The "turnip threshold"

[Bones0]

I feel people get confused between luck based factors and and training and learning based factors

Like Rainbow Cruise for example: Wish someone explains to me, what is the random factor on that stage? Every platform stands there and reacts on players movement (like standing on one makes is falling down etc). Nothing happens due to pure randomness. Stage moving? it is always same movement with same speed. Nothing luck-based there. But usually Rainbow Cruise gets ***** because "it don't serve the purpose of best player winning the tournament". It is simply a stage, where anyone who spends time learning that stage can be victorious.

I see Rainbow cruise much more legit stage in terms of not having luck-factors than PS or YS for example. PS stage transforming is pure random. Sometimes it creates the rockfield like 5 times a row, and I bet I don't need to tell that can cause some serious powesswaps in the middle of the match. It is almost free time for timestallers, when they can force other player to battle in a narrow corner where chances getting punished rise exponentially. No need to mention, how much these stage transformations help fox to handle stage even better. Windmill causes some weird teches and soooo many time my edgeguard has get ruined because stage transforms and causes ground to shake, dust to blow and stages rising messing my edgeguard. All of that due to pure randomness. And still people are like "well, PS is strange but it can be a C-pick" and in terms of RC everyone are like "NOOO a moving stage is instantly unplayable".

Just wondering. I prefer RC as good stage, but overally the current stagelist seems fair enough and I enjoy it. Just confused about the reasons behind some stages getting favoured / punished due to anything but equal reasoning.

The way I see RC is that it is a constant stage hazard. The player who is farther clockwise around the map than the other tends to have a very big advantage. This means that most of the game is played from a 70-30 advantage for one of the players, and a disadvantage for the other. This advantage isn't random by any means, but it is nonetheless unfair for the duration that the advantage exists. I don't mean to suggest that the stage is unfair because either player can gain control of the "front" of the stage's movement, but it's comparable to a football game where the team that gets scored on first only gets 3 downs for their next drive.

That's not necessarily unfair in a literal sense, but it creates a situation where skill is being determined by gameplay on a slant. One player is fighting against the odds while the other fights to keep the odds in his favor. There are plenty of games that use this system, but it tends to not suit fighting games well at all, and Melee is no exception. This sort of balance is pretty common in FPS games where one part of the map is better than the other, and the map isn't symmetrical. Asymmetrical maps in FPSes can be extremely skillful, but they are extremely hard to balance, so I find it hard to believe that RC just happens to fall within that well-balanced range.

tl;dr
Moving stages are asymmetrical, and limit one player's options while enhancing their opponents without the opponent having to earn said advantage through their own intelligent positioning.

needles going in one of 5 directions is not a bug, its intended.

Just try it. Shoot full needles, jumping from one of the side DL platforms. Pause and watch how they land. Then do the same with one needle a couple of times. You'll notice that it lands in one of five positions.

When using this as an edgeguard to cover sweetspots its even more crucial. Sometimes it covers the edge, sometimes it just hits the floor.

Ohhhh, I get it. I didn't know that's how needles worked, thanks.

 

[JPOBS]

Battlefield only.
M2k clause: if M2k is playing, he is allowed to counterpick FD.

This, IMO is this most balanced and hype stagelist.

 

[Gea]

Last time we had this thread, I believe Hax learned that Randall was on a timer and not random.

 

[Ripple]

The single needle thing doesn't seem right. I'm gonna test that in debug mode

 

[Battlecow]

The only people I really hate in this thread so far are the ones saying that "Randomness is part of the game, it would be bland and artificial without it."

Yeah, you've never enjoyed a non-peach matchup on BF or FD? Right. The game would be fine without randomness. The only thing missing would be the completely jank bull**** losses that we see handed out once in a great while by stitches and so forth.

I have to admit, I'm a fan of all the current legal stages except pokemon (and would be a fan of static pokemon). Hax, if there WERE a way of removing random elements from them all, would you play them?

 

[Gea]

Battlecow, how about addressing that counterpicking is a pretty interesting aspect to the game that adds to the depth of the game by changing matchups based upon stage. Where you go in a set is pretty damn important, and not because of wind/flyguys. Also why exclude stages besides BF that are not random in any way, shape, or form?

