The "turnip threshold"

[Battlecow]

So, as we all know, there's a luck factor in even high-level competitive melee--factors such as Randall (kind of), peach's item pulls, and to a lesser extent stuff like the judgment hammer, DL's wind, the shyguys, etc. etc.

The discussion I've seen in the past has said that there's a "turnip threshold" for randomness that we're willing to put up with (i.e., anything more disrupting than stitchfaces is unacceptable). My question is: are we really OK with it, or are we just incapable of doing anything about it? In my opinion, the randomness, which can and does decide matches at every level of play, is unacceptable in a competitive game. The better player should win, and the better player should not be decided by some random-number algorithm in the melee code.

Possible solutions (none of which are perfect)--banning "random" stages like YS and maybe even DL, banning peach (LOL no I'm not saying that should be seriously considered I'm a peach main), finding some way to modify melee to remove the random elements (Considering the SD Remix stuff that's being done and whatnot, I can't imagine that that would be impossible, but it raises problems of its own, notably a schism between competitive and "normal" play and a sort of violation of the game's sanctity that I imagine people will object to).

Discuss.

Also note that this is not an incredibly elaborate and subtle john for Hbox/PP's losses to armada, although I am unbelievably salty about the shyguy and the stitchface.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

ban peach

and battlefield only

the official MBR 2013 ruleset

 

[Ryobeat]

There will always be a hint of luck in every game, and melee doesnt have ALOT. I think its fine

 

[The Business]

I mean there are melee hacks where you can change stages and ****.

Like pokemon stadium never changing, greengreens being playable etc.

But trying to implement a hack for melee widespread at tournaments is totally unviable.

Best to just live with the current randomness of stages like Yoshis and the stupid fly guys.

 

[MasterShake]

Oh man.

The Stadium that doesn't transform is SO GOOD.

 

[Jockmaster]

It's practically impossible to remove all randomness and still have an enjoyable game

In the Pokemon meta, they did an experimnt where they removed all "hax" (aka luck) from the game. It was robotic and artificial feeling, so much so that it removed all of the original character of the game they came to love.

Basically it isn't smash anymore if you keep cutting away everything from it

 

[Dan Salvato]

If randomness was such a large issue then we wouldn't see the same top 8 players consistently winning tournaments around the world.

 

[Ripple]

the only rational decision is to make all of peach's turnips into stitches!

 

[Strong Badam]

The Turnip Threshold assumes that we as a community hold randomness within a character to the same standard as we do stages or that the ban criteria for each are at all similar, which is strictly false (sorry KishPrime <3). One does not "main" a stage in the same way that one "mains" a character, either.

 

[Life]

Hacking away the randomness would fail, as evidenced by how it hasn't happened in Brawl (which is much easier to hack than Melee and has a certain very obvious random factor that shall not be named here that we'd rather put up with).

The point of the turnip threshold is that it would be hypocritical to ban something under it without also banning Peach.

For reference, randomness is acceptable when:
1. It comes with sufficient warning so you can react to it in time (Stadium transformations)--something nonrandom is technically "infinite warning", if you want to think of it that way
2. Its effect is minimal (DL wind, FoD side platforms)
3. It's in some way controllable (character-based randomness--@SB I suppose this could be used to argue randomness as a counterpick quality, to a point--although I can't think of any specific examples)

There isn't an exact line or combination, but generally if it only violates one or two of them, and not severely, it's okay (randomness is major in Pokemon, but it's entirely the result of the players' choices and the turn-based nature means 1 is never a problem).

Also, "I caught the flu the day before the tournament and couldn't focus, I lost to luck"

 

[leffen]

I'm happy that people finally realize this, its something i've always complained on.

Its like on of Over's normal Sheik gimps: Bthrow/Fthrow, SH 1 needle. Completely random if it works or not, since the angle of the needle when you have only one can differ by a huge amount.



Anyway, luck will always be a factor anyway, and thats why you should always be vary of taking one tournaments results too seriously

 

[Hax]

the only "threshold" in terms of not banning a random factor should be: don't ban characters for random factors that don't completely ruin the game. the only reason i tolerate randomness there is because characters are the core of the game. banning a character is a big ****ing deal. i think we can all agree you don't ban characters because of turnips or judgment hammer

as far as stages go, even the slightest randomness should mean a ban. our only goal here should be to prioritize the better player winning. any fun lost by not having a different music/background is made up for by playing raw skills melee with no bull****

in game 1 of my set vs javi, on my 3rd stock, i'm shielding on the right side of the right DL64 platform and i try to wavedash oos, but the wind had JUST started blowing causing me to airdodge off the platform instead (it's hard to explain - you'll see what i mean when the vid goes up). i get shined offstage at 20%, and then luckily javi misses the edgeguard or else he would have taken my stock, probably won the game and the set too

when thousands of dollars are on the line that kind of **** is unacceptable

what happened to hbox was even worse. who knows if that cost him the tournament?

