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The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

Doc King

Doc King

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I think for the stages that we have, Brinstar and RC should be banned and Pictochat and Pirate Ship should be legal as cps because mk is too dominant on Brinstar and rc, but he isn't so dominant on Pictochat and Pirate Ship is one of his worst stages. They also don't have so much air stuff to it and dumb gimmicks.
 
Tesh

Tesh

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Pirate Ship isn't one of his worst stages. And stop trying to ban and legalize stages for MK.
 
C.J.

C.J.

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You can't cater a stage list to specifically buff or nerf a specific character/type of character. If you want to change the stage list so that it hurts MK, just ban him. You're already acknowledging how much more powerful he is than the rest of the cast by stating that it is necessary to completely base the stage list around him.

When determining whether a stage should be legal, you should look at it in a vacuum; does this stage have anything about it that makes it random to the point where it will affect the consistency of the outcome of games played on it. Or, does this stage promote a specific tactic, independent of any specific character's tools, to the point where the game ceases to be about testing a predetermined set of skills that the community has (arbitrarily) chosen as what we wish to have tested in tournament play.

For your argument, let's look at Rainbow Cruise. I'm not going to talk about Brinstar because I feel that stage is very borderline and could be justified either way fairly well.

Is Rainbow Cruise random to the point that it will affect the consistency and outcomes of the games played on it? Not in the least. Rainbow Cruise is actually one of the LEAST random stages in the game! The entire stage follows in a set pattern, on a specific, and unchanging, timer. There is not a single thing about it that is random in the least! Anything that happens throughout the course of the match on this stage can be predicted pretty much perfectly. The pendulum will appear, 100% of the time, when the clock is at AB:CD:XY. That will never change, regardless of how many times you play on it, the characters on the stage, stock count, who's winning or losing, etc etc. RC is NOT random, at all.

Now, does it affect the skills we wish to, as a community, test? Does it change spacing? Arguably a little bit, but if it does, by an amount so infinitesimal that it is negligible. How about timing? It doesn't change the importance of timing in the least either. Control over your character? If anything, RC requires you to have even better control over your character than other stages. And so forth.

Now, what RC DOES do however, is it takes the emphasis on grounded combat and moves it to aerial combat instead. Does this change the skills the community wants to test? Not really, no. (If you think that it does, then you need to ban FD as well because it takes away almost all aerial combat and shifts it all to ground based gameplay). By it changing the focus of the skills tested, while not the skills themselves, that is what denotes it as a counterpick stage. [Most starter stages have a- somewhat- balanced emphasis placed on aerial and grounded combat (BF, PS1, Lylat, etc)]

Now, as for Pirate Ship and Pictochat.

Pictochat had a chance at being legal, and was for awhile. However, the randomness it introduced into the game (most commonly cited was the diagonal line gimping characters before it even appeared) and the lack of warning the hazards gave (attributing to the randomness) was too much to be believed that it wouldn't cause inconsistencies in the outcome of various matches.

As for Pirate Ship, I'm sure San and Niddo can explain it far better than I can, but it was originally banned for "rudder stalling." They did this because it was, at the time, believed to be such a powerful tactic that it was unbeatable and gameplay on the stage was reduced to abusing that strategy. Recently (well, not that recently) however, Pirate Ship, upon further testing has been beginning to show a case for rudder camping not being an over-centralizing tactic and possibly having merit as a counterpick stage.
 
WindMajor

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C.J. said:
As for Pirate Ship, I'm sure San and Niddo can explain it far better than I can, but it was originally banned for "rudder stalling." They did this because it was, at the time, believed to be such a powerful tactic that it was unbeatable and gameplay on the stage was reduced to abusing that strategy. Recently (well, not that recently) however, Pirate Ship, upon further testing has been beginning to show a case for rudder camping not being an over-centralizing tactic and possibly having merit as a counterpick stage.
Click to expand...
Expanding on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyv6gVx9t5c&feature=youtu.be

I'll explain further if needed.
 
Nidtendofreak

Nidtendofreak

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Twinkie said:
Expanding on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyv6gVx9t5c&feature=youtu.be

I'll explain further if needed.
Click to expand...
To expand this further:

Jump on the mast. Opponent is unable to see his character/the ship well enough with the bubble moving to a place that doesn't accurately portray his position to keep himself in the tiny safe area. He'll either pop out, or get killed very shortly, either by a stage change, or just the small rocking + terrible camera angle making it impossible to stay there for long lengths of time.
 
