'll try..
If it works I upload a video...and if not, well i was wrong x.x

 

[A2ZOMG]

Do you guys think there's a tiny, tiny chance Ganon can AC Dair on the WiiU-version, even though it seems he can't on 3DS?
I mean, in Brawl, he wasn't able to ledgedrop > DJ > Aerudo on to the stage in the EU-version of the game, but Clai (I think it was Clai..?) showed that it was possible on the US-version.

Not unreasonable. Testing inevitably will be more accurate and varied with superior Wii-U controls.

 

[Z1GMA]

i Don't mean a fullhop...idk how to explain it...mmmm....isn't short hop, this 1st jump followed by the second jump, almost simultaneously..really do you not understand? i can't post a video becuz none do it... this is what i think!..Friday i'll try..
If it works I upload a video...and if not, well i was wrong x.x

Like insta-DJ Dair? Interesting.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have bad news.

You should NEVER aerial Flame Choke Jigglypuff unless it's a Ganoncide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8zn9fr3BDE

I'm assuming that there are other characters who can Jab you out of it. Or alternatively if they buffer grab, they will be at a frame advantage for attempting it.

 

[Daeyrat]

or unless you're at low %.

http://shoryuken.com/2014/10/02/sup...can-launch-possibly-includes-balance-changes/

Probably patching out infinites. I don't know if techable Flame Choke will ever be changed during SSB4 lifespan, but it would certainly be an immense buff to Ganon. Guaranteed dtilt after EVERY flame choke would be awesome.

 

[Primer TMT]

Like insta-DJ Dair? Interesting.

Exactly! well. all of you gonna have the game tomorrow?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Exactly! well. all of you gonna have the game tomorrow?

I can understand what you're trying to say. I'll test it out myself tomorrow.

 

[Thani]

I was curious, does the aerial Gerudo Dragon {Flame Choke Custom that launches them skyward after the grab} also cause a techable ground bounce when it slams them against the ground?

Edit: I ask because if standard aerial Flame Choke is unsafe against characters such as Jigglypuff and Luigi and others with ultra-fast kill moves, I wonder if the Custom would also share this weakness if it ground bounced them [and thus, was techable], or if it literally just sent them up after the slam without actually bouncing them off the ground first.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I was curious, does the aerial Gerudo Dragon {Flame Choke Custom that launches them skyward after the grab} also cause a techable ground bounce when it slams them against the ground?

Refer to post #50.

Yes, it does, but we aren't sure for which characters. So far we have Jigglypuff.

/Edit, Woops read that too fast.

 

[Untouch]

Yeah if customs are allowed, I'll be switching to the piercing side b.
Being able to tech out of flame choke completely ruins it.

Also the alternate down b #2 is techable if done in the air.

 

[Twoyears]

I hope they patch this out. There is no reason for aerial flame choke to be punishable on hit, much less with rest.

 

[Daeyrat]

Started playing today. I don't know why, but Ganon feels smoother than in Brawl. I can't say why. He's obviously slow and doesn't jump very high, but it is smoothier. Maybe landing lag for everything has been slightly reduced or has slightly better acceleration.
Of course, this doesn't apply only to him. Even Link and Pikachu received this new feeling.

 

[toadster101]

Started playing today. I don't know why, but Ganon feels smoother than in Brawl. I can't say why. He's obviously slow and doesn't jump very high, but it is smoothier. Maybe landing lag for everything has been slightly reduced or has slightly better acceleration.
Of course, this doesn't apply only to him. Even Link and Pikachu received this new feeling.

Overall, Ganondorf is very similar to his Brawl incarnation, but I think he's a bit better this time. Certainly not bottom tier material.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm liking Usmash -> Nair. Around 44% damage.

 

[mangamusicfan]

I played with ganon for a couple of ours.
He is much better then hè whas im brawl.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm liking Usmash -> Nair. Around 44% damage.

Yeah. N-air does like 21 damage in this game if you land both hits.

We should also try to find ways to use D-smash as well. That move does like 23 damage. It's still stupid on shields though...especially because of the dumb hitbox on the 2nd hit which PULLS people towards Ganon on block.

 

[Daeyrat]

Tested his customs. Hit only fspecial goes a long way. Its safe on block. Lots of damage. Explosive flame choke deals hits. Nearby opponents get hit too. Excellent for ffa. I think his upb2 is invulnerable during the first dark wave. Great killing potential and its faster than a smash attack. Excellent punish option. Sword is op for ffas.

Against enemies who recover from below to sweetspot the ledge, ganon can jump, down b backwards (towards the stage) and recover. Better than stomp or bair

 

[Usopp]

All you need is down throw > down air at the ledge. Ganon is godlike. Ganon is love, Ganon is life.

 

[lavagolem123]

It's not very useful but just to let you guys know, U-Tilt wrecks shields. I caught a Lucina who tried to shield it (her shield was more than a little bit past halfway, but not full) and it instantly broke it.

 

[Daeyrat]

Utilt s explosion pillar actually has a hitbox too. Weaker, but existent.

 

[Opana]

Utilt gives Ganondorf immunity to Kirby's inhale, he just gets pulled over and not sucked in.

Likely works on D3 too, seems like it could be interesting.

 

[Javon89]

In terms of techchasing I've found Warlock Kick to be really useful (with intelligent use of course)

 

[Z1GMA]

Ganon can INDEED AC his SH Dair in slight slopes. Try it towards the center on Yoshi's Island.
Garantuees follow-ups!

 

[Opana]

I really miss sh dairs, but I've been using full hop ones as sort of a mindgame and jump punisher. You can fastfall the fh dair and autocancel, so a lot of people aren't expecting it.

 

[Primer TMT]

Ganon can INDEED AC his SH Dair in slight slopes. Try it towards the center on Yoshi's Island.
Garantuees follow-ups!

o dont understand D: what ac means and SH

 

[lavagolem123]

ac = Auto Cancel (no lag when you land)

SH = Short Hop

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not very useful but just to let you guys know, U-Tilt wrecks shields. I caught a Lucina who tried to shield it (her shield was more than a little bit past halfway, but not full) and it instantly broke it.

Utilt is a GUARANTEED shieldbreak on full shields.

Not that you'll use that often, but it does have it's place for scaring people.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is Side B to Dtilt guaranteed?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Is Side B to Dtilt guaranteed?

Depends on the character. Some characters can tech side B while others can't. And from those who can't, not all of them can be hit by DTilt or one certain move.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Depends on the character. Some characters can tech side B, while others can't. And from those who can't, not all of them can be hit by DTilt or one certain move.

Just like Brawl eh? lol.

I noticed it in for Glory when I did it against Greninja, I killed him with the Dtilt and was surprised it linked together.

 

[Twoyears]

Speaking of side-bs, is it just me or is flame choke 2 useless? More start up (I think), travels little distance, and has just ridiculous ending lag. I might have landed this move about 3 times from the 30 times I've used it. Am I using this incorrectly or is this just a bad move?

 

[Daeyrat]

Speaking of side-bs, is it just me or is flame choke 2 useless? More start up (I think), travels little distance, and has just ridiculous ending lag. I might have landed this move about 3 times from the 30 times I've used it. Am I using this incorrectly or is this just a bad move?

Useless? No. This game isn about only 1x1. Its the best variation for ffas

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Warlock punch is guaranteed after flame choke on characters who have an average amount of lag and startup on getup attack or more. Superarmour takes the hits.

 

[Daeyrat]

edit: kill potential study remade and posted on page 3