 

[Hax]

Last time we had this thread, I believe Hax learned that Randall was on a timer and not random.

i've always known that Randall runs on a timer. 99% sure what you incorrectly interpreted was me saying that despite Randall running on a timer, it makes for PSEUDO-randomness because we cannot possibly keep track of Randall's exact positioning at all times due to us not being computers

I have to admit, I'm a fan of all the current legal stages except pokemon (and would be a fan of static pokemon). Hax, if there WERE a way of removing random elements from them all, would you play them?

Pokemon Stadium in the neutral transformation is indeed the 2nd best stage in the game

as for Yoshi's, DL64, and FoD, the pseudo-random factors are only a part of why Battlefield >>> them

the other reason is that the sizes of these stages are highly likely to benefit one character over another, which doesn't make sense from a competitive standpoint either. why make a matchup 60-40 when it could've been 50-50 on Battlefield? what good does that do?

in addition to having no random factors, Battlefield is also the optimal stage in terms of width/height/everything. neutral Pokemon Stadium is great, but it's a bit too wide, and i really feel that the top platform is a core part of the game, which it lacks. Battlefield is the best

 

[ajp_anton]

The single needle thing doesn't seem right. I'm gonna test that in debug mode

Already done. It was a royal pain to TAS Sheik's BtT stage because of it.

If you throw many needles, you can easily see that they are slightly spread out. This is caused by every single needle having its own random direction, not because of a predetermined list of angles.


edit:
Randall is fixed relative to the clock, but it's random relative to the game. When someone decides to knock someone off-stage, they don't really take into account where Randall is. If you have the chance to knock them out, you take it.
And as a Luigi main, BF is my worst stage of all neutrals.

 

[Gea]

i've always known that Randall runs on a timer.

I went back and checked. You are correct, you were not the person. I apologize.

Anyways, we had this thread not that long ago in regards to the stagelist. And another one not that long before that.

 

[leffen]

YS is just a ****ty stage because of randall and the cloud

sloped stage is also bad imo

 

[Landry]

Randall is the cloud...

Anyway, I'm typically in favor of keeping stages around but I think Hax has made some pretty salient points regarding BF only.

I dunno, its tough to decide, though.. I kinda think switching to just BF, YS and DL as the only neutrals would be better than BF only. Deciding to use only one stage seems pretty weird just because it eliminates stage choice which is one of the most unique aspects of the game.

 

[bËst^]

having BF only might be "fairest" at some level... but it surely kills a lot variety from the game :/.

 

[CanISmash]

Wait, it randomly differs the angle it goes at? Is it some bug caused by only throwing 1 needle?



Playing in the bubbles could be considered an exploit on Rainbow Cruise. Brinstar's lava rises to random heights. Japes has a Klap Trap that randomly destroys people's hopes and dreams of getting off the ledges. Yoshi's Island 64 is exploited horribly by camping on the clouds.

who cares about camping on the clouds? why does this matter? you can't stay on the clouds forever. everyone has an equal opportunity to get on it, etc. the bubble is part of the stage, and every character can play in the "bubble" and kill someone like 70% sooner. japes klap trap is timed. brinstar i'm ehhh on because randomly levels yes, but you know when it is rising, and you know the top platform is always safe.

 

[Biglard]

Mmh, I think I read something on the boards, from somebody who figured out a pattern for the lava, but I'm not quite sure...

 

[Gea]

You also take % while in the bubble and good luck staying there the entire match. No one has proven it to be a dominate strategy, people wanted cruise banned because they didn't like playing there/ thought ____ character was too good. Brinstar was the same stupid way, people were complaining hard about free wins with jiggs/peach on brinstar/mute way, way more than anything about the acid or the cars.

Platform placement and blastzones affect the turnout of matches in a much more significant manner than whispy's wind, flyguys, etc. It's only when the hazards make more of an impact on game turnout than the layout itself that stages used to be banned. Corneria survived a long, long time under this idea until finally it was taken away, but more due to blastzones and the fin and people not liking to play there than the arwings.

Despite the fact that stage list is not supposed to come down to character balance or arbitrary things like how fun a stage is for the majority to play on, ultimately the rules are made and enforced by the playerbase itself. Different regions hold different values, with EC probably being the most liberal with bans and the midwest of course being infamous for larger stage lists.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Actually that is false about maiming stages. I main ys. Bring me there. Also dreamlands wind is not random at all

 

[ShroudedOne]

At this point, I have no real attachment to the stages in this game. The only downside (besides tournament sets being a lot more dull for some people) would be that the super restrictive stagelist would probably turn away potential new players, and maybe turn away some of the ones we have now.

