Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Ray_Kalm]

You can pull your opponent back with you a small distance when you aerial gerudo. Somewhat like Bowsercide, but Ganon always controls and can only pull back. This can be good for ledge Ganoncides.

 

[Z1GMA]

Utilt is a GUARANTEED shieldbreak on full shields.

Not that you'll use that often, but it does have it's place for scaring people.

That's just awesome.
Btw, Utilt's IASA was good in Brawl, but it appear even better now.

Depends on the character. Some characters can tech side B while others can't. And from those who can't, not all of them can be hit by DTilt or one certain move.

So some characters can't tech it at all? Weird.

Warlock punch is guaranteed after flame choke on characters who have an average amount of lag and startup on getup attack or more. Superarmour takes the hits.

Never thought of using WP that way. It can really make the guessing-game easier for Ganon if they fear a WP.

 

[Shogger]

I'm able to consistently land Dash attack > Uair on lowish % targets. Is this a true combo?

 

[Daeyrat]

I also can confirm: Dash Attack indeed has armor. Ganon is buffed all around.

As for warlock, there is too, but it depends on ganons%. At low % he can tank another warlock. At higher %s, even mario s fireball disrupts it.

---

Finished my "knockout potential" study for some characters in the game and found more stuff for Ganon. It's a base to see how murderous Ganon is compared to the cast (not compared to Brawl).

Some comparisons. Used Mario + center of FD Battlefield. Not exact values. May be 1-2% up or down off.
Mario Sweetspot (flame) fsmash killed at 105%. Charged, 65%.
Luigi's fsmash killed Mario at 117%.
Metaknight was nerfed for Dsmash, so his main killer move is fsmash now. Killed at 95%. Charged, 65%.
Samus can sweetspot her flame during fsmash. Kills uncharged at 120%. Fully charged Beam shot also at 120%.
Falcon's fsmash kills at 102%. 65% if charged. Falcon Punch kills at 85% or 75% (turnaround).

These are just a base to understand who kills fast and who doesn't.

Now to heavyhitters:

DK's fsmash was nerfed. Kills at 100%. 65% if fully charged. Charged punch required 80%.
Mac's fsmash kills at 95%. 60% if charged. His fully charged standard special (not KO Uppercut) kills at 50%. Quite impressive considering he dashes. Excellent for FFAs.
Ike's fsmash kills at 80% uncharged and 45% if charged. Fully charged Usmash and Eruption both kill at 60%.
Bowser's fsmash kills at 70% or 40% when fully charged.
Dedede's fsmash is a monster. 72% uncharged or 35% fully charged (!!!). Down B (rocket hammer) not that strong. Fully charged it can kill at 65%

now... Ganondorf.
His fsmash actually has a sweetspot. Stronger point blank. If you hit the Mario with his fsmash without sweetspot, kills at 90%. If you sweetspot, 75% (yes!). Fully charged.... 42% (stronger than Ike in this case).
Warlock Punch is not as strong as it was in Brawl. Required 70%... or... if you change sides... 25%. Yes, it kills a 25% Mario from the center of Battlefield. It's ridiculously strong now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wait what, Dash Attack has Super Armor? And when during the move?

 

[Daeyrat]

cant say the exact frames. didnt test. just happened during the match. I said "confirm" because this has been said before by another user in this forum.

 

[Super_Smasher6]

that's good to know about forward smash and warlock punch super armor!
Imagine you flame choke someone when you have low % and you start a reverse warlock punch expecting your opponent to roll behind you cause he's afraid and BOOM IN DA FACE cause even if he try to hit you quickly it wont matter

I can also confirm that Up-tilt does immediatly break a full shield!!! i tested with a friend, asking him to put his shield right before the explosion and it broke it!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon has possibly the best surprise gimp game. He can gimp with tipman (tip of his UAir and the hitbox close to the tip, there are two for those who don't know). He can do this so fast and out of nowhere that your opponent won't except it. His UAir is even better this game, it is very strong and comes out faster. It can be combed into from a dash attack due to long hitstun. NAir is also a gimp move now, both or any one of the two hits. Using it out of wizard foot is surprisingly useful now.

