"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[adumbrodeus]

That's all well and good theoretically, Adumbrodeous, but in practice that's not how matches go down. The reason the matchup is by no means 20-80 comes down to RANGE and PRESSURE, and more specifically, the relationship between the two. Yes, as you exhaustively explained, Marth can out space Ganon with his poking, and can punish well when Ganondorf approaches. Theoretically, Marth should be able to space himself in a way that Ganon never gets at him, and if he DOES, then he can punish. Frame data says all of this is true. The thing is, Marth has no way of FORCING Ganon to approach. His RANGE is not great enough to space himself safely spaced from Ganon and still turn on the heat.

Now hold your horses, don't start typing your reply just yet; I'm not saying what you probably think I'm saying. What I mean to say is, his advantage in range via approaching pokes is not great enough to keep Ganon far enough at bay to keep him from being very dangerous. That is, essentially, Marth doesn't have a projectile to literally force Ganon to make a move or just endure spam (DDD), and neither has the speed advantage to force Ganon to make a sloppy move (MK). Ganon can remain safely outside of Marth's range while still throwing out bait which sets him up for follow-ups which exceed Marth's range. This is exactly how I play this match at tournament level.

Actually, that's what pokes are.

They're a tool to force a predictable response, similar to a projectile. You see, for Marth the idea is not so much that he wants to simply keep you at poke range, he wants to use safe pokes to force you to commit to an approach.

It's the same as with an actual projectile, you use it to apply pressure, hopefully get some damage, but the main thing that it actually accomplishes is decides who needs to approach. Marth mimics that in effect by walking into shield-poking range and walling you with a combination of well-spaced fairs, nair, ftilts, and dtilts.

He has no barriers to obtaining that range, and the only way you can break it is by approaching him or falling back (which he can follow obviously, further limiting your options). So, what do you have to do to deal with his shield pressure? Same as with a projectile user, try to get a spacing that is more advantageous for you, by approaching. And it's not like that spacing is just bad for Ganondorf, it's positively horrible, because Marth has 4 poking options, one of which is a kill move. Sure, any spacing further away is totally neutral, but realistically, that fact doesn't change much.

On paper, Marth swamps this poor dude, but in practice, it's an entirely different beast. Marth can sit there and poke all day, but I'm not going to be in range, so it doesn't matter. He can punish me with quick moves OoS, but I'm not going to approach cavalierly, so it likewise doesn't matter. I will entirely agree that Marth has the advantage in this match-up, but it's not 20-80 because Martha just can't put on the pressure. Ganon and he are both waiting for the other character to come within range or make a mistake, and that is why on-paper advantages like slightly out-ranging Ganon or 0 frame dolphin slash don't allow Marth all the advantages in practice that you suggest they do on paper.

I think you're misunderstanding, you won't be going into poking range, HE'LL be moving into poking range and there's nothing you can do to stop him. Heck, even projectile users like Falco don't provide a reliable defense on Marth getting that spacing and abusing it, that's why Marth v. Falco is a 60-40 marth. Does Ganondorf have anything at all to stop Marth from getting that spacing? (I hope that you recognize that is a rhetorical question)


Let me explain how the match develops at the top of the metagame.


Match starts:


A. Marth tries to advances to poking range.

Your options:

1. Retreat: Marth continues advancing, repeat question A, with less room.
2. Jump over him: he initiates juggle trap.
3. Let him: advance to B.


B. Marth gets into poking range

Your options:

1. Shield/spotdodge/airdodge/etc.: Repeat decision B, unless he dtilted, in which case you'll either be grabbed, eat dancing blade, or repeat decision B depending on your reaction.
2. retreat: Marth moves forward again, and resumes poking. Repeat decision B with less room.
3. Jump over Marth: Marth's juggle trap is beat, an awful idea.
4. Approach: You better predict him throwing out a move perfectly because if you don't, you touch shield and you're eating either dancing blade or Dolphin Slash.


Obviously this is a bit of a simplification, and some stages will hinder that pattern and some creative spacing and zoning will be done but because Marth holds the range advantage, this is the standard development of the match-up.

Platforms in general are just a repeat of B.3 btw, you don't want to be on a platform in this match-up.


Really that's the main thing, Marth approaches into poke range and he suddenly has a tremendous advantage. Since Ganondorf is virtually defenseless at that range, he can delay the inevitable by defending or retreating, he can ask for a juggle trap, or he can approach. Realistically the most viable option for Ganondorf is approaching, and hoping for the best. The problem is that he doesn't have anything safe against Marth, so it's a horrible horrible situation to be forced into.


Again, it's like the Ganondorf versus Captain Falcon match-up, with Marth being Ganondorf and Ganondorf being Captain Falcon. The difference is that Marth can poke considerably better then Ganondorf could. His punishment options are also MUCH more effective.

The match-up develops the same, but Marth is just better at it, that's why he wins by a MUCH wider margin then Ganondorf does in the same position.

Feel free to disagree, of course. Closing: it's insulting to suggest that Marth is a harder matchup than DDD at tournament level play. It's just...SO wrong. I'm not sure I'd disagree with people if they suggested that DDD (or falco, for that matter) was 90-10.