We might as well try it. There's nothing wrong with the idea.

EDIT: I feel like RC and Japes are better stages than people give them credit for, but whatever.

 

[Bones0]

who cares about camping on the clouds? why does this matter? you can't stay on the clouds forever. everyone has an equal opportunity to get on it, etc. the bubble is part of the stage, and every character can play in the "bubble" and kill someone like 70% sooner. japes klap trap is timed. brinstar i'm ehhh on because randomly levels yes, but you know when it is rising, and you know the top platform is always safe.

You can camp the cloud and make it disappear as your opponent jumps out to hit you and they are dead... These are classic '02 tactics you should have discovered with your friends. Not to mention a significant portion of the cast can't even make it out to the far one at all without significantly compromising themselves to the person waiting on it. How is a Yoshi or DK supposed to approach a Peach camping the far cloud? You don't have to stay on the clouds forever either. Just until they get timed out.

The problem with the bubble isn't so much that you can kill people faster, but that there is no depth perception so you can't space properly at all. Even if it's not a dominant strategy, it's still a pretty glaring issue that people face whenever an opponent ends up tech rolling into the bubble or just lagging behind the stage.

Japes Klap Trap is not timed at all. GTFO

Okay, so half the time you give up center stage for no reason, and half the time you get burned through the ground without being able to tell and potentially lose your stock...

Mmh, I think I read something on the boards, from somebody who figured out a pattern for the lava, but I'm not quite sure...

There is indeed a timed pattern for the general pattern of the lava, but there are different sub-variations as to how high each "surge" goes. Sometimes it burns you through the platform, and sometimes it doesn't.

You also take % while in the bubble and good luck staying there the entire match. No one has proven it to be a dominate strategy, people wanted cruise banned because they didn't like playing there/ thought ____ character was too good. Brinstar was the same stupid way, people were complaining hard about free wins with jiggs/peach on brinstar/mute way, way more than anything about the acid or the cars.

Platform placement and blastzones affect the turnout of matches in a much more significant manner than whispy's wind, flyguys, etc. It's only when the hazards make more of an impact on game turnout than the layout itself that stages used to be banned. Corneria survived a long, long time under this idea until finally it was taken away, but more due to blastzones and the fin and people not liking to play there than the arwings.

Despite the fact that stage list is not supposed to come down to character balance or arbitrary things like how fun a stage is for the majority to play on, ultimately the rules are made and enforced by the playerbase itself. Different regions hold different values, with EC probably being the most liberal with bans and the midwest of course being infamous for larger stage lists.

Addressed bubbles above.

I think the Arwings are pretty bad, but I would consider the "cave of life" gameplay that is encouraged is also bad enough to warrant a ban.

I like the regional differences even if it means sometimes having to deal with dumb stages. I am really happy with the current ruleset outside of DSR, but I would still attend tournaments with more counterpicks available or a new/archaic stage ban process.

 

[Gea]

Bones, you just got Japes and Kongo Jungle mixed up. Japes is on the timer.

 

[Bones0]

Bones, you just got Japes and Kongo Jungle mixed up. Japes is on the timer.

Kongo Jungle: Klap Trap and barrel are random
Kongo Jungle 64: barrel is random
Jungle Japes: Klap Trap is random

If I'm mistaken, I'd love to see what times the Klap Trap comes by each time. It's within a 15 second range or something ridiculous iirc, but definitely random.

 

[Ripple]

Klap trap is on a 10 second timer. completely non-random


every 7 and 4 on the timer are when you are most likely to get hit

 

[Gea]

Klap trap is on a 10 second timer. completely non-random


every 7 and 4 on the timer are when you are most likely to get hit

This. Bones, you should know better.

 

[Bones0]

Hanging on the left ledge of the center plat:
[Trial 1]
4:52
4:37
4:26
4:17
4:03
3:50
3:40
3:32
3:23
3:15

[Trial 2]
4:50
4:37
4:20
4:09
3:55


Yeah, not even continuing this. You guys are dumb.

 

[Ripple]

oh....maybe in brawl it was normalized then...

 

[Bones0]

That'll teach you to look to barlw for solutions. It has the tendency to... trip people up.

 

[Life]

Obligatory "that is really dumb" post

 

[Europhoria]

stuff

What about match ups that battlefield imbalances? The Ice Climbers can't reach the top platform with their DJ. This is very exploitable for some characters. Not everyone plays a faster faller with amazing vertical movement and control.