FAir is a wonderful move. It is useful this game. It still has the brawl method use, where you would jump below or in front your opponent and wait for them to drop their shield. It can combo into itself on mid-high percentage. It is surprisingly fast, safe on many shields, and doesn't have as much lag as it did in Brawl.

Also, something I've noticed about the two moves are, when you're in the air, say in front of your opponent, two of the things your opponent can do is try attacking you or try spacing away or with an attack. UAir and FAir mixup can punish both those options. UAir will hit them before they hit you, and FAir will get them if they try spacing away.

 

[Shogger]

FAir is a wonderful move... It can combo into itself on mid-high percentage.

How do you combo Fair into Fair? I was under the impression that the Fair ending lag made all but double jump Fair lag until you hit the ground. Or do you mean offstage?

 

[jahkzheng]

This is in response to the talk about thunderstorming or AC SH dairs no longer being a thing on the Social thread. Just a reminder really since I'm pretty sure I've seen this discussed already...

You can get your AC SH dairs back quite easily with a speed boost. I got my short hop dairs to cancel again with about 20+ on speed but I probably could've gotten away with about 15+.

Thing is, of course, there's no consensus that using these boosts will ever be legal in competitive circles. Alt specials have a better chance since they're easier to keep track of, but I have my doubts about equipment being accepted.

And the other thing mentioned here already... even if you give Ganon back his thunderstorming ability, the fact that the move can now be teched doesn't make nearly as useful as it once was. It's still fun though... just saying.

Also want to mention that in getting that speed up, my attack took a hit, so I balanced that back out at the cost of a slightly less significant hit to defense. It may not have seemed that significant by the numbers, but I can say I could definitely tell I was launching further earlier, and thus, dying from stuff I'd normally survive. I was pretty quick though which was fun.

I'll admit, it's hard not to want to try and stick to the defaults, or at least limiting one's self to just alt specials what with the status of equipment's use in the competitive game uncertain, but unlikely. Don't want to fall in love with a character build that wouldn't be recognized or something. Then again, I don't play seriously enough that having two slightly different kinds of Ganon should bother me. I did get attached to the established AT's of Brawl though and I can see myself looking for something stable to focus on rather than trying to worm out of the weaknesses of the default. It's how I ended up feeling about Brawl+ back in the day... it was changing too much for me to feel like I could ever figure it out, if you know what I mean.

 

[jahkzheng]

So some characters can't tech it at all? Weird.

I'd like to see the list of who. I'd imagine it would be the taller characters that can't tech it since they're a shorter distance from the ground when Ganon holds them. Some short characters on the other hand fall more than their own height from Ganon's grasp.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Dark dive (2nd custom for UP + B) has super armour on the first hit and the second hit kills. The first hit normally combos into the second hit too, it works on many characters but not all.

Flame choke 3 is surprisingly good. The aerial version is faster than the grounded version and also has less lag. The damage after many hits is insanely high. The grounded version doesn't drop you off the edge and is an excellent tool for edgeguarding.

 

[Daeyrat]

Custom powered upb also kills zelda at 75%. Thats quite strong for such a fast move

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The best custom grouping I find to be is 2, 3, 2, 2.

Which is Warlock Sword, Flame Chain, Dark Fist and Dive Kick. Ganon flies all over the stage with the kick, and it can even cancel. But what's more amazing is that how it can make you avoid your opponents moves. It helps Ganon's recovery and mixup a lot and essentially makes him feel like a new character. Flame chain eats through shields and spododge and does massive damage, frustrates the opponent. Dark fists super armour releases you from a grab and damages the opponent a little bit. Warlock sword has massive range and it can surprisingly kill early.

I would only change Ganon's choke and possibly his wizard kicks if there was a reason to against certain chars. Otherwise, this is the best grouping. Flame wave is too slow and goes too low of a distance.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah, with Gerudo being techable, I can easily see Flame Chain being a good substitute. As for Wizdropkick, that alone would be enough to round out Ganon's game, imo. More than anything, now that airdodging into the ground is laggy, Ganon suffers an even more profound lack of land options than before. So that bizarre angle'd be nice to come to the ground with.

 

[Thinkaman]

Warlock punch is guaranteed after flame choke on characters who have an average amount of lag and startup on getup attack or more. Superarmour takes the hits.

Does anyone have more data on this?