That's why I said possibly. Really, I know DDD is difficult, but I don't know DDD personally well enough to feel truly confident in analyzing the match-up, as such I said "maybe". Notice I didn't participate much in the DDD discussion.

Marth and Ganondorf however, my main and my most played secondary, I know both characters like the back of my hand. As such, I am very very confident in this analysis, not only because the raw data is there, but I've just played on both sides of this match-up so many times that personal experience allows me to confirm the match-up.


If DDD is in fact harder then Marth, I would not consider a 90-10 unwarranted. I of course, have plenty of DDD horror stories, but as far as frame data and the like I am far more ignorant of DDD then Marth or Ganondorf.

Marth vs Ganon isn't 80/20. This is why.

http://nicozon.blog64.fc2.com/?video_id=sm5044061

Also, I will add, I'm pretty sure your D-tilt outranges DB and his D-tilt, so if you space well, try to catch him off guard on the last hit and own him.

You have to bait for an opening, but fortunately, Marth is weak from below, so once you get a hit, you have opportunities to follow up.

It does, but it's not safe on block. You dtilt on Marth and Marth will punish you for it on reaction because Marth's punishing moves come out too fast.

And that Marth is playing stupidly, he's not camping properly, HE DASH ATTACKS FOR GOD'S SAKE. And he friking rolled into a warlock Punch, AFTER IT STARTED! And how many dairs did he get hit by?

No, it's the Marth player, not the match-up. He's making MASSIVE mistakes.

 

[Swoops]

Question adumbrodeus, I don't have a complete understanding of frame data, but wouldn't a -22 frame advantage allow for a shield drop+d-tilt on Ganon's part? (just went through all of marth's frame data )

If that's so then Marth's only reliable poke that wont have him punished is d-tilt. Marth has good spacing tools there's no doubt, but we can still reach pretty far with d-tilt, jab, DA, and wizkick...3 of them being reliable options that have just as much priority and clank with your sword. Marth has to be extremely careful with any aerial option too, as Ganon can punish him pretty well with u-airs, and wizkick if Marth is retreating or further away while advancing. A lot of times, even a good marth has to watch his aerial approach game very well, and be very precise with his spacing. Seeing as how a marth will use aerial approaching as his entry tool into poking range, it presents a bit of a problem for him. Ganon has pretty good anti-air defense.

We can limit your options at poking range about as well as you can limit ours.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm very sure that Ganon has worse matchups than Marth. If I had to pick three characters that were 80/20 matchups or worse against Ganon, Marth wouldn't be one of them. Marth instead would be a 75/25, about the same difficulty as ZSS.

Marth isn't THAT bad because he doesn't projectile camp, and his combos aren't good enough for this matchup. It IS true Ganon has to take a lot of risks in order to do anything in this matchup, but that is pretty much true in general in ANY of Ganon's matchups actually. =P

I mean, yeah. Marth has great defensive tools. You CAN punish stuff like F-air walls with well timed Dash attacks. DB is shieldgrabbable (just get close enough to him when he starts it up and wait for him to push himself into your shield). D-tilt can be used to punish some of his ground attacks on reaction.

Btw, as of now, I feel Ganon's three hardest matchups in this order are ICs, Sheik, and Falco. And yes, I'm quite certain Sheik is harder than Falco, and I'd really like to give my input on this matchup sometime.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Question adumbrodeus, I don't have a complete understanding of frame data, but wouldn't a -22 frame advantage allow for a shield drop+d-tilt on Ganon's part? (just went through all of marth's frame data )

Properly spaced, no. Ftilt's shield pushback gets you out of range, that negates the 12 frames you have to react.

Fair and nair both have more effective range then dtilt (just move back more after you've done the move).

If that's so then Marth's only reliable poke that wont have him punished is d-tilt. Marth has good spacing tools there's no doubt, but we can still reach pretty far with d-tilt, jab, DA, and wizkick...3 of them being reliable options that have just as much priority and clank with your sword. Marth has to be extremely careful with any aerial option too, as Ganon can punish him pretty well with u-airs, and wizkick if Marth is retreating or further away while advancing. A lot of times, even a good marth has to watch his aerial approach game very well, and be very precise with his spacing. Seeing as how a marth will use aerial approaching as his entry tool into poking range, it presents a bit of a problem for him. Ganon has pretty good anti-air defense.

We can limit your options at poking range about as well as you can limit ours.

The poke is answered above.

Wiz-kick and Dash attack are obviously both options, BUT neither of them are reliable punishers for Marth's poke game, it's dependent on predicting what Marth will do, ex. fastfall, double-fair, etc.

You predict wrong, you get shielded, run into a fair, etc. Since he has more options here, he's got a definite advantage here.

And an Marth's superb punishing game comes into play.

As for Ganondorf's anti-air, he's great again enemies above him, but doesn't really have great tools against short-hopped approaches.

 

[Blad01]

G&W is my easier Top Tier match-up with Ganon. (ROb being the second one).

He's so easy to kill... And our anti-air arsenal pretty much kill his approach : SH Reversed Uair i sso good against him.