-

on top of Battlefield having no random factors, it's by far the least likely stage to massively benefit/hurt either player, making for the fairest matchups on average

the ONLY thing i think we'd lose with a Battlefield only ruleset are hype FD matches. in some matchups FD imo makes for a really interesting game of its own; way different than any other stage. the problem is FD REALLY breaks some matchups, and we can't make a list of matchups FD is legal in/not legal in. that's why i see FD as more of a friendlies stage (for the matchups it doesn't ruin)

#battlefieldonly

 

[leffen]

I can't help but laugh at the irony of Hax with a poker avatar preaching about how bad luck is



but honestly, I think Battlefield only should be tried out.

 

[EPsilon933]

There's a kind of a trick to pulling specials with Peach; pull a ****ton of them and something with turnip eventually

 

[ph00tbag]

Guilty Gear is better balanced than Melee. Guilty Gear has Faust.

Take from that what you will.

 

[t3h Icy]

On a slightly different topic, it would be interesting if someone found any RNG setups to always get a good Turnip pull or Judgement Hammer number, but I'm pretty sure it's totally impossible and unrealistic.

And I think Battlefield only is still a cool idea that should be tried out at least once.

Does anyone know if Fly Guys are actually random, or are they set like Randall?

 

[Europhoria]

Has anyone ever considered just making hacked melee standard where there's no wind, stadium never transforms, and there's no shy guys (but still Randall). In this ruleset we could even talk about making FD a counter-pick with Stadium as the 5th neutral.

>_> Like FC was able to run a Project M tournament and apparently it's being considered for G3 too as an event? (Although I don't know how many setups FC had for example) I just think at a tournament of 300 people we could scrap together the 40-50 wiis needed to make this possible.

Just please never BF only.

 

[leffen]

I have one of those melee hacks, Magus had done one.

its amaaazing

 

[S l o X]

battlefield only

sounds great

 

[oukd]

bf only wont happen because people will complain that the game gets too boring

should be tried out anyways

also hacked melee isn't conventional enough to become the standard

 

[Europhoria]

I'm sure a tournament can get 50ish hacked Wiis together. I'm not saying use the texture hacked versions cause I think those are annoying. This version has like 3 changes that I don't think anyone would be opposed to.

 

[leffen]

Can anyone really complain about:

No shyguys
No transformations
No wind

(randall is still in)


NONE of these changes take any adjustment to get used to, so honestly, is it just me that thinks its OK to use this for top 8 or w/e?

edit: I'm gonna talk to Armada/Lolex about using this for top8 or so at BEAST 3

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I think Battlefield only should be tried out.

luigis would love that lol

EDIT: THE **** LULEF, stop editing like a mofo,

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Randomness is a part of the game. It will always be a part of the game. There is literally no way to remove randomness from a game like Melee that focuses so hard on reading. Even if you're amazing at reading it's going to come down to whether you guessed right. Not to mention mango and his completely random techs.

Randall isn't random and you can even tell EXACTLY where he is by just looking at the clock. Dreamland wind and YS shy guys kind of suck, but in general they aren't that big of a deal. If you have a huge issue with them then strike the stage. That's why we have the stage striking system, so you don't have to deal with stuff you don't want to.
Unless it's a 3/5 game, if you get sent to a stage you don't like then it's because you let it happen. Don't go complaining about it IF YOU AGREED TO GO THERE.

 

[Wake]

Oh my god, I hate the wind, the fly guys, AND the transformations.

I've had the fly guys intercept turnips SO many times ugh.

 

[CanISmash]

why do we keep trying to treat smash like a 2d fighter on a fixed background where you can only move back and forth.

stages are part of the game.

rainbow cruise, brinstar, japes, and yoshis island (past stages) are all stages i just checked out with 0% randomness, no camera problems, no exploits but banned.

and we pamper top tiers because of matchups. if fox wasn't getting chaingrabbed on fd we wouldn't hear any issues about it.

 

[Zhea]

Most of the current stage list has to do with fox being to powerful on them. Shiek vs low tiers, low tiers vs fast fallers and some low tier markups have copious amounts of chain grabbing.