 

[TheGoat]

That'll teach you to look to barlw for solutions. It has the tendency to... trip people up.

Obligatory "that is really dumb" post

But it was genius

 

[The Star King]

Isn't Dreamland wind not random?

 

[Life]

Was referring to Japes, not the joke

From playing the game, I was under the impression that dreamland wind was on a timer but random direction, but I could be completely wrong as I haven't seen it brought up.

 

[Biglard]

I think that if the two players are on one side of Dreamland, the wind will blow in their direction every time.

 

[Bones0]

The direction is based on which side players are on (not sure about specifics), but the timing is random.

 

[Life]

Well huh. I suppose I need to pay more attention.

 

[Divinokage]

having BF only might be "fairest" at some level... but it surely kills a lot variety from the game :/.

I would not play smash if it was BF only.. it'll get stale ****ing fast. Sacrificing fun and variety for fairness doesn't seem like it would be worth it in the end. What we have now is just enough to keep it interesting.

 

[Scar]

^on the topic of stages, i don't see why we can't have some sort of compromise on this issue built into the rules

stage strike + 1 ban is a super beautiful solution, especially if you can't pick a stage you already picked (unless both players agree).

and i would never ban a character ever, although I like leffen's idea about artificially removing RnG mechanics in top 8, or whatever the tournament scale allows

 

[onionchowder]

Random Elements in Competitive Games

I am not strongly for or against such random elements. However, I think that the pro-random case needs some support, so I’m playing Devil’s Advocate here.

The reasons below do not apply to all random elements. Most random elements are terribly designed and do not contribute meaningfully to gameplay (e.g. G+W’s Judgement). However, I believe that some random elements are be good for competitive play, principally for the following 2 reasons.

1) An additional dimension to Risk/Reward Analysis
Pokemon is a great example of this. Many types have a weaker 100% accuracy move and a stronger 85% accuracy move. (e.g. Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Surf/Hydro Pump). Fire Blast lands one-hit KOs on more pokemon, but Flamethrower won't whiff and leave you vulnerable. This offers a trade-off between power and reliability, which creates meaningful decisions for the player.

NOTE: Prevalence of risky attacks increases the chance of comebacks, making the game state more dynamic and volatile (which can be good or bad). This sort of risk works well in a turn-based strategy game (e.g. Pokemon). In real-time games, this risk exists in the form of tech-skill flubs, mis-micro, etc.

2) Equilibrium disruption
Game Theory claims that symmetric scenarios often lead to degenerate strategies. More simply, mirror matchups are janky because both players have similar options. We see this in Melee (notably Puff dittos and Spacies dittos), as well as Starcraft II* and other competitive games. Sometimes, this leads to stall-y play, which we don’t like.
* ZvZ and PvP are notably unstable matchups that often involve crazy all-ins or macro cheese

In the event of a stall, random elements can give one player a temporary advantage, incentivizing aggression. For example, suppose Peach A and Peach B are camping each other, and Peach A plucks a stitchface. Peach A currently has an advantage. If Peach A continues to camp, Peach B will have time to pluck a stitchface too, and Peach A’s advantage will be lost. Thus, Peach A has more reason to play aggressively now that an imbalance is created. Items On also has a similar effect.

NOTE: Equilibrium disruption does not need to be random! Cyclic or predictable stage elements (e.g. Randall, Brinstar’s Lava, Rainbow Cruise) may create opportunities for aggression.

 

[KishPrime]

I still see randomness as a part of Smash like I see randomness as a part of poker. It is a part of the design for its depth. Randomness in a game is not a disservice to players in any way. Sometimes it is simply a part of a game. Randomness allows players to make risk/reward judgments, which are, in fact, a testable skill. Nor does the presence of randomness make a game "less of a game."

Risk/Reward is just a skill that you cannot master in the same way you can master a wavedash, which is frustrating to many of the types of people who still play Melee. It's logical that people, like those remaining in this community who put in many hours with an emphasis on honing their technical craft, would prefer to display these skills without "interference" from the game. However, that is an argument from self-interest rather than any kind of valid game-theory reasoning. Melee has been proven to be perfectly solid as a tournament game with more stage variety and random elements - there is substantive evidence for its consistency of results despite any of these factors.