Just always DI in a upper-corner, pay attention to his Bair (Shield all, and push shield down to block the last hit), his key, and his smashes.
Once you've understood how G&W work, i think it's pretty simple to handle him : Uair to prevent him from atacking by the air, the when he's on the ground Gerudo follows-ups, DTilt, Dair/uair combos...
And finish him with a Dair / DTilt / Fair / Dash Attack. Dair, DTilt and Dash Attack can be done out of Gerudo... Just choose the move you've kept fresh ^^

40:60 in my opinion and from my experience. Actually i'm pretty 50-50 with the G&W i play, but nevermind

 

[DRaGZ]

to me, G&W is the most satisfying character to Murder Choke. I dunno why.

Other than that, you can both kill each other pretty quickly, so it seems to be a matter of better spacing, of which Game and Watch has decidedly better options. However, Ganondorf can kill G&W at like...what...60% off of a grounded d-air? So yeah, it pretty much evens out.

 

[Swoops]

Properly spaced, no. Ftilt's shield pushback gets you out of range, that negates the 12 frames you have to react.

Fair and nair both have more effective range then dtilt (just move back more after you've done the move).

F-tilt has enough shield push back to make d-tilt whiff? I seriously doubt that considering that d-tilt has more range than marth's f-tilt in the first place. Plus, even with pushback, DA should hit no problem. But your saying that marth's sword pokes have enough pushback to offset moves like d-tilt, DA, jab, and d-smash? Pokes as a general rule have virtually no pushback, especially in brawl.

Obviously f-air and n-air trump d-tilt, that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that d-tilt out of shielded f-tilt can limit Marth's options very well.

Wiz-kick and Dash attack are obviously both options, BUT neither of them are reliable punishers for Marth's poke game, it's dependent on predicting what Marth will do, ex. fastfall, double-fair, etc.

You predict wrong, you get shielded, run into a fair, etc. Since he has more options here, he's got a definite advantage here.

And an Marth's superb punishing game comes into play.

As for Ganondorf's anti-air, he's great again enemies above him, but doesn't really have great tools against short-hopped approaches.

Since when did I say wizkick should be used against ground poking? Wizkick is for aerial opponents who are slighty far away from the reaches of normal aerials, and retreating aerials. It's priority might suck, but wizkick has a great hitbox that punishes aerial opponents coming down. I never said it was amazing, just that it limits Marth's options even more.

DA is great against marth's poking game. It has enough priority to clank and cancel most of Marth's attacks, while having more or just about the same range as them. Say your at Marth's ideal poking range, you jump in the air to f-air, and Ganon dash attacks...he either hits you or he goes right under you...a very tight spot for Marth. Same thing with u-air. Same thing with f-tilt in most cases, except we can out space you with a properly timed DA. Or we can just shield and get a free attack. The most unsafe situation for Ganon's DA is either on shield, or if it's stupidly timed or spaced.

What makes Marth's punishing game so much better than Ganon's? At least off of one of our d-tilts we have some pretty nasty traps and options. We get d-tilts, DAs, and in most cases jabs and d-smashes out of a shielded f-tilt. What do you have out of a shielded d-tilt? F-tilt, jab, grab...certainly not f-smash or an aerial. Dancing Blade and Dolphin Slash are probably the best punishers you have. One racks up some damage, and the other kills at decent percents assuming you haven't used it a lot. I'm not saying marth's punishing game is bad...just that you shouldn't be so quick to judge that Ganon's can't punish marth just as well.

Ganondorf has fantastic anti-air even against short hops. U-air does kill f-air with proper spacing...hell, our f-air straight up ***** yours with spacing. Wizkick is still a good anti-SH move, DA, and jab and f-tilt are on lower characters or ones just coming out of jump. U-air is probably our best anti-SH...one of the only ones we need.

Of course we need to work a little harder than marth with our spacing, but that's because spacing is a little easier for Marth considering that's always what his play style is about. But just because Ganon has to work a little harder does not mean he can't play on Marth's level. I think that's what makes it definitely less than 20-80. Ganon can play within Marth's range very, very well with a bit of work, but you do have to work a little harder...making it withing the 40-60, 30-70 range.

EDIT: I know...we should probably stop discussing a character that has yet to be even discussed in this thread but...hell, at least kalm has material to gather.

G&W....DI teh tertle?

 

[-Mars-]

Btw, as of now, I feel Ganon's three hardest matchups in this order are ICs, Sheik, and Falco. And yes, I'm quite certain Sheik is harder than Falco, and I'd really like to give my input on this matchup sometime.

Playing Sheik is never fun with Ganondorf, Falco has a 40% chaingrab on you while we, in theory, have around a 70% chaingrab on you. I know you guys aren't discussing the matchup right now, but I would love to help out with any discussion in the future. As of right now i'm going to lurk as I try to get my Ganon to worthy status.

Also for the record, Marth can cancel his DB at anytime he chooses............so it really can't be shield grabbed by Ganon.

 

[Swoops]

Also for the record, Marth can cancel his DB at anytime he chooses............so it really can't be shield grabbed by Ganon.

Except that canceling DB also has noticeable, probably even punishable, lag.