 

[KageJuin]

Does anyone have more data on this?

a player was spamming this on me in for glory.
not only did I get up attack, but rolled behind him and smashed him every single time.
I was never hit by any warlock punches.

Sheik ftw?

I owned him as my own main: Ganondorf afterwards.

It's not viable. warlock punch is a punish, nothing more. try sparta kicking him. it kills quite easily around 100 %

 

[Thinkaman]

a player was spamming this on me in for glory.
not only did I get up attack, but rolled behind him and smashed him every single time.
I was never hit by any warlock punches.

Sheik ftw?

I owned him as my own main: Ganondorf afterwards.

It's not viable. warlock punch is a punish, nothing more. try sparta kicking him. it kills quite easily around 100 %

Yeah, I couldn't replicate it on anyone...

 

[Daeyrat]

try against ledge attack. It has long recovery. Maybe it works

 

[Bittersweet]

The only special I can't decide on is UpB. I'm in love with Warlock Sword's range, I stick true to vanilla Gerudo/Aerudo, Dropwiz is amazing recovery, but I still can't decide with UpB.

 

[Z1GMA]

Looks like Grab Release > Wizkick/DA works on some characters, but I haven't tested it on human players yet.

edit: doesn't look like it's a combo :/

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Flame Choke is too much fun for me to consider dropping it, even if Flame Chain ends up being the more viable option.

Everything else I've changed, however. Dropkick is incredible, and it opens up more options for Ganon. Dark Fists having armor caught me off guard, but helps out with recovery and that second hit if you land it wrecks characters incredibly early. And of course, the sword's range is just fantastic, I'll gladly take a slight reduction in power to poke people from really far away.

My competitive history with Ganon stems more from Melee (although I first picked him up in Brawl), so I'm not really used to down air having a sourspot, but it still seems like a useful option to hit with. That sourspot sends at an horizontal angle, and I've actually killed people with it when I was going for the meteor hit. You could also probably hit them into the stage for a stage spike, which is something I did with D3's down air earlier.

Up air is still one of my favorite aerials in this game. Not having a c-stick kind of hurts in this game, but I've still been able to dip people off the stage with his toes. Nair is pretty good, and bair is as awesome as always.

If customs do end up being a thing, everyone should be running dropkick. It auto-cancels on the ledge, sends you pretty far off stage and can gimp certain recoveries, has almost no ending lag on a grounded dropkick (aerial still suffers from lag) and is great for closing distance. Plus it assists with recovering really well.

 

[Daeyrat]

Great choice, keith

 

[Hydde]

Dropkick FTW

IM planning to use the 2nd up B because it looks badass..

I have not decided yet between sword or shotgun punch.

I know sword is overall better.. but i dont like how it looks

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Shotgun punch is a huge no in competitive play. There's no situation where shotgun punch would be a better choice, FSmash would always have better uses and results.

 

[Thinkaman]

Shotgun punch is a huge no in competitive play. There's no situation where shotgun punch would be a better choice, FSmash would always have better uses and results.

This was my reaction exactly.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Flame chain is definitely the best choice. After the final hit it launches the opponent down which can lead up to a tech chase.

 

[DLA]

I'm still very skeptical about Ganon as a character this time around, but I'm inclined to give credence to what Ray Kalm says. He's been around the block, so to speak, and he's been putting much more work into discovering this character than I have. I haven't even unlocked any custom moves yet, so I'm in no position to deny claims that they'll turn Ganon into a viable character.

I guess the biggest reason for my reservations is that I know there's some big stuff for Ganon coming in the next PM update, and I'd rather be excited about that than disappointed about Smash 4 Ganon.

 

[kunimitsu877]

i really dont see why people are complaining about ganons movelist its atleast not a complete captain falcon clone anymore(like he was in melee) and he can pull out his sword now atleast

 

[Bloodynite]

i really dont see why people are complaining about ganons movelist its atleast not a complete captain falcon clone anymore(like he was in melee) and he can pull out his sword now atleast

Because he generally has no safe ways to approach and lost his ability to put someone in a techchase with his Choke considering now it can be teched.

Can someone tell me whether or not he suffers T-Rex Syndrome in this game? I don't own a 3ds so I can't see for myself.

 

[kunimitsu877]

Because he generally has no safe ways to approach and lost his ability to put someone in a techchase with his Choke considering now it can be teched.