Can you take out even the most minuscule random elements? Sure, in the same way that you can pick time over stock, or any other rules decision. Is it an improvement to the game to do so? I think that would be a stretch. It's getting to the point where you might as well start arguing over whether the game would be better if you reduced Fox's upsmash power by 10% or 12%, for all of the impact that change would have. You're also basically selling out risk/reward as something that people here have just decided "we don't want that in our game." That's fine to do in the context of a independent, isolated community...but it's not thematically or rationally consistent in the context of the game of Smash Brothers. But here we are, in an independent, isolated community...so go for it.

And that's all I'll post. You guys have your fun.

EDIT: Whoops left this out - the Turnip Threshold was simply my theory for the basis of a ruleset with internal rational consistency, one which attempted to preserve as much of the original game as possible by setting up a randomness cutoff line that pretty much all tournament players accept, and refusing to reject any random elements that are less disruptive than that.

 

[Theftz22]

I don't remember who suggested it, but I always favored the idea of playing out the whole set on the stage you strike to.

 

[thespymachine]

NOTE: Equilibrium disruption does not need to be random! Cyclic or predictable stage elements (e.g. Randall, Brinstar’s Lava, Rainbow Cruise) may create opportunities for aggression.

Loved the whole post, but this really stuck out to me.

Risk/Reward is just a skill that you cannot master in the same way you can master a wavedash, which is frustrating to many of the types of people who still play Melee. It's logical that people, like those remaining in this community who put many hours with an emphasis on honing their technical craft, would prefer to display these skills without "interference" from the game. However, that is an argument from self-interest rather than any kind of valid game-theory reasoning. Melee has been proven to be perfectly solid as a tournament game with more stage variety and random elements - there is substantive evidence for its consistency of results despite any of these factors.

Appraisal/Valuation, a very important skill. Up there with Yomi and Adaptability.
And you're right about the community focusing on techskill, since that's the easiest to grasp when they see top players.
If anything, that's the value of Brawl - that lack of techskill needed puts nearly everyone on a similar dexterity threshold, and thus nearly everyone has to focus on more abstract aspects like Valuation, Yomi, and Adaptability.

Now, don't get me wrong, techskill is a valuable skill, but forgetting about it would help people play 'better.' And I do think techskill is a needed element that makes fighting games distinct from - and better than - other mental games like Chess and Go.

I don't remember who suggested it, but I always favored the idea of playing out the whole set on the stage you strike to.

I really like that idea, especially if there was a sort of 'couterpick' element to it. Eg, the loser of the game could say not to play on the stage again, but when they do that, the winner gets a extra 'ban' on top of their strikes - then they would have to choose characters and strike again. Actually, I don't know about that. lol
Stage striking for every game would be cool though, if all legal stages were strikeable.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

i've always known that Randall runs on a timer. 99% sure what you incorrectly interpreted was me saying that despite Randall running on a timer, it makes for PSEUDO-randomness because we cannot possibly keep track of Randall's exact positioning at all times due to us not being computers

It's definitely possible to keep track of the cloud, at least at key points. It's not like you have to grind through the RNG algorithm. You don't have to be a computer, although you may have to be a musician.

The issue is that people feel like it should be standard to be negligent towards timer specifics in Yoshi's Story since it is not necessary to take it into consideration in other stages that lack time-dependent specifics. It itches when people call the position of an object random when its position is linearly related to time.

the other reason is that the sizes of these stages are highly likely to benefit one character over another, which doesn't make sense from a competitive standpoint either. why make a matchup 60-40 when it could've been 50-50 on Battlefield? what good does that do?

in addition to having no random factors, Battlefield is also the optimal stage in terms of width/height/everything. neutral Pokemon Stadium is great, but it's a bit too wide, and i really feel that the top platform is a core part of the game, which it lacks. Battlefield is the best

If counterpicking a stage from 50-50 to 60-40 doesn't make any competitive sense, then neither does counterpicking a character from a 50-50 matchup to a 60-40 matchup. The point of being to counterpick stages is that so that the match-up has some malleability within the limits of a character.

If your reasoning is that people ought to have the most balanced match-up at all times, then from your reasoning follows that each specific character match-ups should be confined to the stages with the most balanced match-ups, which aren't always Battlefield. For instance, Marth vs YL should always take place in Dreamland 64, and such; any other stages that change the match-up weights would not make any competitive sense.


Battlefield is probably the most viable neutral stage in the game, but calling it always ideal is too arbitrary.