 

[-Mars-]

Not really, if he hit your shield with DB your going to be sitting in your shield when he cancels. No player in their right mind is going to not be trying to shield the duration of DB. You might be able to punish with dtilt or Wizkick if you predict he is going to cancel, which is unlikely.

 

[Swoops]

True, but at close range, you do get shield grab if he tries to cancel.

 

[A2ZOMG]

OMG GAME AND WATCH!

Okay, this matchup is 6/4 G&W's favor. No more. No less.

This is easily one of Ganondorf's best matchups against the top tier cast. Why? It's because you have RIDICULOUS combos on him. If he messes up his spacing even slightly, you have an opportunity to combo him to hell. D-air setups can take him from 0-60 in a matter of seconds if you read him right. Flame Choke COMBOS are guarenteed 20% on him at ALL percents, not to mention if you save your D-tilt or F-tilt, it can KILL HIM!

Now, the reason why Ganondorf doesn't win the matchup is because ultimately, if he knows how to space turtles, you can't get close to him. They beat all of your approaches. His D-tilt is also good at stopping approaches, but if he starts spamming D-tilt, just D-tilt him, because it will beat his D-tilt. G&W's D-air edgeguard by all practical means is impossible to avoid offstage.

F-smash is great in this matchup because it KOs him super early, like at 60-70% lol. And it has slightly more range than his other attacks. F-air is also a great KO move on him at 80-90% because of the range it has. You can punish his D-tilt spam with F-air.

All in all, not a terrible matchup. A G&W who doesn't know this matchup can be easily destroyed if you can pick on his spacing mistakes.

Ask me more questions on this matchup. =)

 

[adumbrodeus]

G&W.

Realistically there's one main question here, does anything have high enough priority to go through the turtle (or outranges the turtle?), or just totally miss the turtle's hitbox?

Unfortunately, I'm not too familiar with G&W, but if we have something that we can at least do on prediction against the turtle it really helps the match-up, since it's what really defines the match-up.


I'll agree with A2ZOMG if we do, if we don't, then I'd say 65-35.

F-tilt has enough shield push back to make d-tilt whiff? I seriously doubt that considering that d-tilt has more range than marth's f-tilt in the first place. Plus, even with pushback, DA should hit no problem. But your saying that marth's sword pokes have enough pushback to offset moves like d-tilt, DA, jab, and d-smash? Pokes as a general rule have virtually no pushback, especially in brawl.

Obviously f-air and n-air trump d-tilt, that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that d-tilt out of shielded f-tilt can limit Marth's options very well.

Only ftilt.

Ftilt is mad weird because it's got really good pushback and that's what really makes it safe on block. For the same reason, if it gets spot-dodged, you're in trouble.

By the time you can reset and dtilt or dash in and dash attack, Marth's shield is already up.

Really, I don't think you're that familar with Marth's moveset, I'm only refering to them as pokes because they're his "safe on block" moves. Nothing to do with any other factors.

Since when did I say wizkick should be used against ground poking? Wizkick is for aerial opponents who are slighty far away from the reaches of normal aerials, and retreating aerials. It's priority might suck, but wizkick has a great hitbox that punishes aerial opponents coming down. I never said it was amazing, just that it limits Marth's options even more.

I'm quite familar with wizkick dude, but when I said poke game I was INCLUDING his aerial pokes, I never specified ground pokes.

Because Marth's aerials end before he hits the ground from short-hop he has plenty of options to mix up his air game including double fair, double jump, aerial dancing blade, etc, and properly spaced, it just doesn't reach marth fast enough.

DA is great against marth's poking game. It has enough priority to clank and cancel most of Marth's attacks, while having more or just about the same range as them. Say your at Marth's ideal poking range, you jump in the air to f-air, and Ganon dash attacks...he either hits you or he goes right under you...a very tight spot for Marth. Same thing with u-air. Same thing with f-tilt in most cases, except we can out space you with a properly timed DA. Or we can just shield and get a free attack. The most unsafe situation for Ganon's DA is either on shield, or if it's stupidly timed or spaced.

First, Dash attacking after ftilt. The shield-pushback is too signifigant, before you're in range and dash attack comes out, Marth can shield.


As for Dash attack against fair, yes, that is one of Ganondorf's options. But the point which I've been hammering away at this entire time is that you have to predict the fair in order to do that. If you predict wrong, then you're in a really bad position.

What makes Marth's punishing game so much better than Ganon's? At least off of one of our d-tilts we have some pretty nasty traps and options. We get d-tilts, DAs, and in most cases jabs and d-smashes out of a shielded f-tilt. What do you have out of a shielded d-tilt? F-tilt, jab, grab...certainly not f-smash or an aerial. Dancing Blade and Dolphin Slash are probably the best punishers you have. One racks up some damage, and the other kills at decent percents assuming you haven't used it a lot. I'm not saying marth's punishing game is bad...just that you shouldn't be so quick to judge that Ganon's can't punish marth just as well.

Dude... the reason why Ganon's punishing game isn't anywhere near as good as Marth's is simple, it doesn't come out fast enough.