Can someone tell me whether or not he suffers T-Rex Syndrome in this game? I don't own a 3ds so I can't see for myself.

i dont know either since i dont have the game but i have seen footage and he does look slightly faster and he is apparently much stronger than before

 

[HyperGFreak]

Does anyone have advice on what ol' Ganon has that beats out ZSS? I know she and Duck Hunt are considered pretty strong in various places already, but I'm having a disproportionate amount of trouble catching ZSS's that don't screw up.

From what I've seen, she can very safely poke at me with her B -> various attacks, many of which seems to propel her far enough away from me on block that I can't quickly punish. I'm also actually having trouble gimping her and approaching her from above/below. From above, it looks like her whip and rocket boots beat out my kicks and I'm having issues punishing her down-B kick back onto the platform since it bounces her away on block.

The general tactic the best For Glory ZSSs I've seen use is repeated Neutral B -> Running attack, with some grabs thrown in. My inability to punish her/losing to her in priority might well be my lag online and slow inputs, but in general fighting her feels worse than the typical "Ganon can't close the distance" uphill battle.

Are there any attacks I have that she can't respond to easily, or that just out prioritize/trade favorably with her pokes, aside from obvious ones like punishing her Dair on whiff?

Sorry if this is in the wrong place.

 

[Yaya]

I discovered that Ganon can use side-b on stage to grab the ledge, much like in Project M. All you have to do is hold towards the stage after falling off and he will snap to it. This opens up Ganon's edge-guarding options greatly, as it's an easy and practical way to accomplish the ledge trump edgeguard that was posted earlier in the thread.

A couple of examples of me doing it in a match:
https://gfycat.com/DelectableZestyChafer
http://gfycat.com/NeighboringTameHoneybadger

 

[A2ZOMG]

I discovered that Ganon can use side-b on stage to grab the ledge, much like in Project M. All you have to do is hold towards the stage after falling off and he will snap to it. This opens up Ganon's edge-guarding options greatly, as it's an easy and practical way to accomplish the ledge trump edgeguard that was posted earlier in the thread.

A couple of examples of me doing it in a match:
https://gfycat.com/DelectableZestyChafer
http://gfycat.com/NeighboringTameHoneybadger

Very old news. Worked in Brawl. Less efficient than fastfall edge grabbing.

Does anyone have advice on what ol' Ganon has that beats out ZSS? I know she and Duck Hunt are considered pretty strong in various places already, but I'm having a disproportionate amount of trouble catching ZSS's that don't screw up.

From what I've seen, she can very safely poke at me with her B -> various attacks, many of which seems to propel her far enough away from me on block that I can't quickly punish. I'm also actually having trouble gimping her and approaching her from above/below. From above, it looks like her whip and rocket boots beat out my kicks and I'm having issues punishing her down-B kick back onto the platform since it bounces her away on block.

The general tactic the best For Glory ZSSs I've seen use is repeated Neutral B -> Running attack, with some grabs thrown in. My inability to punish her/losing to her in priority might well be my lag online and slow inputs, but in general fighting her feels worse than the typical "Ganon can't close the distance" uphill battle.

Are there any attacks I have that she can't respond to easily, or that just out prioritize/trade favorably with her pokes, aside from obvious ones like punishing her Dair on whiff?

Sorry if this is in the wrong place.

ZSS...is really maddening in general.

Honestly it's just a guessing game that's entirely in her favor. Just try your best to reactively spotdodge her grab attempts and try to shield your way in. You can try to Wizkick if she doesn't shield a lot. Very carefully spaced B-airs and F-airs can connect relatively easily on her tall frame if she doesn't crouch.

As for edgeguarding her...I really don't know.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Very old news. Worked in Brawl. Less efficient than fastfall edge grabbing.
ZSS...is really maddening in general..

Old? Yes. Much more helpful this game? Yes. @ Yaya that can be a crucial help in edge stealing - attack. It would work surprisingly well if timed correctly.

Also, another use that the side b (normal and 2nd custom only) would give Ganon is that he is able to regrab the ledge using side b after UAir, BAir and DAir while hanging from the ledge. He would otherwise just fall down. Similar to Brawl.