Currently project M is more access able then hacked melee and would have a better shot at being widespread. Just saying.

On a macro level these elements don't change the matchups too much.

However they can swing a set, and a lot of memorable sets feature a randal save or shyguys being shyguys.

When you get to a level of play where you think a stage gimmick is going to be the deciding factor. It's up to you and your opponent whether you want to pick a stage that has them.

 

[Biglard]

Oh my god, I hate the wind, the fly guys, AND the transformations.

I've had the fly guys intercept turnips SO many times ugh.

Did you already hit a shyguy with a stitchface?

I think it would be a very interesting example to analyze for this conversation about luck.

 

[EPsilon933]

bf only wont happen because people will complain that the game gets too boring

should be tried out anyways

Melee is a game about movement and different stages gives different flavors to the movement. Battlefield only isn't bad. It's certainly doable. It's just that 5 or 6 stages is better

also hacked melee isn't conventional enough to become the standard

Hacks aren't accessible enough to become the standard

Can anyone really complain about:

No shyguys
No transformations
No wind

(randall is still in)

And don't forget FOD's changing platform heights. They should stay at a set height. Maybe both below the main floor so this game doesn't have 4 pyramid platform designs?

NONE of these changes take any adjustment to get used to, so honestly, is it just me that thinks its OK to use this for top 8 or w/e?

Yeah. If there's at least 1 hacked Melee that can be put up on the main setup, this should be easily feasible for semi finals and finals

 

[Theftz22]

I've been making my hacked melee copy for months and I haven't put those hacks in so that I don't get used to playing on altered versions of the stages. If I burn a disc and then the community decides to standardize those hacks, imma be pissed.

 

[DerfMidWest]

rainbow cruise, brinstar, japes, and yoshis island (past stages) are all stages i just checked out with 0% randomness, no camera problems, no exploits but banned.

All of those stages are banned for legitimate reasons. Its not as much about the randomness as it is that some characters just break them (i.e. fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach, and Puff)

and we pamper top tiers because of matchups. if fox wasn't getting chaingrabbed on fd we wouldn't hear any issues about it.

Most stages in game are banned because the high tiers are broken on them.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Stages do not get banned to balance the cast.

 

[Life]

Stages should not get banned to balance the cast.

Fixed. They do anyway.

 

[EPsilon933]

Stages do not get banned to balance the cast.

The biggest reasons are because it's stupid to play on dumb stages

 

[rawrimamonster]

This is like my argument against the ***nado in 64's hyrule, both can be predicted (turnips within reasonability) but the outcome and pressure resulting from both is still there. Argument wont go nowhere because the smash community hates change.

/thread

 

[Hax]

what is this "luck is a part of the game" ****? that isn't an argument... you're telling me we can easily create a better competitive game but choose not to because "luck is part of the game?" (luck is almost a nonfactor in melee, btw, which is why this makes even less sense. the only RnG-based things that we ever see swaying matches are Peach turnips, and they don't sway matches nearly as much as the hazards we add on non-Battlefield stages)

same goes for "the best players still win." that doesn't matter either. with Battlefield only you ensure even further that the best players win. what if Apex was Hbox's tournament? what if the best player didn't win because of a Shy Guy?

i refuse to believe people who claim BF only would ruin their melee experience. people who say this lead me to believe the community is just scared of change. we're all several years into this game. we've seen every stage/heard every song hundreds of times. 8 years into melee, i don't experience even the slightest pleasure from seeing a different background or hearing a different song.

Spoiler

except for the Pokemon Stadium alternate music

to choose aesthetics > a game in which the better player is more likely to win is a disservice to competition

 

[Bones0]

I'm happy that people finally realize this, its something i've always complained on.

Its like on of Over's normal Sheik gimps: Bthrow/Fthrow, SH 1 needle. Completely random if it works or not, since the angle of the needle when you have only one can differ by a huge amount.

Wait, it randomly differs the angle it goes at? Is it some bug caused by only throwing 1 needle?

why do we keep trying to treat smash like a 2d fighter on a fixed background where you can only move back and forth.

stages are part of the game.

rainbow cruise, brinstar, japes, and yoshis island (past stages) are all stages i just checked out with 0% randomness, no camera problems, no exploits but banned.

and we pamper top tiers because of matchups. if fox wasn't getting chaingrabbed on fd we wouldn't hear any issues about it.