That's what make's Marth's punishing game literally the best in the game. It's frame 4 dancing blade and frame 0 dolphin slash. Those two attacks are by far the two best punishing moves in the game.

Compare to Ganon, his fastest ground punishing option is 10 frames (three-way tie between dtilt, ftilt, and dash attack). The significance of these frames are extraordinary, because suddenly many many more moves become punishable by these two moves.

Ganondorf on the other hand, with his significantly slower punishers, is too often shielded, and then punished for his punishers if he attempts to punish what Marth tries to punish.

With Dolphin slash, Marth can punish anything that he isn't in continuous hitstun with including jab combos that hit him, chaingrabs, anything that touches his shield.

Dancing blade on the other hand, is safer, but it doesn't have the frame 0 activation. It's better for set-ups and building damage, but frame 4 makes it have an insanely early hitbox.

And that's all Marth needs to have the best punishing game in the game.


As for dtilt, off of block, well off of anything that's not predicted, it's a frametrap, blocking it leads to a grab, spot-dodging or rolling towards him leads to a dancing blade, and rolling away resets the trap. It's awesome.

Ganondorf has fantastic anti-air even against short hops. U-air does kill f-air with proper spacing...hell, our f-air straight up ***** yours with spacing. Wizkick is still a good anti-SH move, DA, and jab and f-tilt are on lower characters or ones just coming out of jump. U-air is probably our best anti-SH...one of the only ones we need.

Yeah, uair is nice. But like all these options, it still has the problem of a need to predict Marth before he actually does it. In this case, it really means putting yourself in the air before you know Marth will. If he doesn't use an aerial, or chooses not to do anything at that particular moment, you're in trouble.

Fair is very punishable. As in tippered f-smash punishable. It also is VERY telegraphed (16 frames, ****). I'd actually avoid using fair as much as possible in this match-up because a wiffed or shielded fair is one of the worst possible positions to be in.

Wizkick is a bit slow for this, to use it effectively requires prediction as well.

Of course we need to work a little harder than marth with our spacing, but that's because spacing is a little easier for Marth considering that's always what his play style is about. But just because Ganon has to work a little harder does not mean he can't play on Marth's level. I think that's what makes it definitely less than 20-80. Ganon can play within Marth's range very, very well with a bit of work, but you do have to work a little harder...making it withing the 40-60, 30-70 range.

I understand what you're saying, but realistically, at the top of the metagame, Ganondorf effectively starts at a very disadvantaged position, and he has to win a mind-game that is very heavily weighed against him to get inside Marth.

Sure he can do stuff once he actually gets inside Marth, otherwise it would be even worse, but getting there is such a chore this match-up doesn't deserve anything less.

Of course, if the Marth plays predictably then it magically becomes a hundred times easier. That doesn't mean the match-up isn't a horrible chore to fight.

True, but at close range, you do get shield grab if he tries to cancel.

Which shouldn't happen if the Marth is competent, ever.

Actually, dancing blade hitting shield AT ALL is not something that should happen at the top of the metagame unless it's finished with a down combo for shield stabbing. It's a punisher, you only use it when your opponent is in cooldown, he has so many better options in neutral state.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Mr.Game and Watch, probably our easiest match, out of the 6 top tiers.

We have all 3 options on him, after Gerudo. Gerudo to DTilt does 21% damage and we could keep Dtilting away for 12% damage each hit, I don't think he could hit us after the first D-Tilt, so we're free to Dtilt away.. Gerudo to FTilt can KO him around 90% near the edge. 1 stomp does 1/3 of the percentage we need to KO him. Gerudo and Stomps won't be as easy as they sound to get on him, but they're hell of a lot effective.

That's probably the only thing that gives Mr.Game and Watch the advantage, how easily he could stop our stomps and gerudos. That, and his B-air.

F-air is a awesome approach in this match-up, learned that from fighting A2Zomg. If you predict his b-air, and avoid the first bit of it, F-airing right then is slow enough to avoid the last couple of hits and then hit him.

We could KO him around 65-75%, but so can he, maybe not that early but, close to that.

I'd say around 60-40 or 55-45 in Mr.Game and Watch's favour.

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W.

Realistically there's one main question here, does anything have high enough priority to go through the turtle (or outranges the turtle?), or just totally miss the turtle's hitbox?

Unfortunately, I'm not too familiar with G&W, but if we have something that we can at least do on prediction against the turtle it really helps the match-up, since it's what really defines the match-up.


I'll agree with A2ZOMG if we do, if we don't, then I'd say 65-35.

F-tilt with precise timing trades hits with the B-air.

F-air slightly outranges the B-air and D-tilt, one of the big reasons why G&W has to have better than usual spacing to win this matchup.

U-air I think has more range than any of G&W's attacks, but the hitbox is situational, and doesn't work against his D-air 90% of the time which outprioritizes it.

D-tilt outranges ALL of G&W's attacks.

F-smash is **** against his B-air with the right spacing.

It is also possible to shield all of the hits and Up-B him out of shield.

If you can stay close to G&W, jab outspeeds his back air and has pretty good range, snuffing it before it comes out.

What usually works better is punishing the LANDING LAG of the B-air with a Flame Choke.