 

[HyperGFreak]

Very old news. Worked in Brawl. Less efficient than fastfall edge grabbing.
ZSS...is really maddening in general.

Honestly it's just a guessing game that's entirely in her favor. Just try your best to reactively spotdodge her grab attempts and try to shield your way in. You can try to Wizkick if she doesn't shield a lot. Very carefully spaced B-airs and F-airs can connect relatively easily on her tall frame if she doesn't crouch.

As for edgeguarding her...I really don't know.

Urk. I figured it was a pretty bad matchup, but was hoping there might be more to it than "Don't screw up any guards and hope she screws up while poking at you."

Ah well. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Urk. I figured it was a pretty bad matchup, but was hoping there might be more to it than "Don't screw up any guards and hope she screws up while poking at you."

Ah well. Thanks for the advice.

Your best bet would be avoiding all her moves with rolls and shield. Not repeatedly, but patiently and wisely. Don't attack risky at all, only do quick jabs, ftilt, and grab. Remember Ganon can do a lot of damage with even his quick hits. When FTilt hits her shield, roll away. Try KOing her with only moves that are 100% guaranteed, otherwise just simply avoid her until you can get that guarantee kill. Wizard foot aerial from ledge drops will work as a good mixup, but be fast with it.

 

[KageJuin]

http://youtu.be/D_OO7Z8DI7U?list=UUVGyW9oSTeF4zvQ8XDEAdKw

tips?

 

[TheBlueFalcon]

Falcon main with Ganondorf as my right-hand man.

Like others have said, the King has been buffed since Brawl and although he's still a target due to his speed, he has much more in his favour now than before.

Right now I've been focusing on Falcon so I play Ganon in a similar way to Brawl, but Choke to D-tilt is a solid (though not guaranteed) combo, sometimes allowing a shorthopped D-air followup for a 44% combo, and super armour on Warlock can actually catch people out more often than before.
He still hits like a freight train and some of his moves have just a bit more speed which is useful.

I've found Ganondorf tends to soak up the damage but he can follow up and punish quite well now when he gets an opening, and with the rage mechanic this means he becomes a dangerous threat if you know how to recover properly.
Particularly I've found that characters like Sonic, who can give Falcon a run for his money, get completely destroyed by Ganondorf and not just because Choke can cut straight through his spindash spam (although that helps).

It's a shame that some of Ganon's favourites like D-air have been nerfed, but D-air is still a devastating killer offstage and his Kick does ludicrous amounts of knockback if you land it in midair now. Dash, D-tilt, F-tilt, U-air and others are all solid killers at higher percents so he has a much easier job of finishing off damaged foes, something that many characters can struggle with in this game.

Smashes are hard to land but Ganondorf is all about reads. People tend to get overconfident playing against him because they think he's low tier - and I've never seen another Ganon online - but cockiness against the King leads to a quick death as he's brutal when it comes to punishing mistakes.

I've always been a fan of the Manon but I think this is his most fun appearance yet. Looking forward to seeing more in-depth analysis as well as his results.

--

@ KageJuin :
Smash less (much less), instead use tilts/sometimes dash attack.
Don't be afraid to Choke -> D-tilt all day long.
Don't Warlock when you're at high percents, really risky move but good to catch them out when it's safer.
Jab gets them out of your face and Ganon's aerial game is strong once you get a combo going, so follow up quickly once you launch them. Shorthopped U-air is good for anti-air.
Don't stomp down on them from the air, massive landing lag and will probably get shielded, allowing them to punish. Aerial Kick can sometimes work but it's also laggy (though it has a better chance to connect).
Don't overestimate Kick's range, need to be fairly close to hit.
Your recoveries are good, nice Kick setup at around 2:05.

 

[Illuvial]

His Dtilt has more range than his other tilts, so its his best ground poke even though it comes out slightly slower than Ftilt. His Uair and his Bair are his best approach options from the skies

Here are a few mix-ups I like to use:

Ganon's Down Throw > Short Hop Uair > Punish landing lag with Side B > Dtilt

Ganon's Down Throw > Short Hop Nair > Down B

Side B so that the enemy is downed near the edge > walk forward to bait out a roll in any direction you please (they'll mostly roll away from your walking direction) > Any move ever

Ok so that last one is more of a mindgame than anything else but you get the point