Judo777

Judo777

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Nidtendofreak said:
To expand this further:

Jump on the mast. Opponent is unable to see his character/the ship well enough with the bubble moving to a place that doesn't accurately portray his position to keep himself in the tiny safe area. He'll either pop out, or get killed very shortly, either by a stage change, or just the small rocking + terrible camera angle making it impossible to stay there for long lengths of time.
Click to expand...
While I do believe that rudder camping is pretty hard maintain (without dying) and more so disrupted by stage changes, I don't think your method works very well. If I were rudder camping and you proceeded to get on the mast to blind me from myself, I would simply surface since you are no where near the ledge to hit me when I come up.

Don't get me wrong I think its beatable but I don't think that's the best way to do it.
 
Nidtendofreak

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Judo777 said:
While I do believe that rudder camping is pretty hard maintain (without dying) and more so disrupted by stage changes, I don't think your method works very well. If I were rudder camping and you proceeded to get on the mast to blind me from myself, I would simply surface since you are no where near the ledge to hit me when I come up.

Don't get me wrong I think its beatable but I don't think that's the best way to do it.
Click to expand...
I'd do that if they were particularly stubborn and refusing to leave the rudder area while the stage isn't say, coming up on a Wind phase. You wanna rudder camp? Fine, you have no camera now. Have fun.
 
Doc King

Doc King

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Man, even with these stages, mk still dominates? Wow. MK should probably get banned then for being so powerful. I originally thought this was gonna balance the game, but I was wrong. I think we should just ban mk so mk doesn't take over Brawl completely (Which he pretty much has).
 
Overswarm

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Doc King said:
Man, even with these stages, mk still dominates? Wow. MK should probably get banned then for being so powerful. I originally thought this was gonna balance the game, but I was wrong. I think we should just ban mk so mk doesn't take over Brawl completely (Which he pretty much has).
Click to expand...
More stages hurts MK while less stages help with his tournament placements, this has been known for a while. The reason many of the stages were banned had nothing to do with MK. Not saying I agree with the bans, but MK didn't enter into the decision making process for them.
 
SaveMeJebus

SaveMeJebus

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What is the minimum amount of ranked players that have to attend in order for a ranked win to count for the rankings?
 
DeLux

DeLux

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That question has nothing to do with the Unity Rulesset
 
SaveMeJebus

SaveMeJebus

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This solves the problem with MK counter picking one of his two best stages. If his opponent won the first game, he is forced to waist a ban on that stage or risk playing their again.
 
Tesh

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rofl, most of 26 people? damn.

still, an mk ban poll on aib is asking for trouble. im sure half of those people either think he shouldnt be banned because u can beat him with ike on wifi or think he should be banned cuz nado is harder to punish on wifi.
 
Ussi

Ussi

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Someone checked every single some voters if they have gone to tourneys or not, and it was still 75%/25% for both non-tourney goers and tourney goers


here we go:

------------------------------------------------------
supaTONY wrote at 6:35 PM on Jul 25, 2011 :
I went through everybody's(on the first 2 pages) votes/page to check tournament history, here are the following data after 67 different votes:

Voted yes, and does not goes to tournaments: 25 = 37.31%
Voted no, and does not goes to tournaments: 10 = 14.93%
Voted yes, and does go to tournaments: 26 = 38.81%
Voted no, and does go to tournaments: 6 = 8.96%

This shows that for the people that DO go to tournaments, that it is pretty split 50/50. Remember, this is only for the first two pages(cause I got lazy). The excel sheet is available for whoever wants to continue.

-------------------------------------------

there is a bigger gap between tourney goers on banning MK over not
 
Tesh

Tesh

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Its been brought up like a million times now, but I really think a private group should be starter NOW to collect people that go to offline tournaments for another vote. If John numbers can go into every tournament results thread and pull data, I'm sure a group of people can go into brawl results and send invites to every tournament entrant. Then a vote can be had only by players, not by alt accounts, spectators, or random people that dont even play the game anymore.

We have 4 months from now til APEX to collect that kind of data and a vote can be held within the group after APEX to see what tournament goers really want.
 
Zankoku

Zankoku

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SaveMeJebus said:
I ignored that because it has nothing to do with me.
My thread has few post because most people agreed with it.
Click to expand...
This logic is on the approximate level of claiming your elephant repellent works perfectly 'cos there's no elephants around.
 
SaveMeJebus

SaveMeJebus

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[ЯVR] aisight said:
How do you confirm that "everybody agrees" if no one replies?
Click to expand...
Because no one that has posted completely disagrees and no one really posts just to say that they do agree. If I were to make a thread about Legalizing all items in tournament play, you better believe there are going to be a lot of people disagreeing with me and would most likely get more posts than the one we are talking about
 
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