If you don't believe yet that this matchup is Ganon's best matchup against top tier characters, just watch this vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PccEQMQAMVo

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Compare to Ganon, his fastest ground punishing option is 10 frames (three-way tie between dtilt, ftilt, and dash attack). The significance of these frames are extraordinary, because suddenly many many more moves become punishable by these two moves.

Actually his fastest ground move is the Jab, it comes out on Frame 8. His fastest move period are the NAir and UAir which both come out on Frame 7, just thought I'd throw that out. In fact its the main reason I prefer using BAir and NAir against Marth since really if you pull either of them correctly there should be no real cooldown lag to speak of.

 

[-Mars-]

Actually his fastest ground move is the Jab, it comes out on Frame 8. His fastest move period are the NAir and UAir which both come out on Frame 7, just thought I'd throw that out. In fact its the main reason I prefer using BAir and NAir against Marth since really if you pull either of them correctly there should be no real cooldown lag to speak of.

He was referring to his punishing options. Jab won't have the range to punish anything Marth does if he's properly spaced.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Actually his fastest ground move is the Jab, it comes out on Frame 8. His fastest move period are the NAir and UAir which both come out on Frame 7, just thought I'd throw that out. In fact its the main reason I prefer using BAir and NAir against Marth since really if you pull either of them correctly there should be no real cooldown lag to speak of.

He was referring to his punishing options. Jab won't have the range to punish anything Marth does if he's properly spaced.

Actually, I did forget it... :embarrass I can't believe I did that, after all the playtime I'm spent on Ganondorf, forgetting to mention Jab which is frame 8... I guess i've got to be Gannon-banned for that. I was referring to Ganon's overall punishing game, not just in this match-up.


Anyway, that is a fair point, characters will rarely need to space themselves so they're actually IN jab range, which really does limit it as a punishment option. Especially since it's not disjointed.

As for Uair and Nair, as far as punishment goes, they're not great simply because it takes several frames of jumping before you can use them.

Don't get me wrong, Uair is a great move all-around, and if you're already in the air, it works wonders for punishing, but grounded it's just not fast enough to be a great punishing move. It's reasonable for the purpose, but needs too many frames to be exceptional.



Provided they're not shielded, bair and nair are great aerial options, they are useful in this match-up. But dolphin slash OOS still deals with both when shielded, so you better be sure he won't shield them.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Provided they're not shielded, bair and nair are great aerial options, they are useful in this match-up. But dolphin slash OOS still deals with both when shielded, so you better be sure he won't shield them.

Bair in my opinion is fantastic in this matchup, as its the only move Ganon has that has a realistic threat against Marth's FAir spammage in speed and knockback.

NAir I tend to use more aggressive defensively in a psuedo wall of pain style rather than a real attack. The fact NAir has a decent reach, can be done twice before landing with no lag. Optionally it can be timed so that the second hitbox comes out as you land makes it a safer option than any type of ground options Ganny can do.

Quite frankly with all of Marth's OOS options warding off Marth is more important than thinking about how to punish him.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda vs. Ganondorf. I'm very familiar with this matchup and I do well with it and yet, I rarely play it.... why? because pressing down+B essentially gives me a free win. I really don't want to bash ganondorf, but against an experienced sheik, he has to rely on sheik LETTING him win to be able to stand a chance. it's highly possible for sheik to 3 stock ganondorf despite having the worst weight/size ratio in the game.


if I choose to stay zelda though, I still have the advantage. While sacrificing the ability to gimp and sombo the hell out of him as well as needle/chain camp him till the cows come home, we become much scarrier to approach.

Unless ganondorf sucsessfully tricks zelda, he has Zero safe approaches against her... and he WILL approach because he's one of the charcters she can actually use Din's against safely.

Most of his attacks are just going to get plain outprioritized by Fsmash or Usmash depending on where he is (yes, Usmash beats out dair and down+B) his plame choke doesn't have the range to compete with zelda and anytime he dodges to get close to her, she's got multiple options to outspeed him and shake him off. And if he hits her sheild, he's one of the characters slow enough that sheild grabs are going to be almost always effective for zelda... makes the tradeoff of speed for reach a good choice in for once, makes it harder to push her away.

Oh and you're also massive. we'll probably be landing lighting kicks reliably.

your recovery isn't great... making a Dsmash from us fatal.

ganon's tend to think they are safe from below because of their dair and down+B, but Zelda's Utilt, UAir and Usmash well clank or outprioritize, and are all massively good against him (uair will never clank. always outprioritizes and generally kills because of its massive power and range) Usmash can kill at moderate damage and can chain at lower damage. it'll chain even better if you DI out of it because ganon's too big to DI out low. Utilt kills at lowish damage.

no matter what position you are in relation to zelda, she has a move to beat yours and it's probably strong enough to kill at mid-high damages.

what you got going for you then? Zelda has a TERRIBLE weight/size ratio. only Sheik is worse IIRC, so ganon can kill zelda at low damages if he connects enough.