Playing in the bubbles could be considered an exploit on Rainbow Cruise. Brinstar's lava rises to random heights. Japes has a Klap Trap that randomly destroys people's hopes and dreams of getting off the ledges. Yoshi's Island 64 is exploited horribly by camping on the clouds.

i refuse to believe people who claim BF only would ruin their melee experience. people who say this lead me to believe the community is just scared of change. we're all several years into this game. we've seen every stage/heard every song hundreds of times. 8 years into melee, i don't experience even the slightest pleasure from seeing a different background or hearing a different song.

Spoiler

except for the Pokemon Stadium alternate music

to choose aesthetics > a game in which the better player is more likely to win is a disservice to competition

No one wants to keep other stages because of aesthetics. The whole reason people are scared about removing stages is because when you do, you are removing with it all the vast stage knowledge required to play well on it. You can't play the same on YS and DL as you can on BF, so if you remove them you are removing concepts of the game along with them. Having wind push people off plats 1 in a million times is annoying, but if it means players have to adapt every aspect of their character to that stage, then the skill gap is increased much more than the luck factor would remove. If DL played the same as BF except with wind, I would say ditch that **** in a heartbeat, but it doesn't, so to get rid of that stage would be a waste of quality game depth.

 

[bËst^]

I feel people get confused between luck based factors and and training and learning based factors

Like Rainbow Cruise for example: Wish someone explains to me, what is the random factor on that stage? Every platform stands there and reacts on players movement (like standing on one makes is falling down etc). Nothing happens due to pure randomness. Stage moving? it is always same movement with same speed. Nothing luck-based there. But usually Rainbow Cruise gets ***** because "it don't serve the purpose of best player winning the tournament". It is simply a stage, where anyone who spends time learning that stage can be victorious.

I see Rainbow cruise much more legit stage in terms of not having luck-factors than PS or YS for example. PS stage transforming is pure random. Sometimes it creates the rockfield like 5 times a row, and I bet I don't need to tell that can cause some serious powesswaps in the middle of the match. It is almost free time for timestallers, when they can force other player to battle in a narrow corner where chances getting punished rise exponentially. No need to mention, how much these stage transformations help fox to handle stage even better. Windmill causes some weird teches and soooo many time my edgeguard has get ruined because stage transforms and causes ground to shake, dust to blow and stages rising messing my edgeguard. All of that due to pure randomness. And still people are like "well, PS is strange but it can be a C-pick" and in terms of RC everyone are like "NOOO a moving stage is instantly unplayable".

Just wondering. I prefer RC as good stage, but overally the current stagelist seems fair enough and I enjoy it. Just confused about the reasons behind some stages getting favoured / punished due to anything but equal reasoning.

 

[leffen]

needles going in one of 5 directions is not a bug, its intended.

Just try it. Shoot full needles, jumping from one of the side DL platforms. Pause and watch how they land. Then do the same with one needle a couple of times. You'll notice that it lands in one of five positions.

When using this as an edgeguard to cover sweetspots its even more crucial. Sometimes it covers the edge, sometimes it just hits the floor.

 

[thespymachine]

I'm pretty much in agreement with everything Life, Hax, and Leffen have said.

For reference, randomness is acceptable when:
1. It comes with sufficient warning so you can react to it in time (Stadium transformations)--something nonrandom is technically "infinite warning", if you want to think of it that way
2. Its effect is minimal (DL wind, FoD side platforms)
3. It's in some way controllable (character-based randomness--@SB I suppose this could be used to argue randomness as a counterpick quality, to a point--although I can't think of any specific examples)

^In regards and addition to this^
I think, before we have a legitimate discussion on 'randomness' and its affect on Melee, we should be sure to define our terms.

There's a problem with applying the word 'random' to aspects like PS transformations, because they are very predictable. A better word for them would be 'chaotic.'
I would even go as far to say that all 'legal' things in Melee, atm, can be classified as either 'neutral' or 'chaotic.' And the chaotic things have two different factors: predictability (is it or is it not predictable) and degree of change (how drastically does the chaotic event change gameplay).
Examples:
Turnips - medium predictability (the fact the you can see Peach pull the turnip and part of playing the MU is keeping her from pulling turnips keeps it from being low); medium [?] degree of change (the MU demands knowing how to avoid turnips and preventing Peach from pulling them, but her three 'big' pulls change how the Peach plays the MU, sometimes significantly)
FlyGuys - medium predictability (you can see them coming, if the view is zoomed out, but when and where the come is unknown, from my understanding); low to medium degree of change (can drastically affect characters with projectiles, and messes with spacing/timing/zoning)

These can be argued, obviously. Just throwing out ideas.