Zelda isn't as agile as some other characters, so she's not always going to be able to punish you like some quicker characters can.

it's still a big upward battle for ganon, prepare to try to fight through a sparkly wall before you get a chance to injur the princess. You don't have to get in much, but she'll make it hard to get in enough to rack up damage OR KO.

recomendation for Zelda alone is 65:35 her favour. Add sheik or go sheil alone and it's at least 80:20.

 

[GodAtHand]

eep,

I see Ganon's using their side B quite a bit. Zeldas Fsmash is pretty quick and he can't go through that so it makes that option pretty much useless.

uhh... I don't even know what else to say that dawg didn't already. Ganon = at least 60-40 Zelda.

 

[Kataefi]

I see this is as 70:30 personally for me. I'm quite comfortable fighting a ganon but I can't help but feel a little on edge because I know he has some great attacks going for him.

The only problem he has is landing those attacks on her. This is a match in which he'll be approaching a lot and when he gets close, DSmash, Nayru's, FSmash, even Jab, knock him out of range where he'll have to approach again.

He can't go aerial because it's been tested that both his down b and Dair are beaten by her Usmash and uair, (though his down b is harder to time for zelda).

Approaching constantly after a barrage of din's and LKs, only to probably have his approach shielded or knocked back will wear him out thin and bring us the advantages we need to handle him.

He just has a really hard time approaching, a really hard time competing with her range and priority and a really hard time getting up close and personal with her only to be knocked right away after.

I also FW to reset my spacing. I can FW safely away from him as his very slow movement wise. DSmash destroys his recovery, LKs finish him off around 100%-wise when fresh and later on from there, and we'll be landing them more because of his size.

I'm saying 70:30.

I havn't really used Sheik all that well, so I can't really say a lot that hasn't already been stated. The duo together do even better, because Ganon simply hasn't got the speed to chase them. Sheik for damage and Zelda for the kill is as standard, I'd say 80:20, but both do fantastic against him anyways without changing.

^^ I hope that helps in anyway. Let me know if I've got anything wrong!

 

[TP]

To everyone who just posted: Ganon does not use the Flame Choke to approach. Also, concerning range, I'd be surprised if any of your ground moves reached farther than Ganon's Dtilt (I could be wrong). This match is not 70:30, though it is not even.

Of course, Zelda has a 0-death combo on Ganon that is only one move long.... Down B.

 

[Kataefi]

Nope she outranges his down tilt unfortunately with the last hit of FSmash, which is the strongest hit =(

 

[DRaGZ]

Nope she outranges his down tilt unfortunately with the last hit of FSmash, which is the strongest hit =(

But isn't d-tilt faster anyway?

This is like how people on the R.O.B. boards argued for a while that d-tilt was useless because d-smash eventually reaches the d-tilt range anyway. Obviously, speed was the factor, not overall range.

 

[Kataefi]

Ah I see, how many frames is ganon's dtilt?

Her's is 16 frames. If it's lower than that then I guess it's simply speed versus range. Though, his dtilt is a singular hit and can be spotdodged, whereas she has a lingering hitbox that is slightly harder to avoid.

Ganon needs to be in range first to get the hit with that speed, which means within that type of range he'll be contending with Nayru's and Dsmash, which both come out on frame 4.

EDIT:: Also... I just tested both moves actually and found they have around equal range. It's really odd as to who gets the hit in, as when they do it at the same time, sometimes Zelda wins, sometimes ganon wins. Is his dtilt disjointed in some way?

If ganon is going to get a dtilt in, he's going to have to space himself pretty **** well after all a barrage of din's and yet he'll still have her FSmash to contend with. He's got it rough being the one who has to approach and then get knocked away.

Also, DSmash and Dtilt clank with it, despite being outranged.

 

[Snowstalker]

Can we discuss Yoshi next, so that I can give a huge rant about how hard Yoshi ***** Ganon? 75-25 IMO.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Can we discuss Yoshi next, so that I can give a huge rant about how hard Yoshi ***** Ganon? 75-25 IMO.

And that's why your O doesn't count.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda is 65/35.

She outcamps you...which DOES suck. Don't get me wrong though, Din's Fire alone doesn't kill you in this matchup. No, that's actually perhaps the least threatening of her commonly used tricks really. You can clash with it with attacks pretty laglessly.

You have slightly more range on a few attacks, and about the same KO power. And you have a safer aerial game. Zelda however has better out of shield options IMO. And a somewhat better recovery that can be hard to hit with your aerials. I mean, a usable shieldgrab srsly. Her D-smash and D-tilt ****. Up-tilt kills earlier than Snake's.

You have to bait a lot in this matchup. And you can't throw out too many attacks randomly because she can F-smash your foot when you D-tilt, and it sucks. Flame Choke and especially Dash attack are essential for punishing the lag on some of her attacks.

In all honesty, the biggest threat in this matchup is Down-B. I'm not kidding. A Sheik that knows what it's doing shuts down Ganondorf completely as far as I can see. This is the matchup we should actually be discussing.

But in short, Zelda wins the matchup due to having superior defensive options, better priority on attacks, and a **** D-smash.

Okay and as for Yoshi, it's obvious he ***** Ganon. Grab release chaingrab. Without it however he goes close to even with Ganon.

 

[Snowstalker]

My rant:

Okay, Yoshi is just the kind that kills Ganon easily. Egg Throw does 8 or 9% (I don't quite remeber exactly), and because Ganon's a big target, he eats those eggs up. Now, Yoshi will go in for a pivot grab, grab releasing the living crap out of you until he decides to kill you with an usmash or fair spike. Yoshi has speed, agility, a projectile, and epic chaingrab to usmash or fair spike. Ganon hits like a bus full of fat people, which won't be that much of a help when you're being bombarded by eggs or being chewed up. Trust me, one of those things will almost always be happening. Oh, and Yoshi's recovery is actually hard to gimp.

75:25 Yoshi. Without grabs and eggs, 55:45 Yoshi.

 

[SaltyKracka]

My rant:

Okay, Yoshi is just the kind that kills Ganon easily. Egg Throw does 8 or 9% (I don't quite remeber exactly), and because Ganon's a big target, he eats those eggs up. Now, Yoshi will go in for a pivot grab, grab releasing the living crap out of you until he decides to kill you with an usmash or fair spike. Yoshi has speed, agility, a projectile, and epic chaingrab to usmash or fair spike. Ganon hits like a bus full of fat people, which won't be that much of a help when you're being bombarded by eggs or being chewed up. Trust me, one of those things will almost always be happening. Oh, and Yoshi's recovery is actually hard to gimp.

75:25 Yoshi. Without grabs and eggs, 55:45 Yoshi.

Mmmmhmmmm. No. Battefield, Lylat, and Delfino just completely changed this matchup. Oh, and Yoshi's eggs aren't that good of a projectile.

And on another note, have you bothered to read the title? If you had, and hadn't acted like an idiot, you'd have noticed that this is, ATM, the Zelda discussion. Not the Yoshi discussion, not the "omgchaingrabsequalinstawin" discussion, the Zelda discussion. Now shut up for the moment.

 

[Snowstalker]

Okay.

10yoshirapesganons

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay.

10yoshirapesganons

Shut up. Seems like to me, nothing goes in that thick skull of yours.

Yoshi has advantage over Ganon, this is news how? So does the rest of the cast.

 

[Serph]

What kind of moron comes barging into a thread demanding to have his say in a discussion which isn't even happening yet? Unless you're here to talk about the the current match-up, kindly GTFO and wait your turn.

 

[Gleam]

Shut up. Seems like to me, nothing goes in that thick skull of yours.

Yoshi has advantage over Ganon, this is news how? So does most of the cast.

Fixed.

Sorry but I refuse to believe that Falcon is superior to us, or that Ganon doesn't have any neutral match ups.

 

[:034:]

I think someone is butthurt about Ganondorf being a much better, stronger and much more manlier character than a certain dinosaur...

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Fixed.

Sorry but I refuse to believe that Falcon is superior to us, or that Ganon doesn't have any neutral match ups.

I refuse to acknowledge Falcon is on even ground with us also Snake being a complete hard counter.

I mean according to the current rankings Metaknight = Pit < Marth and I know Pit has far more ways to slaughter Ganon than Metaknight does. Heck Ganny can clank or override a few of Meta's moves and has a guaranteed early kill.

But its what the majority and results say.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

It's really odd as to who gets the hit in, as when they do it at the same time, sometimes Zelda wins, sometimes ganon wins. Is his dtilt disjointed in some way?

I think that Zelda's f-smash's hitbox places change a little, sometimes being a bit higher and sometimes lower. I haven't tested this enough yet to be 100 % sure, but it would explain many things (including this).


I don't think that Zelda alone actually has total advantage over Ganon. Ganon who's good at reading opponents and thus getting hits in kills Zelda ridiculously early. He also has good U-smash and Uair for teasing Zelda when she's above him (while often FW gets her away from such situation).

The reason why Zelda has the advantage is that she is very hard to approach, which is exactly what Ganon needs to do in this match. He also has hard time pulling off spikes or Ganoncides. It doesn't hurt his game dramatically, but certainly doesn't help him either.

Ganon also has hard time to DI away from her smashes, is big target for lighting kicks and is vulnerable to spikes. What he has on his side is ability to punish hard, when Zelda fails to hit him.
If it's only Zelda vs Ganon, I'd say 65:35.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yoshi vs Ganon.

Egg spam is the last thing you need to worry about. Except for the fact it makes you approach.

What really frustrates Ganon in this matchup is the fact Yoshi is in the air a lot. Meaning Ganon can't exactly rely on out of shield tactics as much as he would like. Instead, Ganon needs to play a more aerial based game. Well-timed SH U-airs allow him to compete with Yoshi in the air.

Thunderstorm isn't as good here because of Yoshi's air game, and his ground game occasionally ducks under your stomps.

Up-B edgeguard is good against Yoshi since it both can grab him out of his jump and does not return it back.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

just going to throw in that, while some of ganon's hits outrange some of ours, we have a lot of disjoints. that normally means that, if they meet. we win.

I think ganon has an awful awful time with zelda. But I think the fact that he kills her so early REALLY helps him... like to the point of preventing a hard counter.

65:35 seems good MAYBE 70:30, but no worse